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Relationship Partner with BPD (Straight and LGBT+) => Romantic Relationship | Detaching and Learning after a Failed Relationship => Topic started by: GreenMango on August 02, 2012, 10:14:37 PM



Title: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: GreenMango on August 02, 2012, 10:14:37 PM
Hi Leaving Board,

Starting this thread to check and see how familiar members where with the Grief Process.  One part of the grief process is Bargaining.  


Bargaining

Bargaining

You try to negotiate to change the situation.

In the Kübler-Ross model, if you've lost a spouse to death you might bargain with God, "I'll be a better person if you'd just bring him back". In a relationship, you might approach your partner who is asking for the break-up and say "If you'll stay, I'll change". 

Bargaining is that stage of the break-up when you’re trying to make deals and compromises. It’s when you start talking about how an open relationship might be a possibility or a long-distance thing could work. It’s when you say to your partner, “if you just did this then I could do that and it would work”. It’s when you say to yourself that you’ll do x, y, z to be a better spouse so that the relationship doesn’t have to end.

Do you find yourself bargaining now?  Did you bargain while you were in the relationship?  What were some of the things you see yourself bargaining for?


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: nocrazy on August 03, 2012, 12:16:24 AM
Oh, Lord.

I bargained it all.

I bargained over and over again, against all odds.

Too may to list...

Ill start with the rehab though. I knew ot was done, but when he said rehab, I thought, yes. That will do it.

I thought more money would solve things.

I thought giving him a lot of freedom would solve the issues.

I tried to be more submissive, like a really nice girl, then tried to be stronger than I wanted to be, trying to make it work, because THERE HAD TO BE SOMETHING... .that would make it work.

I thought more sex would help.

I thought fawning over him might be what he needed.

I was with him for 10 years. I tried it all. The relationship should have ended in the 2nd year.

I have our gorgeous son from it, so it is not a total regret.



Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: bb12 on August 03, 2012, 05:58:03 AM
This is wonderful GM - and the source of my greatest shame

I only realized recently that bargaining equals trying to control

But we can never control another person, only ourselves.

I bargained a lot within the r/s but even more out of it. And when he acquiesced or conceded and begrudgingly did what begged of him, it never felt good. I would do over-compensatory things like pay for everything, flatter him, while he gave me nothing. His mere presence was meant to be his demonstration of compromise... .Of reciprocity.

The emotion we feel is doubt or anxiety about how they feel about us... .What they're thinking. So what we are really trying to control, by controlling them, is our own anxiety levels!

Our core beliefs tell us we are not worthy of love, so we choose a partner who will confirm that belief.

We must find a way to lower our anxiety levels that does not involve them!

So why not work on ourselves and change the core belief

Bargaining's for the birds!

|iiii

Bb12


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: Neglecture on August 03, 2012, 07:38:00 AM
Much of the bargaining that occurred between me and my exBPDgf involved me making many concessions to align with her OCD tendencies as well.  I asked her how I could make my house more accommodating for her and she gave me a list of no less than 25 items... .most of them were simple items that I readily took on as they actually improved my home. But the fact of the matter was that the even when the entire list was compete there was always something.  She could never be satisfied... .I had to cut my hair, or it was the way I dressed, or they words I used to greet her.  She was hypersensitive and there's no bargaining that will help resolve that.

She wanted me to stop volunteering so I could spend more time with her.  Her work schedule was crazy back then, and when I called her on it, she says that's different, its for work.  I said, wait a minute, a commitment is a commitment and I have a responsibility to the events and organizations I pledged my time too.  She couldn't process that very well... .

Also I thought that my romantic gestures would be appreciated and valued, but no matter how many amazing things you do for pwBPD they will never offset the small trivial items that sting them and form the abandonment and rejection fears that undermine the relationship.





Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: sirhero on August 03, 2012, 07:56:38 AM
I gave up bargaining after awhile. I realized that whatever I did would never be good enough or would be forgotten when a rage moment happened. Though everything sweet I did would surface when recycle attempts were made and I was painted white again.


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: T. Moore on August 03, 2012, 08:02:36 AM
I bargained a lot also over the 10 year r/s.  I found myself consistantly compromising my own values to appease her in the hopes that she would become a better person, that she would stop lying, cheating, and drinking/abusing drugs.  After her overdose, hospitalization and 1 month of treatment counseling a few years ago, I hoped and prayed that things would get better.  It did for a while but then I found myself bargaining again and did everything I could to get her back into couseling.  I could not force her, as she blamed me for the previous hospitalization.  I feel that even now I am having to bargain with her in terms of our children.  Great Topic GM!

T. Moore  


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: maria1 on August 03, 2012, 11:18:32 AM
I feel myself bargainig now in grief in a similar way to when I have lost people to death. Except BPDex is very much alive. NC however is about making him dead to me and me dead to him.

I think bargaining in grief is about fighting acceptance. It's a necessary stage to get to acceptance.

I think i am moving in and out of bargaining currently. it goes like this:

If I bump into him and just say the right thing or react in the right way he'll remember everything that was good. He will see the light, understand he is ill and all will get better;

If I maintain strict NC he will not cope without me because he really did love me. This will cause him to seek therapy and get better.

Neither of these are realistic. They are based in fantasy and denial. But the bargaining stops the pain of full acceptance of his disorder. Because full acceptance of the disorder actually means accepting that the man I thought I loved and loved me more than anybody ever is dead. He's more than dead; he never really existed. The closest I can get to accepting that is grieving his 'death'.

No room for bargaining any more. Just cold harsh acceptance.



Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: Rise on August 03, 2012, 02:03:22 PM
I did bargain quite a bit. It started with trying to lure my ex back in with promises of addressing my own behavior. I told her I wouldn't get mad at her anymore. I'd be there whenever she wanted me to. I'd get my life on track. Basically I was trying to show her that I could be the man that she wanted. Then I started bargaining on the nature of the relationship. I told her I didn't need a commitment. I just wanted to take things slowly. That turned into me telling her that if she wanted to date other guys that would be okay, as long as she wanted to date me.

I only realized recently that bargaining equals trying to control

bb is absolutely correct. It's about trying to regain control of the situation, and our partner. It's also one of the biggest indicators of a complete lack of control. And that's what's so scary about it. I was so desperate to just have any sort of control over what was happening that I was willing to make myself miserable. I know now that I never would have been happy with my ex dating other people, and the fact that I opened myself up to that possibility just shows how desperate I was.

In a strange way the bargaining stage turned into a rather positive experience. In my attempts to become a better person for her, it started me down the path to being a better person for myself.


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: GreenMango on August 08, 2012, 10:28:45 PM
I know I ended up compromising a lot to not end up feeling the depression and loss from grief.



Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: Arthur on August 08, 2012, 11:10:15 PM
I have 27 years of bargining with my wBPD.

1 A better house will make her happy

2 More money will stop her assults

3 Turning a blind eye to her drug abuse will eliminate fights

4 ignoring her "flirting" because I did not want to seem to jealous

5 ignoring what "flirting" really meant because I was afraid of a break up

6 Marry her will settle things down

7 ignoreing naked photos with another man because she said it was my fault

8 believing no sex occured, they were just playing

I actually let her talk me into the several times I found evidence of her with otherr men that no sex occurred because there was no grafic photos of sex.  That lasted 2 years until I found a video on the internet of her with a different man.  Never underestimate how manipulative a BPD can be and where you end up when you bargin your soul away to keep your relationship.

Now I have no more capacity to bargin, I can't believe anything she says and she in turn shows no respect to anything.  Things are bad.  Boundries have no meaning to her so the story enters it's last chapter.  Great thread

Arthur


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: athamandia on August 09, 2012, 07:07:20 AM
funny thing is that my uBPDx did everything in his power to get ME back. I remember that he asked me to come to his house one day months after we broke up and wanted us to try again (for the millionth time... .and believe me, I loved him enough to try) and I just kept telling him I was confused by his treatment (emotional and verbal abuse) of me and his need to always be with someone else as soon as we broke up me. He said he only wanted to talk about our future and to not keep going backwards. Everytime I tried to address his/our issues, he didn't want to hear it. Anyway, so many more attempts later to try to stay together and it all blew up again. He's with another woman and I still wonder if I didn't do enough.  He claims that he never loved anyone so much as he loved me and that he realizes that things were not always easy for me or him during our relationship. He also said at some point that he couldn't wait for me to commit to him. So now I feel like the BPD and he appears to be the normal one.  Even though I know that I'm so much healthier without him, I feel horrible guilt at times. I think that maybe he will come around again. In the end, had I not gone back after our first breakup four years ago (when he piled up ALL my belongings in the driveway when I told him I was leaving after I saw his profile on a dating website that he purpously left on my laptop) I would have saved myself so many tears, embarrassment and more importantly my self-esteem.


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: WhiteNinja on August 10, 2012, 04:50:19 PM
athamandia: If you dont mind me asking, how did you go about finally breaking it off the final time. I fell into the bargaining stage last night (the exBPDgf was the bargainer) while I was in tears. I broke NC because 'good friend' convinced me it was the right thing to do... .WRONG. I heard all the things you said... never loved someone as much as me, truly loves me, wants to be with me forever, missed me so much, is having a hard time not jumping on top of me, wants to compromise and give it a second chance, etc. I remained in control of the situation despite breaking down in tears from the pain, lies, empty promises. I knew she was lying about everything because we have mutual friends who informed me about everything she had said/done after she dumped me on my birthday. Today she felt threatened by not having control over the situation so started giving me the "i dont want to live", "i want to die", "i dont want to be hear anymore", "why are you making this so difficult". I texted her mom as my therapist suggested to make her aware the suicidal threats, which she 'assured' me "she has everything under control and to not worry". After those threats against her life I am terrified to just go NC in fear of what she will do. I feel like I should just maintain control, no sex, minimal texting (one/two word responses), remain about me me me and not her and her needs. I dont know what to do and am scared ___less and I don't feel like pooping myself over this  lol ... .lame attempt at humor


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: athamandia on August 10, 2012, 08:44:54 PM
Hi WhiteNinja.

Well I just mistakenly deleted my lengthy answer to you. Ugh!

To sum it up, you must walk away now. Assuming you have no children, you must do it asap. Do not stay any longer out of a sense of FOG just as I did and so many others do. Five years were spent in agony, confusion, abuse etc. I knew I was way in over my head in terms of being able to handle it. It may be tough to consider walking away, but your self-esteem, heart and mind will be spared. I was forced to walk away by him this final time. Most times I left because of the mind games, silent treatment and emotionl abuse. Though his rejection of me has been so brutal for me to accept at times, it was the best gift he had ever given me. If you don't walk away, she eventually will. 



Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: doubleAries on August 10, 2012, 10:36:38 PM
well, what a timely thread!

This is EXACTLY what I am involved in right now. And have been for 17+ years. I just yesterday moved into the "guest house" (actually a tiny camping trailer). My husband is not a BPD, he's a schizophrenic (actually doing a treatment that has had amazing results, but there are still lots of "negative" symptoms and I think my T--who is also counseling husband seperately from me right now--is hinting that there may be some schizoid PD issues). But I grew up with a uBPD witch mom. As a child I did not understand projection. Even though i understand it now, I am still susceptible to it. It is frustrating to identify a problem but have no idea what to do about it.

My marriage for the last 17 years has been very volatile. And i have spent an inordinate amount of time making up excuses for my husband and his really bad behavior. Most of the time, he ignores me and shuts me out completely. When i push for something a little more personal, he says he can't think of anything to say. If i continue to push, he gets angry and says/implies that i am a dramatic trouble-looking-for harpy. I then retreat and scrutinize myself endlessly for signs of this being true. I resolve to be a "better person"--quite being so selfish and try harder to accomodate him. I can sound pretty convincing to myself, with things like "we all have to accept people for who they are, and clearly I'm not holding up my end" (my mom regularly told me how selfish i was and even though i don't believe that, i apparently DO believe it--I worry about it ALL THE TIME) "maybe I'm just making too much about all this, maybe the problem is with me and I'm too needy and dependent, and i need to back off and learn how to be more self contained (husband regularly goes weeks--even months--without saying anything personal to me at all, only what is absolutely necessary to keep the household going---when i express to him I would like for him to give me a little more of his time, to show me that he cares about me, he becomes angry, rolls his eyes, lets me know in no uncertain terms that I am being "hysterical" and "impractical". I'm asking for some crumbs of affection and have come to believe somewhere inside myself that I'm asking for too much).

Each year, i become more and more worn down, beaten, defeated. It's pretty bad right now. I've spent the last few months (since learning from my T that there is a name for the hell i grew up in/with---BPD witch mom) introspective, seeing things differently than I ever have---same memories, different perspective. I understand now that it didn't matter what i did or didn't do as a kid, there was going to be a beating and a lengthy emotional/verbal rage. My alleged "coping skills" didn't work then. And they still aren't working now. And the problem is, i can identify this, but am at a loss as to what to do instead.

I really got pissed off at my husband last night over something he said (a justification for a previous cruel behavior, and dismissal of my attempt to explain the hurt I felt about the incident, and then told me the real issue is that I can't stand it if i'm not the center of attention. For crying out loud--I was headed to the hospital for major surgery and he he was making sure he was prepared for a fire or EMT call, so he could respond and go help someone else, leaving me to deal with my surgery myself). Then today, after my first night in the camp trailer, he was moping around. This is a regular pattern that i feel helpless to effect: He bullies me and belittles me until I stand up for myself, then he becomes the martyr, feeling sorry for himself for having to endure my "lectures" and "wrath" (as he calls it--this works out nicely for him--as a kid, any attempts by me to establish--let alone enforce--boundaries with my mom were labeled DEFIANCE. I do not engage in "wrath". In fact, i feel pathetic in my pleading for him to stop treating me so crappy, but he labels it "wrath" and then I devolve into scrutinizing myself for any sign of truth to this accusation, just as i did as a kid). So after months and months (years actually) of utter neglect, all of a sudden, husband conjures up a pouty face, an awkward hug, a pat on the shoulder in passing, a kiss on top of the head. That's the best it gets. And those crumbs of affection usually get the desired effect--I'm so pathetic and desperate that all is forgiven in exchange for a pat on the shoulder. Except i don't really feel like it anymore. But still, i found myself today telling myself "well, see? When he finally gives me what I've been asking for, I turn it down. See? That proves the problem is ME." But i already know this movie: the pat on the shoulder (gee, could he spare it?) is a manipulation. As soon as i cave in, all goes back to exactly what is was before. I'm crawling around like a pathetic junky, begging for attention of any kind from a brick wall, while he easily convinces me that i'm too demanding, impractical, selfish, rage filled, and a drama queen. I spend my life utterly alone, with another person in the immediate vicinity who is not available and wants me to believe there is something wrong with me for wanting to be friends, to be intimate, to want to share our lives in more than simple physical proximity. i don't have exacting specific lists of behavior I expect. It's so vague as to have become meaningless. When i reach the point I just can't deal with it anymore, and suggest maybe we aren't working out so well, he explodes and claims that this is proof that i am the cause of his low self esteem (it's my home and property and business--we work together--which i paid completely off long before i ever even met him) and the rug could be yanked out from under him at any time, because i'm selfish. And I've bent over backwards to try to prove this isn't true--to the point that I am absolutely miserable but afraid to throw him out, afraid to even tell him that HE'S the one who should move into the camping trailer.

Most of my bargaining is of the making up excuses and convincing myself that I'm to blame and need to shape up variety. But i've tried other bargainings too.

Husband often lets his unhappiness be known. He lets me know that he is a Stanford graduate, and were it not for the blasted bad luck of schizophrenia, he'd certainly not be in such a trashy place with such a 2nd rate wife and stupid job. Over the years, i have asked him uncountable times "then why are you here?" and his answer is "because I'm afraid to move out and start over--to have to find a new job, and new home". It took me 15 years to realize that the answer has nothing at all to do with me. Not because he loves me and wants to work things out, nothing like that. Just because he's afraid to start over. And I'm still putting up with it. I don't know why. I really don't. It's embarrassing, humiliating, and defeating. Why can't I stop this? What the hell is wrong with me?   


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: doubleAries on August 10, 2012, 10:44:53 PM
Lost track--was trying to tell about my other forms of bargaining. I've tried to accomodate husband in any way possible. If he's afraid to leave, he could stay here and we could be business partners. NO--not acceptable to him. He could leave and we could be business partners. NO. he could just leave. WAIL! Yanking the rug out from under him! I'm beginning to believe he likes the way it is. He can avoid personal responsibility for his own emotions (something forbidden in his FOO), has a willing pathetic vessel to project those unwanted and inconvenient emotions onto, and a facade for the rest of the world--who he wants to see him as "normal', non-schizophrenic, problem free, married man (whether it's true or not--and the image is more important than the substance).

For years, what has stopped me from just jumping in my car and running away (from MY home and business that I paid off years and years ago!) is that all this is in my name and the financial responsibility falls on me. And a newer reason: running away doesn't solve my inability to deal appropriately with these issues.


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: patientandclear on August 11, 2012, 12:22:48 AM
Oh DoubleAries, I so don't want you to spend the rest of your life in that situation.  It sounds like there is a lot of evidence that your husband is not ever going to provide you the emotional sustenance you want.  I think it is much lonelier to be with another person who withholds caring and insight and empathy from you than to be actually by yourself.  If in fact there is little reason to expect your H to be a better partner than this, I hope you can give yourself permission to make a major move and start a different existence without receiving the message daily from the most proximate person to you that you are of no interest.

I often think of your posts (you posted a while back about your partner when you were a very young woman who used the exact same phrases with you and other women, about how unique and special you were--a post that I've come back to again and again in my mind as I struggle to understand that these wonderful things my uBPDex said to me did not in any way mean I was unique or special to him).  It is evident that you are a very thoughtful, insightful, loving person.  You deserve so, so much better than the way you describe this marriage.



Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: Surnia on August 11, 2012, 04:44:39 AM
Very interesting here.

And confusing too. I read trough your experiences... .and what about enabling? Is it more or less the same? Or is it more like this: In the rs, I was enabling a lot, like ignore his drinking, his problems to find work ... .and when the rs failed, I start to bargain to have him back?

Or be more precise about myself: I drunk my daily beer with him (while he drunk four), I was going for work of course, while he played "Angry birds".

Now while separeted, and thinking about divorce I find me perhaps willing to continue when he would go for work, stop drinking and go for counseling to work on his anger problem (wich is not very realistic,  ;p )

This is bargaining, I think.



Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: GreenMango on August 11, 2012, 01:17:41 PM
Bargaining can be a lot of things.

Like:

Things aren't really that bad

If I just do more

If I complain less

If I ask for less




Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: doubleAries on August 12, 2012, 02:10:19 AM
Bargaining can be a lot of things.

Like:

Things aren't really that bad

If I just do more

If I complain less

If I ask for less


BINGO!

Are you sure you haven't been lurking around my house and brain, spying on my conversations with myself? I've boiled them down to these exact words to save time, because the elaborations on each of these is no longer necessary... .



Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: GettinStronger on August 12, 2012, 08:32:20 AM
I had bargained and bargained.  And like everyone else... .this never worked, it was never enough or to his liking or done the right way... .and his compromises were none... .why should he have to compromise?  ?What was ok one day was not ok the next day.  In retrospect, my life was a pure hell. 


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: Surnia on August 12, 2012, 08:43:16 AM
Thank you greenmango

For me definitly: If I do more

Variation: If I communicate better

And: If I file for separation, he will wake up, will apologize and run for a T!

About the last one I feel  a bit ashamed. So beyond reality!  ;p

Surnia


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: santhony on August 12, 2012, 06:49:00 PM
GM,

Thanks for posting, I didn't even realize some of the bargains I made over the years.  We do this a lot in AA and Alanon, which I'm new to Alanon.  We keep setting our limits lower and lower before we get help.  If this happens... .then I'll get help.  My wBPD was so manipulative and deceptive in bargaining and getting you to give concessions, I didn't even know what was happening.  When I would feel I gave up something, I would then try to do something for myself without asking and most of the time the "give and take" was so out of line it added further to the chaos and her control. 

For example:  We had a nice house in a nice neighborhood, we were given the down payment, were there for 3 years then gave birth to our 3rd kid and we had a 3 bedroom.  I remember spending a year trying to work with her and contractor to just add one room.  It was an unbelievably emotional experience... .nothing was right, the architect left one day and when we called him to come back, he never returned my call.  All my ideas were bad... .so all of sudden the best place to live was near her sister and brother on the other side of town.  Well all the houses in the new neighborhood were not good enough, however I got so emotional over leaving I found a huge house... .6 bedrooms, blah, blah and of course she loved it, so I was just happy to be on the "good" list and not have go through the process of finding reasonable house at an appropriate price.  Within 2 months we sold a house and where the payment was $1,800 a month to a monster house, payment $9,000... .so I took the bullet for that because I agreed when she found the house... ."oh yea we can do it", I'm going to be the night in shining armor.  Crash and burn, got out by the skin of our teeth and I ended up talking her into a small house around the corner that she hated, but we could rent it at a reasonable price... .she's in that house now, my stuff is on the side of the house. 

So true the bargaining was constant and I was always on the losing end.  Which leads to this... .in business, when someone is so unreasonable with their price and expectations, you have to just walk away, it's tough because some people make a very good case to lower price, and add more features, but with a BPD... .there is no deal, they don't want the features we have to offer and it's just a game to get you to give-up concessions (emotions, morals, friends, family, money, time, freedom), so they can control and protect, we're negotiating in two different worlds.  None of those items matter to a BPD, so they can ask for them there's no way you can get those items in return, like in business, they don't have anything to offer. 

I'm done bargaining, I am going to let attorneys, judges and mediators deal with her.  I've set my goals... .which should go on another post, but I will not take another offer from her, I have no intentions of seeing a list she may want to draft.  I'm lucky right now because she has a replacement, so I haven't been tested, and who know maybe I won't, maybe she'll marry this guy and they will live happily every after, in which case, he can get step up to the bargaining table with her and start paying.  I ended-up bargaining everything away.  I left with zero money and when I realized I only had my mom and sister and a couple friends to call, I was scared they wouldn't take my call because wBPD hated both of them and I supported all the alienation of my mom and sis.  Thank good, they waited with open arms and knew the day was coming and now offer so much support. 

Funny when she split me, I had just got a great job with a national company and full benefits.  She was in constant frustration over my income, and when I mentioned the job, after she said she needed to find herself, she replied... ."its not about the money", it almost makes me laugh now... .so BPD... .textbook BPD.  It will always be a chase, you will bargain for everything. She always sit and wait, unless it's so unattainable, then she'll pursue.  I ran out of things to give, in order to get her, to watch t.v. on the couch with me was a major production... .tried to tell her it's not about the t.v. show, it's just about hanging out and relaxing and talking about whatever show is on.  If she did concede, it was torture for her and me... .just to sit on the couch!  But when you are in the thick of it, it seems normal.  No more deals! No more pricing my emotions and relationship.  My future relationships will have compromise, but it won't like this last relationship, and I'm going to learn what a healthy relationship looks like.


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: broken but not beaten on March 03, 2013, 05:46:27 PM
I bargained my own soul away to get a second chance with ex gf,to give so much of yourself to another just isn't healthy or a sustainable dynamic for a long lasting r/ship,of course I only see that now. I think she resented me when I couldn't make her happy no more,I'd given all I had and when I tried to speak up or have a voice it was frowned upon,I sold the fairy tale to her but couldn't sustain it,maybe I contributed to my own demise in a bigger way than I first thought.


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: oricle on March 03, 2013, 06:04:35 PM
Bargaining for me was bending over backwards, letting her take time to herself and doing whatever she wanted to do or asked of me to make sure that everything would be ok... .  i wouldn't get angry about it either, and it would win her back 3 times, every time changing myself and losing more of me in the process... .  

I didn't realise how stressed and angry on the inside it was making me, I went to the docs for a regular checkup on the last cycle because things were tough, i was stressed out and depressed and i didn't know what was going on, my blood pressure was high, other things were out of whack... .  after it all ended only a few weeks later... .  i went back to get results and did some retesting... .  blood pressure was closer to normal and all the other issues had subsided or returned to a normal range... .  it really is surprising what stress can do to your body and what we will endure and put ourselves through for the people we love!


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: laidee on March 04, 2013, 11:27:32 AM
I'm glad this post was bumped up!

I'm still in my marriage, but I do find myself bargaining. Didn't realize that's what i'm doing until I read about it here. I am guilty of:

  • thinking if I change my behavior and do what he wants then things would be better


  • paying for things for him (food, movies, bills)


  • pretty much waiting on him and and foot (he's so needy at times)


  • let him go out and not be upset that he stays out half the night



Yea... .  i'm seeing now that none of this matters and is further adding to my stress


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: tailspin on March 04, 2013, 05:00:10 PM
Oh I'm totally with bb12... .  the source of my greatest shame.  I bargained until I realized my self esteem was being shattered.  It's a horrible feeling to hit the bottom and I think bargaining is the fastest way to get there.  Because no matter what we offer as a sacrifice, no matter what we are willing to do or endure, nothing we can possibly say or do will ever be good enough.  So we are left alone with ourselves.  They are gone.  We remain.

This is when the tears come... .  and they flow without end it seems. 

I wasn't just bargaining with my ex.  I was bargaining with myself to avoid being alone.  Anything to not be alone.  Well, being alone is exactly where I needed to be.  When my sould was shattered I found out who I really was.  Looking up from the bottom and figuring out how I got there was the first step to healing. 

tailspin



Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: bb12 on March 04, 2013, 06:18:04 PM
I wasn't just bargaining with my ex.  I was bargaining with myself to avoid being alone.  Anything to not be alone.  Well, being alone is exactly where I needed to be.  When my sould was shattered I found out who I really was.  Looking up from the bottom and figuring out how I got there was the first step to healing.  

I have been alone most of my adult life. A few major relationships that all ended amicably, but I have mostly been a solo operator - and happily so... .  or so I thought! My exBPD got over my walls because I was lonely. I let him stay and abuse me because I was lonely. And I bargained for him to come back because I was lonely. Facing my alone-ness head on was the fruit of this Borderline labour. To realise I didn't know myself and was lonely because of it.

Consciousness more generally at all decision points and in all observations is the reward for this agony. And I can recognise that bargaining as mostly being with myself... .  and not really with him. I can see the fleeting but powerful impulses to contact him as actually being lapses in my self-esteem and not really a desire to reconnect.

12 months later, I have a brand new relationship... .  with myself. And I treat that person with the same respect and love I so freely gave to undeserving others all these years. For the first time, I choose the solo voyage over r/ships borne of need instead of desire and a more considered selection.

BB12


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: tailspin on March 04, 2013, 06:22:23 PM
I wasn't just bargaining with my ex.  I was bargaining with myself to avoid being alone.  Anything to not be alone.  Well, being alone is exactly where I needed to be.  When my sould was shattered I found out who I really was.  Looking up from the bottom and figuring out how I got there was the first step to healing.  

I have been alone most of my adult life. A few major relationships that all ended amicably, but I have mostly been a solo operator - and happily so... .  or so I thought! My exBPD got over my walls because I was lonely. I let him stay and abuse me because I was lonely. And I bargained for him to come back because I was lonely. Facing my alone-ness head on was the fruit of this Borderline labour. To realise I didn't know myself and was lonely because of it.

Consciousness more generally at all decision points and in all observations is the reward for this agony. And I can recognise that bargaining as mostly being with myself... .  and not really with him. I can see the fleeting but powerful impulses to contact him as actually being lapses in my self-esteem and not really a desire to reconnect.

12 months later, I have a brand new relationship... .  with myself. And I treat that person with the same respect and love I so freely gave to undeserving others all these years. For the first time, I choose the solo voyage over r/ships borne of need instead of desire and a more considered selection.

BB12

bb12... .  you just moved me to tears.  I am so proud of you and I'm so proud to know you.  I wish you were my neighbor.  You are most certainly my sister

tailspin


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: bb12 on March 04, 2013, 06:39:09 PM
 

thanks Tailspin

Our journeys have been very similar - both in their chronology and healing stages

Proud of you too!

BB12

|iiii


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: Tormenta on March 05, 2013, 02:24:40 PM
I had bargained and bargained.  And like everyone else... .  this never worked, it was never enough or to his liking or done the right way... .  and his compromises were none... .  why should he have to compromise?  ?What was ok one day was not ok the next day.  In retrospect, my life was a pure hell. 

Yes, exactly!

- He doesn´t want to make plans until the last minute to please his wishes - but it´s OK, I can wait.

- He makes his own plans without me without telling me a word until the last minute - but it´s OK, I can wait and make my own plans at the last minute

- He doesn´t compromise with me - it´s OK! It´s life, I can live the day and not worry for the future.

And at the end he just left me.

Very interesting topic!

|iiii


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: expos on March 16, 2013, 08:07:23 PM
Bargains I gave into... .  all within the FIRST year of marriage:

- Brand new home in a great suburb

- A dog (she wanted two of them, but I stayed strong)

- Upgraded diamonds on wedding band/rings

- Vacations (no sex on the vacations either!)

- the list could on and on... .  

Nothing was good enough, other people always had better things, better vacations, better cars, more money, etc.  Just killed my confidence.  She wanted a kid mere 10 months after being married.  Just nuts. 

She is seeing someone now, I hope he is a fat old ugly man with a lot of money that treats her like garbage.  She'd probably be happier with that arrangement than with me! 


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: healingmyheart on March 16, 2013, 08:21:51 PM
I compromised my heart and soul... .  

I gave and gave and gave and innocently believed that when he said he loved him that he meant it. 

I compromised my self esteem by allowing him to question the way I dressed, the way I parented, the way I cleaned the stupid sink... .  I compromised everything.

It's ok though... .  I'll become whole again and sadly, he will still be drifting forever... .  


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: expos on March 16, 2013, 08:56:04 PM
It's ok though... .  I'll become whole again and sadly, he will still be drifting forever... .  

This is true.  These people have no real identity of their own.  They will always need SOMEONE to justify their reason for living.  It's doesn't matter who.  These people can not make it by themselves.  The constant need for approval will eventually lead them to a very lonely existence, something they so desperately fear.

You are whole because you are someone!  Your ex was a nobody.


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: Vinnie on March 16, 2013, 11:01:05 PM
I relate to you all so much!  I let her have almost complete freedom with her schedule while I took care of the kids, the cooking, the house, and provided 100% of the income. She could be out doing her volunteer work 5 nights a week and weekends too, and I didn't complain (better than having her sullen and depressed at home making the family miserable). My motivation was to make her happy with me  -- to earn her affection and admiration.

The only thing she had to do was take her car in for oil changes and maintenance - yet for years she bitterly complained how much it hurt her that she had a husband that left her to take care of her own car!


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: doubleAries on March 17, 2013, 02:44:55 PM
I have finally come to an agreement with my husband for divorce. I moved out into a rental (off my own property) and am going to sell him my property, and we are filing divorce papers tomorrow. I will have to make him do this and do all the paperwork myself, because he is happy to agree to something, then pretend it didn't happen.

Yet when I go to bed at night, right when I am in that place between sleep and awake, a sudden panic grips my chest and stomach and wakes me back up. I think "What if this is all really MY fault? What if I'm complaining too much, asking for too much, stirring things up for no good reason?" and then it takes about an hour to reason with myself--to say "yeah, sure--so long as I am willing to pretend rages aren't raining down all around me, rages that carry the threat of physical violence at times; as long as I'm willing to have no intimate emotional interaction; no changes at all allowed--like business expansion, property improvements, making friends, etc--and just always keep my mouth shut and become a shell of a person who accepts the most intensely angry projection I've ever seen, well, yeah--everything would be just fine. Oh wait--already tried that and it didn't work either."

Even as I am taking the steps to extract myself, I keep returning to the bargaining stage (at least inside my own head). While I am able to continually practise (as it were) remembering the WHOLE picture (not just the little pieces I single out), and then going through the grief part ("no, it won't work--I've already tried for a long, long time--it really is over" it's exhausting. I don't get to sleep until waaaay past the time I should to be able to get up in the morning and get to work.

My entire childhood was training for this moment. To blame myself for the failure of a relationship that never really existed. I made the whole thing up. I was actually having a frustrated relationship with what I wanted him to be. And that becomes part of my bargaining process... .  "SEE? It was my fault! If I just accept him for how he is, not how I WANT him to be, things could work!"

But the truth is, he is bipolar 1 with psychotic features (paranoid delusions), ASPD, and NPD. It's an official diagnosis, not a guess in the dark. Like his therapist has told me over and over--he is not capable of an intimate relationship. Oh, if only I was "valuable/worthy/good enough" to "fix" him... .  it would all be fine, right?

Being a "help-aholic" (codependent) is basically akin to being in the bargaining stage endlessly. What if I turned even part of that need to "help" towards myself? But I'm scared that would make me a narcissist. Geez, I'm getting tired of myself... .  


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: santa on January 29, 2014, 01:34:45 PM
Bargaining with my ex was completely useless.  :) Lol

Also, as for "bargaining with God", I did pray about the breakup of my relationship some. During my prayer, I felt like there was a question being asked of whether or not I really wanted to stay with my ex. I felt like "God" was saying that if that's what I really wanted, just ask for it and it would happen. I never asked for it though because I honestly don't think I wanted my ex back. I thought it would be a bad idea.

So, essentially, I didn't want my ex back. I was just whining.


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: GreenMango on January 29, 2014, 01:46:18 PM
Excerpt
 I was just whining.

I just got mad.

Santa you didn't do much bargaining with yourself?   


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: nevaeh on January 29, 2014, 02:14:14 PM
GreenMango... .

THANK YOU for bumping this thread.

I am in the heat of bargaining right now.  Told H I want a divorce last Friday and it has been a constant stream of bargaining from him... . he will try harder THIS time, he is getting spiritual/pastoral help, he is getting signed up for counseling, he is being overly attentive to me, everything.

He thinks I should show him grace, as though I haven't shown him that a million times over the past 18 years.

He says he will be better and it will work this time because he knows how high the stakes are.  

His bargaining is exhausting.

What occurred to me in reading through this post is that I was the one bargaining throughout the majority of our marriage.  Not with him, specifically or directly, but with myself.  I knew I couldn't be with him and I wasn't happy but I did constantly try to excuse or rationalize his behavior, as well as try to be "better" so that maybe he would stop being how he was.

NOW... . 18 years later... . he is the one bargaining.  While I already realized it, this post confirms that bargaining = control (or an attempt to regain control).

H is saying and doing everything in his power to bargain with me to get me to stay.

He doesn't want to hear that I'm past all of that.  He doesn't want to hear that I don't want to stay.  He doesn't want to hear that he should get better for himself, not just get better for me.  He doesn't want to hear that he has hurt me so much over the years that I have nothing left (he says he accepts it, but the fact that he won't let me go even though that's what I say I need tells me that he is trying to retain control).

Control.  That is the defining word of our marriage.  This is his last-ditch effort to regain control.

I talked to my counselor today and we decided that I have to stop allowing him to control me.  First step is to get him out of our bedroom, or I need to move out of the bedroom.

My sister's house is available to move in to the weekend of February 8-9.  I have to tell H within the next few days that either he moves out by x date or I am moving to my sister's house.  This is the only way I am going to break free.  Counselor said that if I stay with him he will break me down and I will end up staying even though I don't want to.

Hard days behind me... . harder days ahead.

Bargaining is a horrible thing.  In my situation, he is bargaining to give me hope that things can, and will, be better for us if only I give him one more chance.

Anyway, this thread is very appropriate for me right now.


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: santa on January 29, 2014, 02:14:26 PM
Excerpt
 I was just whining.

I just got mad.

Santa you didn't do much bargaining with yourself?   

I did. I think I did more of that when I was actually in the relationship though. It was sort of like constantly finding a way to adapt to the changing circumstances. Things may have not been ideal or the way I wanted them, but I would try to stick it out and keep moving forward.

There were certain things I just couldn't compromise though. My ex wanted me to move back to our old state with her after we'd only been in the new state for about a month and I told her no. I just couldn't do it. That's basically why we broke up. I decided not to backtrack on a whim just because she wanted to. Of course, she said the breakup with my fault and that I abandoned her, etc., but she's the one that left.


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: nevaeh on January 29, 2014, 02:20:46 PM
Thank you greenmango

For me definitly: If I do more

Variation: If I communicate better

And: If I file for separation, he will wake up, will apologize and run for a T!

About the last one I feel  a bit ashamed. So beyond reality!   

Surnia

This has happened so many times during our relationship.  There has never once been a time that he did anything to help our relationship unless he felt threatened that he would lose me.


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: Tincup on January 29, 2014, 03:49:38 PM
For me I tried to bargain with her.  Every time she would break up I would say bargain with her demands.  After all I believed everything was my fault at a certain point, so I bargained to offer lots of concessions just to stay with her.  As everyone knows it is impossible since what she says is wrong really isn't wrong but it was her reality.  I would bargain with stuff that I didn't even understand to begin with.  Talk about a no win situation... . After all I have learned I did not bargain this time around, and have set up healthy boundaries for myself.  The boundaries have really helped me a lot.  Great thread BTW...


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: GreenMango on January 29, 2014, 06:42:04 PM
nevaeh I found I did a lot of the grieving while actually still in the relationship.   Lots of bargaining over the years too.  Mine bargained at the end too.  At that point I was pretty disgusted with the whole thing myself included.  And that's when the good old fashioned part of the grief process "Anger" kicked in.   

I found the bargaining to be the most frustrating and disappointing overall.  Yet I kept doing it over and over until finally I just couldn't bargain anymore. 

I think I ran out of things to bargain with and the next set of chips were the typethat cause major longterm effects, Santa mentioned. .   It forced me to really sit down and think about what was happening. Kind of like what you are doing right now looking at what you need for your life.


Excerpt
Santa you didn't do much bargaining with yourself?   

I did. I think I did more of that when I was actually in the relationship though. It was sort of like constantly finding a way to adapt to the changing circumstances. Things may have not been ideal or the way I wanted them, but I would try to stick it out and keep moving forward.

There were certain things I just couldn't compromise though. My ex wanted me to move back to our old state with her after we'd only been in the new state for about a month and I told her no. I just couldn't do it. That's basically why we broke up. I decided not to backtrack on a whim just because she wanted to. Of course, she said the breakup with my fault and that I abandoned her, etc., but she's the one that left.

Me too.  Looking back a lot of those impulsive changing circumstances seemed to drive some of bargaining I was doing.  Wondering if i did this or that things might settled down and be normal.

Seriously it was like the blind leading the blind.   Until the big decisions like you mentioned.   

I relate this to what Tincup is talking about with the boundaries.   I honestly believe at one point or another if ya get into situation like this the hard line boundaries eventually kick in if things get bad enough.   

Sometimes it takes awhile and sadly sometimes people can really lose themselves in the bargaining to some horrific levels.   Abuse etc.

Huge lesson on what you are willing to bargain for and when just facing the loss is better.   Thepain of staying is worse than leaving.


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: Klrskies on January 29, 2014, 08:40:40 PM
I bargained in the relationship with my ex gf, but didn't come out to well... . my likely PD was like a shrewd business person, never wanting to give anything up. She told me once " no, if I start giving you what you ask for you'll just want more".

My last attempt to bargain with her was the week after we broke up. I called her, she wouldn't answer. She was so mad that i broke up with her... . i think she wanted to be the one to end it. I wrote a text, asking her remember how we began and try to return to that. I told her I still loved and needed her, but only if she could give up some control, and trust me more... . I got a text back about 6 hours later... . " don't waste my time"

Ouch" no hope in that!

I felt that was it. I still had small hopes and dreams that she would change back into the lady I'd met 4 months prior, but I started trying to feel the pain of letting her go and coping with the failed relationship laying in front of me.

Being aware of her having a possible disorder gave me cause to consider what I could have done in a positive way to help the relationship had I known. I felt sad that I may have been able to have made things much easier on both of us had I know... . but I didn't, and I dont think she does either at this time. So my belief is it's better off letting it go. I spent many, many years trying to save a marriage where the other partner didn't think she had any issues... . exhausting. I don't have the energy to do that much work and have no, or little results.

I never knew anything about her being a possible PD till a month after we split, because it was all so intense and unusual when I could stand back and look at it. Then I started looking for reasons for her behavior. So many PD's overlap, it's hard to nail it down. I could look back and play what if, but the truth is I had already decided to leave the relationship because I wasn't getting much out of it, didnt like the way my needs and wants were getting pushed aside, and couldn't find a way to alter it's course. I didn't know anything about a personality disorder being a possibility when I made that choice. When I started learning about pd's , I thought her behavior made sense to me then, that's good info to have, but not for the purpose of demonizing my ex. She's got enough to deal with going forward. I'll deal with my own pain my way. keeping it real... . she would not believe that their would be a possibility that something might be wrong with her at this time. She may down the road... . but not now.

I've tried to push therapy on people before and if they are in denial or not willing to accept and try it is a waste of energy,  time, and money. If she came out and said she wanted to work on the relationship with a professional, I would have been open to trying, but Not now... . she's dating and moved on quickly. Time for me to stay focused me.

I've bargained with god for my marriage... . years later I wished I'd let it go.


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: GreenMango on January 29, 2014, 09:25:00 PM
Sometimes we can bargain with hope.


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: Klrskies on January 30, 2014, 03:54:44 AM
Sometimes we can bargain with hope.

Yes, I see that now, thanks green mango.

Hope is also wishing to control wrather than accepting, yes?



Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: GreenMango on January 30, 2014, 02:11:38 PM
The part about accepting instead I definitely noticed that.   I would think Oh things are getting better.   Then get real hopeful thinking it would be okay even though the reality pointed to the contrary. Not really accepting the history or pattern for what it was.


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: Klrskies on January 30, 2014, 03:59:14 PM
When did your hopeful spells end?


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: nevaeh on January 30, 2014, 04:08:41 PM
Sometimes we can bargain with hope.

Very, very true.

Hope is a very powerful thing.  It is natural and "necessary" to have hope to live one's life without being in a toxic relationship.  Hope is what brought me through the past 18 years.  Hope is what is tearing at me to even THINK about giving him another chance.

"If what he says is true (HOPE)... . then things will get better and we will get happy (BARGAINING)."

I am now more hopeful about my future alone than I am about my future with him, yet that bargaining is SO engrained in me now it's really hard to stop doing it and to stop allowing myself to think that there is a chance things will get better.



Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: GreenMango on January 30, 2014, 04:30:01 PM
Klrskies,

My hope really started to wane when I started looking at the facts more.  Less waving nostalgic on the good times or a return for those.

I started to see some undeniable things like increased self medicating, extreme reactions... .  It's hard to deny things like this.   Which ironically enough denial is part of grief too.   (I'll dif that thread out next)

One of the sayings here is bpdfamily.com.  It's a hard step.

When did your Hope start to wane?


nevaeh,

Hope is really powerful. You make a really good point about looking forother things to be hopeful about. Maybe having a more realistic hope?

|iiii





Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: Klrskies on January 30, 2014, 05:26:09 PM
Green Mango,

My hope started to diminish the first time I got a communication cut off, about two months into the relationship, about the time we were coming out of the honeymoon phase. Her personality had a noticeable shift and it felt bad to me then. It was an erratic downhill slide after that. I lost hope in steps while we still together. I kept looking for some kind shift to occur, but it never materialized. My hope of it working sunk lower.

After I left her, I had new hope that she would reach out from missing me... . never happened, just a hard cutoff. I was still hopeing for her to realize that perhaps she might have some issues and return to try and talk for another month after the breakup but she had already moved on by then and I had in that time come to realize, largely thru what I learned here, that it's very unlikely for a PD to change, and the results don't fix the core issue, they just may smooth out the bumps. The whole package had turned unattractive to me now. I didn't want/couldn't handle a relationship that required that much effort to try an keep stable. I let go of most of my remaining hope then.

I'd bent over backwards in my marriage to try and hold it together, but it was exhausting, the losses were huge, and I know I could not, and didn't want to do it again. It was a hard reality.

I still have a flicker of hope from time to time, but the more time passes, the the dimmer those flickers get. I'm a good codependent. It'll be awhile before hope is completely vanished.


Title: Re: The Grief Process - Bargaining
Post by: Murbay on January 30, 2014, 07:48:48 PM
My exBPDw is proof that bargaining does not work and only causes further issue in the long term.

A year NC with her and the e-mails being sent through now are pointing out things I tried to bargain 3 years ago. She has held on to them as validation for herself but trying to use them against me now. The things I promised back then to keep the marriage working and to her breaking a promise means you must be punished.

Talked through it with my T because although I can understand that promises you make can be broken because of events outside of your control, such as divorce after the fact. The only time you should be held accountable is when you make a promise and fail to keep because of your own choices. the fact that my exBPDw cannot understand that only enforces how nothing has changed.

What she has succeeded in doing by pointing out what I begged for at the end of the marriage, is just how far I have come since then. Looking at how codependent I was at that point, even I see myself as weak and feeble. If anything I should thank her for being of assistance in my healing, except it's been 12 months NC and I'm not backing down from that  |iiii

Bargaining with a pwBPD can be almost impossible because the more you bargain, the more you are viewed as weak and therefore of no use to them. As in my case, it did me a huge favour and I'm so glad she didn't accept. Had I done much more of that, I would have become her father.