Poor executive control: What can and can't I say about my feelings to a pwBPD?

[unicorn2014]

  stayers

So over the course of the last discussion I asked a question a couple of times that did not get an answer so I figured I'd give it its own show.

FF had mentioned to me that less is more when communicating feelings to a pwBPD.

I kind of got myself in trouble a couple of days ago when I told my pwBPD that sometimes I felt like he treated me like a small child treats its comfort object, dragging it down the hallway by its ear. I was actually saying it out of compassion for him, not out of resentment or anger, but he got totally offended. I tried googling an image to show him what I meant but that offended him even more. www.2.bp.blogspot.com/-YTjTgklLX6k/UTUN3jdBWPI/AAAAAAAACqo/hVOpg2i18L4/s1600/Young+English+boy+and+stuffed+animal+after+bombing,+1945.jpg

He told me that was disgusting.

He ended up sending me an email about objectify and asking me if that's what I meant.

It wasn't.

I didn't respond to the email.



I was disappointed by his reaction. I was actually trying to address the  part of him that is like a little child, I wasn't trying to be mean or nasty. I wasn't saying that he hurt me, I was trying to communicate to him that sometimes I think he treats me like a comfort object, but I wasn't saying it in a cruel way. I was actually trying to express  empathy and acceptance to him in a humorous manner, but he didn't receive it that way at all.

So, am I not allowed to use metaphors with my pwBPD when describing my feelings? Will that get me in trouble every time?  I definitely don't want to go through that kind of reaction again. It was  a big waste of time and energy.

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[EaglesJuju]

I think that poor communication can muddle things quite often.  A lack of understanding on what is being communicated is not solely attributed to BPD. Communication is a two way street. 

In my opinion, your partner did not understand the context or what you were trying to articulate. Expressing feelings can be hard, especially to someone who is very sensitive to criticism.  The lack of response to his email most likely exacerbated his hurt feelings. Why didn't you respond to the email?

SET is honestly one of the best tools for communicating.  I use it with not only my bf, but other people who are in my life. I have communicated my feelings about quite a few sensitive topics with minimal problems. I like to talk through my feelings with my bf and I really have not had a problem with being longwinded. I don't feel the need to hold back.  I have used metaphors and similes to describe how I feel and never had a problem. Although what may work for me and my bf, may not work for another. 

We may not always like the reaction of another person if we tell them something they may not agree with. Unfortunately, people are not always are going to agree. Regardless of anticipating an unfavorable response from a loved one, it feels good to be able to express your opinions and feelings and not worry if it will upset them. 

[unicorn2014]

Hi eagles and thank you for responding .

Why didn't I respond to my pwBPD email?

How would you respond to this:

-----

Subject: objectify

Is this how you see me sometimes?

* Instrumentality – treating as a tool for one’s own purposes;

* Denial of autonomy – treating as if lacking in self-determination;

* Inertness – treating as if lacking in agency;

* Ownership – treating as if owned by another;

* Fungibility – treating as if interchangeable;

* Violability – treating as if permissible to smash;

* and the denial of subjectivity – treating as if there is no need to show concern for the ‘object’s’ feelings

----

I was trying to tell him sometimes he acts like a hurt little child and I'm his comfort object (stuffed animal). He totally twisted it around.

He has this habit of telling me I don't know the meaning of the words I'm using or I don't say what I mean.

---

I noticed you said you express yourself poetically to your boyfriend. I also notice your person is a parent. May I ask if your boyfriend is a non? I'm sorry I'm not familiar with your story yet.

[waverider]

Two   s

#1 ... It was a criticism no matter how you dress it up, that is all he hears.

#2 pwBPD dont do analogies as that needs an appreciation of context, they struggle with this. You liken  him to a child=You are calling him a child

The whole exchange all he hears is "you are like a useless child". The rest is drowned out

[unicorn2014]

Two   s

#1 ... It was a criticism no matter how you dress it up, that is all he hears.

#2 pwBPD dont do analogies as that needs an appreciation of context, they struggle with this. You liken  him to a child=You are calling him a child

The whole exchange all he hears is "you are like a useless child". The rest is drowned out

Ok, so he can criticize me all he wants, but if he even thinks I'm critiquing him, he gets to dysregulate?

2. So no analogies for me yet he gets to use all the analogies he wants?

That sure doesn't seem fair.

That sure seems like a way to build resentments.

On top of this all he denies that he has any BPD traits left, now it's all PTSD.

This is maddening.

[EaglesJuju]

Why didn't I respond to my pwBPD email?

How would you respond to this:

-----

Subject: objectify

Is this how you see me sometimes?

* Instrumentality – treating as a tool for one’s own purposes;

* Denial of autonomy – treating as if lacking in self-determination;

* Inertness – treating as if lacking in agency;

* Ownership – treating as if owned by another;

* Fungibility – treating as if interchangeable;

* Violability – treating as if permissible to smash;

* and the denial of subjectivity – treating as if there is no need to show concern for the ‘object’s’ feelings

----

I was trying to tell him sometimes he acts like a hurt little child and I'm his comfort object (stuffed animal). He totally twisted it around.

He has this habit of telling me I don't know the meaning of the words I'm using or I don't say what I mean.

Waverider summed up how most likely he perceived the comment. People who have low self-worth and self-esteem are very sensitive to criticism. I can see with his email how he may have felt. It seems that he feels that you perceive in this manner. As you know with pwBPD, feelings of the moment are equal to facts.

Do you think there could have been a better way to articulate what you were trying to say?

It is beneficial to use words such as, "I feel."

I noticed you said you express yourself poetically to your boyfriend. I also notice your person is a parent. May I ask if your boyfriend is a non? I'm sorry I'm not familiar with your story yet.

My bf suffers from BPD/Bipolar. I do express my feelings with him. I did not express my feelings so openly for a very long time, due to being in fear of his reaction. It is feasible with validation and using SET. We have an understanding of our communication types. He knows that I am a "talker" and like to communicate. He is not the greatest with communicating and knows he has a problem with it (those are his own words).  He is working on it though and has improved, but he has a tendency to jump to conclusions or assume. I can tell when he is getting to that point of assuming.

[unicorn2014]

Eagles,

I did say I feel but then I used an analogy, so I guess an analogy is out.

My pwBPD says he doesn't need validation.

It's very difficult to get along with a person who denies he has BPD and acts like he does.

It's also hard to get along with a person who denies he needs validation and acts like he does.

It's definitely unfair.

[EaglesJuju]

I did say I feel but then I used an analogy, so I guess an analogy is out.

My pwBPD says he doesn't need validation.

It's very difficult to get along with a person who denies he has BPD and acts like he does.

It's also hard to get along with a person who denies he needs validation and acts like he does.

It's definitely unfair.

Everyone needs validation. It is a part of communicating and understanding another person. I think it is a human need to want to be heard and understood.  How it is applied is reliant on individual needs and characteristics. From my experience, I found it is best to give validation regardless of what was said.

It is hard for some people to accept that they have a mental illness. For this reason, that is why many psychologists/psychiatrists do not focus on labels. It can be stigmatizing and many people just focus on maladaptive behavior. Why is the label of BPD so important to you?

Changing how you react and respond to him will make things less difficult. It is unfair, but you can level the playing field with your own changes.

[unicorn2014]

Eagles, the "label" is important because why else would I be in a support forum for people in r/s with pwBPD? He gets to deny the "label" but I have to deal with the behavior? I didn't say a therapist didn't describe him as borderline. I said he thinks he's outgrown borderline.

As to validation: so I have to do the extra work for a person who looks down his nose at validation and sees needing it as weak? That is what he told me. That is also out of balance.

[formflier]

Ok, so he can criticize me all he wants, but if he even thinks I'm critiquing him, he gets to dysregulate?

Yes... .

Please don't focus on what he "gets to do"... .put your focus on what "you get to do". 

He criticizes, you get to make a choice to listen or hang up or possibly other choices as well. 

His mouth... .his choices about what comes out of it.

Your ears... .your choices about what goes in them... .


I would suggest you switch "thinks" to "feels".  Remember... .the "batttleground" of BPD is their feelings of the moment.

2. So no analogies for me yet he gets to use all the analogies he wants?

This is maddening.

Again... .yes... .

You have a choice to listen to those analogies or not.  I would suggest you not listen.

Yes... it can be maddening... .frustrating... .

FF

[unicorn2014]

For flyer , this is crazy and at least I'm getting it.

To make things even more infuriating he clings stubbornly to his temperament type, NT, from the Myers Briggs, and says he thinks his feelings.

He basically gets a free pass to be a jerk.

Definitely out of balance.

[formflier]

 

He basically gets a free pass to be a jerk.

Definitely out of balance.

Yes you are getting it.

Yes he gets to be whatever he wants to be.

It depends on point of view (IMO) if it is out of balance or not.

He is... who he is... .you are who you are.  That seems balanced

You get to make choices about how you behave and what behavior you will tolerate from others.

He gets to make choices about how he behaves and the behavior he will tolerate from others.

To me... .that seems balanced as well.

What is is that seems out of balance to you?

FF

[Cloudy Days]

Unicorn, I see that you think this stuff is unfair and it is. Being with someone with Borderline traits or even just BPD in full is not really a fair relationship. We choose to be with them or we choose to leave. As for the Analogies thing, I know when my husband uses his ridiculous analogies he is usually at the total opposite of the spectrum of things, an extreme example of what he is trying to explain. If I say I didn't mean to do something, he will use the analogy of I didn't mean for his Dick to fall in me... .with people who have BPD things are never grey, they are black or white and any analogy you use to describe him he's probably going to see as black if it is any form of criticism. Just because that is how he thinks, you can't change how he thinks you can only change how you act. You obviously think differently than him and understand that your analogy wasn't meant with any harm but that is simply not how he took it, nothing is going to change that. What you can do is keep focusing on how you speak to him, if something isn't working then change what you are doing. It doesn't really matter if he denies the label because this support group is for people who need help with their relationship regardless of whether they acknowledge they have BPD or even if they just have traits of it. The tools work on both types. The only person you have control over is you, how you act, how you think and how you react.

[unicorn2014]

Form flier what is out of balance is I didn't know any of this about him when I accepted his marriage proposal and now I'm in a committed r/s with a pwBPD traits.

[unicorn2014]

Cloudy days, thank you. He likes to point out to me that I think differently then him which translates to as thinks incorrectly.

Today everything is fine and  I'm still annoyed by something he said yesterday about the subject that's been beaten to death in my previous threads. I'm still mad at him for the preposterous things he expects me to believe are true.

[Cloudy Days]

I'm still mad at him for the preposterous things he expects me to believe are true.

You don't have to believe him, you just have to acknowledge that you hear him and understand him. That's actually a part of Validation. You know that you can agree to disagree but again, that's not how his brain works. If you don't believe something that he believes then you are telling him that he is stupid in his own dysfunctional way of thinking. So you have to throw him a bone so to say. If you understand where he is coming from that makes him feel less wrong.

Also you are not alone, my husband was a completely different person when I married him. Of course there were   but it wasn't the full blown BPD mess that I deal with today.

[unicorn2014]

Cloudy days, when my fiancé proposed to me he was already across the country. I was infatuated and I had only had one prior relationship, my marriage to a bipolar substance abuser, so I had no gauge for normal.

My pwBPD does not like agreeing to disagree but he's come to use that term.

When I say preposterous things, I mean the ongoing excuses dealing with the subject of my prior posts. I used to believe him until I came to this forum. Now with the help of this forum im starting to challenge what he says.

[formflier]

Form flier what is out of balance is I didn't know any of this about him when I accepted his marriage proposal and now I'm in a committed r/s with a pwBPD traits.

OK... I'm confess that I am the one totally missing the analogy... .if out of balance was supposed to be analogy.

My understanding is that you didn't know him at all when you accepted marriage proposal... .correct?  My understanding is you made a choice to start your r/s at engagement.

Please explain what is "out of balance".

I look at it this way.  I didn't know any of the stuff I know about my wife before I married her.  In fact, a lot didn't become clear until about year 15 of marriage.  Natural disaster put extreme stress on our family... we were out of home for 6 months.  I learned a lot about her during that time... .she learned a lot about me.  BPD traits blossomed and took off from there.

That is the situation that I find myself in today.

FF

[formflier]

  Now with the help of this forum im starting to challenge what he says.

Challenging what they say is generally not a good strategy to deal with a pwBPD traits.

Challenge is a close cousin to argue.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Form flier, I didn't consciously think I'm beginning this r/s at the level of engagement . I didn't learn that until I joined this forum.

[EaglesJuju]

Eagles, the "label" is important because why else would I be in a support forum for people in r/s with pwBPD? He gets to deny the "label" but I have to deal with the behavior? I didn't say a therapist didn't describe him as borderline. I said he thinks he's outgrown borderline.

I understand the label is important to you, but the maladaptive behavior is what affects you most. That is a large reason why people tend to focus on the behavior. For this reason, understanding BPD behavior really helps. 

You do not have to deal with anything. You have the choice to not deal with his behavior. Only he can change his behavior and take the initiative to work on himself.

As to validation: so I have to do the extra work for a person who looks down his nose at validation and sees needing it as weak? That is what he told me. That is also out of balance.

All relationships take work. It does take more effort being in a relationship with a pwBPD.  Understanding how pwBPD behave is important with improving your relationship. He has his views and you have yours. The question is learning how to improve things in spite of your different viewpoints.

[formflier]

Form flier, I didn't consciously think I'm beginning this r/s at the level of engagement . I didn't learn that until I joined this forum.

So, when he sent you the ring, and asked you to get engaged, what was your impression of what you were doing or agreeing to.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Eagles, so how do I not deal with the behavior?

[unicorn2014]

Form flier, at the time it seemed like a good idea as I was an active member of my parish and it seemed like the ideal r/s. I knew nothing about BPD behavior at the time and it seemed like a r/s that fit my values. At the time I believed everything that he said to me.

[unicorn2014]

Form flier, if I can't challenge what he says then what can I do? It seems like my only option if I want to stay is to submit to what he says and I don't want to do that.

[Cloudy Days]

You can acknowledge his feelings and validate something that is true about his feelings. You don't have to submit to anything. Even if it is "it must be terrible to feel like that" You aren't agreeing with anything you don't want to agree with.

[unicorn2014]

Ok cloudy days here is a perfect example of the kind of behavior I tolerate.

He just hung up on me because I told him when he doesn't respond to what I say it makes feel like ending the conversation because it's over.

I have very little patience left.

I just got out of a class and he texted me 5 times and then called me.

I am not happy with him because of something that happened yesterday. There's no point in telling him how I feel because the situation hasn't changed. He hasn't given me what I wanted, he's made even more excuses for not giving me what I want. I was actually astounded at the sheer amount of excuses he was able to produce. It even impressed  me and I'm not easy to impress.

I'm barely hanging onto this r/s by a thread.

I'm so done with being emotionally dominated by him.

[formflier]

Form flier, if I can't challenge what he says then what can I do? It seems like my only option if I want to stay is to submit to what he says and I don't want to do that.

You believe your reality... .let him have his.

Your reality rules inside your boundaries and things that you control.  His reality rules inside his boundaries and areas that he controls.

Almost a certainty that he will try to "put" his reality inside your boundaries.  That is his right to try and do that... .you don't control what he does.  You can control if you let that reality inside your boundaries.  

There is a Radical Acceptance part of this.  It is odd the way "they" think... .I have personally expended a lot of energy trying to change the way my wife thinks and perceives things.

I am convinced that energy was wasted and my r/s is better by focusing on what and how I think... .instead of her.

FF

[formflier]

Form flier, at the time it seemed like a good idea as I was an active member of my parish and it seemed like the ideal r/s. I knew nothing about BPD behavior at the time and it seemed like a r/s that fit my values. At the time I believed everything that he said to me.

You didn't answer the question.

What was your impression of what you were doing when he sent you thing ring and asked you to be engaged?

You made a choice based on something... .it appears that you made a choice to become engaged.  

I ask because what you said below was confusing and not clear.

"Form flier, I didn't consciously think I'm beginning this r/s at the level of engagement"

So... .did you become engaged without consciously making a choice?

I'm not interested in what he said... .or didn't say... .I'm interested in what you decided for yourself.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Form flier I hear what you are saying and I am wondering how I can apply it to what's going on right now. I did take your advice and am really trying to cut down on the amount of times I react to him.

For example he just hung up on me because I told him when he doesn't respond to me it makes me think the conversation is over and I want to end it. I put my phone in do not disturb mode. I am sure he's sent me texts.

He claims the call was lost. I don't believe him.

In terms of how the r/s started, I thought it was a good idea at the time to be engaged. I had no idea that 3 years later nothing would have changed. Does that answer your question?