Circular Arguments: "I am your mate" | Topic 2

[Grey Kitty]

Btw when I told my SO that the only way we are going to resolve this argument is if he gets a divorce he said "I see no point in talking until then".

What am I supposed to say to that?

That sounds like the silent treatment to me.

Do you mean that is him threatening the silent treatment for you while he's working on his divorce?

Pardon me if I'm out of line here... .but the way you described talking to him / video chatting with him / etc. in the prior post, it sounds like you would be RELIEVED not to hear from him for a few days, at least!

You could spend that time and energy on your daughter!

Mod Note: This post was split from Circular Arguments: "I am your mate"

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

You could spend that time and energy on your daughter!

[unicorn2014]

Hi Grey Kitty and Form Flier, he is actually helping my daughter with her homework.


I am spending time and energy on my daughter. She's been home from school for a week with a very bad case of poison oak and I have been nursing her around the clock as well as taking her to the doctor.


I think I figured out what I need to do. I need to tell his father how I feel about being in a relationship with him while he is not yet divorced. That is what triggered me this morning. He told me something his father said that really made me mad. I want his father to know that I did not choose to be in a relationship with a married man. I overreacted to something he told me his father said. I will simply write a letter to his father tell him how I feel and feel better.

 

[myself]

It's changing from a circle to a triangle... .

[unicorn2014]

Myself, that is nothing new. He's the one who told me what his dad said, I'm not the one who asked him what his dad said. He's the one that called me to tell me his dad called him a second time. I'm not responsible for that. He did that, not me. Perhaps I should write about his triangulation next. I'm not the one who created the triangle.

[Grey Kitty]

I think I figured out what I need to do. I need to tell his father how I feel about being in a relationship with him while he is not yet divorced. That is what triggered me this morning. He told me something his father said that really made me mad. I want his father to know that I did not choose to be in a relationship with a married man. I overreacted to something he told me his father said. I will simply write a letter to his father tell him how I feel and feel better.

I think that writing a letter to his father is an excellent idea. (And if you do, feel free to post it here for discussion purposes--that sort of letter can be a really good way to sort out your feelings, and think about what actions to take.)

HOWEVER, I suspect that actually sending the letter is a terrible idea.

A conversation between your bf and his father really isn't your business.

Telling his father that the reason you are involved with his son is because his son deceived you about being married seems like a bad idea--I cannot imagine a good outcome from that. if his father believes you, he may get mad at his son, and make drama there, which you will (legitimately) be blamed on. He might also wonder why you are making such a big deal about it when you stayed in his son's life after finding out he's still married. He may not believe you anyway.

I'd respect a father who took the side of his son over his son's fairly recent girlfriend, in general. Perhaps he knows that his son can be a real jerk sometimes?

... .more importantly, why are you mad at his father instead of your bf? Your bf decided to tell you about this conversation, and ir probably wasn't your business anyway. Your bf decided to bring you into the middle of this and stir up trouble.

Myself, that is nothing new. He's the one who told me what his dad said, I'm not the one who asked him what his dad said. He's the one that called me to tell me his dad called him a second time. I'm not responsible for that. He did that, not me. Perhaps I should write about his triangulation next. I'm not the one who created the triangle.

You didn't create the triangle... .however I think that contacting his father will likely be participating in it.

[unicorn2014]

I'm not mad at his father. I am mad at my fiancé. I'll consider what you're saying. His father was actually telling him he is ok with our relationship. I'm not ok with our relationship. His father knows I am his fiancé and not his girlfriend .

[formflier]

 

Many things in our lives are not created by us.

We still have a choice to participate in them or not.

Many things get said to us without us asking.  Except for very short things... .we generally have a choice to listen or not.

Especially once we train our ear to listen for things that are none of our business

So, while the traingle and the conversation were not your "fault"... .I believe in both cases you have a choice available to you that removes you from both of them.


FF

[unicorn2014]

  Ok, FF, I'll bite. What choice is that? How do I train my ear? I'm all ears!

/

My SO is mad at me for telling him not to tell him about what his father said to him and for telling him he objectifies me .

[Grey Kitty]

His father knows I am his fiancé and not his girlfriend .

I apologize if I mistakenly called him your boyfriend earlier--I wasn't trying to make a point, or anything; I simply didn't check how you described it.

However, now that I'm thinking about it, perhaps you should reconsider that definition yourself?

He is still married. Does he have any kind of legal separation or other formal stuff done with his wife yet?

Did he give you a ring?

Do you have a wedding date?

[unicorn2014]

He gave me a ring.

No legal separation .

No wedding date.

Now he's mad at me .

[Grey Kitty]

Can you just let him be mad at you? (Without needing to do anything about it)

[unicorn2014]

Grey Kitty, now he's telling me "you broke it, you fix it". He's doing everything but working on his divorce.

His most recent text to me that I have not replied to



"Ignoring facts to make your point is not reasonable nor is it irrational. It makes me wonder who is talking to me.

If you call me back and want to connect to me I expect you to reasonable, warm and respectful"

I hung up on him because he called me irrational. I asked him politely to not call me irrational and that was he response.

Previously he had texted this:

"That was completely uncalled for

I want to know you ignore facts you clearly are aware of and then come at me like that.

You hung on me

Fine


If you call me back and want to connect to me I expect you to reasonable and warm and respectful

###

Again you hang up

After yesterday you have the nerve to talk about insults?

I am not calling back

You broke it

You fix it

###"



(yesterday I had told him sometimes  I feel like he treats me like a lonely child's comfort object)

What am I supposed to do with that?

I had told him two weeks ago we were supposed to meet to go over his divorce and since I couldn't because my daughter got poison oak and he was under a work deadline I asked him to write me a couple of paragraphs along with some documents. He never got it to me. Two weeks ago he was (supposedly) ready to go.

I really don't know what to do here.

It takes a lot of energy to keep a LDR going.

He wants to talk about my daughter's homework and how much he enjoyed helping her.

Then when I tell him what I need him from is his escrow papers and divorce decree, that's what I'm looking for him, that's what I want to hear about, he starts getting defensive.

[formflier]

Ok, FF, I'll bite. What choice is that? How do I train my ear? I'm all ears!

/

My SO is mad at me for telling him not to tell him about what his father said to him and for telling him he objectifies me .

When someone else wants to involve you in their relationship with a third party (in this case father and son)... .my hope is that your alarm bells should start going off.  That voice should be saying "this MAY be none of my business".

If this type of thing is a recurring issue (which it seems to be in your r/s)... .then that alarm might want to be calibrated to jump straight to this is none of my business.


Generally best to identify if there is a healthy role you can play in those conversations and either play that role or politely back out of that conversation.

Choices

Even though "someone else started it... .or did it" doesn't mean you have to go along with it.  You still have a choice.

Saying you have to do something because "they did it" removes power from you and hands it to them. 

Generally a not so good way to go about life.  Doubly not a good idea if the person getting the power displays traits of BPD.

FF

[formflier]

  He's doing everything but working on his divorce.

Yep... .exactly.  He has made that choice... .and made it very obvious.

You have a choice to continue things as they have been going or perhaps change the way you go about the relationship.


FF

[unicorn2014]

Ok, FF, I'll bite. What choice is that? How do I train my ear? I'm all ears!

/

My SO is mad at me for telling him not to tell him about what his father said to him and for telling him he objectifies me .

When someone else wants to involve you in their relationship with a third party (in this case father and son)... .my hope is that your alarm bells should start going off.  That voice should be saying "this MAY be none of my business".

If this type of thing is a recurring issue (which it seems to be in your r/s)... .then that alarm might want to be calibrated to jump straight to this is none of my business.


Generally best to identify if there is a healthy role you can play in those conversations and either play that role or politely back out of that conversation.

Choices

Even though "someone else started it... .or did it" doesn't mean you have to go along with it.  You still have a choice.

Saying you have to do something because "they did it" removes power from you and hands it to them. 

Generally a not so good way to go about life.  Doubly not a good idea if the person getting the power displays traits of BPD.

FF

My pwBPD thinks its positive that he's involving me with his dad. He was estranged from his dad until last week, and when I sent his parents a card his dad called his wife to ask who I was. His dad also sent me a card which was very positive.

The thing I am mad about is my pwBPD told me his dad said we are all sinners and that is why I am angry. I wanted to make sure that his dad knew that I did not choose to be in a relationship with a married man. My pwBPD said his dad knew that he deceived me in the beginning of the r/s. His dad on the other hand is forgiving and ok with our relationship. I am the one who is mad.

I told my pwBPD that I did not want to hear about his conversation with his dad. He told me he is trying to bring me in. He thinks what he is doing is positive.

Part of the problem with my r/s is that initially it started out with him having power over me, I alluded to this before, there was a D/s dynamic in it. Then when I discovered his BPD traits made that unsafe I axed that part of the r/s.

[unicorn2014]

  He's doing everything but working on his divorce.

Yep... .exactly.  He has made that choice... .and made it very obvious.

You have a choice to continue things as they have been going or perhaps change the way you go about the relationship.


FF

I am trying. It says on his calendar that he is pulling things for me regarding his divorce. I am sick of having to nag him about this. It makes me feel bad. I'm also sick of not having documentation about his divorce. That also makes me feel bad. Its kind of like a no win situation. I don't know how to change the way I go about the r/s.

[formflier]

I told my pwBPD that I did not want to hear about his conversation with his dad. He told me he is trying to bring me in. He thinks what he is doing is positive.

You have discovered and are experiencing why it is LESS important to focus on what we "tell" a pwBPD traits and more important to focus on what we do.

So... you tell him you don't want to hear the conversation.

He ignores you and keeps on going.

You end the conversation... .

Next day... .if he tries to bring you in again... .you take same action.

You are in charge of what you hear and participate in. 

FF

[formflier]

  I am sick of having to nag him about this. It makes me feel bad.

So... .take a deep breath.

Has nagging him worked? 

Do you "have to" nag him?

Think about my comments above about pwBPD traits will focus more on what you do than on what you say.

If you take that as a truth... .a "rule" for dealing with pwBPD traits.  Then what is a better option than nagging?

FF

[unicorn2014]

I told my pwBPD that I did not want to hear about his conversation with his dad. He told me he is trying to bring me in. He thinks what he is doing is positive.

You have discovered and are experiencing why it is LESS important to focus on what we "tell" a pwBPD traits and more important to focus on what we do.

So... you tell him you don't want to hear the conversation.

He ignores you and keeps on going.

You end the conversation... .

Next day... .if he tries to bring you in again... .you take same action.

You are in charge of what you hear and participate in.  

FF

So normal people listen to what you tell them, right?

The problem with his dad was yesterday, today its him calling me abusive for being angry... . 

I've hung up on him two or three times today for calling me abusive. I will not listen to that. He keeps sending me texts. I won't read them because I find them inflammatory. I call him and ask him what he said to me in a text.

His accusations of abuse are crazy.

And no, nagging does not work.

I do not know what to do. I'm upset with him because his divorce wasn't filed. Two weeks ago we were supposed to meet to go over this. I had to postpone due to my daughter's affliction and his work so I asked him to prepare a statement and some documents. He still hasn't shown it to me but supposedly he's working on it right now.

I told him this morning that I think he lied to me two weeks ago because it should have been ready to go.

I asked him how he had all this free time to keep calling me up. He said he didn't. I'm sick of him telling me I'm abusive. I'm tired of him telling me "I broke this". I told him I didn't break anything, he did, I'm just dealing with it.

Oh and when I said I hung up on him for calling me irrational he said he didn't remember calling me that but he was sorry if he did. That is totally crazy.

[formflier]

The thing I am mad about is my pwBPD told me his dad said we are all sinners and that is why I am angry. I wanted to make sure that his dad knew that I did not choose to be in a relationship with a married man.  

I'm a bit confused here.

You are choosing to be in a relationship with a married man... .correct?  I understand the story about how he answered a question oddly about if he was married.

Was your purpose of communicating with the father to expose the son's deception?

Boy... this is messy and confusing.  Again... .I believe this highlights importance of keeping relationship issues between the two people actually involved in the relationship.

So... .dad and son keep their issues and discussions between themselves.

You and fiancee keep your discussions between yourselves.

FF

[formflier]

So normal people listen to what you tell them, right?

Depends on what you tell them.  I would say they will usually listen.  If it is a request they may or may not honor it.

I've hung up on him two or three times today for calling me abusive. 

Do you think you would be better off with less phone calls... .less contact.

So... when you make a decision to hang up on him... .wait until the next day to resume contact.  If he is abusive or contrary then... .wait two days.

Right now... the hangups just mean he has to wait a little while... until next phone call.  I suspect he has not fully calmed and soothed himself and sort of picks up where he left off.

FF

[unicorn2014]

FF I did not talk to the dad. I was saying that's what I wanted the dad to know. I'm choosing not to leave a legally married but physically separated man, yes, because I already accepted his marriage proposal before I even met him. Crazy.

[unicorn2014]

FF he actually sent me a text to propose we not talk for the rest of the day

"You know perhaps we should not talk any more today

Your hanging up on me over and over just keeps opening up the drama from yesterday. "



He's blaming me of course. How come he gets to talk to me that way but I can't talk to him that way?

Then when he called and I answered he hung up on me because I called his idea dumb because he made me mess up on my laundry. It's really convoluted. He's proposing we don't talk because I hung up on him yet he turns around and hangs up on me when I tell him that not talking isn't going to solve the problem of him calling me abusive.

[Cat Familiar]

Unicorn, I may have told you a bit about the beginning of my relationship with my current husband. Like you, I got involved with a married man without knowing it. Later, after I had fallen in love with him, I learned he was married.

He said he was leaving his relationship. And I believed him at the time. However, he didn't.

We quit seeing each other and over several years, I just could not get him out of my mind. Then I received a letter from him, which made me really angry. I thought, "why is he messing with my mind" and showed it to a friend. She read it and told me that he was still in love with me. That made me even angrier, since I had made room in my life for him and he continued on with his marriage.

I felt deceived, betrayed, you name it.

So, a few years later I received a phone call from him. He had ended his marriage (still not divorced) and would be in my area to teach a seminar. Would I like to see him? We met for dinner and he asked if he could visit me. Thus began our relationship (again). He got divorced and we've been together for 11 years.

I didn't see the BPD in him until we'd been together a few years. I did see the substance abuse (alcohol and prescription medication). He's better now with that, but it still is an issue at times.

The reason I'm telling you all this is that I hear so much anger and betrayal in your words. I've felt that too, even though now we have a pretty good relationship, despite his BPD. I realize that I'm still harboring some of the bad feelings at how our relationship began.

I hear what you're experiencing in a LDR relationship and I wonder a few things:

Do you think you'll be able to forgive him completely even if he does get a divorce?

Do you believe your relationship will be better when you are able to live with him?

You seem to have a lot of conflict now. Do you foresee that lessening after he does formally end his marriage?

[chump]

I noticed that the title of this thread involves "Circular Arguments" and I noticed my experience of reading it had a bit of a "circular" quality to it.  It seems like the key points GK and FF are getting at keep slipping through the cracks. Or like trying to pick up a bouncing ball, reaching for it, and tripping over your feet and kicking the ball away just as you think you have it.

Unicorn, what I'm interpreting from the feedback here is that you have the right to conduct a relationship on whatever terms you wish for, and only be available in ways that feel healthy and right to you.  You want your pwBPD to initiate his divorce and demonstrate that to you in an irrefutable way.  That sounds like a perfectly reasonable boundary.  You can assert your right to wait until that criteria is met before proceeding any further, defined however feels appropriate to you.

You have the right to only communicate when the tone feels mutually respectful, something pwBPD may often find difficult, but you still have the right to assert that boundary and respectfully end any conversation that violates that tenet, to return at a later time when emotions have cooled.

FF was pointing out earlier that the fact that this is a LDR seems to facilitate this kind of healthy boundary setting.  

I hope the tone of my post is coming across with complete respect, these are maddening and difficult dynamics, but there is something about this thread that seems a bit circular.  Like each time there's a chance for clarity, or "aha" moment, the topic will shift a bit, and the point will be lost.

When all is said and done, often more is said than done.  Each of us has the right, the responsibility, the power to conduct ourselves in our relationships as we see fit.  And everyone else has the right to respond as they see fit, including consequences we may not like, but cannot control.  We get in the tall weeds pretty quickly when we try to exert control over others' behavior and choices.

Getting clarity about where our boundaries lie, and quietly, calmly, respectfully asserting them is all we really have control over anyway.  And this is the door that's always open to a kind of freedom and healthy relating that's transformative.

Chump.

[unicorn2014]

I didn't see the BPD in him until we'd been together a few years. I did see the substance abuse (alcohol and prescription medication). He's better now with that, but it still is an issue at times.

Last year my pwBPD threatened suicide with pain pills he had saved, I told him later that he was abusing prescription medication. He denied it. He always told me what a good patient he was, that his doctors had said so.

I hear what you're experiencing in a LDR relationship and I wonder a few things:

Do you think you'll be able to forgive him completely even if he does get a divorce?

I do not know

Do you believe your relationship will be better when you are able to live with him?

I do not know. Considering that the relationship so far has consisted of him visiting me and staying with me, I do not know what its like to visit him or stay with him.

You seem to have a lot of conflict now. Do you foresee that lessening after he does formally end his marriage?

I do not know. I have a problem with his attitude. I know we're in a high conflict relationship, he doesn't believe we are.

Also thanks for pointing out to me that I feel betrayed. I had not realized that. I'm glad I feel more then anger, and I definitely don't know how to communicate that to my pwBPD. I have a feelings wheel that my former sponsor gave to me so I will take a look at that to see where betrayal fits in, as well as my old dbt material. I'm not very good with feelings myself.

[unicorn2014]

I noticed that the title of this thread involves "Circular Arguments" and I noticed my experience of reading it had a bit of a "circular" quality to it.  It seems like the key points GK and FF are getting at keep slipping through the cracks. Or like trying to pick up a bouncing ball, reaching for it, and tripping over your feet and kicking the ball away just as you think you have it.



I hope the tone of my post is coming across with complete respect, these are maddening and difficult dynamics, but there is something about this thread that seems a bit circular.  Like each time there's a chance for clarity, or "aha" moment, the topic will shift a bit, and the point will be lost.

Chump.

Chump, that's quite a handle. Its a bit hard to reply to. 

I'm the one that titled this thread, it was so long the moderators started another thread.

I hear what you are saying. I don't know how to respond. My pwBPD wants to blame me for the problems in our relationship. I don't know what to do with that. I wanted to talk to him about the dynamic in our relationship but he immediately wanted to shift the blame to me so I withdrew.

I do not mean to be circular. This is a learning process for me, and I have a lot going on with my daughter simultaneously.

[chump]

  Yeah the handle describes the guy who first came to this site way back when it was still called the "Nook." I'm less "chump-like" these days.[/quote]
My pwBPD wants to blame me for the problems in our relationship. I don't know what to do with that.[/quote]
Here's a good, small, simple example to work on.  He "wants" to blame you.  Of course he does.  Blaming you is a whole lot easier than taking responsibility for it himself.

Lots of people would prefer to blame the other person for problems in a relationship.  Fair enough.  Pretty understandable actually.  Now, you get to decide what you do with that.  You can understand that he "wants" to blame you, you can choose to radically accept that he "wants" to blame you, and then you can choose to decide how much, if any, of that blame you are willing to take on, either now, or ever.  Then you can decide what, if anything, you want to do in response to the parts that you are willing to accept blame for, communicate about, problem-solve around, make adjustments, apologies, whatever.

This is a small example of something you can do about his "wanting" to blame you.

See what I'm getting at?

Chump.

[formflier]

I do not mean to be circular. This is a learning process for me, and I have a lot going on with my daughter simultaneously.

Great time to slow down... .instead of letting a "point" or issue slip by... .keep the focus on that.  Get it solved... .move on to next issue.

I think that limiting the amount of contact you have with your pwBPD would be a great thing... .right now there is so much wrapped up in what he said, who he hung up on, why he hung up, what he said to his dad, what his dad said to him, what his dr said to him, what you said to him about his prescriptions... .the list could go on.

Limited contact is not punitive.  He may claim it is... .  Please don't worry about his claims.

Focus on slowing down... .focus on figuring out your values and actions and boundaries to protect those.  Focus on consistently applying those boundaries

You can't do it all at once.  None of us can. 

Yes... .there will be a lot of things that you will have to "let go" while finding a solution to the issue you are focused on.  That's fine if you actually stay focused and find a solution.

If the focus keeps changing  a couple times a day and no solutions are found.  Well... .I think we know how that turns out.

You are the one in charge of the "pace" of the r/s.  The speed.  You are the one in charge of the communication.  You have a choice to answer the phone... .or not

I really feel like you are "almost there"... .and then it slips through your fingers (a little different way of saying what Chump seems to have noticed). 

Slow down... .focus... .solutions exist... .find the solution... .then face the next issue.

FF

[unicorn2014]

This is a small example of something you can do about his "wanting" to blame you.

See what I'm getting at?

Chump.

Yes and I was able to communicate to him that without seeing irrefutable proof that he has initiated divorce that I am going to remain feeling angry and betrayed and that ultimately I would have to leave the relationship. I told him I understood how my feelings of anger and betrayal were causing me to act and I told him I believed that if he were be able to provide me with what I was asking for that that would heal that, but not until then.

I recognize that while I may not be acting abusive there is a part of me that wants to or enjoys hurting him back for hurting me.

I also recognize the only way this is going to stop is he addresses what caused the hurt in the first place.

I told him until he was able to do this our relationship would remain at a standstill.

I definitely feel better now that I've "cleared the air".

I think this is what FF was referring to about telling my pwBPD how I feel. I did and it does seem to have improved things.

I did tell my pwBPD why I was acting the way I do.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[unicorn2014]

I really feel like you are "almost there"... .and then it slips through your fingers (a little different way of saying what Chump seems to have noticed). 

Slow down... .focus... .solutions exist... .find the solution... .then face the next issue.

FF

FF, I was able to take your advice from the other day and communicate to my pwBPD how I feel. I was able to tell him while I am not abusing him I can see how I want to hurt him after he hurts me and thats not good. I was also able to tell him that the only thing that will heal that is seeing irrefutable evidence that he has initiated divorce. He asked me to promise him I would stop acting the way I'm acting and I told him I could not promise him anything, I could only have faith that seeing irrefutable evidence that he initiated divorce would help me heal and that until I see that nothing is going to change.

I feel better about my self now.

I was also able to tell my pwBPD that ultimately if I had to continue to contain these feelings of anger and betrayal that I would have to leave the relationship. I told him its been like this since I discovered his divorce was not filed with the court. He said "you're saying you're going to break up with me." I said "No, I said ultimately I will have to leave the relationship if this situation is not resolved as I can not contain these feelings indefinitely and they will not change until the situation is resolved."

I think that bought me some time.

If I, yes I, get triggered again, I will do my best to bring it to the board so I can back away.

Nothing has changed except I have told him the truth, and I understand myself better.

I hope this is an improvement.

[Grey Kitty]

Boundary enforcement gets pretty harsh at this level. You cannot control his actions, only yours, and that doesn't give you a lot of different options.

The boundary "I will not be in a relationship with somebody who is married (to somebody else)" is a tough one.

Are you willing to end your relationship over his marriage? It is tough. However if this is what fits your values, you may have to do it.

  I'm wishing you strength and clarity.

[I'm also wishing he will get a clue, but that is outside my control as much as it is outside yours]

[unicorn2014]

Boundary enforcement gets pretty harsh at this level. You cannot control his actions, only yours, and that doesn't give you a lot of different options.

The boundary "I will not be in a relationship with somebody who is married (to somebody else)" is a tough one.

Are you willing to end your relationship over his marriage? It is tough. However if this is what fits your values, you may have to do it.

Thanks Grey Kitty, I'm not at that point yet, but I appreciate knowing what my boundary is. I was able to communicate to my pwBPD that until I see irrefutable proof that he has initiated divorce I will remain feeling angry and betrayed. I also told him I could not sustain this level of hurt indefinitely and if the situation is not resolved I will end up having to leave the relationship.

He said he was calling some lawyers tomorrow. I pointed out to him that he said  he already initiated divorce so he should be able to show me proof of that. He said he's having a problem with his laptop.

I've told him how I felt, how its causing me to act, what needs to happen for me to stop feeling this way, and what the end result will be if he does not give me what I ask for.

To me there is a big difference between breaking up with someone and leaving the relationship. I don't want to leave the relationship but ultimately if I don't get what I want I will have to.

For now I feel at peace.

There is never a good time to leave a relationship, but while my daughter is dealing with the worst case of poison oak in her life is definitely not it.

[formflier]

I also recognize the only way this is going to stop is he addresses what caused the hurt in the first place.

OK... .official formflier advice.  Stop giving away your power.

It can also stop by choices that you make.  You can't force him to stop participating in this.  You can chose for you not to participate.

Do you see how you put the responsibility for "stopping this" on him? 

I agree it would be great if he changed his ways.  But after three years... .I think he is pretty set in his ways.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Formflier, I think I wasn't clear about what it was I was trying to stop. He accused me of being abusive. While I maintain that I was not being abusive, I do recognize that I appear to experience  satisfaction at hurting him back after he hurt me. What I was saying is that the only way I'm going to get out of this cycle is if he addresses what caused the hurt in the first place, or I leave the relationship. Those are my two choices. I will remain feeling angry and betrayed until he can show me irrefutably that he has initiated divorce. I was able to state that to him in plain English. He wants things to go back to the way they were. I said the only way they are going to do that is if you show me irrefutably that you have initiated divorce. Things have not been good since September when I discovered his divorce had not been filed. Things will not be good until something changes.

[formflier]

FF, I was able to take your advice from the other day and communicate to my pwBPD how I feel. I was able to tell him while I am not abusing him I can see how I want to hurt him after he hurts me and thats not good.

I'd be very curious to see what I advised and see where the disconnect is.  When communicating feelings to a pwBPD less is more.  Keep message short and focused.

I do not advise further communication like what you just described above.

My advice.

1.  :)ramatically decrease (2/3rds cut) the amount of communication between you guys.  Both in length of communication and number of times per day.  

2.  Stop talking to him (nagging) about the divorce.

3.  Take half of the time you "get back" from not talking to him and focus that energy on your daughter.  Take the other half and focus on self care of you.


Let those changes take hold for a couple of weeks and we'll see how YOU feel about things and then make adjustments to the top three priorities.

FF

[formflier]

Things will not be good until something changes.

100% agreement here.

He can change.  How likely is that?

You can change.  How likely is that?

Now... .the key of what we teach here is that if the non makes a change to the relationship dynamic the pwBPD will have to change tactics (behavior).  Initially the tactics may seem worse as pwBPD try to get you back to what they are used to, but they will eventually drop this once they see the old ways don't work.

This is why consistency is critical.  This is why it is important to stay focused in the threads here, so you can identify a behavior you can change and you actually make that change and see the relationship dynamic shift.


FF

[unicorn2014]

Formflier again I think we are misunderstanding each other.

He initiates most of the communication during the day, not me.

He gets the ball rolling in the morning with texts and a message before I even wake up.

He's 3 hours ahead of me.

I initiate FaceTime with him at the end of the day while I'm cooking dinner and when my daughter is home.

I really wish I could do a better job of communicating my reality to the board. Often it seems like I'm being held responsible for the pwBPD behavior.

It seems like I'm neglecting myself and my daughter but I'm not. That's what's so frustrating about online communication. It really does a disservice to my reality.

What you're hearing from me is tiredness around single parenting issues.

I'm going to try to do a better job to keep my feelings separate for this board.

[formflier]

Formflier again I think we are misunderstanding each other.

He initiates most of the communication during the day, not me.

I adjusted my advice a little bit.  Let him text and call all he wants.  You have the power to answer... .or not.  He is not involved in that decision.



1.  Dramatically decrease (2/3rds cut) the amount of communication you accept from him.  Both in length of communication and number of times per day. 

2.  Stop talking to him (nagging) about the divorce.

3.  Take half of the time you "get back" from not talking to him and focus that energy on your daughter.  Take the other half and focus on self care of you.

[formflier]

What you're hearing from me is tiredness around single parenting issues.

Yes... .that is and has been very obvious that you are tired and need more energy on the parenting side.

The proposed solution (proposed by me and by others) is to take from where the energy is going (and in my opinion you are not getting much return for it) and put it where you seem to be getting enjoyment and fulfillment (your daughter).

You can only do so much... .as you only have a certain amount of energy and time. 

It's very obvious you love and care for your daughter.      It's obvious that you enjoy doing things with and for her.  That seems to be a highlight of your life.  Putting energy "over there" towards you daughter will have numerous benefits for both of you.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

He accused me of being abusive. While I maintain that I was not being abusive, I do recognize that I appear to experience  satisfaction at hurting him back after he hurt me.

Being angry, even being violent is not the exactly the same thing as being abusive. Abusive behavior is a way of controlling another person, and it is the control that makes it abusive, NOT the violence. In many cases, abusers do not need to use violence to achieve the results, or don't need it most of the time, because the threat is always there.

I don't believe you are being abusive. At least I haven't heard anything you described that sounded that way.

I believe your finance is being abusive to you. I suspect that his claim you are abusive is part of his abuse. If so, you should just disengage from it.

It isn't likely the case... .but even if you are being abusive, disengaging is the best thing to do, instead of continuing to abuse him.

Whatever the actual situation, disengage when he accuses you of abusing him.



You are tired out being a single parent.

You do and your daughter do daily facetime with him. (I'm figuring this helps the parenting load for you)

You deal with his drama and being pissed that he's not moving his divorce forward. (This drains you)

Is the net result of your time in contact with him serving you well?

Are you enjoying facetime, texts, and other contacts with him equally?

[unicorn2014]

FF, why is less more when communicating feelings to a pwBPD?

[unicorn2014]

Grey kitty, my daughter doesn't always Facetime him. I FaceTime him when I'm in the kitchen cooking and he reads to me and then we watch the x files together. He helps her with her homework when she needs it.

/

I am not abusive to my partner. I do know sometimes that what I say gets to him. I do hang up on him when he calls me abusive.

[RedPixie]

Hello,

Why do you keep closing and opening new threads?

I don't understand.  Why not leave all the usefull guidance for someone to find in one place.

Like this it seems to be going round in circles.

(I am new here so I'm not in the know)

X

[formflier]

Hello,

Why do you keep closing and opening new threads?

I don't understand.  Why not leave all the usefull guidance for someone to find in one place.

Like this it seems to be going round in circles.

(I am new here so I'm not in the know)

RedPixie,

That is a great question.  It has to do with software.  When you have 6 pages you have an "ALL" button that you can use to load all of the comments at once.  If you go to 7 pages (or more) then you don't have an "all" button.

"All" lets you load all 6 pages at once for scrolling and reading.

Staff members are in charge of closing threads and breaking threads up into pieces that are relevant and useful.

FF

[formflier]

FF, why is less more when communicating feelings to a pwBPD?

Because there is a lot going on in their heads and it is very easy for them to twist information and "miss" the real message.  This is not intentional.

They could get offended by an offhand remark and miss the last couple sentences of what you are saying.  See lesson below.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79702.0


There is also some fear of intimacy involved.  In a longer message about feelings... .if something early on gets really intimate with them they very well may start pushing the rest of the message away and not listen.  If you limit you message to one issue and keep it short.  They hear it... .and even though they are pushing back... they hear it.


https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79300





If you feel that you need to talk more.  Perhaps the SET format or dearman would work.  If they are "a little" worked up.  SET could be critical because the SE part may soothe them enough to hear your T.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0


Last:  If they are on their way to a dysreg... or they are dysregulated.  Skip trying to communicate anything important.

disengage... .let them soothe themselves.  Then try again.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Grey kitty, my daughter doesn't always Facetime him. I FaceTime him when I'm in the kitchen cooking and he reads to me and then we watch the x files together. He helps her with her homework when she needs it.

That is a bit clearer. I do have a question for you that got lost in the shuffle.

For this question, please back away a little bit from the issue of his divorce, as any discussions of that are sucky and unpleasant, and I think that issue has been nearly beaten to death anyhow.

You currently have a LDR with him. You've mentioned messaging him throughout the day and FaceTime while you are cooking in the kitchen. Before the divorce issue got to where it was today, he came to stay with you fairly regularly as well.

Do you enjoy spending time with him more in some formats than others (text, facetime, in person, etc.)?

Do some seem more prone to fights or misunderstandings?

Do you find yourself wanting to spend more time with him?

Do you find yourself dreading it when you see  his texts, or know it is time to call?

[unicorn2014]

Red pixie, moderators opened a new thread because they close them at 6. Please read the posting guidelines .

[unicorn2014]

Formflier, my fiancé is not afraid of intimacy . He proposed to me before we met. He got physically intimate on the first date.

[Mutt]

The thread has reached it's post limit and is now locked. The topic of discussion has been split and can be found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=285724.0