The Grief Process - Bargaining

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Bargains I gave into... .  all within the FIRST year of marriage:

- Brand new home in a great suburb

- A dog (she wanted two of them, but I stayed strong)

- Upgraded diamonds on wedding band/rings

- Vacations (no sex on the vacations either!)

- the list could on and on... .  

Nothing was good enough, other people always had better things, better vacations, better cars, more money, etc.  Just killed my confidence.  She wanted a kid mere 10 months after being married.  Just nuts. 

She is seeing someone now, I hope he is a fat old ugly man with a lot of money that treats her like garbage.  She'd probably be happier with that arrangement than with me! 

[expos]

Bargains I gave into... .  all within the FIRST year of marriage:

- Brand new home in a great suburb

- A dog (she wanted two of them, but I stayed strong)

- Upgraded diamonds on wedding band/rings

- Vacations (no sex on the vacations either!)

- the list could on and on... .  

Nothing was good enough, other people always had better things, better vacations, better cars, more money, etc.  Just killed my confidence.  She wanted a kid mere 10 months after being married.  Just nuts. 

She is seeing someone now, I hope he is a fat old ugly man with a lot of money that treats her like garbage.  She'd probably be happier with that arrangement than with me! 

[healingmyheart]

I compromised my heart and soul... .  

I gave and gave and gave and innocently believed that when he said he loved him that he meant it. 

I compromised my self esteem by allowing him to question the way I dressed, the way I parented, the way I cleaned the stupid sink... .  I compromised everything.

It's ok though... .  I'll become whole again and sadly, he will still be drifting forever... .  

[expos]

It's ok though... .  I'll become whole again and sadly, he will still be drifting forever... .  

This is true.  These people have no real identity of their own.  They will always need SOMEONE to justify their reason for living.  It's doesn't matter who.  These people can not make it by themselves.  The constant need for approval will eventually lead them to a very lonely existence, something they so desperately fear.

You are whole because you are someone!  Your ex was a nobody.

[Vinnie]

I relate to you all so much!  I let her have almost complete freedom with her schedule while I took care of the kids, the cooking, the house, and provided 100% of the income. She could be out doing her volunteer work 5 nights a week and weekends too, and I didn't complain (better than having her sullen and depressed at home making the family miserable). My motivation was to make her happy with me  -- to earn her affection and admiration.

The only thing she had to do was take her car in for oil changes and maintenance - yet for years she bitterly complained how much it hurt her that she had a husband that left her to take care of her own car!

[doubleAries]

I have finally come to an agreement with my husband for divorce. I moved out into a rental (off my own property) and am going to sell him my property, and we are filing divorce papers tomorrow. I will have to make him do this and do all the paperwork myself, because he is happy to agree to something, then pretend it didn't happen.

Yet when I go to bed at night, right when I am in that place between sleep and awake, a sudden panic grips my chest and stomach and wakes me back up. I think "What if this is all really MY fault? What if I'm complaining too much, asking for too much, stirring things up for no good reason?" and then it takes about an hour to reason with myself--to say "yeah, sure--so long as I am willing to pretend rages aren't raining down all around me, rages that carry the threat of physical violence at times; as long as I'm willing to have no intimate emotional interaction; no changes at all allowed--like business expansion, property improvements, making friends, etc--and just always keep my mouth shut and become a shell of a person who accepts the most intensely angry projection I've ever seen, well, yeah--everything would be just fine. Oh wait--already tried that and it didn't work either."

Even as I am taking the steps to extract myself, I keep returning to the bargaining stage (at least inside my own head). While I am able to continually practise (as it were) remembering the WHOLE picture (not just the little pieces I single out), and then going through the grief part ("no, it won't work--I've already tried for a long, long time--it really is over" it's exhausting. I don't get to sleep until waaaay past the time I should to be able to get up in the morning and get to work.

My entire childhood was training for this moment. To blame myself for the failure of a relationship that never really existed. I made the whole thing up. I was actually having a frustrated relationship with what I wanted him to be. And that becomes part of my bargaining process... .  "SEE? It was my fault! If I just accept him for how he is, not how I WANT him to be, things could work!"

But the truth is, he is bipolar 1 with psychotic features (paranoid delusions), ASPD, and NPD. It's an official diagnosis, not a guess in the dark. Like his therapist has told me over and over--he is not capable of an intimate relationship. Oh, if only I was "valuable/worthy/good enough" to "fix" him... .  it would all be fine, right?

Being a "help-aholic" (codependent) is basically akin to being in the bargaining stage endlessly. What if I turned even part of that need to "help" towards myself? But I'm scared that would make me a narcissist. Geez, I'm getting tired of myself... .  

[santa]

Bargaining with my ex was completely useless.  Lol

Also, as for "bargaining with God", I did pray about the breakup of my relationship some. During my prayer, I felt like there was a question being asked of whether or not I really wanted to stay with my ex. I felt like "God" was saying that if that's what I really wanted, just ask for it and it would happen. I never asked for it though because I honestly don't think I wanted my ex back. I thought it would be a bad idea.

So, essentially, I didn't want my ex back. I was just whining.

[GreenMango]

 I was just whining.

I just got mad.

Santa you didn't do much bargaining with yourself?   

[nevaeh]

GreenMango... .

THANK YOU for bumping this thread.

I am in the heat of bargaining right now.  Told H I want a divorce last Friday and it has been a constant stream of bargaining from him... . he will try harder THIS time, he is getting spiritual/pastoral help, he is getting signed up for counseling, he is being overly attentive to me, everything.

He thinks I should show him grace, as though I haven't shown him that a million times over the past 18 years.

He says he will be better and it will work this time because he knows how high the stakes are.  

His bargaining is exhausting.

What occurred to me in reading through this post is that I was the one bargaining throughout the majority of our marriage.  Not with him, specifically or directly, but with myself.  I knew I couldn't be with him and I wasn't happy but I did constantly try to excuse or rationalize his behavior, as well as try to be "better" so that maybe he would stop being how he was.

NOW... . 18 years later... . he is the one bargaining.  While I already realized it, this post confirms that bargaining = control (or an attempt to regain control).

H is saying and doing everything in his power to bargain with me to get me to stay.

He doesn't want to hear that I'm past all of that.  He doesn't want to hear that I don't want to stay.  He doesn't want to hear that he should get better for himself, not just get better for me.  He doesn't want to hear that he has hurt me so much over the years that I have nothing left (he says he accepts it, but the fact that he won't let me go even though that's what I say I need tells me that he is trying to retain control).

Control.  That is the defining word of our marriage.  This is his last-ditch effort to regain control.

I talked to my counselor today and we decided that I have to stop allowing him to control me.  First step is to get him out of our bedroom, or I need to move out of the bedroom.

My sister's house is available to move in to the weekend of February 8-9.  I have to tell H within the next few days that either he moves out by x date or I am moving to my sister's house.  This is the only way I am going to break free.  Counselor said that if I stay with him he will break me down and I will end up staying even though I don't want to.

Hard days behind me... . harder days ahead.

Bargaining is a horrible thing.  In my situation, he is bargaining to give me hope that things can, and will, be better for us if only I give him one more chance.

Anyway, this thread is very appropriate for me right now.

[santa]

 I was just whining.

I just got mad.

Santa you didn't do much bargaining with yourself?   

I did. I think I did more of that when I was actually in the relationship though. It was sort of like constantly finding a way to adapt to the changing circumstances. Things may have not been ideal or the way I wanted them, but I would try to stick it out and keep moving forward.

There were certain things I just couldn't compromise though. My ex wanted me to move back to our old state with her after we'd only been in the new state for about a month and I told her no. I just couldn't do it. That's basically why we broke up. I decided not to backtrack on a whim just because she wanted to. Of course, she said the breakup with my fault and that I abandoned her, etc., but she's the one that left.

[nevaeh]

Thank you greenmango

For me definitly: If I do more

Variation: If I communicate better

And: If I file for separation, he will wake up, will apologize and run for a T!

About the last one I feel  a bit ashamed. So beyond reality!   

Surnia

This has happened so many times during our relationship.  There has never once been a time that he did anything to help our relationship unless he felt threatened that he would lose me.

[Tincup]

For me I tried to bargain with her.  Every time she would break up I would say bargain with her demands.  After all I believed everything was my fault at a certain point, so I bargained to offer lots of concessions just to stay with her.  As everyone knows it is impossible since what she says is wrong really isn't wrong but it was her reality.  I would bargain with stuff that I didn't even understand to begin with.  Talk about a no win situation... . After all I have learned I did not bargain this time around, and have set up healthy boundaries for myself.  The boundaries have really helped me a lot.  Great thread BTW...

[GreenMango]

nevaeh I found I did a lot of the grieving while actually still in the relationship.   Lots of bargaining over the years too.  Mine bargained at the end too.  At that point I was pretty disgusted with the whole thing myself included.  And that's when the good old fashioned part of the grief process "Anger" kicked in.   

I found the bargaining to be the most frustrating and disappointing overall.  Yet I kept doing it over and over until finally I just couldn't bargain anymore. 

I think I ran out of things to bargain with and the next set of chips were the typethat cause major longterm effects, Santa mentioned. .   It forced me to really sit down and think about what was happening. Kind of like what you are doing right now looking at what you need for your life.

Santa you didn't do much bargaining with yourself?   

I did. I think I did more of that when I was actually in the relationship though. It was sort of like constantly finding a way to adapt to the changing circumstances. Things may have not been ideal or the way I wanted them, but I would try to stick it out and keep moving forward.

There were certain things I just couldn't compromise though. My ex wanted me to move back to our old state with her after we'd only been in the new state for about a month and I told her no. I just couldn't do it. That's basically why we broke up. I decided not to backtrack on a whim just because she wanted to. Of course, she said the breakup with my fault and that I abandoned her, etc., but she's the one that left.

Me too.  Looking back a lot of those impulsive changing circumstances seemed to drive some of bargaining I was doing.  Wondering if i did this or that things might settled down and be normal.

Seriously it was like the blind leading the blind.   Until the big decisions like you mentioned.   

I relate this to what Tincup is talking about with the boundaries.   I honestly believe at one point or another if ya get into situation like this the hard line boundaries eventually kick in if things get bad enough.   

Sometimes it takes awhile and sadly sometimes people can really lose themselves in the bargaining to some horrific levels.   Abuse etc.

Huge lesson on what you are willing to bargain for and when just facing the loss is better.   Thepain of staying is worse than leaving.

[Klrskies]

I bargained in the relationship with my ex gf, but didn't come out to well... . my likely PD was like a shrewd business person, never wanting to give anything up. She told me once " no, if I start giving you what you ask for you'll just want more".

My last attempt to bargain with her was the week after we broke up. I called her, she wouldn't answer. She was so mad that i broke up with her... . i think she wanted to be the one to end it. I wrote a text, asking her remember how we began and try to return to that. I told her I still loved and needed her, but only if she could give up some control, and trust me more... . I got a text back about 6 hours later... . " don't waste my time"

Ouch" no hope in that!

I felt that was it. I still had small hopes and dreams that she would change back into the lady I'd met 4 months prior, but I started trying to feel the pain of letting her go and coping with the failed relationship laying in front of me.

Being aware of her having a possible disorder gave me cause to consider what I could have done in a positive way to help the relationship had I known. I felt sad that I may have been able to have made things much easier on both of us had I know... . but I didn't, and I dont think she does either at this time. So my belief is it's better off letting it go. I spent many, many years trying to save a marriage where the other partner didn't think she had any issues... . exhausting. I don't have the energy to do that much work and have no, or little results.

I never knew anything about her being a possible PD till a month after we split, because it was all so intense and unusual when I could stand back and look at it. Then I started looking for reasons for her behavior. So many PD's overlap, it's hard to nail it down. I could look back and play what if, but the truth is I had already decided to leave the relationship because I wasn't getting much out of it, didnt like the way my needs and wants were getting pushed aside, and couldn't find a way to alter it's course. I didn't know anything about a personality disorder being a possibility when I made that choice. When I started learning about pd's , I thought her behavior made sense to me then, that's good info to have, but not for the purpose of demonizing my ex. She's got enough to deal with going forward. I'll deal with my own pain my way. keeping it real... . she would not believe that their would be a possibility that something might be wrong with her at this time. She may down the road... . but not now.

I've tried to push therapy on people before and if they are in denial or not willing to accept and try it is a waste of energy,  time, and money. If she came out and said she wanted to work on the relationship with a professional, I would have been open to trying, but Not now... . she's dating and moved on quickly. Time for me to stay focused me.

I've bargained with god for my marriage... . years later I wished I'd let it go.

[GreenMango]

Sometimes we can bargain with hope.

[Klrskies]

Sometimes we can bargain with hope.

Yes, I see that now, thanks green mango.

Hope is also wishing to control wrather than accepting, yes?

[GreenMango]

The part about accepting instead I definitely noticed that.   I would think Oh things are getting better.   Then get real hopeful thinking it would be okay even though the reality pointed to the contrary. Not really accepting the history or pattern for what it was.

[Klrskies]

When did your hopeful spells end?

[nevaeh]

Sometimes we can bargain with hope.

Very, very true.

Hope is a very powerful thing.  It is natural and "necessary" to have hope to live one's life without being in a toxic relationship.  Hope is what brought me through the past 18 years.  Hope is what is tearing at me to even THINK about giving him another chance.

"If what he says is true (HOPE)... . then things will get better and we will get happy (BARGAINING)."

I am now more hopeful about my future alone than I am about my future with him, yet that bargaining is SO engrained in me now it's really hard to stop doing it and to stop allowing myself to think that there is a chance things will get better.

[GreenMango]

Klrskies,

My hope really started to wane when I started looking at the facts more.  Less waving nostalgic on the good times or a return for those.

I started to see some undeniable things like increased self medicating, extreme reactions... .  It's hard to deny things like this.   Which ironically enough denial is part of grief too.   (I'll dif that thread out next)

One of the sayings here is bpdfamily.com.  It's a hard step.

When did your Hope start to wane?


nevaeh,

Hope is really powerful. You make a really good point about looking forother things to be hopeful about. Maybe having a more realistic hope?

[Klrskies]

Green Mango,

My hope started to diminish the first time I got a communication cut off, about two months into the relationship, about the time we were coming out of the honeymoon phase. Her personality had a noticeable shift and it felt bad to me then. It was an erratic downhill slide after that. I lost hope in steps while we still together. I kept looking for some kind shift to occur, but it never materialized. My hope of it working sunk lower.

After I left her, I had new hope that she would reach out from missing me... . never happened, just a hard cutoff. I was still hopeing for her to realize that perhaps she might have some issues and return to try and talk for another month after the breakup but she had already moved on by then and I had in that time come to realize, largely thru what I learned here, that it's very unlikely for a PD to change, and the results don't fix the core issue, they just may smooth out the bumps. The whole package had turned unattractive to me now. I didn't want/couldn't handle a relationship that required that much effort to try an keep stable. I let go of most of my remaining hope then.

I'd bent over backwards in my marriage to try and hold it together, but it was exhausting, the losses were huge, and I know I could not, and didn't want to do it again. It was a hard reality.

I still have a flicker of hope from time to time, but the more time passes, the the dimmer those flickers get. I'm a good codependent. It'll be awhile before hope is completely vanished.

[Murbay]

My exBPDw is proof that bargaining does not work and only causes further issue in the long term.

A year NC with her and the e-mails being sent through now are pointing out things I tried to bargain 3 years ago. She has held on to them as validation for herself but trying to use them against me now. The things I promised back then to keep the marriage working and to her breaking a promise means you must be punished.

Talked through it with my T because although I can understand that promises you make can be broken because of events outside of your control, such as divorce after the fact. The only time you should be held accountable is when you make a promise and fail to keep because of your own choices. the fact that my exBPDw cannot understand that only enforces how nothing has changed.

What she has succeeded in doing by pointing out what I begged for at the end of the marriage, is just how far I have come since then. Looking at how codependent I was at that point, even I see myself as weak and feeble. If anything I should thank her for being of assistance in my healing, except it's been 12 months NC and I'm not backing down from that 

Bargaining with a pwBPD can be almost impossible because the more you bargain, the more you are viewed as weak and therefore of no use to them. As in my case, it did me a huge favour and I'm so glad she didn't accept. Had I done much more of that, I would have become her father.