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Blame should be placed directly in the trashcans of our minds.

Relationships are cauldrons of emotional dynamics that stir, with ever growing amounts of ingredients in them. Placing blame in these cauldrons cannot be productful in any way, simply because of the amount of needs, desires, wants, and emotions that happen to make up these soups of life that we call relationships.

Allow me to expand a little.

Lets make up a fictional couple. Jack and Diane, you know, two american kids growing up, in the heartland.  :)

Without getting into too much detail about their childhoods, their upbringings, their religious beliefs, and their moral ethics, lets just look into a small cross section of their relationship.

They have been together for 16 months, and are living together, unmarried. Diane wants to get married, but Jack has a few reservations. We won't speculate why Jack has his reservations, but we can see that Diane is a little insecure about the fact that after 16 months, Jack just won't commit to her yet.

In her insecurity, Diane decides to flirt harmlessly with a friend, while in Jack's presence. She figures that she needs to let Jack see that she has other options. She hopes to draw Jack closer to her by way of a little emotion called jealousy.

Jack sees this, and it validates his reasons to hesitate, although, he has never seen Diane do this before. Of course, Jack gets extremely irritated. An arguement breaks out between the two of them. Jack calls her something that he never should have, and Diane's feelings get hurt. She storms home, in tears. Jack, in his anger, doesn't go home that night, leaving Diane to think he has returned the favor of flirting, and has met someone else. Jack cools off at a friends house that night.

At this point, could you, or would you place blame on someone? Im curious as to see what you all think at this point.

This is a very good topic. After posting on your thread about red-flag ...I got stuck right back into the circular thinking of blame. Was it me...was it her...what was it and who did it? I took a good trip right back into the FOG.

The truth is...its just tragic. Kinda like Romeo and Juliet huh? Was it Romeo's fault for killing himself first or was it Juliet's fault for faking her death?

Even in the best relationships...stuff like this happens. I believe it boils down to 1. lack of true empathy and 2. lack of communication.

I know I was lacking in both...as was the ex.

Easy. Diane is at fault. She was trying to manipulate Jack instead of being direct with him about her feelings.

It's so simple when your not the one involved!

Exactly. Sorry. The pwBPD is at fault. I'm not going to bullsht about it. The relationship with my ex ended, because she was an immature child who destroyed it. Period.

Am I perfect? No. Did I make mistakes? Definitely. But it was never my fault.

i think this more or less explains the complete and utter dysfunction and lack of honesty in our society. BPD may be the result and extreme of all that dysfunction, but we're such a selfish society as a whole.  we take and take and always want more. at the same time we're afraid of everything. jack was too afraid to face his fears of settling down, or the truth that he just doesn't want to.  diane was too afraid to make her thoughts known, etc, etc, etc.

luckily, I'm starting to see that not everyone is like this.  They're far and few between, but there are good people out there who can handle these issues.

It is lack of communication. People can't read other's minds. You have to ask yourself what it is you are expecting from your partner, whether it is reasonable, achievable, why you are feeling that way, how you can communicate your feelings to them, but understand they have, and are entitled to their own feelings too.

Using your couple as an example

Diane is feeling insecure, and Jack is hesitant. I imagine that maybe neither of them really expressed these feelings to one another in a good healthy way. If you talked this through, Diane may see that his hesitancy is due to x,y and z (RS is still early days etc) and maybe Jack could validate some of her feelings, and they could discuss the possible future. Minds at rest.

Diane started to behave in a certain way (actions, not words) that were confusing for Jack (he can't read her mind). Instead of Jack talking to her about her actions, and the reasons, he is confused and angry. Hence a fight, which leads to mistrust.

If you feel you are in a relationship where you can't speak up for yourself, can't express your feelings then perhaps it isnt the right one for you. PwBPD find this extremely difficult. You try to work this way but they cannot process it. Which leads to conflict.

That doesn't mean there is blame... not everything can work. People can get along but not always gel in the best of ways. I have friends who irritate me and I am sure I irritate them. It is no one's fault, we just have to learn how to communicate with each other effectively to maintain our relationship.

Hope this is not off tangent.. I do get where you are coming from PD

I WOULD have been the Diane in the picture at one point... worrying, trying to change things (not by flirting), expecting people to read my mind from my actions, not considering their feelings, invalidating them and maybe taking everything too personally. But now I feel I have learnt much better communication techniques (through here, and through T)

OK Rocker, Lets say that Diane was hesitant to move in with Jack, and Jack had flirted, just as she had done. After the flirting incident, she was scared to lose Jack, so she moved in with him. She was just using what she had been taught, and trying it out for herself, because it had the desired effect on her, that she wants on him. Now, who is to blame?

ok...well now it's Jack's fault. What are you trying to get at? In my mind manipulating behaviour is never a good thing in a R/S. Honesty and open communication work much better.

I'm with Sarah... it's all about communication and being honest with yourself and your partner.

I don't like the word 'blame'.  I don't blame myself nor do I blame my uBPDxbf.  Therefore I have never felt the need to forgive him for anything.  The actions of a mentally disordered person isn't 'on purpose' and he's said many times he doesn't like his life 'this way'.  I also take responsibility for my part.  I think we were both doing the best we could at the time.

Ok, on that note, in the first example wasnt Jack being just as manipulative from Diane's POV?

Couldn't Diane have interpreted Jack's hesitation as "I would marry you if only..."

You pointed to "Open Communication"...where in the first example did Jack clearly communicate anything?

FYI...I was Jack and my ex wife was Diane before we got married...I caved to please my ex wife.

No, man, I'm going to blame her  lol

Sorry. I got so caught up in guilt the last few weeks, I've had enough.

Are you familiar with the stages of grieving? Sounds like you might be going through the anger phase. Been there done that. I hated and was disgusted by the thought of my exwife. I would spend 3 hrs at the gym at night when I didnt have my girls just thinking about pummeling all the guys she had cheated on me with. It was a rush for sure. Be careful during this stage to not become absorbed by the anger. Anger serves its purpose but you hafta consiously understand when its purpose is over. Anger protects us...drives us sometime to be great. Just make sure its not driving you to be worse.

We will get to the "What am I getting at" in a moment. Lets just follow it out for a few more steps, just to prove the point.

Jack, who we really don't know alot about, had a very trying childhood. You see, his mother was a high functioning BPD. Jack's mother was very loving, and cared for her son to the point that Jack thought the world of his mother. He actually adored her because he always felt loved. She constantly gave him everything he wanted, and she made sure to never see him cry. She wasn't a good instructor of communication skills, or emotions, but, she knew how to get what she wanted from most people close in her circle. One of the very powerful emotions she consistently used with her boyfriends was jealousy. Jack had seen his mother do this little trick 100 times, and it usually worked. So he tried it with Diane, when she said she didn't want to move in with him. It worked wonders.

Now that he is facing the firing squad, so to speak, with the treatment aimed back in his direction, he did what he knew to do, up the ante by allowing Diane to think he did something that would make her jealous, and enrage her. He was heightening the emotional level, or "one upping" her. How many of us have been caught up in a "one upping" campaign?

What I am getting at Rocker, is there isn't one thing that leads to the dynamics of these relationships. Just in this small cross section of storyline, one could assign the blame to three different people. First Diane, then Jack, and now, his mother. The list goes on and on.

Assigning blame in these relationships is almost like tuning into a demolition derby, and trying to figure out what happened at the beginning.

We all have issues. Everyone of us. I do, you do, Skip does, everyone. We all deal with our issues differently. Most of us are completely unaware of our issues. Lord knows I had a bucketful and didn't think I had any.

These relationships are nothing more than a dynamic of issues playing off of one another. That is why someone usually gets devastated. Someone will usually wear themselves out to the point of rock bottom, and be left smoldering in the desert, with no water in sight. That is when we start looking within, to understand our own issues, and how we got to be the way we are, and what conspired to bring us to the points that we are at.


No one self examines when they are doing well, it takes something painful to start looking for the underlying reasons for these emotional dynamics.


Education. Knowledge. Communication. Just like you said, it takes all of those to have a good relationship, but you left out the most important part...It takes all of those to have a good relationship with ourselves. We have to have a good relationship with ourselves to have the knowledge, understanding, and the communicable ability to conduct ourselves well in a relationship involving another human being on a very intimate level.

I'm saying the right way for Diane to handle this is to say "Jack I don't understand why you are hesitating in making a commitment to me. could you please explain"

No, mate, I'm not angry. If anything I'm sad. I was angry. Have been for weeks. But there's nothing to be mad about really..

 lol

Diane didn't have any communication skills. She was taking a play out of Jack's playbook. She was emotionally immature.  :)

You know, this can continue on forever, and we will eventually be talking about Jack and Diane's Great Great Grandparents.

Well this explains why so many relatiomships fail.

Even the good ones...right? Look at the divorce rate...especially with kids. Over half of marriages fail without kids and nearly 3/4 fail with kids. Relationships...any relationship wether friend, family, lover or spouse...are hard. And with something that difficult...and SO MANY VARIABLES...isnt it a little hard to place blame on ONE person?

OK, Laugh Break:

A duck wants a drink. He crosses the street, walks down the sidewalk, around the corner, through the door, across the floor and hops up on a barstool. The bartender sees him. The Duck looks at the Bartender and says "You Got any Grapes?"

The Bartender says "No". The duck says "Thank you" and jumps down off of the barstool, walks across the floor, through the door, around the corner, down the sidewalk and crosses the street.

The next day, our little duck crosses the street, walks down the sidewalk, around the corner, through the door, across the floor and hops up on a barstool. The bartender sees him. The Duck looks at the Bartender and says "You Got any Grapes?"

The Bartender says "I told you no". The duck says "Thank you" and jumps down off of the barstool, walks across the floor, through the door, around the corner, down the sidewalk and crosses the street.

The very next day, our little duck crosses the street, walks down the sidewalk, around the corner, through the door, across the floor and hops up on a barstool. The bartender sees him. The Duck looks at the Bartender and says "You Got any Grapes?"

The Bartender says "Ive told you no before, and if you come in here and ask me again, Im gonna nail your damn beak to the bar". The duck says "Thank you" and jumps down off of the barstool, walks accross the floor, through the door, around the corner, down the sidewalk and crosses the street.

The very next day, our little duck nervously crosses the street, walks down the sidewalk, around the corner, through the door, across the floor and hops up on a barstool. The bartender sees him. They lock eyes. The Duck looks at the Bartender, swallows and says "You Got any Nails?"

The dumbfounded Bartender says "No". The duck says "Good! Got any grapes?"

Of course both people play a part in the r/s. But please...honesty would dictate in specific circumstances there is a right and a wrong.

Communication is the key totally in any r/s.

However for this scenario im with rocker, just because diane wasnt getting her own way she tried the oldest trick in the book..to make someone jealous , crappy trick and a nasty trick. Think diane after only 16 mths needs to grow up

Very rarely in life, is there a right or a wrong, but, in every circumstance, in every situation or context, there is a right or wrong for me.

It is interesting that men place the blame upon the woman in the story straight away

I wonder if it would have been a different result if the story was the other way round

there are different types of communication. deciding what to have for dinner is on a different level from deciding to get married, there is much more at stake in a marriage commitment. obviously. before two people can talk about the big stuff, there has to be a feeling of safety for both regarding how their own particular viewpoint will be received. often, we dont talk about something, or worse, lie about our stand on it, because we are afraid of what the other persons reaction will be. so we avoid the subject, and both are now afraid of what the other will say and the whole thing escalates. jack may have had legitimate reasons for his hesitation, but he said nothing. diane was frightened and did what she could without actually opening a dialog, which she should have done. both and neither are at fault, depending on how you want to look at it. like your soup, PDQ, take out one piece of vegetable and its potato soup, another and its mushroom, yet another and its some weird meat-like substance, each spoonful has its own flavour though no single spoon represents the whole. jack and diane need to own their own faults and realize that no relationship is guaranteed; sometimes, they just dont work and it really isnt anyones fault; one just likes more pepper than the other. give the other person the opportunity to know what you are thinking and show them that they are safe telling you the same, and then work toward each other if you can. if you cant, then understand that maybe it just wasnt meant to be, that you are both still valuable individuals, and that nobody needs to leave diminished. PDQ, there is a country song that im sure you will be familiar with that illustrates this very well and was one of the first country tunes that turned me onto the genre, "Better Man" by Clint Black. Doesnt mean it will never hurt, but it doesnt have to sting, and maybe it would save the odd one that dies for lack of trust and communication, or maturity. i ramble...

SK

btw, great discussion

thanks PDQ

|iiii

Thank you Slipknot, well said. If I may expand on it.

There needs to be a lot of room for communication in a relationship. What there isn't a lot of room for is fear, emotional insecurity, and emotional immaturity. Everyone on this board had an emotional insecurity, or some type of emotional immaturity. It is what kept us in these dyfunctional relationships. Like it or not, there is truth to it.

oh come on sarah, just replace the names the other way round. My take would have been the same if it was the other way.

We both know that in a r/s games like that lead to escalations no matter which party flirts.

More than one person related this situation to themselves instantly, and it came across their feelings of their ex cloud their perspective of other situations, easier to react with 'that is wrong' than looking a lot deeper into the reasons these things happen.

Sarah, this sounds like its hitting close to home with you as well. I do hafta ask, why is it "Man vs Woman" for you. What if Jack was short for Jacklene?

Lets up it then if pdq is ok with this.

Your partner flirts.. First reaction? First feeling? Where do you put the blame?

No one accepts blame thats what.. Pride comes before a fall all the time

OK guys, lets not make this personal, or make it a man versus woman thing. We are all adults here.

It wouldnt surprise me if all of the people who were coupled with men reacted to say that it was Jack's fault, and all of the people who were coupled with women to say it was Diane's. Truth is, it isn't anyones fault.

I have been bitten 13 times by dogs. I have to admit, when I see a strange dog, my butt puckers up so tight that I could make rice out of a piece of spaghetti. It doesn't mean the dogs are bad, but it just means I have had bad experiences with them. Its a trauma thing.

Yes jack should of opened up to her, that is his blame.  But manipulation and triangulation (read definition) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0) with another dude, its totally wrong on her part.

Not at all. I don't blame anyone and see it is a communication and understanding issue.

I wasn't meaning to make it personal, I meant it in the sense that although we have to learn from what we have been through and be cautious, we shouldn't let it become an instant reaction to make assumptions, ie. the opposite sex are not to be trusted etc.

OK - PDQ is trying to make  a much larger point and all of you are all getting caught in semantics.

This is not a male/female flirting BPD thing.

This is the fact that WE ARE ALL BROKEN TOYS.

Not one of us here is perfect at communication and as such, we all have hidden wounds, core issues or we would not be part of this support group.

By looking at different perspectives, we can stop assigning blame and start our healing towards acceptance.

Ok, bring it on - Alex, Joop, Sarah, Rocker, Brer?

Definitely true for me, but even further when partners are too afraid of loss to let each other know when the other is encroaching on an emotional boundary then one or both of them just might bust through it with a battering ram in a single action.

I had some opportunities to avoid real conflict in my relationship as well did my partner; sometimes it wasn't until someone's front door was knocked down and the mud was all over the carpets that we showed each other where the doorbell was. Only so many times one can replace the front door.

so whats the answer, just realize all r/s are doomed due to human nature? 

Look i get the broken toy thing. But WTH? there's no right and wrong? I've read a quote from here before "It's an explanation not and excuse"

wow - thats dark

no, just some toys with polish we can clean up and keep playing with. some we just have to let go of because they are too broken, thats all.

I feel your anger & hurt, absolutely.

But how does it help you to blame her?

Oh good God no. Thats not what anyone is saying. Human nature is a beautiful thing, and relationships can thrive with human nature at the helm.

Relationships can be very trying. Add in several insecurities, and add fear into the mix, then the water starts getting hot. Keep adding in the levels of emotional immaturity that we see in the relationships that we are dealing with, well then, the water can boil out of the pot in a skinny minute.

What we need to learn here are what our weaknesses are, and what our insecurities are, and learn to either overcome them, or self soothe them. That way, we can be poised to be in a good, healthy relationship and enjoy the fruits of our labor.

the point is that the road to true healing and a chance for something better than we have had is through understanding our role in the problems. i will be the first whose back gets up at the mention that my ex wasnt at fault, but i have to realize that i DID contribute in many ways. im not saying that my goals werent honorable or that she didnt throw a wrench into the works deliberately, but i did do things and say things and think things (and still do, though not so much) that were wrong for me. i degraded myself and threw gas on the flames and stubbornly insisted when all the indicators were that i should just bow out with as much dignity as i can and carry on with my life. i reacted badly many times and i stayed in an unhealthy relationship because i was afraid and yes, immature in the ways of love. and all of that was after i jumped into a relationship unprepared and mistook lust and infatuation for love and commitment. i dont like admitting my faults, but if i dont, i set myself up for more of the same, and i really dont think i can do more of the same. i want to go back to the way i used to be, when i approached each day with the idea that i would be a better man than i was yesterday. i cant do that without finding myself and i cant find myself if i dont look hard and objectively for the truth. i may not be proud of what i see down there sometimes, but i damn well will be proud of how it changes from here on in.

SK

It doesn't help at all. The damage has been done. When we punish someone for commiting murder, does it bring back the victim? Of course not.

Nice SlipKnot, nice.

Rocker, are you saying that murder is never acceptable, under any circumstances?

I feel like I am quite here already.

I meant to bring up the subject of that it felt like jumping to instant conclusions - like PDQ's dog analogy. I feel it is important... well to me anyway. If I was walking around thinking men are untrustworthy and relating it to my ex, well then I am not being upfront about my role, what I have learnt and that would not help me with communication in the future.

The whole point of this was that there are 2 roles in this dance of dysfunction, instead of blame.

I think our experiences can certainly sour our perspectives. That is to be expected when you have been bitten and moving past that is quite liberating. I used to see traits of my ex all over the place and in other people , now with acceptance that is lessening

Slipknot puts very nicely how I feel too

Folks i understand what we are trying to do here, honestly i do but this is the real world, we dont have a check list of , self esteem bondary tick, self worth boundary tick, etc etc.. Of course we made mistakes in the r/s and we will make them again , wether it be communication or blame or whatever.

All i need to remember is what i allowed to happen last time to myself, what is the one thing we all ignored, all of us? What is the it in you that is your alarm bell which we silenced?

GUT INSTINCT! Isnt that what we go with next time and this time listen to?

As for blame.. Well i will hold my hands up and say yep i messed up but at the end of the day we didnt hold a gun to our partners heads and force them to do or say what they did... Christ almighty people , our partners illness or not are adults.. They chose to do what they do just as we chose to stay

My point is...NO THERE ISNT A RIGHT AND WRONG. Right and wrong are subjective words in the English language...purely based on perspective. Especially RIGHT...usually used as a directional word vs left...ENTIRELY PERSPECTIVE BASED.

Lets take "Murder is unacceptable in ALL instances" example as I think that "flirting" may have hit too close to home for some.

Murder is against the law right? Of what country? Of what state? Are there circumstances where murder is more acceptable...yep SELF-DEFENSE in the US anyway. Who made those laws...why...who decided that it was wrong to kill? Arent there canabalistic cultures...theyre murdering arent they?

Now, lets apply the same LOGIC to Diane's flirting...who decided it was wrong for Diane to flirt...why...who made up that "law". Is there no circumstances where flirting is acceptable? Oh...wait...arent there polygamistic cultures out there...yeah I think there are. In fact, just to keep it "sexism" free...there are even women lead polygamies.

So, following the logic here...since right and wrong are subjective words...so is blame. Blame is purely based on perspective.

This is as philisophical as I am getting today...it is the same as the difference between FACT and TRUTH. We were given FACTS in the beginning...and our own TRUTHS lead us to right and wrong. Read the Declaration of Independence..."...we hold these TRUTHS to be self evident..."

Only we can decide what is true for ourselves and we cannot create a truth for someone else. And if we walk around assigning blame what good does that accomplish? Isnt that victimhood mentality?

You got it.

This is ridiculous. Most of us that are on here were manipulated and lied to repeatedly. That's not wrong? Get your head out of the clouds.

Why? Cause It's not wrong in their sick minds?

First of all, breathe Rocker. No one is here to prove themselves better than anyone, or attacking anyone. This is just a discussion on the dynamics of a relationship, specifically a relationship with a disordered person.

I'm no different than any of you. I was lied to, manipulated, cheated on more times than the local walmart has condoms to count.

Lets open up this discussion with injecting "Free Will". We all have the free will to do whatever we feel like that we want to, and society has laws to govern what we can, and can not do. We are still able to do what we want, but we have to understand that there are consequences for certain actions. After all, we are still innocent until proven guilty.

It is within a disordered persons free will to lie and manipulate, if they choose to do so. We are helpless to stop them in their efforts. All we can do is erect boundaries, and if those are crossed, execute a consequence that will send a message that the actions will not be tolerated by us, as individuals. This is where we get into trouble, because we are focusing on our own wants and needs, that we are having met, that we forget about the consequences for actions part. We feel internally that we can correct their behavior by loving them, or doing for them. In short, what we end up doing, is enabling the very behavior that we are trying to eliminate.

There is no prison for common lying, and there are no laws against emotional manipulation. It is up to the individual to protect themselves, and choose their friends, and relationship partners. Again, most of us are not taught the ways that these dynamics work, and how to resolve them, so we are left to figure them out on our own accord, which, as you can see, can be very emotionally devastating.

Most of us had no idea what a boundary is, or positive reinforcement, or intermittent reinforcement. We simply weren't educated in these things. This lack of education, or emotional immaturity, hinders our abilities to have a healthy relationship, and leaves us prone to dysfunctional ones.

Rest assured, these people who are cunning liars and manipulators, run into people everyday who will decide very quickly to choose to not have any type of relationship with them, simply because they see the problems right off the bat, where we let those red flags fly right on past us, because we had different ideas of how these things worked.

These lessons are life lessons and can be used in every type of relationship, not just intimate ones.

When we get into the debate of right, or wrong, it is purely subjective, and it is important that we all understand that. If you look at it from the disordered persons perspective, is it right for them to lie, cheat, and manipulate? Well, it gets them what they need and want, by the only means that they know, so, the answer would have to be yes, it is right for them, in their limited mental and emotional capacity. If you look at it from our perspective, then, no it isn't right, because they are fooling us into giving them what they want, and leaving us hurt, out in the cold. Thus there is no right or wrong, there is just right and wrong for me.

Is there a BPD for dummies out there because i am totally lost here with this right and wrong.

PDQ are you saying that cheating or lieing to the pwBPD is acceptable in there thinking and its right to do it so they feel blameless in there self?

Here is an example of what my ex did.. I get a phone call from a cell phone, it flashes up with a number, i answer , the call is ended after a few seconds with the other person not saying anything.

Long story short.. Turns out my ex had got herself a pay and go sim card to contact this guy who i confronted her about 5 mths earlier and who she promised at that time she would never contact again.

Now the point i want to make is this.. My ex got up off her bum, went and got this sim card , put credit on it and called this guy again, so when she needed to speak to me she would change the sim card in her phone back to the number i knew, but that day she forgot which sim she had in

her actions show it was well thought out, it was cynical and cold and she knew what she was doing, so are you telling me that to her it was right thing to do when she had a partner and i could not blame her for doing that..

If i have it right then my god there is more twisted thinking on here than in a pwBPD head.

Joop, I can't tell you what was going through her mind at the time, but I can give you reasons why people do things like that.

From everything we read, fear is a driving emotion in a disordered persons persona. Fear of abandonment is a key part of that. They fear being alone, because it leaves them with their thoughts, and that, to them, is scary. They would much rather have someone to focus on. Drama is a big factor as well, because it keeps their minds focused on something else.

Now, take your ex-girlfriend, and you can add mine to this list too, they have a fear of abandonment. When you have this fear, you do what will soothe that fear. You find what we refer to as "the one in the wings". If things fall apart with you, there is someone there to take your place. You will find this very characteristic of the disordered people we are dealing with. Hence all of the cheating that goes on. This also lends into the black and white thinking patterns. Once the switch has been made, then the old person becomes the "black" and the new becomes the "white".

Think of it this way Joop. Lets say you have gone through a horrible catastrophe like what has just happened in Japan. Lets say your home has been destroyed, and you have no job, no car, nothing. After a week, you have exhausted all of the food you have. You are hungry, but not at the critical point of life or death. Your fear is that you will become that way.

You see a truck that has food in it, yet you have no money. What do you do? Morally, it is wrong to steal, but the fear of starving permits yourself to rationalize that this is what you have to do. You do it out of fear. They act on the same impulses, but on a daily basis, and under much less severe circumstances. Yet, the fear to them, is as real as your fear would be in that scenario.

Your ex was doing what she had to do to keep her fears in check. Its hard to wrap your mind around, but its true. They will lie to you to cover up their actions, because they are afraid that you will leave, prompting a need for someone else, who may, or may not be on a string. They manipulate because they don't believe they can merit what they want on their own accords. It is a deep seeded fear, one that you and I will hopefully ever have to face.

i think i can see something here that i would like to point out, just in case it makes a difference to some of you. we have all been hurt, and in some cases, grieviously. we dont want to excuse the people who hurt us, give them an out or relieve what we believe to be their due. i cant argue those feelings, hell i have them myself. what is hard, and i can speak for myself quite definitely on this point, is looking at "what was done to me" objectively and without bias in order to pull some damn meaning from it. and then someone asks us to look at OUR role in hurting ourselves? what the? she hurt me, she manipulated me, she used me (substitute 'he' for 'she', ladies) and I did something wrong? honest reaction, ive had the same myself. to be fair though, this isnt what this topic was about, in my mind anyway. nobody should take responsibility for what is not theirs. and nobody is excusing what was done to us and nobody wants to diminish or invalidate the hurt we feel. it is about, finally and for the good of ourselves, taking the focus OFF our exes and the behaviour and the pain and damage and putting it squarely on ourselves, where it has to be now. we cant erase what happened, we can only deal with it and the blame game, regardless of our stand on it, keeps us enmeshed and unable to move forward. take a step back and analyze our role in what happened with a view toward learning something positive to take with us as we walk through the rest of our lives. dont beat yourself up, dont own anyone elses issues, but be honest with yourself, be objective and look for the truth. this is what i see in this thread. we have survived an ordeal. now lets move from 'surviving' to 'living'.

SK

Amen brothers

SK, I think youre right on  |iiii

Im gonna take this a step further...owning our own emotions.

Whats are FACTUAL statements from PDQ's example?

Diane is insecure with Jack's hesitation to wed and Jack is insecure with Diane's flirtation.

-OR-

Jack made Diane insecure by his hesitation to wed and Diane made Jack insecure by her flirtation.

What are the differences between the 2 statements?

They're both to blame.  They shouldn't be shacking up and playing house.  There's no real commitment on either side.

PDQuick,

excellent post. i tend to agree with sarah1234, with the lack of communication.

since i'm argumentative by nature, im not sure your story is bullet proof, but i certainly get it. i haven't fully dove in to all the replies, and i probably should have because they all touch on most of what i want to say.

people have to be responsible for their actions. it just need be remembered we (if not especially the BPD) don't always KNOW better. we dont even always realize what we're communicating, or that we're communicating. i understand why diane did what she did. i understand why jack reacted as he did.

as i read through the replies, this is getting downright philosophical. i like brer rabbit's posing of the "difference". i was beginning to lean there. "blame" is inherently often traceable. someone usually "started it". diane took the first action. you can argue jack's inaction caused that action if you want to. i really like slipknots take as well. and thats why i come back to your original statement. blame should be completely removed from the equation. that, or applied equally. it just doesn't help to endlessly blame our BPD ex. at the very least, we have to examine, if they were so wrong, why we put up with someone who was all wrong.

I think I might understand what you are getting at... here is my take on it:

Jack and Diane both have issues to deal with themselves that are preventing them from being able to have a healthy relationship.  Diane is not willing to let the relationship progress at its natural pace.  Instead she feels the need to introduce the idea of marraige to "test" whether the committment level is where she thinks it should be.  She is trying to control Jack which may be why he is hesitating.  No one wants to be controlled by another.  He is reading her impatience as a warning sign, as he should.  At the same time, Jack is feeling "hesitant" about making a committment, yet he isn't taking notice of the fact that the committment already exists.  They are together and have been for a duration of time.  He wanted her to live with him.  The hard part is done.  Now, if they can both just relax and enjoy each other, they would realize that the issue of marraige really doesn't need to be an issue at all.  What makes a relationship work is mutal respect, which Diane did not show when she flirted with his friend.  They are not ready for marraige.  The party and the presents can't fix a problem that is already there. You have to first know yourself and love yourself so that you don't expect someone else to make up for what you think is missing in your life. 

How did I do?

reading about the man vs woman argument has me thinking. we can't forget the differences in men and women and what motivates them. not to mention insecurity.

someone, i think PDQuick posed the hypothetical of your partner flirts, what do you do? well, depends on our definition of "flirting". i like everyone have my insecurities. i can be extremely secure. but i have a certain security, especially if communication is strong, and those dynamics of a relationship that keep us secure are strong.

i consider myself loyal and monogamous and i want the same. doesn't mean that when in a relationship i dont get a kick from running into another girl, charming her, or being charmed by her, getting a big smile, being outright hit on, whatever. thats probably not really the definition of "flirting" we're operating on, i understand. but that encounter is going to give me confidence, as it would anyone. and chances are, im actually just gonna bring it home, feeling confident, and flirt like hell with my partner.

i've had my partner describe being hit on. my reaction was more or less "good for you honey. you're sexy. i told you so." i would hope hers would be the same, and that she'd be secure enough if i told her about it too.

i mention this because your hypothetical describes two clearly insecure people. security in our selves, our relationship, and in our partners behavior toward us, and in our partner themselves, all matter, as well as communication.

Ok let me take a stab again at this cause i may of had a moment of clarity.  Jack imposed a boundary, that diane  wouldn't flirt, so she crossed this boundary he needed time to cool off ect.  So if jack didn't do anything and just kept it inside like im sure I did through out the r/s he would of been at fault.  So the right and wrong is all perspective of the character and his or her boundaries.

Now i could be absolutely wrong but ya, so in my situation, i should of imposed a boundary when i started to suspect bs, i should of walked ect instead of fueled the fire due to my immaturity and issues. 

thats the everlasting rub, and it becomes clearer and clearer the more you do so. every time you do place blame, even understanding your role in THEIR actions is important.

this isn't really a blame story, but for example. i can pinpoint when my ex pulled away, began hiding me, began attaching herself to the guy she ended up going on a date with 6 days after what wasn't even a clear breakup, and started a relationship with after 10 days. this is after 3 years. imagine my anger, not to mention my suspicions. i did nothing to deserve that. she looks like a liar, a cheater, and a conniver. well, saying that doesn't make me feel any better. but understanding why she did it gives me some closure, at the very least. we'd had a HUGE fight during which she said several things i just didnt know if i could get past this time. i told her so. i told her we probably weren't done, but i couldn't really talk to her right now. for the next few days, i mostly ignored her texts. like all BPDs, this is a perpetually lonely person with a deep fear of abandonment. i didn't realize the message i was sending, the behavior i was potentially triggering. and then over the next two months, i saw very little of her, and unbeknown to me, instead of (i read this described on one of the resource articles) "absence making the heart grow fonder", i was "out of sight and out of mind", and my "absence made the heart grow colder." i did some of this throughout the relationship because i had to get away from the terrible fights. i was exhausted and driven away by her. she never seemed to get that, and i never understood WHY she didnt get that. but things were playing out while i was being driven away. infact there was an entirely separate period of 9 weeks where we didn't see each other. i was fine with that. that's not normal, and it's not healthy. why was i fine with it, and why would i remain in a relationship where i could spend 9 weeks away from my partner and be fine with it?

brer rabbit, you were dead on with the romeo and juliet analogy, and that's what still kills me.

there is right and wrong. these people don't share the same sense. and we dont always see it ourselves.

sorry, this thread and slipknots post still have me going.

it's not even just about accepting blame for ourselves or our role in our relationship. just turning the tables around on ourselves, you'd be AMAZED what you find down there. listen to your thoughts. they're telling you things. i kept feeling a need to know and hear that this new relationship of my exes revolved around me in lots of ways. why? to have that pointed out to me started a ton of self examination. it's frankly a thought that makes me uncomfortable with myself. it's immature. i understand it. it's human. i want to feel important and know i mattered. i also wondered why in the world she went with a guy who looks just like me. but this NEED to know it was all about me was revealing, and healing. it's something i can now recognize, and lessen a great deal.

and, PDQuick, your response to Joop spoke to me a great deal as well.

Its tragic isnt it...it hurts.

Here is some of my tragedy and how I tried to invoke jealousy in a way that Diane did...

We had relocated to SoCal for a new life by the beach. We had $700 to our name...1 daughter 1 on the way...I took a 3 month contract job. I moved first...started my new job...got everything set up. I told her to be extra extra careful cause healthcare was in flux til I get picked up permanently...and that she had never driven that far away from home before. She was on her way back down and got into a car accident. She loved her colored contact lenses cause she hated the color of her own eyes which were the sweetest brown eyes...but she wanted green eyes. She wore those contacts day in and day out so much so the color stuck to her eye balls and the contacts got holes in them. She refused to wear her glasses...which by the way cost $300 of MY money...so on the way down with the last of our belongings it started to get dark and she started to see starbursts from oncoming traffic's headlights. She was nervous and got lost. Our 2yo daughter was in the back and was screaming for juice. She was 30min from our new home. She turned to give D2 her juice and ran into a wall at 35mph. I rushed to the er to find that d2 was perfect (I had a way of strapping that crseat in so that NOTHING could budge it)...the baby on the way was good too...but ex had sustained a concusion and put her top teeth right thru her bottom lip.

So, the next day her dad came down to help out cause I couldnt take of of work...no sick time and we needed all the money we could get. Within 3 days her completely took over what I had created...a new life...all in the name of helping us out. I told him he needed to leave. The one thing that I had asked him to do didnt get done. I had asked him to please take care of the accident admin stuff like report and ins stuff so that way ex didnt hafta relive it all just then. After I calmly asked her father to leave...she gets in my face screaming and yelling at me. I blew up...I yelled at her for getting into the accident...from my perspective it was all her fault...why couldnt she be careful...why couldnt she have worn her glasses...why couldnt she have called me to drive her in being only 30min away and we just got off the phone...she put soo much at jeopardy! I ended up asking her to leave as well. So there I was in my new life...ALONE and RIGHT.

A few weeks went by and I was not happy with the new life. I started to seek employment back in NorCal. We shared an email account that was really mine but she claimed to not know how to set up her own. So I would check to see if I had any unread messages and I did not. A week went by and I started to wonder why I had not even gotten a single reply from any of the jobs I had submitted my resume for...turns out I had. She was reading the emails and deleting them. I told her to stay out of my email account. Instead of just changing the password...I was gonna show her a lesson...she had disrespected me in front of her dad...she had caused soo much hurt, anger, depression over the years...So, I signed up for a sex dating website and had the confirmation email sent to the email I know she was going to check. She had been constantly checking on me...accusing me...now I was missing job opportunities...I was gonna show her. Besides, I caught her doing the same and disguising it as checking the guys out for a friend. She was gonna see how it felt...it was all her fault.

Well, she found out alright. Thats when the physical affairs started...she was gonna show me a thing or 2...

See where the blame game got me...

brer,

that is tragic. even more tragic, i can only imagine, when children are involved. that is something i always considered, and something perhaps comforting i'd like to suggest. one thing i knew for certain was that if i DID marry this person i would not have my children exposed to fights like ours (which, while terrible, dont even approach some of the stories on this site. certainly never any violence. but still, especially with their frequency, not something i could ever entertain having my children exposed to.). in your case her irresponsible behavior was, well, irresponsible. that's worth considering. i've also read up (a little) about BPD mothers. there are certain things i could only picture knowing what i know now that i sure as hell wouldn't want for my children either.

im glad for you that you're able to recognize your own behavior and its consequences. we want to avoid making the same mistakes in the future. some of the dynamics you describe could have played out in any relationship with two immature (i say that respectfully) adults let alone with a BPD.

LOL...hey I will be the first to admit that my emotional maturity at times was on par with hers 

You wouldnt believe the nights spent...not loving eachother like newly weds...but wrapped up in the "Well, you did this!" "Well, you did that first!"...all the way back to when we first met.

A great song to listen to is Heartbreak Warfare - John Mayer...thats the blame game.

Youre right...even in "normal" relationships these dynamics can play out...and they do. Look at my divorce stats...can't tell me that nearly 3/4 of married couples with kids are in BPD marriages. Yet theyre divorcing too. Throw in something like BPD...and add a pinch of someone that doesnt know how to stop the dance on the otherside...powder keg is whatcha got.

I think that now we have decided that the unhealthy relationship is over and is no longer right for us...we hafta figure out ":)amn...this hurts. Ok...now what?" I can only speak for me...but this is the first time in my life I have EVER said those words.

The real tragedy is that she still blames me for everything and justifies everything she has done by my actions. I have done the best I can to drop the rope in this emotional tug-o-war. Not something that I like and definitely not something thats natural...but its working for me. I almost choke on the emails that I hafta send out about the girls...end every single one with "Have a nice day." But I am the only one capable of doing it...so thats my job now...conflict manager.

If I have an issue with my behavior, and she has an issue with her behavior, Who's issue can I affect? Can I work on mine and have an outcome, or can I work on hers?

brer,

thats what i imagine would be even worse about sharing kids. you're painted black. contact is necessary. any of it could trigger their sense of abandonment or their lashing out. so many of them attempt (or succeed) at turning kids against them.

it's funny, turning it back on me is literally healing in the sense that it's the only thing that REALLY gets my mind off her. i think i can feel it making me better every time. and yeah, our goals have to be to find healthy relationships and that must go hand in hand, so it feels like progress at the same time.

There ya go...freeing and empowering isnt it?  |iiii

Thats how I get by...thats how I move forward. What happens when you blame others is that you rob yourself of control of your life.

Once I rephrased my thoughts from "She hurt me!" to "I hurt!"...or from "She has problems!" to "What are my problems?"...things started to get a little easier...and the air smelled just a little better...maybe cause my nose was one MY face instead of up hear rear end lol.

The other thing is that maybe...someday...when I find someone...I am going to know how to better handle myself a little bit better...know how to treat her just a little bit better...and just maybe I will get to experience a healthy loving relationship lol.

brer,

you'll attract someone far greater, be far more attractive, and enjoy your healthy relationship a great deal more.

You can try to work on hers. Then, when youre head is bloody enough from beating it against that wall...the concusion might make you think that just maybe its time to focus on you.

Thats where I had to get I suppose lol

This is a really good thread to read. I don't have time to write a long reply, but I have read with interest what people are realising about themselves and getting all empowered  :)

hey sarah

part of the power of this place comes from seeing the process in action; from seeing that recovery is a sequence of feelings and emotions and life-events that lead from there to here to tomorrow. when we share where we are, without reservation, we give everyone here another angle on what it is like; another example which may more closely resemble what is going on for someone else. there really is no right or wrong for us, here. just the common desire to understand and move on. synergy in action. the power of truth is incredible.

peace all

SK

I think back to my time over the years with my ex and after our first year she never wanted to know my children from my previous marriage. They were cast out and i blamed her for doing that to young children and have them thinking it was there fault, but there were times when she did make an effort and wanted to see them, but i made excuses that they couldnt, i realised i had to protect my children from her because she was not consistent with me in our r/s.. I felt guilty for making excuses , so one day i told her she could not see them because how we were..that hurt her , i saw it in her face for a flickering moment and just as i was about to suggest i bring them to see her she spat out ' well it does not matter anyway because how do you think it feels to me when they look like your ex wife'.. I asked her is that why you cut them out yrs ago and i got no reply.. So you see i went from blame, to guilt, to anger , to hurt..

Did i do my job as a protective father? Yes but i also lied by making excuses to my partner

hey joop

your last post about your kids got me to thinking about kids and how raising them ties into the thread here. we love our kids and want the best for them. so when they mess up, we are able to look at the situation as it pertains to them and what they did. we assess fault and accord correction consistent with the message we want to convey to them, but we dont really blame them, do we? i mean, we can see them being at fault in a situation, but we understand that they are young and IMMATURE, so we refrain from blaming them. we correct and educate because we want them to know the why? of things so they can better govern themselves in the future, all of this with a view toward their learning how to be decent and happy and strong. we do this without really blaming them, because we dont want to hurt them, we want to teach them. its not about punishing so much as helping them to see why they did wrong. so what am i trying to say? honestly, i dont know lol. i mean, kids are not BPD adults and the relationship is different but i just got to thinking about it and wondering about the whole blame/fault thing. perhaps the tie-in im seeing is in maturity level, ours, our ex's. if just for the sake of our own healing process, might it help to look at it in this way?

peace

SK

Hi SK

i think i can see what you are trying to say. We adapt when talking to children, we try to make there selves accountable for there actions but we then try to educate them what impact there behaviour may have on themselves and others. No child wants to accept blame, hey i never wanted to lol.. But as you say we try and educate as parent.

Now i can see that with my ex i was chastising her for her behaviour towards me and our r/s and trying to hopefully get her to accept responsibility.. She would often comment in those times that i was talking to her like her dad, and i guess i was because her behaviour and her sense of entitlement were childish..

I swear to god my words to her were you are like a selfish child in a womans body..but there in that lies me doing things wrong because talking to her like that was seen as criticism and no child likes to be criticised or repramanded..

We are lucky because throughout our day we move through 3 stages of self, child, adult and parent, we do this unknowingly, child is our joking self our immature self, adult is how you may speak to your boss or act in company and parent is our caring side our concern for others.. Now the BPD can not in a r/s get past child, so in our bad times i was trying to talk to her as 2 adults but she couldnt with being stuck in child so my words were like a parent telling her off

This would have been considered an above average night by me with my exBPDgf . lol

If the fictional couple do not have any major pd's maybe they could work through  it.

The difference with my BPD would have been;

1.  it wouldn't have been innocent flirting

2. It would make no difference to her if we were married or not she'd still do it.

3.She'd deny it or gaslight it like she really wasn't flirting.

4. Good chance she'd take the guy's number and call him.

5.Somehow everything would be my fault.

"If you look at it from the disordered persons perspective, is it right for them to lie, cheat, and manipulate? Well, it gets them what they need and want, by the only means that they know, so, the answer would have to be yes, it is right for them, in their limited mental and emotional capacity. "

PDQ...Im sorry, but you're coming off as an apologist for an awful lot of God awful behavior...

If you asked them point blank,  if you do action A, B will occur...and B is the devastation so  many of us go through, its hard to believe they would do action A..

There is a reason we get the silent treatment, there is a reason we get split, there is a reason we get smeared, there is a reason they never apologize, for they know good and well that what they are doing is not right, and the lengths they will go to avoid that shaming concession is really what makes this disorder so distinctive and confounding