BPDFamily.com

Over and over on this site, you see codependency.  I know I am.  :)on't know how bad it was before him, but it sure is pretty bad now.

So I am wondering two things:

1.  Would you say you are codependent?

2.  How long did it take you to get out?  

3.  :)o the non-codependents have a lower threshold for bull pucky then a codependent like me.

I would say I'm a recovering codep.

I left the r/s several times, my last exit was at the five year mark. That was a little over one year ago today.

There was a poster on Leaving board last year, I cannot remember the name. Had a r/s that was about 1 year or less, with all the signs we all talk about re; BPD and the dance we do with them. That poster sounded just exactly like all posters, and she was grieving the loss of the r/s just like us. She was questioning herself, like us, but she moved through the process pretty quickly. It was like she was revisiting what she knew was healthy and true already, rather than visiting new concepts for the first time. Her own self care was important to her already. So her process seemed easier and shorter. I don't see her here anymore,

she took what she needed, supported herself and gave some good support to others, and

moved on.

Every once in awhile someone like that pops up but not very often. She sounded basically very healthy to me, saw early on the relationship was unhealthy, stopped her part of the dance,  got support, and moved on. I don't think she had the codep leanings that I struggle with. So yes, I think people with less codependent leanings take care of themselves better and more naturally, it feels natural to leave something that painful or harmful. Self care seems foriegn and unnatural to a lot of folks on these boards, that didn't just happen due to one bad r/s... .That is likely going on our whole lives, the BPD r/s just highlights it.

You don't have to be codependent to get involved with a pwBPD, but I'd say you have to be codependent to actually STAY involved with one after the first few red flags pop up. Some here will disagree.

I asked a particular person here well versed in the disorder, very active and respected, if they thought all people who stayed in the r/s were codependent and he said something like 99.99%, if not 100%, were. I didn't think of myself as codependent at that time, but now I believe I was the classic blind case of one.

I guess there could be those who met their BPD, married very quickly (for whatever reason, which in itself may be a question), and then stayed out of a moral or religious belief. Perhaps they wouldn't all be codependent.

M

Personality Disorders are not on/off switches.

It's treats we all have, to a certain extent. Hence why the DSM says you have to fulfill certain criteria and these criteria has to be evaluated by a professional who can determine how relatively strong they are.

Regarding your questions

1. No. I've done a psychological evaluation for a different reason and I don't end up fulfilling the DSM criteria. I do have treats that point in that directions.

2. It's personality descriptions, you don't "get out", you can continuously work on changing your perspective on things. I believe the threshold is something that moves around depending on day, mood, situation. So the trigger is the same. Perhaps there is a difference in how the relationship is valued. By BPD has real struggles to get me to value her as she wants, as the only valuable thing I should have. While I can give the label as the most valuable thing. (All within reason)

Also I think there's a lot of confusion about what is meant by codependent. I've seen many threads with folks listing their credentials, degrees, accomplishments and worldly achievements as evidence that codependent leanings is not an issue for them. It's not about how successful you are in the world. My BPD ex and I have four university degrees between us, both professionals, we know how to take care of business THAT way. The confusion lies in learning to take care of our own emotional lives, especially in relationship.

My first marriage was to a very nice codep man. He was nice. I was nice. We were both two nice codependents. It was nauseating. We divorced. We are still nice, but if we'd have both known more about codep we may have saved that marriage. It wasn't ugly, it wasn't dramatic like BPD. We had a nice divorce. This crap does not allow for intimacy no matter how "nice" it is. Codependence doesn't have to be severe enough to meet a dsm dx criteria to cause problems in relationships.

Hi all,

Thanks for your responses so far!


This was kind of the leaning of the question and why I asked it.  I have seen a poster like this on this board and, more recently, asked beachgirl if she thought she was and she replied no.

So I am seeing that for a non that isn't codependent, the healing process or the 'get the heck out of this crazy situation' seems to occur faster than it does for those that are codependent.  Not saying that it *hurts* less for them, just that they are able to recognize and sometimes move through the process more quickly.

That's why I wanted to know how long they were with they pwBPD and how long it took them to get out.

When the r/s becomes more important than your own needs and when you feel you can't live without the other person, there is a big chance that you are engaging in co-dependent behaviors. In any love r/s, the other person is important but when you sacrifice your own health for the r/s, there are problems. I don't think co-dependency is an either/or kind of situation--there are degrees of codependency. I am not sure about the category itself because of this but there were times when I put up with way too much from my ex because I wanted to preserve the r/s--there were things we shared that I valued a great deal. I certainly never valued the abuse and tried hard to deal with it, e.g., learned techniques of communication, ways of confronting what was going on, trying to set limits. Finally, I knew there was no hope and ended the recycles because I knew the r/s would do me in. I think this took me longer than it should have. lol

Diotima

Sadly, I walked out on the fourth date. I think I was in a weak spot when I met her. Now, when life turned normal. Sometimes I'm having problems with physical contact with her. I know its bad and removes the validation she "needs" so bad... .

But yupp, I'm still here on the board. Trying to figure out if I'm going to be able to live my life with a person who's personality is disordered and will suck everything out of me. (That last phrase just feels so weird to type... )

I have stayed for 44 years, so How could I not be codependent, and my Therapist declared that I am codependent.  My therapist told me that codependent behaviors are not, and do not consist of a Mental Illness.  I have two therapists that say codependency is a learned behavior, and can be un-learned.  How long does it take to un-Learn?  This is a very actively moving target.  It really depends how severely codependent we are, and how fast we learn, or un-Learn.  I must say that some experts, and authors of well accepted books state that the World is a codependent place and tends to force all of us into codependent acts and behaviors that we must follow to be accepted.

    You would think that 44 years of living with a BPD would be a sign that I am about the most codependent person alive, however, I have always found my own life outside our marriage and relationship.  I have continuously gone to night school, and have many other personal persuits that do not include my UBPDW.  Another thing is she was never as serious of a BPD then she is today after having three Brain Surgeries about 12 years ago. Another thing is this BPD, and Codependency was not really widly known until recently.  It really is not fully widly known even today.  I read a book that included BPD and codependency in one group and leaned towards the fact that these disorders are actually the same.  Since all this is in constant change, and new processes that are resulting in good response at healing people are being developed daily, I believe there will be new revelations yet to come as applies to all of this.  After 42.5 years I discovered through my Therapist that I am codependent, and she is BPD.  That was a year and half ago or so, and I am still on the steep end of the learning curve.  I choose not to deny my own problem,however, and am trying to recover from Codependency.  This fact, may throw some light on the differences between Codependents, who will acknowledge and admit, and the BPD's, who will not accept, admit, and deny all traits while blaming others, therefore the BPD must in my mind be in a Mental Illness category, while the codependent may not fit the Mentally Ill description.

     I really must add another dimension to my theme here, and that is the existance of my three sons.  My decision to stay with my UBPDW was based mainly on the fact of her being a supurb Mother to my three sons, who to this day have never really seen the behaviors fully. they do know as adults now that she can be a little difficult to get along with, and their wives are not friendly with Mom, but few DILs are really friendly with their MIL.  I don't fully know, but I don't think the decision to stay because of the benefit to the kids was truely a complete codependent act.

Art

If we are going to be strict about definitions,

Neither BPD or Dependent personality are classified as an illness.  They fall under Axis II , and Axis I is where mental illness is categorized. Axis I is where we categorize a medical model illnesss, eg, the organism was sound and then a disease process acted upon it. We had a happy person who lhad a life event and slipped into depression.

Axis II is for those symptoms that are pervasive over a lifetime, may be developmentally or more systemically engendered, and  something likely has been missing or not working well and causing problems always. It's a disorder not an illness.

Axis I is for illness

Axis II is for disorder

In either Axis I or Axis II, wether an illness or a disorder, the symptoms cause problems in

the effective functioning or coping in life, generally getting in the way of either the ability to

take enjoyment or be effective in work or in love.

We all have some qualities or traits of DSM axis II  classifications, most of us don't meet the criteria for a diagnosis, though traits may be present that are troubling, and if addressed, can lead to better coping, increased well being and more enjoyment of life even with it's challenges.

Staying for kids may be the only reasonable coping strategy for some while the kids are young.

Staying in a painful r/s  to fix or rescue another adult, because we love them while we are reporting feeling unhappy and abused, but refusing (or lacking skills) to take steps to better our situation while blaming our unhappiness on another person... .that gets into a lot of codependence. If it's working it's healthy. If it's not working then somethings ... .well, not working... .eg, it's disordered or dysfunctional. Our happiness is OUR job.

I would say in my case I saw the red-flag but we had some crazy circumstances that had him move in with me after two months of dating.  Add in the mix, two kids that I grew to love and I was more tolerant than I have ever been in the past when dating.  But when he really flipped on the BPD actions after our engagement and I started seeing rages and was scared when I went home then I was out.  I'm almost three months out.  Yes it hurts, but I can see that the rollercoaster was never going to stop.  That I had to protect myself emotionally.  And I was the provider for him and his children.  His money seemed to always be allocated to something other than bills for the home he lived in.  I also had to protect myself financially.  Before him I dumped men at the moment I had that gut feeling.  I ignored it with him, I'm sure because of the mirroring, but at least I'm out now.  I learned a ton about myself the last two years.  Sadly, I don't know that he has grown any! 

I would say that it takes a codependent to want those incredible highs of BPD idealization.  I would think emotionally healthy people would not be attracted to it since the self esteem is intact.  It's people that are hurting that appreciate this kind of attention.  And that will put up with the devalue, in hopes of a return of the idealization.  I remember stbx telling me that he dated many women prior to me but hadn't made a connection like we did.  I visualize women running screaming into the night after a date with him while I was thinking, oh yeah, I like that guy.  

OH!  Oh my gosh, Rose Tiger!  I LITERALLY almost spit my tea out all over the keyboard!  Your last sentence above - it gave me such a belly laugh!      :)  I know in there is a level of sadness but today, it provided me with a much-needed laugh.  I hope I'm not offending.  But I like that the more that I heal, the more I think, "What the HECK was I thinking?" and your post brought it to light. 

 :)  I just want what those screaming into the night women have, I want to be a night screamer.  |iiii 

Me too!   :)     |iiii

Maybe we could have a Focus on the Family Night Screaming 5k.  I'm always reading on here to take care of yourself and exercise and validate yourself - that would encompass all three, no?   

My stbx and I dated  for 5 years before we  really committed.   We reycled a lot. After we broke up the last time before we committed, I dated a LOT. Lots of first dates. Few second dates. I just could not meet or find a gal that would  give me the connection that I had with my  BPD girl.

I just wanted that connection again, I dont know it it was codependency or not. My stbx wanted, demanded, committment. I finally gave it to her but she could not handle  it. Now, 1.5 years later  and facing a divorce, I  feel like a fool in going back to her.  I should have continued dating and found someone  more normal.

nobody

lol  5k... .ummm, maybe go to that place where they sell beer by the yard and have sing alongs?  Singing is exercising your lungs. 

Rose Tiger, your idea sounds so much better!  I only said 5k because it is exercise.  I'm sure though, that if I search the boards, somewhere, somewhere, I will find a post that says, "Take care of yourself:  Drink a buttload of beer while singing, ":)o Re Mi."   |iiii

I feel healthier just thinking about it!  :)

We all should of done that.     Maybe we were seaching for a dysfunctional connection and normal just didn't do it for us.  I think that was/is my biggest issue.

I, as well!   |iiii

Glad we could help each other out like this!

Levity is soo good... .


And nobody, I think you would be hard pressed to find people on this board who *haven't* felt like a fool sometimes... .

I understand this. I have been on the board not even a month but I started working on myself. By myself months ago. I was not a co-dep when I met my dstbxBPDw. As Rabbi Freidman says in his book 'Failure of Nerve' dumb luck and trauma made me a co-dep for a time and I just had to heal. I have not learned one new coping skill in my therapy. I have just shored up what my dstbxBPDw broke in me when she was able to exploit my better qualities openly because of kidney disease. She had lots of dumb luck.

I think the key to decide if you were (or became) is a matter of how you respond once you are in a place to deal with the problem.

I will tell you that after two weeks I already feel that I am just about beyond what this resource needed to do for me. I blew out of two other boards in two weeks each as I gained what I needed to know and moved on.

I'll stay around for a bit to flesh this out for some other traveler in the BPD seas, but I think some hit this board like I did and like the person described above. We know how to do this we just need to give our enemy a name and understand what it has been doing to us so we can react properly.

sheepdog, I think you asked interesting questions, but what did you and others learn from the answers?

Or said another way, if someone is or is not codependent, and heals more or less quickly, or recycles many times or not, what does that mean for nons? What does it mean to us if someone was able to move through his or her healing faster than I did?

The questions and responses made me think, but I'm not sure that they helped, if that makes sense. I'm just trying to get at the meaning I think is in here, not trying to diminish what is a really good set of questions -- and I'm glad you asked them.

 Rose Tiger and Sheep Dog, do the 5k Philadelphia Beer Run. You get both!

Here is what it means for me. Your healing is your healing. It is what it is and it takes as long as it takes. In the end you have to do it yourself, in your way, in your time.

This board, the articles, the book recommendations, they are but resources for your own healing. Some people are Mcgyver types and can leave a pwBPD with a paper clip, gum and a shoestring because they have the skills, experience and imagination. (once they wake up and figure out where they are)

Others need the manual, a teacher, a coach and a support system.

Neither is wrong. It just is.

If you are here you are on the field, ready to engage!  Good for you!  Get what you need out of this resource. No matter what You decide, You'll be better because you are in it for you and your happiness.

Thanks, Complex. That's sort of what I was getting at. I find the definitions, labels, DSM, cluster B, Axis this and that to be a rabbit hole for me. I wish it was helpful, but it brings out my perfectionism, I think.  lol  The checklist approach is a little too categorical and too clinical. That's why this site is so great, because it's people talking about experiences and feelings, which makes more sense and feels more real to me. Not that I don't appreciate the labels -- it helped me add 2+2 with my ex and having a label led me here. It's just that the labels and categories for codependence haven't made the healing that much more clear.

I do find myself wondering just how codependent I am, and what that means, and whether or not there's some way to know if I'm really, really codependent, just kinda codependent, or maybe reactively codependent because I married a pwBPD at an extremely vulnerable and somewhat confusing time in my life. Then had a baby. But I'm not sure why that matters except that it would probably help me chill a bit if I could say that I became codependent while in the r/s. I'm depressed right now and in an awful custody battle, which makes it hard to just get up and walk away. Being trapped in the legal stuff does force me to apply what I've learned, and not just treat healing as a curiosity because I know this is going to be a long, difficult, exhausting road. But I admit -- I want to think that if it weren't for the custody stuff, I could be well on my way through the healing jungle.

Hi livednlearned, no worries... .I know you're not trying to diminish the question.  We're all here to learn.   :)

The responses actually went way deeper than what I was thinking but I got much out of them, too.

I really wanted something like:

1.)  yes, I am codependent

2.)  it took me three years to finally end it

I wasn't making a judgement on who heals faster or who is still struggling or anything like that.  But as i said earlier in the thread, I have seen a few people on this board who come here torn up and seem to go through the stages waaaay faster than some.  More often than not, those same people really know themselves and what they stand for and what they will stand for.  

I was kind of holding a mirror up to *myself*.  Sometimes it seems I go two steps forward and two steps back while, after a few weeks, the people I mentioned only go forward.  

As far as your questions:  Or said another way, if someone is or is not codependent, and heals more or less quickly, or recycles many times or not, what does that mean for nons? What does it mean to us if someone was able to move through his or her healing faster than I did?

I think what it means for nons is an individual answer.  I don't think it really means anything if it took you a long time to get over it except that, well, it did.  But for ME, when I see someone like those mentioned (who I know have got to be in a world of hurt yet don't move backwards, I really listen especially hard to their thoughts and it is like a wake-up call to me:  "get your head out of your rear, sheepdog, and open your eyes!"

For you, it may be something totally different.  And that is perfectly okay.




My SO (not my pwBPD) bought me the book, "Codependent No More" and I am working through it.  There is page after page of lists that tell traits of people who are codependent.  You 'rate' yourself from 0 to 2 (2 being yes) on those traits.  I am a 2 on so many of them, it's not even funny.  

I think I had many of those traits before him but I think my relationship with him exacerbated the codependency.  A lot.  A lot a lot.

I have had other relationships where people hurt me and I took it.  And others where, like the ones that only move forward, i tell myself "not healthy, for me... .move on!"

You have soo much going on right now, livednlearned.  Custody battles are awful.  And a custody battle with a pwBPD -    .  I can not imagine.

I don't know that knowing I am codependent has made the healing *easier*... .in a lot of ways, I am digging deep and that is hard.  But I am glad I found out I am as I am conscious of it and working on it.

There is quote I heard:  "The race is long and in the end, it's only with yourself."  

if it takes you longer than others, so be it.   xoxo

Rose Tiger!  You hear that?

You in, ellil?   :)

I don't really like the taste of beer, though.   ?

 lol  Me neither, never touch the stuff (yuck).  I thought they could sneak me a nice glass of merlot while we are doing the sing along.

My deal is I'm addicted to addictions so it is hard to not 'live and let live' and give him a call.  My brain can think up all sorts of ways to reconnect.  It doesn't like being denied, it doesn't like hard things.  This is difficult.  I have to fight against what will make me temporarily feel good but is so bad for me in the long run. I'm really trying to put my well being first, which is a change for me.  I kind of like it but a part of me is really mad that I wasn't taught this growing up, to not get in so deep in the first place.

I believe im not codependent but ive certainly had a taste of it.

Before i met my ex, i wasnt looking for a r/s, wasnt bothered about a r/s, wasnt seeking anyone for one night stands. Was very comfortable in my surroundings, happy with the social circle i was in. Early 20s travelled some of europe and also spent 4 months in asia. Considered myself culturally sound, a good person with morals, happy with life in general.

After my ex i consider myself to be just that same person once again but with a few more lessons under my belt in terms of relationships, emotions, feelings not only for myself but for others.

I was a fairly wise and sound character before my ex, im now even more educated and wiser after my ex. Im happy and comfortable being single but also open if i bump into anyone should they take my fancy and vice versa.


It wasnt a comfortable ride or a pleasant journey coming out of that r/s where i became some-what codependent and accepting of abuse upon myself. The positives though are the lessons learnt, the knowledge that i take forward, the healthiness that is mine mentally, physically and emotionally. Sadly, others will continue their destructive ways as they havnt got the capability to be able to recognise 'what is healthy' or are unable to process that maturely if they do recognise their own destruction.

When I first came here I had spent the previous year immersing myself in that "rabbit hole" of BPD... .it was ridiculous.  A phD in BPD... .not great unless you are getting paid for it.  First trying to fix the relationship, then trying to figure out what the heck happened.  Gain some understanding. Time would have been better spent learning about my problems more.

I totally understand the need to understand what the happened.  It's natural we are looking for answers to what seems like riddle.  I would hear the advisors and mods pushing looking at us.  While knowing the facts of BPD is important there is a "rabbit hole" in it.  

Simple reason... .we can only control our own healing and the answer doesn't lie in BPD.  The minute we turn that focus back onto us is the minute the healing begins.  Our actions, our feelings, our intent, our plans, our hopes, our values, our boundaries, our issues this is where things get better.

You are doing alright... .take as much time as you need.  

Thankfully when I found out the name of the rabbit hole / abyss that was keeping me from coming up with an effective strategy to deal with the rapid and illogical cycles it only took me a week to learn all I needed to know and put it all together.

For me it was a lynchpin. The thing to crystallize the issue. No need to chase down the rabbit hole to figure out how to stay or how to fix my dstbxBPDw.

It was enough to know what was happening and why. Understanding her was never the point and if you think about all the posts on here. It is a futile exercise.  All I needed was information to modulate my reactions properly.  It is all about how I react. Not what she does.

Hmmmm that all about me thing again. Why go down the rabbit hole "Alice"?  Wonderland?

Hi

Labels ... .Just love them.

After reading this thread I went no I was not codependent on the ex, but then I went and sought out the actual definition of it ... .

Codependency (or codependence, interdependency ) is defined as a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition (as in an addiction to alcohol or heroin); and in broader terms, it refers to the dependence on the needs of or control of another


If you have been in a relationship with someone with BPD, simply put, I am  sure you were controlled or manipulated so the  question is somewhat mute. I am sure my ex has BPD as are the DOC and Psychiatrist with 30 years in the field. I am very sure she at times manipulated me like putty and at times controlled my actions and responses via various means from attack to push pull to abuse to what ever.

By the above I am not sure there can be any Non's who actually had a BPD partner who at some point were not Codependent.

Maybe I am reading this wrong ?

These rabbit holes as GM put it make my head hurt. If in some interaction you have with say a salesman who has some PD he gets you to buy something using what borders on some form of abuse or gas lighting, but is phrased a selling technique, does that make one co dependant ?

If I looked at this from another perspective and what was troubling me during the relationship, the issue of being controlled or manipulated, I wasn't even really aware of it whilst I was in the relationship. It happened and I am now well aware I was being controlled and manipulated and I suppose on some levels I was aware of the control being told at times what I was wearing was not good or who my friends should be ect ect, but this was not the overriding problem of my own relationship or why I stayed. Maybe it was ? Makes my head spin ... .I was manipulated to staying despite the abuse because I was codependent ? Maybe, but end result same thing.

Same ownership of my own role in the RS. Admitting I was being manipulated or controlled in some way is a no brainier when your in a BPD relationship. Push pull, love you hate you, idolize and then demean. Did I stay in part because I was being manipulated or controlled ? Yep, but lack of boundaries on my own part far more important, lack of knowing what the hell BPD was more important. Lack of maturity and thinking if I gave love and patience and kindness the abuse would stop or change more crucial.

Have my head down that rabbit hole and if I think about this issue too much I might get back on that treadmill or the spinning circle with the mouse in the cage and go round and round and round and round.

Maybe someone can shed some light on this and help ?

Is it possible to have been in a BPD RS without being codependent ? even for a short while as some have been ?

LOL!

I've been thinking about this A LOT, too funny! I had an identical conversation with my ex, and have seen where he's been and just recently where he is now. His friends always seemed surprised when they found out I was with him. I was the 'best he'd done'. I know now there's a real reason for that--anyone with sense would've run immediately.

I also realized through this that I always like them a little 'off' and I'm not sure why. I want to learn to be a discerning girl too.

Great question

I would definitely say that co-dependents are the worst affected by these break-ups

Our self-esteem is already very poor and these BPDs confirm the long held fear that we are damaged, worthless etc.

My exBPD had a few r/s after me but they all sacked him. I know now that these new partners probably had healthier self-esteem and would have spotted the red flags

I believe the extremity of our reaction is in direct proportion to our own poor mental health as much as anything else

I look back on my life and can spot a few mini-crisis that were perhaps indicators of the massive fall I had coming

I have had ruminations and obsessions about a few other people in my life as they pulled away or expressed a reduced interest in me. But I hadn't dug in as far with those people. This time I was in it for longer and genuinely thought they needed me so much that they could never leave me. It was toxic and weird, but it was a strong bond. Or so I thought.

Knowing that there were precursors to this devastation makes me more resolved to work on co-dependency and schema more than examining BPD any longer.

I have learned what I needed to about NPD/BPD and further information will not help me now. At some stage, we need to look at our own psychological short-comings and work to change what we can. I must admit, this is very hard and often quite scary for how close it can bring us to the edge of sanity. But it's work we need to perform.

BB12

I feel you completely. I knew I was in a bad place that prefaced this ugly r/s I found myself in. I in fact see where my own BPD traits contributed to my downward spiral into an abusive situation--I knew it was 'off', I knew I was initially reaching to make it what it was not (and conveniently forgot that fact along the way, convincing myself I was overthinking details and blaming my own shortcomings for producing the red flags). Ironically, I have been able to pick myself up by the bootstraps in certain avenues due to this experience in a way I was not able to on my own for some time prior. I think I needed out of a rut--the shock of it all woke me up in a way a healthy loving r/s might not have, unfortunately. It was a blessing and a curse.

I also don't want to continue to ruminate on my ex's dysfunction. I hate, HATE leaning into this pain I keep living in, knowing what I know now. My clinging immaturity wants an out, to be innocently reckless again and find a quick fix. But I've reached an impasse: grow or stay stuck. I don't thank him for this. But I guess I should be thankful I've busted out of what was bringing me down when I met him.

spot on Bandita: a strange gratitude emerges after a few major realisations about our part in the dance.

It almost feels that knowing what I now know, I can't make the mistakes I have been repeating in some sort of loop for a long time.

It is a kind of wake up, as you say.

For me now though, the change in myself cant come fast enough. I want to take this lesson as far as it goes, you know?

I want to be sure I learn as much as I can so as to guarantee myself a smoother ride from here on in

|iiii

bb12

I'd have to say IMHO that's not a 100% blanket statement that covers everybody. There certainly does seem to be a ginormous group here that agrees that they had codependency issues. And I can see a link between the needy, clingy pwBPD's and the serious rescuer nons.

I honestly don't think I had codep traits in the 30+ years of my life before my pwBPD. Once I met him, I did slowly change because the 99% good outweighed the 1% hiccups. And then the hiccups got worse. And then I did the whole frog-in-boiling-water thing. And it got to the point where I can say I was/looked like/was acting like a total codep. Hell, I was. Everything I did was about him and his recovery and keeping him stable. I didn't know all the BS was really who he was- I thought it was an easily fixable little glitch.

Maybe if he were low-functioning, I would have seen some different red flags that would have made me run for the hills. But there was no cutting, no instability, no rages, no clinginess.   I often wonder if our level of codependency corresponds to our pwBPD's level of functioning.

I will, however, take ownership of a lot of "wishful thinking" or just plain old bad choices.

My T says 'enough' of BPD and her. Throw away journals, books and web. Look inside and FEEL. Go in, meet and be with yourself and whatever moves in you. FEEL what's there and answers will come.

I say easier said than done. T smiles... .

As the 'understanding junkie' I am, I seem not get enough of it, so I hang around in books, here, a new dumpee-friend... .

This thread is good for me though. It twists my nose a bit but maybe not the 180 degrees needed.

1. I must say i have become insanly codependent. I ended up living a life where everything was about her. Spent every day thinking about how i could make her feel good so that i could feel good (keep her from blaming me for what she is not happy with).

Everything i did or was gonna do i asked for her approval.

I dont know if i was codependent before her, hard to tell.


2. Im working on becoming independent now... .but its real hard. Especially since im doing it alone. She is resisting and is not comfortable with the newer me.


Andy

hi sheepdog,

i dont consider myself a codependent. to be sure, i have traits, but it just doesnt check out to me. i dont know if it really works this way, but i think that if anything, i was 'more codependent' earlier in my life. i say that because i believe ive been with a few girls with BPD, and over time i adjusted to it, i guess. in other words, the idealization had a more powerful effect. the affection was addictive. i would believe and internally the garbage one of my particular exes told me, and id believe it was me, and id do everything in my power to change it, with no effect but further losing myself.

someone put it to me really well on this board a while back, suggesting that i kind of look for... .not necessarily "project relationships", but someone i could "teach or impart some reason upon." thats accurate, and its a codependent tendency, id say.

the difference is, though largely buried, i feel more or less intact, self esteem wise. with the ex that led me here, i WAS uncomfortable, i WAS turned off, and i even, for the first time in my life, at least managed to try to break up with her, probably a thousand times in the relationship, which was one of my mistakes. but as far as self esteem, one of my best friends is codependent. the kind of childhood background that is usually present with a codependent just isnt there with me, and frankly, im not really sure where i developed the tendencies i have. i think it was, as suggested to me, a "confluence of events". you date a crazy person, odds go up youll date another.

its also kind of difficult to sort out what i rationally know and believe, and what my body interprets. i dont think im the answer for anyone. ... .but i act like i am. i can give you a great picture of a healthy, happy, normal relationship, but its clear to me that until now, my mind has equated how much garbage im willing to tolerate, with how appreciable i am. and ill be damned if a pwBPD isnt great at stoking that, telling you how great and patient you are, how sorry and remorseful they are, how much better they want to treat you, etc. i also really like to promote schwings theory that, essentially, the whole blow out fight followed with a really touching make up is a very addictive dynamic, you feel each time as if your relationship has matured and made progress. and for YOU it has. but for your BPD counterpart, such things are impossible.

one of my major errors was also that it doesnt seem like my straw will ever snap. i kept waiting for it to, and knew someday it would, but id move the goal post back every time she crossed a line.

so no, i dont think 100% of "nons" are codependent by any means, however im willing to bet every last person who has been with a pwBPD for a significant amount of time certainly has some traits, perhaps some stronger than others. but probably EVERYONE has "some traits". and truthfully, so many of us stayed for noble, albeit misguided reasons. i could list off about a hundred verses in the bible that i still have trouble reconciling, in the sense of "would i have done anything differently?"

OMG careman. We might have the same therapist! LOL

I am doing schema therapy now: finding the thought behind the feeling and then challenging the thought

so weird to admit it is hard to FEEL. I really have no clue to do as he says.

The reading indicates we blocked feelings as part of our own childhood trauma. i know the key to all of this is in address that, but I'm really bad at it.

And I keep going back to understanding as well

BB12

Codependency is not always a constant.After my wife died  I met & subconsciously thought I could fix my BPD(not knowing she was a BPD) because I couldn't fix my wife's illness.

I notice as I get older,have learned about BPD,have got used to living alone, I'm not as, or maybe not even codependent at all.

It is shaped by a lot of factors from birth on.

We can learn from  our  experiences and lessen codependency & maybe even eliminate it with our knowledge of ourself. (This site  has been a huge factor in this)

Yeah, sometimes I do think I should have moved on more by now. . .I feel a bit stuck sometimes.  But my r/s was for 13 years (been out just over a year, NC 4 months) and my ex was also a HF person who didn't rage, sulk, do the silent treatment etc etc. . .it was far more covert but when it came out in the end hit me like a ton of bricks and I have been left with countless questions and no answers. . .and that takes some processing   I agree with Mauser, I 'felt' codependent with him at the end. . .helpless, fearful of losing him, didn't think I could cope alone but I dug deep.

I think it's more personal issues that has made this even more difficult.  I'm 48 and personally have found it difficult to now find myslef single.  I am also unemployed at the moment and have far too much thinking time, and other worries that all contribute.

I am not what I call a "traditional co-dependent".

I don't have a pattern/history of co-dependent relationships. Prior to this relationship, I didn't have problems walking away from unhealthy situations. However, due to circumstances that occurred in my private life during the relationship I became overly dependent on my ex for everything which lead to co-dependent behaviors on my part. The longer the relationship progressed, the worse my co-dependence became.

It's now a year out. The situations that lead to the co-dependence have passed. The relationship has passed. What is left is a stronger, updated version of myself from prior to those four years. Someone who can and does walk away from unhealthy when he sees it.

I wonder if there is such a thing as "Situational Co-Dependence" as opposed to "Ingrained Co-Dependence"?

I'm fairly certain that mine was more situational than anything else. Doesn't mean that lots of self work and therapy haven't been needed. I still did the co-dependence thing. I still had to heal myself from it.

I am codependent in some ways and not in others, just due to experiences and growing out of some of it through therapy.

I think it also tends to depend on how I am feeling and other things that are going on.

(Most of the time I am strong, able to keep it together, and completely content being alone or being in a casual relationship with boundaries.  If things are stressful at work or with my children or with my BPD mom, I tend to get clingy with my relationship because I feel wimpy at the core when other things are falling apart around me).

I think feeling vulnerable resorts me back to a child around a BPD mother, I start feeling lots of difficult negative things that I don't like to feel or revisit.  Sometimes I with I could just forget my entire childhood and start all over from scratch to erase all the bad learned memories and behavior.

Reading about courtship and relationship models stemming from attachment patterns, I have come to understand that I (ambivalent attachment & codependent traits) want to reach the 'final destination' of interdependence in a relationship really fast.

Healthy people with healthy boundaries let people in step-by-step, and let themselves take their time. And the ultimate proof of acceptance and letting someone in all the way, is opening up to have sex. It can be perceived by a guy like me, as her being uninterested.

A BPD with their lack of boundaries, is 'open' for a deep connection right away, and have a short pathway to engage in sex. This fits perfect with my 'courtship fast-track wants and needs'.

I believe now that fast-tracks and strong passion is a red-flag if a long-term healthy parthership is sought for.

/Careman

1.  Would you say you are codependent?

- Hmm, not especially. I have some traits, but my T doesn't think I am and I don't fulfil many of the criteria. I'd say I can be in some circumstances, but I wouldn't categorise myself either as codependent or a caretaker.

2.  How long did it take you to get out?

- The relationship lasted 18 months from start to finish, but things seemed perfectly normal and reasonable to me until nine months in (I'd been split black around 4-5 months in but I had put it down to a disagreement and misunderstanding - it was only with hindsight I realised what it was). So the first time I knew something was BADLY wrong was 9 months before I left him. After that incident, which was splitting black and jealous rage, I decided that the previous 9 months had been ok so I'd keep an eye on it and leave if it happened again. I didn't click that he had BPD until 3 months after that (i.e. 6 months before I left) when he discarded me again, and at that time I myself was having an emotional breakdown due to being abused by my ex husband and learning my mother was terminally ill. I just didn't feel able to resist the recycle, and I felt I badly needed the support even though I knew it was unstable support. Everything just coincided for me at a time I didn't feel strong enough to resist the enormous charm attempt. When I regained my strength I walked away.

So in short, from realising something was badly wrong with our relationship, it took me 9 months to leave it. If it hadn't been for my own circumstances, I'd have left 3 months after things went wrong, during the second discard.

I think this is just down to my character - I attach very strongly to people, and find it very traumatic to detach, so in order to get through the aftermath I need to *know* beyond a shadow of a doubt that I was treated badly, that it would never have got better, and that it was the right decision. If there's any doubt I torture myself about the fact that I didn't give it enough of a chance, and I'm likely to keep going back.

Oh, also I've always found that in the past, it's taken me between a third and a half the length of time a relationship has lasted for me to get over it. I've found this relationship *by far* the most painful to move on from, but again I think that's to do with my current circumstances. For some reason I seem to be moving quite slowly through the process this time, but I'm still only just over three months out, so guess I should give myself a break. I think the difficulty is that I'm trauma bonded, so it's not like a straight-forward breakup. I do feel I'm making good progress though, and if things carry on this way with NC I expect to be completely over it by the end of the year.

The title of this thread could've been "do all nons struggle with bad boundaries?" Because if you're a little bit codependent or a lot codependent, what does that really mean? I found it more helpful to think about the way I manage boundaries (or don't), and to focus on those trouble spots.

The following is from a book called "How to be an adult." There's a section called "Maintaining Personal Boundaries" that includes this checklist on boundaries in relationships.

When your boundaries are intact in a relationship, you:

1. Have clear preferences and act on them

2. Recognize when you are happy/unhappy

3. Acknowledge moods and circumstances around you while remaining centered (live actively)

4. Do more when that gets results

5. Trust your own intuition while being open to others' opinions

6. Live optimistically while co-working on change

7. Are only satisfied if you are thriving

8. Are encouraged by sincere ongoing change for the better

9. Have excited interest in self-enhancing hobbies and projects

10. Have a personal standard that, albeit flexible, applies to everyone and ask for accountability

11. Appreciate feedback and can distinguish it from attempts to manipulate

12. Relate only to partners with whom mutual love is possible

13. Are strongly affected by your partner's behavior and take it as information

14. Integrate sex so that you can enjoy it but never at the cost of your integrity

15. See your partner as stimulating your excitement

16. Let yourself feel anger, say "ouch!" and embark on a program of change

17. Act out of agreement and negotiation

18. Only do favors you choose to do (can say no)

19. Honor intuitions and distinguish them from wishes

20. Insist others' boundaries be as safe as your own

21. Mostly feel secure and clear

22. Are always aware of choices

23. Are living a life that mostly approximates what you always wanted for yourself

24. Decide how, to what extent, and how long you will be committed

25. Protect your private matters without having to lie or be surreptitious

(the above 25 points define "self-parenting"

When you give up your boundaries in a relationship, you:

1. Are unclear about your preferences

2. Do not notice unhappiness since enduring is your concern

3. Alter your behavior, plans, or opinions to fit the current moods or circumstances of another (live reactively)

4. Do more and more for less and less

5. Take as truth the most recent opinion you have heard

6. Live hopefully while wishing and waiting

7. Are satisfied if you are coping and surviving

8. Let the other's minimal improvements maintain your stalemate

9. Have few hobbies because you have no attention span for self-directed activity

10. Make exceptions for this person for things you would not tolerate in anyone else and accept alibis

11. Are manipulated by flattery so that you lose objectivity

12. Keep trying to create intimacy with a narcissist

13. Are so strongly affected by another that obsession results

14. Will forsake every personal limit to get sex or the promise of it

15. See your partner as causing your excitement

16. Feel hurt and victimized but not angry

17. Act out of compliance and compromise

18. Do favors that you inwardly resist (cannot say no)

19. Disregard intuition in favor of wishes

20. Allow your partner to abuse your children or friends

21. Mostly feel afraid and confused

22. Are enmeshed in a drama that unfolds beyond your control

23. Are living a life that is not yours, and that seems unalterable

24. Commit yourself for as long as the other needs you to be committed that way (no bottom line)

25. Believe you have no right to secrets

(the above 25 points define "co-dependency)