Self Objectification

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Objectifying oneself is a topic I recently started reading up on. Most of what I found lined up with my own thoughts and behaviors. (a lot of the same thing being said in several sources. It's not a perfect system for research, but it's all I got.)

I would say that throughout all of my relationships, I have always seen myself as an object first and a person a very distant second (quite possibly third or even fourth.) I don't know when it started, but I'd have to say that by the time I was somewhere at the start of High School this thought pattern formed. Over time it solidified into a mindset and part of my personality. It's all about outer appearances and judgement. I operate almost entirely on external validation, and have little concept of "self-worth" (sort of an oxymoron as I really can't see how I get to determine this.) When someone tells me about how much weight I lose for instance, I get angry because it doesn't matter-I'm not where I want to be in order to use my body to attain the things I want from people, because they'll want those things from me. "I'm not good enough" is really pretty much my identity. I'm aware how that comes off. I guess I don't really see any value on just *who* I am on the "inside." No one can see that part, not even people who know me. Make sense?

I wonder if this is the sort of mindset that makes it easy to get into an abusive relationship. Was the relationship with my BPDex even really abusive? Or was it just about right given that's about as good as I can do? Sort of a compromise. After all, look at her and look at me. She could get away with mistreating me because there's a huge imbalance.

Anyone think like this? I know it's not uncommon. Women are more likely to see themselves as an object for men's pleasure (they say because of the media,) people with BDD tend to place lots of importance on appearance too. So I wonder how you dealt with it. Did it sabotage relationships? If you did manage to start thinking differently, did it take a long time? Do you relapse? It's one thing to read about it in articles and what not, but it's another to know how actual people deal with this. What's it like to *not* think like this?

TL:)R:
Self-objectifying, and operating on external validation. Not so much a person as a thing to either be desired or discarded. That's me. Is/was it also you? How do/did you deal with this?

[Vatz]

Objectifying oneself is a topic I recently started reading up on. Most of what I found lined up with my own thoughts and behaviors. (a lot of the same thing being said in several sources. It's not a perfect system for research, but it's all I got.)

I would say that throughout all of my relationships, I have always seen myself as an object first and a person a very distant second (quite possibly third or even fourth.) I don't know when it started, but I'd have to say that by the time I was somewhere at the start of High School this thought pattern formed. Over time it solidified into a mindset and part of my personality. It's all about outer appearances and judgement. I operate almost entirely on external validation, and have little concept of "self-worth" (sort of an oxymoron as I really can't see how I get to determine this.) When someone tells me about how much weight I lose for instance, I get angry because it doesn't matter-I'm not where I want to be in order to use my body to attain the things I want from people, because they'll want those things from me. "I'm not good enough" is really pretty much my identity. I'm aware how that comes off. I guess I don't really see any value on just *who* I am on the "inside." No one can see that part, not even people who know me. Make sense?

I wonder if this is the sort of mindset that makes it easy to get into an abusive relationship. Was the relationship with my BPDex even really abusive? Or was it just about right given that's about as good as I can do? Sort of a compromise. After all, look at her and look at me. She could get away with mistreating me because there's a huge imbalance.

Anyone think like this? I know it's not uncommon. Women are more likely to see themselves as an object for men's pleasure (they say because of the media,) people with BDD tend to place lots of importance on appearance too. So I wonder how you dealt with it. Did it sabotage relationships? If you did manage to start thinking differently, did it take a long time? Do you relapse? It's one thing to read about it in articles and what not, but it's another to know how actual people deal with this. What's it like to *not* think like this?

TL:)R:
Self-objectifying, and operating on external validation. Not so much a person as a thing to either be desired or discarded. That's me. Is/was it also you? How do/did you deal with this?

[purekalm]

Hey Vatz,

"I'm not good enough" is really pretty much my identity. I'm aware how that comes off. I guess I don't really see any value on just *who* I am on the "inside." No one can see that part, not even people who know me. Make sense?

First of all,    It does make sense for your current line of thinking. Consider perhaps another way. Who you are on the inside dictates who you are on the outside. I know this is hard to believe. Jump ahead with me about fifty years and consider that your body is no longer young and there isn't as much ability to keep in top form even if you wanted. What do you have left? Your heart, mind, thoughts, emotions, memories, ideas. You have those now. You have focused solely on the outside, shutting out who you are to please others, and therefore please yourself, yet you're never truly pleased. You're in a constant state of frustration because you can never attain perfection, no one can. If you let that go, you're forced to figure out what's on the inside. What does Vatz think? What does Vatz want? Does Vatz think abuse is really ok? 

 

What's it like to *not* think like this?

This is all I can answer, from the standpoint of someone who hasn't completely believed the lie that the outside is everything. When I was a teenager I started to worry about it, only because my sisters did. I started to think that maybe I was wrong. But I knew and know better. You're more than what your body can do, or how it can look. That is a part of you, but only a part, and nowhere near the whole. I am me, with all my flaws physically as well as others. Sometimes the constant lie screaming in my face by society/bullies and the like threaten to make me waver, but I stand firm that a "great body" is not all any person has to offer.

I have had co dependency issues where I got validation for "fixing" or "helping" other people. I wasn't ok unless my advice or wisdom or bending over backwards to help was rewarded with a smile or thank you. I didn't know any other way to live. Slowly the cracks formed and I realized that I knew all along there was something wrong, I just didn't know what. I looked for help, articles, books, forums, and piece by piece it started coming together. The first thing to do was admit that I was wrong, that what I was doing was hurting myself. Dealing with deep depression, that was uh, difficult. I went through a lot of ups and downs, but eventually settled into the truth. My identity is not defined by my usefulness to others. I personally believe in God, and for me, my identity is in Him. I am His daughter, His beloved. Everyone's journey is different, and I hope that someone who does know exactly what you're going through can respond to help you on your way.

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[OutOfEgypt]

Here's another way to think about this category of "I'm not good enough" that may be helpful.  Talking about ourselves in these terms can come across as somewhat "victimy", and I don't feel they are helpful.  "Poor me... .I don't feel good enough about myself.  If I thought better of myself, I would be fixed (wrong)."  What I find more helpful and accurate is that I'm actually seeking to glorify myself, to justify my existence, through externals as a way to avoid actual mutual closeness and to maintain control.  Mutual emotional closeness is scary.  Justifying myself through some kind of external quality or performance, on the other hand, seems much less scary. It seems almost like something I can control.  So, we get stuck in a kind of "works-righteousness", almost a moralistic system, with rewards and punishments for succeeding or failing.  But all the while, we're still using that system as a means to avoid emotional closeness and vulnerability with anyone.  We're basically shutting others out.

[eeks]

What I find more helpful and accurate is that I'm actually seeking to glorify myself, to justify my existence, through externals as a way to avoid actual mutual closeness and to maintain control.  Mutual emotional closeness is scary.  Justifying myself through some kind of external quality or performance, on the other hand, seems much less scary. It seems almost like something I can control. 

I relate to this, OutOfEgypt.  I think there could be some important inquiries here for those of us who have perfectionistic (get love by being perfect/getting it right) or codependent (get love by being helpful/needed) survival strategies. 

And yes, I do think it has to do with control.  I used the word "get love" but I could just as easily have said "earn love"... .this is the problem right here... .love by definition doesn't depend on getting or earning, but kids who grow up with dysfunctional parents often don't learn that.  I would guess that the reason we develop control as a habit is because we learn not to trust people on some level.

I recently realized that the reason I fantasize about having perfect hair and a perfect body is because... .then I can get an amazing man and he will never leave me!  Control the situation and keep the connection/bond by being perfect.  Oh, and if I have a stellar career he will never leave me either because he can always rely on me to 'hold up my end' financially... .

But you see, none of this has to do with actual intimacy.  Without perfectionism, I'm metaphorically "naked" - my being (not doing, not accomplishments, not status, not anything else) is all I have to rely on.  And I don't think my parents ever felt OK or good enough themselves, so they could not convey that sense of security in the relationship to me. 

That makes me think of what you wrote, Vatz, about feeling more like an object than a person.  Are your parents perfectionists (whether they live up to their own standards or not, mine don't)?  I think perfectionism in parents - criticism, nagging, hostility, shaming, whatever form it takes - can make a child feel that their "personhood" doesn't matter, what matters in relationships is whether you meet the standard and guess what, you never do. 

Also, do you feel ready to think about ways to find new safe people to trust?  That's been part of the process for me.

eeks