Placing the blame of these relationships.

[PDQuick]

Blame should be placed directly in the trashcans of our minds.

Relationships are cauldrons of emotional dynamics that stir, with ever growing amounts of ingredients in them. Placing blame in these cauldrons cannot be productful in any way, simply because of the amount of needs, desires, wants, and emotions that happen to make up these soups of life that we call relationships.

Allow me to expand a little.

Lets make up a fictional couple. Jack and Diane, you know, two american kids growing up, in the heartland. 

Without getting into too much detail about their childhoods, their upbringings, their religious beliefs, and their moral ethics, lets just look into a small cross section of their relationship.

They have been together for 16 months, and are living together, unmarried. Diane wants to get married, but Jack has a few reservations. We won't speculate why Jack has his reservations, but we can see that Diane is a little insecure about the fact that after 16 months, Jack just won't commit to her yet.

In her insecurity, Diane decides to flirt harmlessly with a friend, while in Jack's presence. She figures that she needs to let Jack see that she has other options. She hopes to draw Jack closer to her by way of a little emotion called jealousy.

Jack sees this, and it validates his reasons to hesitate, although, he has never seen Diane do this before. Of course, Jack gets extremely irritated. An arguement breaks out between the two of them. Jack calls her something that he never should have, and Diane's feelings get hurt. She storms home, in tears. Jack, in his anger, doesn't go home that night, leaving Diane to think he has returned the favor of flirting, and has met someone else. Jack cools off at a friends house that night.

At this point, could you, or would you place blame on someone? Im curious as to see what you all think at this point.

[Brer Rabbit]

This is a very good topic. After posting on your thread about  ...I got stuck right back into the circular thinking of blame. Was it me...was it her...what was it and who did it? I took a good trip right back into the FOG.

The truth is...its just tragic. Kinda like Romeo and Juliet huh? Was it Romeo's fault for killing himself first or was it Juliet's fault for faking her death?

Even in the best relationships...stuff like this happens. I believe it boils down to 1. lack of true empathy and 2. lack of communication.

I know I was lacking in both...as was the ex.

[rocker99]

Easy. Diane is at fault. She was trying to manipulate Jack instead of being direct with him about her feelings.

It's so simple when your not the one involved!

[AlexDP]

Exactly. Sorry. The pwBPD is at fault. I'm not going to bullsht about it. The relationship with my ex ended, because she was an immature child who destroyed it. Period.

Am I perfect? No. Did I make mistakes? Definitely. But it was never my fault.

[just_think]

i think this more or less explains the complete and utter dysfunction and lack of honesty in our society. BPD may be the result and extreme of all that dysfunction, but we're such a selfish society as a whole.  we take and take and always want more. at the same time we're afraid of everything. jack was too afraid to face his fears of settling down, or the truth that he just doesn't want to.  diane was too afraid to make her thoughts known, etc, etc, etc.

luckily, I'm starting to see that not everyone is like this.  They're far and few between, but there are good people out there who can handle these issues.

[sarah1234]

It is lack of communication. People can't read other's minds. You have to ask yourself what it is you are expecting from your partner, whether it is reasonable, achievable, why you are feeling that way, how you can communicate your feelings to them, but understand they have, and are entitled to their own feelings too.

Using your couple as an example

Diane is feeling insecure, and Jack is hesitant. I imagine that maybe neither of them really expressed these feelings to one another in a good healthy way. If you talked this through, Diane may see that his hesitancy is due to x,y and z (RS is still early days etc) and maybe Jack could validate some of her feelings, and they could discuss the possible future. Minds at rest.

Diane started to behave in a certain way (actions, not words) that were confusing for Jack (he can't read her mind). Instead of Jack talking to her about her actions, and the reasons, he is confused and angry. Hence a fight, which leads to mistrust.

If you feel you are in a relationship where you can't speak up for yourself, can't express your feelings then perhaps it isnt the right one for you. PwBPD find this extremely difficult. You try to work this way but they cannot process it. Which leads to conflict.

That doesn't mean there is blame... not everything can work. People can get along but not always gel in the best of ways. I have friends who irritate me and I am sure I irritate them. It is no one's fault, we just have to learn how to communicate with each other effectively to maintain our relationship.

Hope this is not off tangent.. I do get where you are coming from PD

I WOULD have been the Diane in the picture at one point... worrying, trying to change things (not by flirting), expecting people to read my mind from my actions, not considering their feelings, invalidating them and maybe taking everything too personally. But now I feel I have learnt much better communication techniques (through here, and through T)

[PDQuick]

Easy. Diane is at fault. She was trying to manipulate Jack instead of being direct with him about her feelings.

It's so simple when your not the one involved!

OK Rocker, Lets say that Diane was hesitant to move in with Jack, and Jack had flirted, just as she had done. After the flirting incident, she was scared to lose Jack, so she moved in with him. She was just using what she had been taught, and trying it out for herself, because it had the desired effect on her, that she wants on him. Now, who is to blame?

[rocker99]

ok...well now it's Jack's fault. What are you trying to get at? In my mind manipulating behaviour is never a good thing in a R/S. Honesty and open communication work much better.

[Crystal Ball]

I'm with Sarah... it's all about communication and being honest with yourself and your partner.

I don't like the word 'blame'.  I don't blame myself nor do I blame my uBPDxbf.  Therefore I have never felt the need to forgive him for anything.  The actions of a mentally disordered person isn't 'on purpose' and he's said many times he doesn't like his life 'this way'.  I also take responsibility for my part.  I think we were both doing the best we could at the time.

[Brer Rabbit]

ok...well now it's Jack's fault. What are you trying to get at? In my mind manipulating behaviour is never a good thing in a R/S. Honesty and open communication work much better.

Ok, on that note, in the first example wasnt Jack being just as manipulative from Diane's POV?

Couldn't Diane have interpreted Jack's hesitation as "I would marry you if only..."

You pointed to "Open Communication"...where in the first example did Jack clearly communicate anything?

FYI...I was Jack and my ex wife was Diane before we got married...I caved to please my ex wife.

[AlexDP]

No, man, I'm going to blame her 

Sorry. I got so caught up in guilt the last few weeks, I've had enough.

[Brer Rabbit]

Sorry. I got so caught up in guilt the last few weeks, I've had enough.

Are you familiar with the stages of grieving? Sounds like you might be going through the anger phase. Been there done that. I hated and was disgusted by the thought of my exwife. I would spend 3 hrs at the gym at night when I didnt have my girls just thinking about pummeling all the guys she had cheated on me with. It was a rush for sure. Be careful during this stage to not become absorbed by the anger. Anger serves its purpose but you hafta consiously understand when its purpose is over. Anger protects us...drives us sometime to be great. Just make sure its not driving you to be worse.

[PDQuick]

ok...well now it's Jack's fault. What are you trying to get at? In my mind manipulating behavior is never a good thing in a R/S. Honesty and open communication work much better.

We will get to the "What am I getting at" in a moment. Lets just follow it out for a few more steps, just to prove the point.

Jack, who we really don't know alot about, had a very trying childhood. You see, his mother was a high functioning BPD. Jack's mother was very loving, and cared for her son to the point that Jack thought the world of his mother. He actually adored her because he always felt loved. She constantly gave him everything he wanted, and she made sure to never see him cry. She wasn't a good instructor of communication skills, or emotions, but, she knew how to get what she wanted from most people close in her circle. One of the very powerful emotions she consistently used with her boyfriends was jealousy. Jack had seen his mother do this little trick 100 times, and it usually worked. So he tried it with Diane, when she said she didn't want to move in with him. It worked wonders.

Now that he is facing the firing squad, so to speak, with the treatment aimed back in his direction, he did what he knew to do, up the ante by allowing Diane to think he did something that would make her jealous, and enrage her. He was heightening the emotional level, or "one upping" her. How many of us have been caught up in a "one upping" campaign?

What I am getting at Rocker, is there isn't one thing that leads to the dynamics of these relationships. Just in this small cross section of storyline, one could assign the blame to three different people. First Diane, then Jack, and now, his mother. The list goes on and on.

Assigning blame in these relationships is almost like tuning into a demolition derby, and trying to figure out what happened at the beginning.

We all have issues. Everyone of us. I do, you do, Skip does, everyone. We all deal with our issues differently. Most of us are completely unaware of our issues. Lord knows I had a bucketful and didn't think I had any.

These relationships are nothing more than a dynamic of issues playing off of one another. That is why someone usually gets devastated. Someone will usually wear themselves out to the point of rock bottom, and be left smoldering in the desert, with no water in sight. That is when we start looking within, to understand our own issues, and how we got to be the way we are, and what conspired to bring us to the points that we are at.


No one self examines when they are doing well, it takes something painful to start looking for the underlying reasons for these emotional dynamics.


Education. Knowledge. Communication. Just like you said, it takes all of those to have a good relationship, but you left out the most important part...It takes all of those to have a good relationship with ourselves. We have to have a good relationship with ourselves to have the knowledge, understanding, and the communicable ability to conduct ourselves well in a relationship involving another human being on a very intimate level.

[rocker99]

I'm saying the right way for Diane to handle this is to say "Jack I don't understand why you are hesitating in making a commitment to me. could you please explain"

[AlexDP]

Sorry. I got so caught up in guilt the last few weeks, I've had enough.

Are you familiar with the stages of grieving? Sounds like you might be going through the anger phase. Been there done that. I hated and was disgusted by the thought of my exwife. I would spend 3 hrs at the gym at night when I didnt have my girls just thinking about pummeling all the guys she had cheated on me with. It was a rush for sure. Be careful during this stage to not become absorbed by the anger. Anger serves its purpose but you hafta consiously understand when its purpose is over. Anger protects us...drives us sometime to be great. Just make sure its not driving you to be worse.

No, mate, I'm not angry. If anything I'm sad. I was angry. Have been for weeks. But there's nothing to be mad about really..

[PDQuick]

 

Diane didn't have any communication skills. She was taking a play out of Jack's playbook. She was emotionally immature.  

You know, this can continue on forever, and we will eventually be talking about Jack and Diane's Great Great Grandparents.

[rocker99]

Well this explains why so many relatiomships fail.

[Brer Rabbit]

Well this explains why so many relatiomships fail.

Even the good ones...right? Look at the divorce rate...especially with kids. Over half of marriages fail without kids and nearly 3/4 fail with kids. Relationships...any relationship wether friend, family, lover or spouse...are hard. And with something that difficult...and SO MANY VARIABLES...isnt it a little hard to place blame on ONE person?

[PDQuick]

OK, Laugh Break:

A duck wants a drink. He crosses the street, walks down the sidewalk, around the corner, through the door, across the floor and hops up on a barstool. The bartender sees him. The Duck looks at the Bartender and says "You Got any Grapes?"

The Bartender says "No". The duck says "Thank you" and jumps down off of the barstool, walks across the floor, through the door, around the corner, down the sidewalk and crosses the street.

The next day, our little duck crosses the street, walks down the sidewalk, around the corner, through the door, across the floor and hops up on a barstool. The bartender sees him. The Duck looks at the Bartender and says "You Got any Grapes?"

The Bartender says "I told you no". The duck says "Thank you" and jumps down off of the barstool, walks across the floor, through the door, around the corner, down the sidewalk and crosses the street.

The very next day, our little duck crosses the street, walks down the sidewalk, around the corner, through the door, across the floor and hops up on a barstool. The bartender sees him. The Duck looks at the Bartender and says "You Got any Grapes?"

The Bartender says "Ive told you no before, and if you come in here and ask me again, Im gonna nail your damn beak to the bar". The duck says "Thank you" and jumps down off of the barstool, walks accross the floor, through the door, around the corner, down the sidewalk and crosses the street.

The very next day, our little duck nervously crosses the street, walks down the sidewalk, around the corner, through the door, across the floor and hops up on a barstool. The bartender sees him. They lock eyes. The Duck looks at the Bartender, swallows and says "You Got any Nails?"

The dumbfounded Bartender says "No". The duck says "Good! Got any grapes?"

[rocker99]

Of course both people play a part in the r/s. But please...honesty would dictate in specific circumstances there is a right and a wrong.

[joop]

Communication is the key totally in any r/s.

However for this scenario im with rocker, just because diane wasnt getting her own way she tried the oldest trick in the book..to make someone jealous , crappy trick and a nasty trick. Think diane after only 16 mths needs to grow up

[PDQuick]

Very rarely in life, is there a right or a wrong, but, in every circumstance, in every situation or context, there is a right or wrong for me.

[sarah1234]

It is interesting that men place the blame upon the woman in the story straight away

I wonder if it would have been a different result if the story was the other way round

[SlipKnot]

there are different types of communication. deciding what to have for dinner is on a different level from deciding to get married, there is much more at stake in a marriage commitment. obviously. before two people can talk about the big stuff, there has to be a feeling of safety for both regarding how their own particular viewpoint will be received. often, we dont talk about something, or worse, lie about our stand on it, because we are afraid of what the other persons reaction will be. so we avoid the subject, and both are now afraid of what the other will say and the whole thing escalates. jack may have had legitimate reasons for his hesitation, but he said nothing. diane was frightened and did what she could without actually opening a dialog, which she should have done. both and neither are at fault, depending on how you want to look at it. like your soup, PDQ, take out one piece of vegetable and its potato soup, another and its mushroom, yet another and its some weird meat-like substance, each spoonful has its own flavour though no single spoon represents the whole. jack and diane need to own their own faults and realize that no relationship is guaranteed; sometimes, they just dont work and it really isnt anyones fault; one just likes more pepper than the other. give the other person the opportunity to know what you are thinking and show them that they are safe telling you the same, and then work toward each other if you can. if you cant, then understand that maybe it just wasnt meant to be, that you are both still valuable individuals, and that nobody needs to leave diminished. PDQ, there is a country song that im sure you will be familiar with that illustrates this very well and was one of the first country tunes that turned me onto the genre, "Better Man" by Clint Black. Doesnt mean it will never hurt, but it doesnt have to sting, and maybe it would save the odd one that dies for lack of trust and communication, or maturity. i ramble...

SK

[SlipKnot]

btw, great discussion

thanks PDQ

[sarah1234]

there are different types of communication. deciding what to have for dinner is on a different level from deciding to get married, there is much more at stake in a marriage commitment. obviously. before two people can talk about the big stuff, there has to be a feeling of safety for both regarding how their own particular viewpoint will be received. often, we dont talk about something, or worse, lie about our stand on it, because we are afraid of what the other persons reaction will be. so we avoid the subject, and both are now afraid of what the other will say and the whole thing escalates. jack may have had legitimate reasons for his hesitation, but he said nothing. diane was frightened and did what she could without actually opening a dialog, which she should have done. both and neither are at fault, depending on how you want to look at it. like your soup, PDQ, take out one piece of vegetable and its potato soup, another and its mushroom, yet another and its some weird meat-like substance, each spoonful has its own flavour though no single spoon represents the whole. jack and diane need to own their own faults and realize that no relationship is guaranteed; sometimes, they just dont work and it really isnt anyones fault; one just likes more pepper than the other. give the other person the opportunity to know what you are thinking and show them that they are safe telling you the same, and then work toward each other if you can. if you cant, then understand that maybe it just wasnt meant to be, that you are both still valuable individuals, and that nobody needs to leave diminished. PDQ, there is a country song that im sure you will be familiar with that illustrates this very well and was one of the first country tunes that turned me onto the genre, "Better Man" by Clint Black. Doesnt mean it will never hurt, but it doesnt have to sting, and maybe it would save the odd one that dies for lack of trust and communication, or maturity. i ramble...

SK

[PDQuick]

Thank you Slipknot, well said. If I may expand on it.

There needs to be a lot of room for communication in a relationship. What there isn't a lot of room for is fear, emotional insecurity, and emotional immaturity. Everyone on this board had an emotional insecurity, or some type of emotional immaturity. It is what kept us in these dyfunctional relationships. Like it or not, there is truth to it.

[joop]

Code:

It is interesting that men place the blame upon the woman in the story straight away

I wonder if it would have been a different result if the story was the other way round

oh come on sarah, just replace the names the other way round. My take would have been the same if it was the other way.

We both know that in a r/s games like that lead to escalations no matter which party flirts.

[sarah1234]

Code:

It is interesting that men place the blame upon the woman in the story straight away

I wonder if it would have been a different result if the story was the other way round

oh come on sarah, just replace the names the other way round. My take would have been the same if it was the other way.

We both know that in a r/s games like that lead to escalations no matter which party flirts.

More than one person related this situation to themselves instantly, and it came across their feelings of their ex cloud their perspective of other situations, easier to react with 'that is wrong' than looking a lot deeper into the reasons these things happen.

[Brer Rabbit]

Code:

It is interesting that men place the blame upon the woman in the story straight away

I wonder if it would have been a different result if the story was the other way round

oh come on sarah, just replace the names the other way round. My take would have been the same if it was the other way.

We both know that in a r/s games like that lead to escalations no matter which party flirts.

More than one person related this situation to themselves instantly, and it came across their feelings of their ex cloud their perspective of other situations, easier to react with 'that is wrong' than looking a lot deeper into the reasons these things happen.

Sarah, this sounds like its hitting close to home with you as well. I do hafta ask, why is it "Man vs Woman" for you. What if Jack was short for Jacklene?