POLL: Would you say you became codependent?

[sheepdog]

Codependent relationships are a specific type of dysfunctional helping relationship where one person supports or enables the other person’s addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement.

People with a predisposition to be a codependent enabler often find themselves in relationships where their primary role is that of rescuer, supporter, and confidante. These helper types are often dependent on the other person's poor functioning to satisfy their own emotional needs.

For the enabler a codependent relationship fulfills a strong drive to feel needed. Some enablers always need to be in a relationship because they feel lost or lonely when they’re by themselves.  Codependents are often inherently afraid of being rejected or abandoned, even if they can function on their own, and in these cases the enabling behavior is a way to mitigate fears of abandonment.  Codependent enablers often lack in self-worth and define their worth through another's eyes, thoughts, or views of them. They need other people to validate them to feel okay about themselves and without this, they are unable to find their own worth or identity.  For some, the codependent relationship will satisfy the need to feel competent and low self-esteem is boosted by comparing oneself to the dysfunctional partner.

For the enabled person the dependence on the enabler is equally profound. In a codependent relationship, their poor functioning essentially brings them much needed love, care, and concern from an enabler and they are accepted as they are with their addiction, or poor mental or physical health.  The enabler's consistent support reduces the outside pressures on the enabled person to mature, or advance their life skills or confidence.  And, due to their below average functioning, the enabled person may have few relationships as close as their relationship with the enabler. This makes them highly dependent on the enabler to satisfy needs normally met by multiple close relationships.

It is this high degree of mutual, unhealthy dependence on the part of both the enabler and the enabled that makes the relationship codependent and resistant to change. It is often very hard for either person to end a relationship even when the relationship is painful or abusive. It is not unusual for one or both to feel trapped.

Codependency is a specific condition that is characterized by preoccupation and extreme dependence — emotionally, socially and sometimes physically — on another person".

This type and degree of dependency on another person is destructive to both parties. Codependence is a quite different matter from interdependence.

Read the complete article here:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships

Over and over on this site, you see codependency.  I know I am.  :)on't know how bad it was before him, but it sure is pretty bad now.

So I am wondering two things:

1.  Would you say you are codependent?

2.  How long did it take you to get out?  

3.  :)o the non-codependents have a lower threshold for bull pucky then a codependent like me.

[MaybeSo]

I would say I'm a recovering codep.

I left the r/s several times, my last exit was at the five year mark. That was a little over one year ago today.

There was a poster on Leaving board last year, I cannot remember the name. Had a r/s that was about 1 year or less, with all the signs we all talk about re; BPD and the dance we do with them. That poster sounded just exactly like all posters, and she was grieving the loss of the r/s just like us. She was questioning herself, like us, but she moved through the process pretty quickly. It was like she was revisiting what she knew was healthy and true already, rather than visiting new concepts for the first time. Her own self care was important to her already. So her process seemed easier and shorter. I don't see her here anymore,

she took what she needed, supported herself and gave some good support to others, and

moved on.

Every once in awhile someone like that pops up but not very often. She sounded basically very healthy to me, saw early on the relationship was unhealthy, stopped her part of the dance,  got support, and moved on. I don't think she had the codep leanings that I struggle with. So yes, I think people with less codependent leanings take care of themselves better and more naturally, it feels natural to leave something that painful or harmful. Self care seems foriegn and unnatural to a lot of folks on these boards, that didn't just happen due to one bad r/s... .That is likely going on our whole lives, the BPD r/s just highlights it.

[ellil]

You don't have to be codependent to get involved with a pwBPD, but I'd say you have to be codependent to actually STAY involved with one after the first few red flags pop up. Some here will disagree.

I asked a particular person here well versed in the disorder, very active and respected, if they thought all people who stayed in the r/s were codependent and he said something like 99.99%, if not 100%, were. I didn't think of myself as codependent at that time, but now I believe I was the classic blind case of one.

I guess there could be those who met their BPD, married very quickly (for whatever reason, which in itself may be a question), and then stayed out of a moral or religious belief. Perhaps they wouldn't all be codependent.

M

[draft]

Personality Disorders are not on/off switches.

It's treats we all have, to a certain extent. Hence why the DSM says you have to fulfill certain criteria and these criteria has to be evaluated by a professional who can determine how relatively strong they are.

Regarding your questions

1. No. I've done a psychological evaluation for a different reason and I don't end up fulfilling the DSM criteria. I do have treats that point in that directions.

2. It's personality descriptions, you don't "get out", you can continuously work on changing your perspective on things. I believe the threshold is something that moves around depending on day, mood, situation. So the trigger is the same. Perhaps there is a difference in how the relationship is valued. By BPD has real struggles to get me to value her as she wants, as the only valuable thing I should have. While I can give the label as the most valuable thing. (All within reason)

[MaybeSo]

Also I think there's a lot of confusion about what is meant by codependent. I've seen many threads with folks listing their credentials, degrees, accomplishments and worldly achievements as evidence that codependent leanings is not an issue for them. It's not about how successful you are in the world. My BPD ex and I have four university degrees between us, both professionals, we know how to take care of business THAT way. The confusion lies in learning to take care of our own emotional lives, especially in relationship.

My first marriage was to a very nice codep man. He was nice. I was nice. We were both two nice codependents. It was nauseating. We divorced. We are still nice, but if we'd have both known more about codep we may have saved that marriage. It wasn't ugly, it wasn't dramatic like BPD. We had a nice divorce. This crap does not allow for intimacy no matter how "nice" it is. Codependence doesn't have to be severe enough to meet a dsm dx criteria to cause problems in relationships.

[sheepdog]

Hi all,

Thanks for your responses so far!

I would say I'm a recovering codep.

I left the r/s several times, my last exit was at the five year mark. That was a little over one year ago today.

There was a poster on Leaving board last year, I cannot remember the name. Had a r/s that was about 1 year or less, with all the signs we all talk about re; BPD and the dance we do with them. That poster sounded just exactly like all posters, and she was grieving the loss of the r/s just like us. She was questioning herself, like us, but she moved through the process pretty quickly. It was like she was revisiting what she knew was healthy and true already, rather than visiting new concepts for the first time. Her own self care was important to her already. So her process seemed easier and shorter. I don't see her here anymore,

she took what she needed, supported herself and gave some good support to others, and

moved on.

Every once in awhile someone like that pops up but not very often. She sounded basically very healthy to me, saw early on the relationship was unhealthy, stopped her part of the dance,  got support, and moved on. I don't think she had the codep leanings that I struggle with. So yes, I think people with less codependent leanings take care of themselves better and more naturally, it feels natural to leave something that painful or harmful. Self care seems foriegn and unnatural to a lot of folks on these boards, that didn't just happen due to one bad r/s... .That is likely going on our whole lives, the BPD r/s just highlights it.

This was kind of the leaning of the question and why I asked it.  I have seen a poster like this on this board and, more recently, asked beachgirl if she thought she was and she replied no.

So I am seeing that for a non that isn't codependent, the healing process or the 'get the heck out of this crazy situation' seems to occur faster than it does for those that are codependent.  Not saying that it *hurts* less for them, just that they are able to recognize and sometimes move through the process more quickly.

That's why I wanted to know how long they were with they pwBPD and how long it took them to get out.

[diotima]

When the r/s becomes more important than your own needs and when you feel you can't live without the other person, there is a big chance that you are engaging in co-dependent behaviors. In any love r/s, the other person is important but when you sacrifice your own health for the r/s, there are problems. I don't think co-dependency is an either/or kind of situation--there are degrees of codependency. I am not sure about the category itself because of this but there were times when I put up with way too much from my ex because I wanted to preserve the r/s--there were things we shared that I valued a great deal. I certainly never valued the abuse and tried hard to deal with it, e.g., learned techniques of communication, ways of confronting what was going on, trying to set limits. Finally, I knew there was no hope and ended the recycles because I knew the r/s would do me in. I think this took me longer than it should have.

Diotima

[draft]

That's why I wanted to know how long they were with they pwBPD and how long it took them to get out.

Sadly, I walked out on the fourth date. I think I was in a weak spot when I met her. Now, when life turned normal. Sometimes I'm having problems with physical contact with her. I know its bad and removes the validation she "needs" so bad... .

But yupp, I'm still here on the board. Trying to figure out if I'm going to be able to live my life with a person who's personality is disordered and will suck everything out of me. (That last phrase just feels so weird to type... )

[artman.1]

I have stayed for 44 years, so How could I not be codependent, and my Therapist declared that I am codependent.  My therapist told me that codependent behaviors are not, and do not consist of a Mental Illness.  I have two therapists that say codependency is a learned behavior, and can be un-learned.  How long does it take to un-Learn?  This is a very actively moving target.  It really depends how severely codependent we are, and how fast we learn, or un-Learn.  I must say that some experts, and authors of well accepted books state that the World is a codependent place and tends to force all of us into codependent acts and behaviors that we must follow to be accepted.

    You would think that 44 years of living with a BPD would be a sign that I am about the most codependent person alive, however, I have always found my own life outside our marriage and relationship.  I have continuously gone to night school, and have many other personal persuits that do not include my UBPDW.  Another thing is she was never as serious of a BPD then she is today after having three Brain Surgeries about 12 years ago. Another thing is this BPD, and Codependency was not really widly known until recently.  It really is not fully widly known even today.  I read a book that included BPD and codependency in one group and leaned towards the fact that these disorders are actually the same.  Since all this is in constant change, and new processes that are resulting in good response at healing people are being developed daily, I believe there will be new revelations yet to come as applies to all of this.  After 42.5 years I discovered through my Therapist that I am codependent, and she is BPD.  That was a year and half ago or so, and I am still on the steep end of the learning curve.  I choose not to deny my own problem,however, and am trying to recover from Codependency.  This fact, may throw some light on the differences between Codependents, who will acknowledge and admit, and the BPD's, who will not accept, admit, and deny all traits while blaming others, therefore the BPD must in my mind be in a Mental Illness category, while the codependent may not fit the Mentally Ill description.

     I really must add another dimension to my theme here, and that is the existance of my three sons.  My decision to stay with my UBPDW was based mainly on the fact of her being a supurb Mother to my three sons, who to this day have never really seen the behaviors fully. they do know as adults now that she can be a little difficult to get along with, and their wives are not friendly with Mom, but few DILs are really friendly with their MIL.  I don't fully know, but I don't think the decision to stay because of the benefit to the kids was truely a complete codependent act.

Art

[MaybeSo]

If we are going to be strict about definitions,

Neither BPD or Dependent personality are classified as an illness.  They fall under Axis II , and Axis I is where mental illness is categorized. Axis I is where we categorize a medical model illnesss, eg, the organism was sound and then a disease process acted upon it. We had a happy person who lhad a life event and slipped into depression.

Axis II is for those symptoms that are pervasive over a lifetime, may be developmentally or more systemically engendered, and  something likely has been missing or not working well and causing problems always. It's a disorder not an illness.

Axis I is for illness

Axis II is for disorder

In either Axis I or Axis II, wether an illness or a disorder, the symptoms cause problems in

the effective functioning or coping in life, generally getting in the way of either the ability to

take enjoyment or be effective in work or in love.

We all have some qualities or traits of DSM axis II  classifications, most of us don't meet the criteria for a diagnosis, though traits may be present that are troubling, and if addressed, can lead to better coping, increased well being and more enjoyment of life even with it's challenges.

[MaybeSo]

Staying for kids may be the only reasonable coping strategy for some while the kids are young.

Staying in a painful r/s  to fix or rescue another adult, because we love them while we are reporting feeling unhappy and abused, but refusing (or lacking skills) to take steps to better our situation while blaming our unhappiness on another person... .that gets into a lot of codependence. If it's working it's healthy. If it's not working then somethings ... .well, not working... .eg, it's disordered or dysfunctional. Our happiness is OUR job.

[beachgirl009]

I would say in my case I saw the  but we had some crazy circumstances that had him move in with me after two months of dating.  Add in the mix, two kids that I grew to love and I was more tolerant than I have ever been in the past when dating.  But when he really flipped on the BPD actions after our engagement and I started seeing rages and was scared when I went home then I was out.  I'm almost three months out.  Yes it hurts, but I can see that the rollercoaster was never going to stop.  That I had to protect myself emotionally.  And I was the provider for him and his children.  His money seemed to always be allocated to something other than bills for the home he lived in.  I also had to protect myself financially.  Before him I dumped men at the moment I had that gut feeling.  I ignored it with him, I'm sure because of the mirroring, but at least I'm out now.  I learned a ton about myself the last two years.  Sadly, I don't know that he has grown any! 

[Rose Tiger]

I would say that it takes a codependent to want those incredible highs of BPD idealization.  I would think emotionally healthy people would not be attracted to it since the self esteem is intact.  It's people that are hurting that appreciate this kind of attention.  And that will put up with the devalue, in hopes of a return of the idealization.  I remember stbx telling me that he dated many women prior to me but hadn't made a connection like we did.  I visualize women running screaming into the night after a date with him while I was thinking, oh yeah, I like that guy.  

[sheepdog]

I would say that it takes a codependent to want those incredible highs of BPD idealization.  I would think emotionally healthy people would not be attracted to it since the self esteem is intact.  It's people that are hurting that appreciate this kind of attention.  And that will put up with the devalue, in hopes of a return of the idealization.  I remember stbx telling me that he dated many women prior to me but hadn't made a connection like we did.  I visualize women running screaming into the night after a date with him while I was thinking, oh yeah, I like that guy.  

OH!  Oh my gosh, Rose Tiger!  I LITERALLY almost spit my tea out all over the keyboard!  Your last sentence above - it gave me such a belly laugh!        I know in there is a level of sadness but today, it provided me with a much-needed laugh.  I hope I'm not offending.  But I like that the more that I heal, the more I think, "What the HECK was I thinking?" and your post brought it to light. 

[Rose Tiger]

   I just want what those screaming into the night women have, I want to be a night screamer.   

[sheepdog]

  I just want what those screaming into the night women have, I want to be a night screamer.   

Me too!        

Maybe we could have a Focus on the Family Night Screaming 5k.  I'm always reading on here to take care of yourself and exercise and validate yourself - that would encompass all three, no?   

[nobody]

My stbx and I dated  for 5 years before we  really committed.   We reycled a lot. After we broke up the last time before we committed, I dated a LOT. Lots of first dates. Few second dates. I just could not meet or find a gal that would  give me the connection that I had with my  BPD girl.

I just wanted that connection again, I dont know it it was codependency or not. My stbx wanted, demanded, committment. I finally gave it to her but she could not handle  it. Now, 1.5 years later  and facing a divorce, I  feel like a fool in going back to her.  I should have continued dating and found someone  more normal.

nobody

[Rose Tiger]

  I just want what those screaming into the night women have, I want to be a night screamer.   

Me too!        

Maybe we could have a Focus on the Family Night Screaming 5k.  I'm always reading on here to take care of yourself and exercise and validate yourself - that would encompass all three, no?   

  5k... .ummm, maybe go to that place where they sell beer by the yard and have sing alongs?  Singing is exercising your lungs. 

[sheepdog]

Rose Tiger, your idea sounds so much better!  I only said 5k because it is exercise.  I'm sure though, that if I search the boards, somewhere, somewhere, I will find a post that says, "Take care of yourself:  Drink a buttload of beer while singing, ":)o Re Mi."   

[Rose Tiger]

I feel healthier just thinking about it! 

[Rose Tiger]

My stbx and I dated  for 5 years before we  really committed.   We reycled a lot. After we broke up the last time before we committed, I dated a LOT. Lots of first dates. Few second dates. I just could not meet or find a gal that would  give me the connection that I had with my  BPD girl.

I just wanted that connection again, I dont know it it was codependency or not. My stbx wanted, demanded, committment. I finally gave it to her but she could not handle  it. Now, 1.5 years later  and facing a divorce, I  feel like a fool in going back to her.  I should have continued dating and found someone  more normal.

nobody

We all should of done that.     Maybe we were seaching for a dysfunctional connection and normal just didn't do it for us.  I think that was/is my biggest issue.

[sheepdog]

I feel healthier just thinking about it! 

I, as well!   

Glad we could help each other out like this!

Levity is soo good... .


And nobody, I think you would be hard pressed to find people on this board who *haven't* felt like a fool sometimes... .

[ComplexOpus]

I would say I'm a recovering codep.

I left the r/s several times, my last exit was at the five year mark. That was a little over one year ago today.

There was a poster on Leaving board last year, I cannot remember the name. Had a r/s that was about 1 year or less, with all the signs we all talk about re; BPD and the dance we do with them. That poster sounded just exactly like all posters, and she was grieving the loss of the r/s just like us. She was questioning herself, like us, but she moved through the process pretty quickly. It was like she was revisiting what she knew was healthy and true already, rather than visiting new concepts for the first time. Her own self care was important to her already. So her process seemed easier and shorter. I don't see her here anymore,

she took what she needed, supported herself and gave some good support to others, and

moved on.

Every once in awhile someone like that pops up but not very often. She sounded basically very healthy to me, saw early on the relationship was unhealthy, stopped her part of the dance,  got support, and moved on. I don't think she had the codep leanings that I struggle with. So yes, I think people with less codependent leanings take care of themselves better and more naturally, it feels natural to leave something that painful or harmful. Self care seems foriegn and unnatural to a lot of folks on these boards, that didn't just happen due to one bad r/s... .That is likely going on our whole lives, the BPD r/s just highlights it.

I understand this. I have been on the board not even a month but I started working on myself. By myself months ago. I was not a co-dep when I met my dstbxBPDw. As Rabbi Freidman says in his book 'Failure of Nerve' dumb luck and trauma made me a co-dep for a time and I just had to heal. I have not learned one new coping skill in my therapy. I have just shored up what my dstbxBPDw broke in me when she was able to exploit my better qualities openly because of kidney disease. She had lots of dumb luck.

I think the key to decide if you were (or became) is a matter of how you respond once you are in a place to deal with the problem.

I will tell you that after two weeks I already feel that I am just about beyond what this resource needed to do for me. I blew out of two other boards in two weeks each as I gained what I needed to know and moved on.

I'll stay around for a bit to flesh this out for some other traveler in the BPD seas, but I think some hit this board like I did and like the person described above. We know how to do this we just need to give our enemy a name and understand what it has been doing to us so we can react properly.

[livednlearned]

sheepdog, I think you asked interesting questions, but what did you and others learn from the answers?

Or said another way, if someone is or is not codependent, and heals more or less quickly, or recycles many times or not, what does that mean for nons? What does it mean to us if someone was able to move through his or her healing faster than I did?

The questions and responses made me think, but I'm not sure that they helped, if that makes sense. I'm just trying to get at the meaning I think is in here, not trying to diminish what is a really good set of questions -- and I'm glad you asked them.

[ellil]

 Rose Tiger and Sheep Dog, do the 5k Philadelphia Beer Run. You get both!

[ComplexOpus]

Here is what it means for me. Your healing is your healing. It is what it is and it takes as long as it takes. In the end you have to do it yourself, in your way, in your time.

This board, the articles, the book recommendations, they are but resources for your own healing. Some people are Mcgyver types and can leave a pwBPD with a paper clip, gum and a shoestring because they have the skills, experience and imagination. (once they wake up and figure out where they are)

Others need the manual, a teacher, a coach and a support system.

Neither is wrong. It just is.

If you are here you are on the field, ready to engage!  Good for you!  Get what you need out of this resource. No matter what You decide, You'll be better because you are in it for you and your happiness.

[livednlearned]

Here is what it means for me. Your healing is your healing. It is what it is and it takes as long as it takes. In the end you have to do it yourself, in your way, in your time.

Thanks, Complex. That's sort of what I was getting at. I find the definitions, labels, DSM, cluster B, Axis this and that to be a rabbit hole for me. I wish it was helpful, but it brings out my perfectionism, I think.    The checklist approach is a little too categorical and too clinical. That's why this site is so great, because it's people talking about experiences and feelings, which makes more sense and feels more real to me. Not that I don't appreciate the labels -- it helped me add 2+2 with my ex and having a label led me here. It's just that the labels and categories for codependence haven't made the healing that much more clear.

I do find myself wondering just how codependent I am, and what that means, and whether or not there's some way to know if I'm really, really codependent, just kinda codependent, or maybe reactively codependent because I married a pwBPD at an extremely vulnerable and somewhat confusing time in my life. Then had a baby. But I'm not sure why that matters except that it would probably help me chill a bit if I could say that I became codependent while in the r/s. I'm depressed right now and in an awful custody battle, which makes it hard to just get up and walk away. Being trapped in the legal stuff does force me to apply what I've learned, and not just treat healing as a curiosity because I know this is going to be a long, difficult, exhausting road. But I admit -- I want to think that if it weren't for the custody stuff, I could be well on my way through the healing jungle.

[sheepdog]

sheepdog, I think you asked interesting questions, but what did you and others learn from the answers?

Or said another way, if someone is or is not codependent, and heals more or less quickly, or recycles many times or not, what does that mean for nons? What does it mean to us if someone was able to move through his or her healing faster than I did?

The questions and responses made me think, but I'm not sure that they helped, if that makes sense. I'm just trying to get at the meaning I think is in here, not trying to diminish what is a really good set of questions -- and I'm glad you asked them.

Hi livednlearned, no worries... .I know you're not trying to diminish the question.  We're all here to learn.  

The responses actually went way deeper than what I was thinking but I got much out of them, too.

I really wanted something like:

1.)  yes, I am codependent

2.)  it took me three years to finally end it

I wasn't making a judgement on who heals faster or who is still struggling or anything like that.  But as i said earlier in the thread, I have seen a few people on this board who come here torn up and seem to go through the stages waaaay faster than some.  More often than not, those same people really know themselves and what they stand for and what they will stand for.  

I was kind of holding a mirror up to *myself*.  Sometimes it seems I go two steps forward and two steps back while, after a few weeks, the people I mentioned only go forward.  

As far as your questions:  Or said another way, if someone is or is not codependent, and heals more or less quickly, or recycles many times or not, what does that mean for nons? What does it mean to us if someone was able to move through his or her healing faster than I did?

I think what it means for nons is an individual answer.  I don't think it really means anything if it took you a long time to get over it except that, well, it did.  But for ME, when I see someone like those mentioned (who I know have got to be in a world of hurt yet don't move backwards, I really listen especially hard to their thoughts and it is like a wake-up call to me:  "get your head out of your rear, sheepdog, and open your eyes!"

For you, it may be something totally different.  And that is perfectly okay.

I do find myself wondering just how codependent I am, and what that means, and whether or not there's some way to know if I'm really, really codependent, just kinda codependent, or maybe reactively codependent because I married a pwBPD at an extremely vulnerable and somewhat confusing time in my life. Then had a baby. But I'm not sure why that matters except that it would probably help me chill a bit if I could say that I became codependent while in the r/s. I'm depressed right now and in an awful custody battle, which makes it hard to just get up and walk away. Being trapped in the legal stuff does force me to apply what I've learned, and not just treat healing as a curiosity because I know this is going to be a long, difficult, exhausting road. But I admit -- I want to think that if it weren't for the custody stuff, I could be well on my way through the healing jungle.

My SO (not my pwBPD) bought me the book, "Codependent No More" and I am working through it.  There is page after page of lists that tell traits of people who are codependent.  You 'rate' yourself from 0 to 2 (2 being yes) on those traits.  I am a 2 on so many of them, it's not even funny.  

I think I had many of those traits before him but I think my relationship with him exacerbated the codependency.  A lot.  A lot a lot.

I have had other relationships where people hurt me and I took it.  And others where, like the ones that only move forward, i tell myself "not healthy, for me... .move on!"

You have soo much going on right now, livednlearned.  Custody battles are awful.  And a custody battle with a pwBPD -    .  I can not imagine.

I don't know that knowing I am codependent has made the healing *easier*... .in a lot of ways, I am digging deep and that is hard.  But I am glad I found out I am as I am conscious of it and working on it.

There is quote I heard:  "The race is long and in the end, it's only with yourself."  

if it takes you longer than others, so be it.   xoxo

[sheepdog]

Rose Tiger and Sheep Dog, do the 5k Philadelphia Beer Run. You get both!

Rose Tiger!  You hear that?

You in, ellil?   

I don't really like the taste of beer, though.   ?

[Rose Tiger]

   Me neither, never touch the stuff (yuck).  I thought they could sneak me a nice glass of merlot while we are doing the sing along.