She seems to be verbally trying to get me to fight or put me in corner

[formflier]

I "decided" as the leader that we had reached the limit on conversation and that we should switch to email to slow things down. 

I'll post the two emails I sent her.

She shouted a bit across the house at me and tried a couple times to "double down" on bad behavior.  I didn't take the bait.

I believe my calmness and no bait taking is upsetting.  Oh well.

FF

[formflier]

I think we did a decent to good job this morning of working through what could have been a volatile conversation.

My initial take on the entire conversation is that Matthew 6 is the part of God's word that would most inform and care for the conversation.  I read it several times before starting to try to put my thoughts down in writing.   I chose this method because after prayerful consideration I think this is a critically important conversation that needs to be "slowed down" to that we each understand each other.

I am convinced that we are going to be ok with jobs, money and the future.  Even though I can't answer questions about how it is all going to work out.  When I look at "the forrest" I say "we can do this", even though I don't have any idea how to cut down some of the trees.  My goal is to make sure that the trees we are working on get cut, hauled off and properly cared for so that they are really gone.  (I hope this analogy works, )

Are you convinced of this?  I would invite you to think and pray about this and share your thoughts and feelings with me.  I want to understand what and how you think about this topic.

Big picture.  In these type of conversations I think we need to stay away from "mousetrap questions" or questioning each other like on a witness stand.  My hope is that we can seek to understand each others feelings and emotions.

So, to the question at hand.

"How does it make any sense if I (ffw) make $11 an hour and you (ff) make $15 an hour that I go to work and you stay home"  (If I have not properly captured the question, please submit the updated question in writing).

At the most surface level, the "premise" of the question seems to say it doesn't make sense for ffw to work and ff to stay home.  That would be a very "surfacey" (I think I made up a new word).

However, life is not surfacey.  Life is complex.  It doesn't fit into neat little questions like this.  The list of assumptions that I see or think about when evaluating this question are numerous. 

That is the purpose of long, intimate, respectful conversations.  To listen and understand where each of us is coming from.  To evaluate actual options on the table, vice hypothetical or theoretical issues.

Hypothetical or theoretical issues are great to understand how each of us thinks and approaches issues.  They are NOT great when they are used to "establish a default" decision on potential future real decisions.  The actual conditions that exist need to be thoroughly evaluated with the theoretical arguments used as a benchmark or point of comparison.

I'll wrap up this email after again reading Matthew 6.  The part that most sticks in my mind is verse 34.  34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Somehow this will all get sorted out.  I love you, I am confident about our future.

I would ask that you consider this and provide me a written response.

I love you,

[formflier]

So, I sent the first email and she doubles down on bad behavior.

Then I send the next one.

[formflier]

As leader of the family, I do NOT think it wise to continue trying to have an in person conversation about question right now.  I DO think it would be helpful for you to capture the things you are saying to me and put them in writing and send them to me.  I DO think that it would be good for you to read Matthew 6 and pray before and during your efforts to write those things down.

I believe that will "slow down" the conversation and help us be more clear and more respectful of each others feelings and thoughts on this very important issue.

I will NOT discuss, defend, explain thoughts I don't have, feelings I don't feel and positions that I do not hold.

If you believe I am experiencing certain emotions, having certain thoughts I certainly appreciate the concern and interested in my thoughts and emotions.  It would be helpful for you to ask things like "Help me understand the emotion or thought behind what you have said."  That leaves it "safe" for me to express my actual thoughts and emotions.

When I am posed with a question/statement such as "The other day when I brought up vocational rehab and you were so upset" (or words to that effect) it is no longer "safe" for me to share my feelings about that day or vocational rehab unless they "match" "me being upset". 

That would be an example of me "explaining away" something that I never felt in the first place.  A lot of time and energy would be wasted on something that doesn't exist.

I understand that you may not feel this way about your feelings or you may.  (either way is ok).

The other day (voc rehab thing after counseling) the conversation crossed into two areas where if the conversation continued, it is likely that I would have had a negative or sinful reaction. 

1.  I don't have disrespectful conversations about veterans (including me) and their issues.

2.  I don't have conversations about emotions and thoughts that I don't have.

I am not at all upset that the conversation (or incident) happened.  I pointed out that boundaries had been crossed, offered solutions to have the conversation a different way or a different time.  Those choices did not appear to be something you were willing to choose from so a decision was made to go home.

Again, I don't hold it against you, was not and am not mad or upset.  I respect your choices and I hope you can respect mine.

I love you,

[formflier]

After sending the second email she continued to try to engage me verbally about this and I asked her again to put it in writing and send me her thoughts.

After that I ignored her.

She seemed to sigh and "be resigned" that she was not going to get her pound of flesh, or whatever,


Oh yeah, how it all started.

She wanted to talk this morning, so I listened, tried to meet her where she was, listen, validate,

It was a meandering conversation of "why"  "if this then that",

She claimed nothing was on her mind, but she was trying to back me in the corner in a number of issues.

I kept going with it until she started getting frustrated or not liking my answers.  She would claim I didn't answer a question that I had, it shifted into "witness stand" mode.  Validation was no longer working.

I think she felt the conversation was getting away from her, that she was not going to win so she started telling me how upset I was (today and other days), that I should admit this, pray about this.

"Can you just answer a question?", she practically wailed,

I called time on the conversation, we made an appointment to discuss further in an hour.  I wrote the first email. 

She plopped down beside me at exactly 10am (1 hour) and  was in full prosecutor mode, not "pissed off", but highly agitated.

I sent her the email,

My understanding is that she is refusing to write me back.  I will respect her choices and won't pester her anymore about it.

We had a great night last night (tried a new Indian food place, very yummy), I got a wonderful night sleep and I have several cars to work on today and a garage that needs organizing.  Taming is a better way to say it.

I have a smile on my face and spring in my step, about the way I handled things. 

I feel more emboldened about things and the role that I can play.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Please help me understand... .   

What is going on with you responding to her upsetness by a long email like that?

Your email seems to (in between the lines, what I hear) say:  

I am leader, here are my feelings, I am strongly considering only my own feelings.

And setting this/ you straight.

-----------

What you are even expressing seems so not clear and tangible to me FF.

It is just way too filled with opinions and ideas and not graspable things especially for someone who would need to be able to put herself in your shoes to follow it to gather your line of thinking.

There are just too many concepts all in one place, overwhelming, flooding the mind, and I feel a sense of you being authoritative in it all vs collaborative or tender loving.

What happened?

--------------

So here is a response that would have worked better on me had I felt already disregulated and frustrated with you... .

Dear FFW,

"How does it make any sense if I (ffw) make $11 an hour and you (ff) make $15 an hour that I go to work and you stay home" (If I have not properly captured the question, please submit the updated question in writing).

Yes, you are certainly correct.  When looking purely at the hourly rate of you vs myself, it appears the sensible conclusion may be that ffw could stay home with the kids, while FF goes to work.

However, when considering what is best for our family as a whole, this actually is not a choice about dollar amounts but about what works for the well being of the whole family unit.

The way that I see it is that there is more factors to consider in addition to the importance of dollar amount.

-dollar amount

- hours able to work

- who can have more consistent stable employment

- are there any negative consequences or positive affects to one vs other being home with the kids

- how does FF employment affect income as whole/other financial benefits

- how health insurance fits in

Etc

I am proposing that as part of the discussion on me persuing VA rehab that this is a dynamic decision and dollar amounts of hourly rates for each partner is an important aspect of the whole topic.

Please tell me what your opinion is, if you see other factors that influence this decision and what are they?  

-----------------

This post is not as well thought/polished as I like but posting anyway... .

It at least demonstrates

-staying on one specific topic

-not bringing too much bible or other possible emotions into in for a one up closer to God competition

- being more robotic and logical vs opinion minded

Maybe this post is a starting point to something else? Idk

[Sunfl0wer]

I have a smile on my face and spring in my step... .about the way I handled things.  

How are you on the inside?

Do you feel calm, at ease and peace with your thoughts as you seemed to be following the attempted restaurant issue?

I believe my calmness and no bait taking is upsetting.  Oh well.

FF

To be frank: you actually sound like u flooded her system, somewhat antagonistic and callous about the result.  


IMO: you sound like you need space to find a better "center"

[formflier]

 

Good observations:  No intent to "argue" with you or her.

A lot of what she seemed to be going after was "how I work and was thinking about these issues". 

So, the emails were an attempt to lay out how I was feeling about it, how I process it.

I am in charge of my emotions and communication.

If she feels flooded, she can come back to it later.

She is in charge of her emotions and how she "manages" the email.

I "managed" the conversation that took a southward turn by moving communication to a written form.

I am positive there are unclear things in the email.  There definitely were in the conversation.  She can point out unclarity, ask for clarity if she chooses.

What I don't exactly know how to lay out verbally or in writing is she tries to oversimplify things while at the same time completely changing history.

I won't argue with her about history, but I also wont' agree with it to "just get along".

As I have thought about the conversation from a drama triangle point of view I suspect she was pushing me to lash out at her verbally by taking "pokes" at me, which would allow her to claim victim hood.

More later, like many of these things, this can be a bit lengthy or hard to explain or write about.

Bottom line, she wants to stay home and wants me to go to work.  There is assumption on her part that I can snap my fingers and "poof" have a job, and that my not having a job is "proof" that I don't want one.

FF

[formflier]

I am leader, here are my feelings, I am strongly considering only my own feelings.

And setting this/ you straight.

Very close,

I am the leader, here are my feelings on this issue.  This email will only consider my feelings, I will make no assumptions about your feelings.  If you would like to share those with me, send them to me in written form.  I AM setting the written record straight about my feelings, if you would like to share with me YOUR feelings, that is your choice.

While there is no intention to be mean or cause a dysreg or further upsetness there I was also intentional to NOT spend a lot of time and effort to "manage" my communication so that there would be a certain response or non-response from her.

I'm not responsible for her feelings. 

More later, gotta go get some more shopping done for the holiday weekend.  She said a couple hours ago she was going to her parents to get the mower (ours is broken), it's been a couple hours.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Well, I read your posts, FF, and I read Matthew 6 and I'm in no way dyregulated, but I'm terribly confused.  

I can see that requiring only a written response from your wife could be very triggering and would feel controlling. If I were in her shoes, I guess my written response would be "Huh?"

Invoking Matthew 6, particularly verses 25-34, you are triangulating God into your disagreement and basically telling her, ":)on't worry, be happy."

If I had a genuine concern about finances, I'd be quite pissed off at this.

All this underscores something valuable that you already know. As they say in the newspaper industry, here's the nut graf: her big trigger is worrying about money.

[Notwendy]

Your wife seems to be expressing her frustration at the role reversals. While your marriage is traditional in the religious sense, it isn't traditional in the father-works, mother stays at home roles. I personally believe that couples can work out an arrangement that works for them in various ways- as marriage is an agreement between two people. I am not of your denomination, but I have many friends who are, and they tend to be large homeschooling families with mom at home. That doesn't mean it is the only way to do this, but it seems to be the most frequent arrangement.

I can't speak for your wife, and although she may not be expressing this in the best way, may resent feeling as if the religious roles are in place, the other roles- father working, mother at home, are not. Your situation is understandable. You have physical considerations- and marriage is a commitment that continues with adjustments over a lifespan. However, she may be really struggling with this one, and it may underlie a lot of her behaviors.

[formflier]

 her big trigger is worrying about money.

Yep, and I am NOT responsible for that.

She would do this if I had another 6 figures coming in.  My attitude (my honest feelings inside) really match up with Matthew 6.  It will be ok.

I will let her share her feelings.

If she is pissed at feeling controlled, that is her right to feel that way.  It is my right to offer a pathway to continue the communication.

Basically, there is some boundary setting here.  There is some problem solving.

And, my gut says that it is not about the money.  She went over a myriad of different topics in the talk and I hung with her until she chose to "go there" with the BPDish stuff.

There are lots of financial things to discuss and decide, so, the door is open.  

FF

[Notwendy]

And I also agree with Cat, that if I had a genuine concern about finances, and was told to read the Bible about it, I would feel insulted. I also think it does insert a 3rd entity. She's expressing her concern to you.

[formflier]

 she may be really struggling with this one, and it may underlie a lot of her behaviors.

She wants to undo the commitments she made about moving here and "what she would do".

She wants to stay at home and not work.  She wants me to work and not be around.

She has clearly expressed this desire several times.  I also believe that a situation like this would be ideal.

She seems to have a hard time understanding the difference in desires and reality.


FF

[Notwendy]

Yes she does. I am not trying to pick on you here, but her worries seem to be showing themselves in a lot of behaviors that cause problems for you. I wonder if there is a way to address these feelings?

[formflier]

And I also agree with Cat, that if I had a genuine concern about finances, and was told to read the Bible about it, I would feel insulted. I also think it does insert a 3rd entity. She's expressing her concern to you.

But, in our biblical counseling we are being taught there are things much more important than money.

She expressed the concern numerous times verbally, I repeated the concern back many, many, many times.   I believe we agree on the concern.  She wants (I believe) a guaranteed solution that will never change (has actually said this before).

That IS the point of Mat 6.  Worry about today and todays problems.  Focus there.  

We are being exhorted to think "Biblically".  I am being exhorted to lead.

So, I did that.  She can process that however she wants.  That's her business.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Idk, FF, bluntly again... .

I feel like you are completely 'missing it.'

Here is my view:

A lot of what she seemed to be going after was "how I work and was thinking about these issues".  

Just because she appears to be questioning your roles in the household does not mean she actually is needing clarification about your views.

Imo: Has she ever really desired MORE understanding of FF wishes and thought process?  Or has that been infrequent?

It is possible that her poking at and questioning your role is a symptom of another desire:

Maybe insecurity on roles

Maybe feeling like she is failing at work

Maybe feeling like she would feel less burdened to have "mother" title back.

Idk, many more

My point:

You offered her insight to how your mind processes the topic of work roles

Do you actually NOW believe this is what she needed?

(You seem to be interpreting your interactions with her differently than usual, I wonder if you have something else stressing u)

[formflier]

 I wonder if there is a way to address these feelings?

 

Yep, she can write about them in an email to me,

 

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Also, it consistently appears the following are hot button topics:

-ROLES

-Your status as disabled

-her relationship with god being superior

Please always see these at hot button topics and make internal plan to proceed with greater than usual caution. 

She could very well just be having completely unrelated issue but just trying to press that button because... .IT WORKS!

[formflier]

(You seem to be interpreting your interactions with her differently than usual, I wonder if you have something else stressing u)

Yes yes and yes!  I AM intentionally being different with her.  And, again, not being argumentative with you, that is a decision I have made.  Not really from a place of stress but from a place of "Ok, this is where we are, she is being receptive to different ways, she is saying she wants to do things differently, so let's be different".

FF

[formflier]

She could very well just be having completely unrelated issue but just trying to press that button because, IT WORKS!

Yep, I think she became distressed and wanted "the old way".  I sort of doubled down on "the new way".

She can then work our her side of it.  That's her business.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

(You seem to be interpreting your interactions with her differently than usual, I wonder if you have something else stressing u)

Yes yes and yes!  I AM intentionally being different with her.  And... .again... .not being argumentative with you... .that is a decision I have made.  Not really from a place of stress but from a place of "Ok... this is where we are... she is being receptive to different ways... .she is saying she wants to do things differently... .so let's be different".

FF

Well then FF, I respectfully disagree with you then.

Your long winded email on your opinions, is NOT a way to seem unaffected, disinterested in drama.

Maybe reconsider

(You do not sound in wisemind.  Yes, you seem calm.  But u also seem triggered in ur email to her.  Maybe she too can see similar.)

There are other ways to allow her to sit with her feelings.  The method you employed re the restaurant seemed best.

[KateCat]

I'm missing something. What are you employment plans?

Are you having trouble letting go of the "formflier" identity?

Don't eminently capable guys in your general position (young, educated, experienced) tend to retrain for civilian jobs that make much more than $11/hr?

Without having any idea of your personal tastes, I can easily see you as a high-end litigation paralegal or adding a few technical classes to a paralegal certificate and running the "computer search and seizure" forensic arm of a Big Law firm. (I took such a class at my local community college and it was a blast.) The talented men I've known who pursue these and other paraprofessional possibilities rise quickly through the ranks.

Is there some way to reassure your wife that there's a future win/win for both of you in the employment arena, without holding out for the executive position that may not be the best fit now in your life?

[formflier]

I'm missing something. What are you employment plans?

My Cadillac choice is to have voc rehab pay for an MBA that would put me on equal footing with my civilian counterparts.  My advance degree is from the Naval War College.  It's a masters, but if you start having to explain how that is relevant to a company, you have already lost.

The stipend that goes along with that would also be more than my wife made at her $11 an hour job.

I do uber because it brings in some extra money, but primarily because of the contact with other people that are ready to talk.  Honestly, the money is secondary. 

I am doing extensive work on and in our real estate business (family thing) by divesting ourselves of several properties that have been problematic.  In the end, it is likely that the business will be about half the size as it is now.

Currently own 10 properties and think I will end up at 5 that I would like to keep.

Including in this is divesting myself through a legal settlement of any involvement with my wife's family in real estate.  Currently they are involved in two properties.  The believe themselves involved in many more, depending on the state of their claims.

I've got a fairly complex job situation.  I prefer to say "earn income" because it is true that for the last couple years I have earned a small amount of income from W-2. 

It is likely that 2015 taxes, when they are finally done, will reflect the largest yearly income that I or my family (wife and I) have EVER had in our lives.

I get it that none of that matters to her, she wants to focus on $11 an hour job.  That is her right to do so.

To create some clarity here, it is likely that our income for 2015 will be between $200k and $300k. 

For my wife's job this past year (crossing two tax years, but total income with one job) we are talking about $12-15k.

And she wants to focus a lot of time and attention on me earning $15 per hour at ubering.  Real number is closer to $30 per hour if I select the times that are best.

Thoughts?

FF

[Seoulsister]

To create some clarity here... .it is likely that our income for 2015 will be between $200k and $300k.  


With your income, is it necessary for your wife to work? Are there mental health benefits to her working or being a SAHM?

I may have missed this information, but why not fly for the airlines? Similar physical demands as ubering (I would imagine) but with significantly more pay.

[Sunfl0wer]

Nm, srry!

[KateCat]

The rationale for the VA funding MBA study would be that the 2015 income represents a one-time windfall and is not replicable?

Can an MBA be considered a sure thing for securing employment these days? My niece just received an MBA from Georgetown and still struggled at length to find a position.

[formflier]

Answering a couple posts here.

Can't hold a medical to fly due to disabilities.  Plus, that is a brutal lifestyle (IMO).  Before my VA rating knocked me out of holding a medical, I turned down a $20k per month flying position because of location an lifestyle.   At some point, it's not about the money.

Ubering is more about social connections than money.  Sure the money is ok.  Somehow it has been latched onto by my wife as "the" thing to change or talk about. 

No, a MBA is not a slam dunk for a job and it is not a slam dunk that I can get one through voc rehab. 

Voc rehab is to help provide me skills to be competitive in light of my disabilities and service issues.  It is independent of one year income.

My wife's reasons for working are numerous, changing and she rarely repeats or remembers reasons she has given in the past.

She is good at what she does but seems to take lower paying jobs and also wants income independent of me.

I have never asked her to get a job nor will I tell her to stop working.  I do thank her profusely for her efforts as a homemaker and back in career.

More later.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Your wife wants to work, but then she complains about working. She thinks you should work more at your Uber job. Maybe her whole issue is about hours worked, not money. Maybe she thinks it unfair that she's working full-time while you're doing a variety of things and in her mind, only working a few hours.

[formflier]

Your wife wants to work, but then she complains about working. She thinks you should work more at your Uber job. Maybe her whole issue is about hours worked, not money. Maybe she thinks it unfair that she's working full-time while you're doing a variety of things and in her mind, only working a few hours.

Yep,

That's pretty much it.  She understands 40 hours worked and a paycheck/paystubb and a W-2.  If you are "smart" and make investments or decisions that go well in real estate, that is not to be honored.

Working 10 hours painting walls is to be honored.

It's odd, way more is added to the bottom line by time spent evaluating deals and "making the right deal" (which in her mind is not work because I enjoy it).

Then, it becomes even more maddening because I actually enjoy the hammering and painting part more than the administration and deal making.  In other words, I would actually rather spend a couple hours to paint a wall and have a nice finished product to look at.

I've also realized that there is more $$ to be made by learning the parts of the real estate business that I don't like, so I spend more time on that. 

So, what I think it work, she claims I enjoy and what she claims is work, I enjoy.  Whatever.

FF