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I feel so foolish, and have been out of this insane relationship now for nearly a year, but I feel so shallow, because I don't think I will ever meet anyone as stunningly beautiful and sexy as she is. Granted, I've done tons of learning about BPD, and realize, that's really all she has, and yes it will fade, etc. But as for me, and yes, this taps into my own issues, although I am attractive myself, had other attractive girlfriends before, but nothing like her. I guess I have a lot more work to do on myself, and do not feel like dating, as I know I will compare the outsides too much. I always felt she was too good looking for me, which kept me in an insecure position almost the whole relationship, with the exception on the idealisation phase, which was unlike ANYTHING I ever experienced. And I ran with it. I never felt that good before in my life, it was heaven. But yes, there was a part of me that knew it was too good to be true, and sure enough, after we married, the mind-blowing sex lessened, and all the other typical BPD traits came out. And it took me two years to finally find myself again, which I had clearly lost, and get out. She had someone else lined up, which was devastating. Oddly, I was the most solid, pulled together person she had ever been with. All her other relationships were with serious sick people. She is a chronic alcoholic, and yes, I tried everything I could do to get her the help she 'swore' she wanted, etc. And now she is off with an active heroin addict. I wish I felt bad about it, but honestly, with the sheer hell she put me thru, I am a bit short of compassion for her. Anyway, I needed to get that out, and ask if anyone else has had the beauty, she truly is gorgeous, and sexiness, keep them stuck.

Everything in life comes with a cost... .  

I don't think the cost was ever worth it.

Plus you will never find a normal person that will make you feel like the idealization phase, because they are not mentally ill... .  

So, get some therapy, stop being so shallow and keep searching.  You will eventually find someone with enough inner beauty that combined with her outer beauty and your love it will be enough.

good luck

Agree with hi there - get some therapy and move on.  She will most likely never change and you will find someone else to love as much or more that will love you back in a healthy way.

Not sure if this is helpful or not, but there was a long thread posted on Personal Inventory about another member who felt he had issues with  beauty.

You may find the back and forth helpful:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=190590.0

LnL

I use to think this way until I learned that they were just emotionally injured, abused, and uninhibited, little girls, in adult female bodies, who learned how to act, dress, and use cosmetics, and be naughty, in order to hypnotize, injure, and abuse me  like they were. Pretty ugly stuff inside the fantasy wrap

Great posts,

Beauty and sexiness ect ect.

I went there and actually believed with all my heart I loved this person and in many ways I did. In others I was in love with myself. it was not a healthy love with me forgiving things that never should have been. In the end I question who or what I was in love with ? I learnt my ex's full history and she was not the person I knew. Her actions well prior to the end lining up the replacement was ... .  not a sign of someone who loved you.

Lots of things went on that just shouldn't have and yes whilst I may have convinced myself about the ex or her beauty of ability in bed, in many ways it was a relief from being subjected to torture ... .  or abuse ... .  the makeup sex which strangely I think made it more than it was.

Having come full circle I was in love with her, did love her in a normal adult sense but it was not returned and I could have been an object and eventually was treated like one to be discarded or thrown away. This in itself is not normal.

As to physical beauty, yes it was there and there are many beautiful people on the outside but I was conned ... .  deep in the FOG or whatever to the person who lay within and that was not beauty. Shallow Hal the movie and a beautiful person on the outside became an old decrepit one and vica versa.

Bit deep but they may be nice to look at, their beauty of allure, but taking it home can cause problems. In my case I thought I was rescuing a damsel which turned into a black widow which eats it mate.

I tend to look at people this way as a result. i can admire their beauty on the outside and then look very hard at the inside.

Take care  :)

Man I'm just like you. I have an inferiority complex. I've dated some attractive women but it's like is this for real? If they are messed up, I'd do anything to fix it cause they are so hot and me well, I have low self esteem. Get it?

Rock star sex, well, frankly, it's most likely not the best sex you ever had, but some form of idealization of the sex. I had a lot of sex with my ex. We are talking from get off work until the next morning sex. I confuse sex with love. Maybe you do too?

Dranrab... .  I hate to say it but this is one of the most relevant threads for me in a while.  I can totally relate to all of you on this issue.  In fact, if you reseach my posts from 2010, you'll find me struggling with this exact issue.  And Dranrab, allow me to be an example to you.  I was you back in 2008.  I was free of the crazy one and back on track.

But I first need to back up to 2006.  I was in a dead-end marriage to a wife that had no interest in sex.  In fact, she told me that I waas lucky to get sex once a month... .  one of her friends only has sex twice a year and she has a great marriage.  Anyway, I meet this chick (Let's call her "Looney" that is a daughter-in-law of one of my clients.  I was in awe.  It was only a matter of a few days before I asked Looney to lunch to discuss "business".  Before too long we were in a full on affair.  We would meet at hotels or just have sex in my car.  It was so against my nature. I was active in my church, the PTA president, etc, but apparently that no longer mattered to me because I was banging the hottest chick I've ever met.

As with any affair, but even moreso with a BPD, things became rocky.  We would break up and then get back together.  It truly aged me beyond my years.  The affair was bad enough, but this on-going drama with Looney was almost too much.

Eventually, I filed for divorce from my wife.  At the time she didn't know of the affair.  In the meantime, Looney filed as well.  However, as mentioned, things were rocky with us.  There were times when we had NC; sometimes for many days.  Then, out of the blue she contacts me and says she needs to talk (crying profusely).

She tells me that she went to LA to have an abortion with my baby and didn't want to tell me.  I was floored.  Of course, she poured it on thick and at one point mentioned the whole ordeal cost $1,500.  I shared with her that I was against abortion, I was beyond pissed about not being involved in that decision... .  not even being told... .  but eventually, like a dumbass, I gave her $1,500.  I know... .  but it gets worse, my friend.

One night she's at my apartment and her phone rings at 1am.  She was asleep and I saw her phone said "Taipei".  I wasn't exactly sure what that meant. When she awoke that morning I asked her about it.  She said it was a church family that needed help.  I bought it without question... .  

Fast forward now to exactly one day after my divorce was final.  We had another one of our many arguments and I hadn't seen or heard from her in many days.  Suddenly I get an IM"s from her from LAX that says that she has met someone and she wished me well.  She gave me some scriptural references and that was it.

I was devastated.  I left my wife for this incredibly hot chick and there I was with nothing. I couldn't believe it.  My head was spinning and everything was foggy.  The gravity of my decisions weighed heavily.  I had thought that was the worst day of my life (but that was yet to come).

So... .  somehow I picked myself up and started over again.  I had no interest in going back to my ex-wife, so I ventured off into the dating world.  I had some success but it was nothing compared to Looney and Looney sex.

Anyway, not long later, she emails me from various parts of the country.  Her lover was an international pilot.  He worked for China Airlines based out of Taipei (see above).  He was originally from Australia.  One of the emails she sent me was telling me that she was sitting on a beach in Australia thinking of me.  I didn't respond to any of the emails.

So later she emails me and says that she'd like to see me. Initially I had no interest.  I told her I was so hurt by everything.  She offered her side of the story.  So eventually I caved.  We started seeing each other again.  Not long afterwards, however, the same kind of stuff came back.  The arguments, the periods of NC... .  my trust for her was virtually non-existent.  

Then, she says that she is going to a church retreat and will be gone all weekend.  I told a friend this and he said bull~.  So, sure enough, we stake out her apartment that night.  At 6am the next morning she leaves, but not for the church... .  she heads for the airport.  We follow her and I confront her in the parking lot.  It wasn't pretty.  Unbelievably, she didn't act too upset or surprised to see me.  In fact, the first trhing she said to me was that I lied to her.  I was so pissed.  It was everything I could do to contain myself.  Anyway, I threw her pink suitcase as far as I could and told her to enjoy her life with the pilot.  On the  way from the airport I received many texts from her that I ignored.  I was crying mad.

Anyway, over the next two months she contacted me and said that things were not going well and would like to see me again.  I told her that I wanted nothing to do with her.  Of course, you needn't guess what happened next.  Yes, I took her back.  As you would think, things were tedious, but we still managed to try to carry on a relationship... .  then, again... .  she mysteriously had a family event to go to and had to leave for the weekend.  Again, my friend smelled a rat.  So I went to her apartment, this time in the middle of the day.  I knocked on her door and instead of inviting me in, she met me outside.  That was the only clue I needed.  So, I brushed past her and went through the apartment looking for whomever she was with.  I tore open the shower curtain, looked under the bed... .  looked seemingly everywhere.  It was a nightmare.  Needless to say, I didn't find anyone.  In the meantime, she's calling the cops.  As I left I told her never to contact me again.

The next day she texts me wanting to talk.  I didn't respond.  She called.  No response.  Then later that night the police call and ask me questions.  I knew then that I was in trouble.  She had filed a retraining order.  

At my court date, Looney was there with her pilot, her mother and my ex-wife (Looney had invited her).  At that time, it truly was the lowest point of my life.  The love of my life is clinging deperately to my replacement, my ex wife is there (who later gave me evidence that Looney provided exposing the affair), and I was being slapped with a restraining order.  It could have been even worse, but my attorney plea bargained (since this was my first offense) for anger management classes.

A few days later her pilot decides to call me and put me in my place.  Within a few minutes we begin comparing notes.  He was with the understanding that I was an old boyfriend that Looney had broke up with.  No the case.  As it turned out, as we compared calendars, we determined that she would pick fights with us conveniently so she could spend time with the other.  In fact, the weekend she said she went to LA for the "abortion", was when she was with him.  Wow.  I mean, wow!  How low can one go... .  to tell a guy you aborted his kid... .  take $1,500 from him, and really you just used that as an excuse to cheat on him?

So, again, I am left to start over from the ashes.  This time... .  worse than before... .  not only because of the R/O and anger management classes... .  not only because once again I was betrayed by the hot chick, but this time... .  my ex-wife became involved.  Her knowing of the affair gave her renewed energy to hate me.  Up until then we had been getting along fairly well... .  but not after that, obviously.  Also, it had come to my attention that Looney contacted my employer trying to get me fired.  I work in the securities industry and it is grounds for termination if I have any felonies in my background.  Fortunately, this was not a felony.  But she sure tried to ruin my life, noneltheless.

Looney eventually worked things out with her pilot and married him... .  so end of story, yes?  No.  Sure enough... .  about a year later, she shows up at my apartment, smoking a cigarette.  She never smoked before.  I told her to leave me alone.  Immediately afterward, I contact the cops and told her that she came to see me, so they would know it wasn't me that violated the R/O.  

Anyway, I didn't hear from her until May, 2008. I had already moved on.  I had bought a nice house and was dating again.  My self-confidence and self-esteem had risewn from the depths of Hell and I was feeling good about myself.  My relationship with my son was at an all-time high.  I was coaching all three sports and loving life.  Playing baseball, and enjoying my friends' company.  I was well on my way back to normalcy.

Of course, this story doesn't end here.  What I am not mentioning is that every single chick that I would go out with, would be unfavorabley compared to Looney.  Every time I'd sleep with someone, it would ultimately be compared to Looney.  I became very picky and even more base and shallow than before.  I was primed for what occured next.

Out of the blue, I get a call from private name / private number.  Normally I don't get those calls (especially since they used to be Looney), but this time I did.  It was her, of course.  She immediately said that she only wanted to meet me to give me the $1,500 (for the fake abortion).  In retrospect... .  of all the idiotic, crazyass, stupid things I've done to screw up my life... .  this one moment shines above them all.  I chose to meet her.  She gave me the $1,500 alright.  She looked amazing and I was hooked again.  I guess it didn't matter that she was already involved with another guy ("who helped her get through the painful divorce from the pilot". It wasn't too long after that before we were full on again.  But this time, I felt I needed some guidance.  

So, out of desperation, I contacted my three closest friends and asked them if they would be open to meeting with Looney and hear her case.  They agreed.  Prior to the meeting I shared with them my experience with anger management and the restraining order... .  but they already knew about it.  Anyway, Looney shows up and in a crying, passionate display, shares with the group her love for me and the error in her ways (by the way, that was the last and only time I can recall her being that adamant about being wrong about anything at all).

After her dissertation, and the Q&A session, I asked her to go wait in the car and I would see what my friends had to say.  All three said "run".  They all saw how I had been hurt by this crazy woman and didn't want their friend to get any more damaged from it.  I respectfully listened to their advice and promptly went back to Looney.

Of course, the crazy sex insued and we lived happily ever after, right Dranrab?  

Hardly... .  not long afterwards, the craziness insues and I reach a point where I've had enough.  I recall her bein gin my office and I tell her that I can't tak eit any more.  Immediately she responds that she's going to start dating a guy named David.  Amazing.  Sure enough she does.  That lasts about three weeks and then come the texts and emails.  Yes, I take her back... .  even after she slept with another guy.  This time is wasn't cheating,but it hurt just the same.

So, here comes the clincher... .  less than two months after getting back together with her, I discover that she's given me Herpes.  How did I know?  Immediately, we both got tested.  Her test indicated it was in her system quite some time.  Mine was a new infection.  Of course, she swears that she didn't know she had it.  I didn't believe her.  Again, I was devastated... .  what had I done?  My life was ruined now.  I couldn't go back to the life I had.  I wsa damaged goods.  Who would want me now?

After a few months of wrestling with this, I decided there wasn't any other choice but to marry her.  I felt trapped.  She said yes and we set a date.  Not long afterward, things became unravelled again and I canceled the wedding.  As expected, she flew off the handle.  We broke up.

I started dating a really nice girl... .  smart, CPA, very attractive... .  but now, wha's going through my head is not only Looney, but the fact that I have H.  I was an emotional wreck.  

A few weeks later, I flew to Washington on a trip with my son.  My feelings for Looney were surfacing.  I was texting her, telling her I missed her and wanted to talk about things when I got back.  I told her I was worried that she was with another man.  She assured me that the only man that interested her was Jesus... .  and she was upset that I would even ask her that.

As soon as I get back home, I call her and force her to meet me.  I literally get down on my hands and knees and beg her to marry me.  She says she has to pray about it.  After much prayer and deliberation, she agrees.  I later find out that she started dating a guy and was actively dating him when I was texting her.  Another lie.

So Dranrab... .  as long as this post is, believe me, it could be longer... .  cutting to the chase, since marrying her, I've filed for annulment no less than three times.  Every time I changed my mind and crawled back. Yes, it was ME that crawled.  I lost more and more dignity with each time.  So here I am... .  again a crossroads... .  looking at the mirror.  I know what has to be done... .  soon I will be filing for the last time. It will literally break my heart (hopefully not my wallet... .  we'll see).  And after the dust has settled, yes I'll be the bad guy... .  the guy that ruined her life... .  the guy that promised her the moon and the stars and gave her nothing but criticsm, obsessing about her demeanor, distrust and paranoia.

Dranrab... .  please read this very long post at least twice... .  let it sink in... .  breathe it in and even memorize if you feel so inclined... .  It will be your story if you choose a life with her.  I say this only because you are thinking it is over now.  One year removed is nothing.  Trust me... .  unless either of you have moved a long distance away from each other, she'll be back.  When you least expect it, she'll be back.  And if you think she looked hot before, wait until to see her then!

Here I was married to a drop-dead gorgeous chick that was the sexiest chick I'd ever been with.  This wasn't my first rodeo, but regarding the mind-blowing phyisicality... .  nothing compared.  I was in heaven... .  here is a chick that tried out to be a cheerleader for the Kansas City Chiefs, in awesome shape, awesome in bed, adored me, born-again Christian... .  the list goes on and on.  I mean, who wouldn't want this?  Me... .  that's who.  After all the ~ I've gone through I can honestly say that no chick is worth that.  I don't care how shallow, how sex-addicted a guy can be... .  life is too short to be with a BPD.  I can't make this any more clear.

Thank you Dranrab, and others for reading this incredibly long post.  I'm sure I broke a rule or two, but I thought I would finally get it all out.  So there it is for all to see. The reason why I am Foolish One.  Forgive me for the length and language.  

F1

FoolishOne... .  after reading your brutally honest post I have something for you... .  it sounds like you need it!... .  the man hug emoticon doesn't do my feelings justice so here is a regular one! 

Working through why we accept so much emotional chaos and invalidating experiences... .  in exchange for being able to have a physically attractive partner on our arm helps with disengaging... .  

Perhaps their physical beauty is representing/mirroring something we don't "feel" about ourselves?... .  

FoolishOne   

It's hard to see how we've been duped, isn't it?  And when we actually put it out there in black and white, it leaves us wondering why in the he! we ever put up with their cruelty. Having a fake abortion is just plain cruel, not to mention the other things you mentioned.

It's also clear to see that this is who she is... .  she WILL NOT change. This is her life pattern and it's very unlikely that it will ever be different.  And you can rest assured that she's already working on ruining someone else's life RIGHT NOW (with God's approval too  .)

As we go through the healing process, we reach a point where, while we continue to examine their truckload of offenses, we also start to examine where WE went wrong.

The truth is that you never should have been involved with someone like this from the beginning.  That is MY truth too, so I can relate.  Like you, I was in a state of misery when crazyx came along.  And rather than deal with my own misery in a mature and healthy way, I entered a situation that would create misery that I never even knew was possible.

So for me (and maybe for you too,) the goal is to never again be in a place within myself where I am vulnerable to such destruction. If I had been in a healthier place from the get go... .  I never would have gone down such a hellacious path. 

So now... .  it's time to work on YOU and I applaud you for being here and being motivated to do that.   She will NEVER change, but YOU will. 

turtle

Yes, Dranrab, this part absolutely kills me.

I was always just terribly unsure of where I fell on this whole social status ladder thing.  Some days I could feel pretty good about myself, and other days not so much.  By being the deep, sweet, interesting, creative type - I would manage to periodically garner interest from an attractive girl, and that would make me feel on top of the world.  But then things could fall apart fairly quickly and acquaintances would have no problem saying things like "she was too hot for you, anyway."

Ugh.

Anyway... .  yeah, then my uxBPDw entered the picture.  She was completely insecure about her body, but she was absolutely gorgeous.  Like, perfect 10, unbelievable, overwhelming.  She swore up and down that she was more attracted to me than she'd ever been to anybody, and that I was absolutely gorgeous, and that she'd never felt "just this need to have sex with somebody" like she felt for me.

Throughout our marriage, it was very clear that sex was very difficult for her (she had been abused and molested throughout her young life).  Laying next to her, therefore, was more often painful and hurtful than it was gratifying.  I often felt like I lived with some girl that I had a terrible unrequited crush on.  She swore it wasn't like that, though, and occasionally our moments in bed felt like something otherworldly beautiful and perfect.

I think I came to believe that she could probably get someone more attractive than me if she really tried, but I also basically accepted that she was not "totally out of my league."  I decided it unlikely that people would look at us and ask "what is she doing with him?"

Now that it's all ended, I'm suddenly not so sure.  It kills me.  She was so mean and so awful, and I tried so hard to do everything right.  But she has guys lined up around the block to tell her how beautiful and amazing and perfect she is, and I have no one.  It feels so hurtful and so unfair... .  but it's a result of my choices.

I start trying to assess who I may find next, and it is setting in for me that her level of outer beauty (within a healthy person) is probably well beyond my reach (especially now that I carry the baggage of two kids, a broken home, and a troubled r/s with the ex).  That's haunting.  It's haunting to know that the beautiful body that once lied next to you and swore she'd be there forever is now gone and will never really be replaced.

Is it shallow to look at things that way?  Of course!  But it's also part of being honest with one's self.  I always valued emotional connection over physical beauty, but that feeling that I actually deserved this extraordinary, bewitching, gypsy of a woman is a very difficult thing to suddenly lose.

I should not base my own self-image so much on who my partner is.  I know that now and I am working on it.  Still, though, those memories of her beauty pain me.  Thinking she was always out of my league and the only reason I had her is because she was sick pains me.  Thinking of the tall handsome men that now knock on her door (while I sleep alone) of course hurts me a great deal as well.

I realize now that I only ever had fool's gold.  But I didn't know that.  I know I didn't actually lose something special... .  but it just sure feels like it a lot of the time.

I know it is a cliche but looks are not everything and I rather be happy with a 5 or 6 (that might actually feel like an 8 to me if in love) then be miserable with a 9 or 10.

Heck, I rather be alone and lonely than be with a 9 or 10 that abuses me.

So having a hot partner is fun and all but in the end what does it really matter?

just_me_500 ... .  "fools gold"... .  what an apt description of what we had! (or rather, didn't have)... .   |iiii

Thank you Turtle... .  it felt good to get that story off my chest... .  almost therapeutic.  I hope you're right.  Even now... .  this very moment... .  as I have my finger on the trigger to file the annulment again, I still have doubts and remorse.  I still want to blame myself for my many failures that she has so eloquently provided evidence for me in her most recent email.  It hurts to think that I will look back and cry over something that I could have changed in myself.  What if I were less critical of her?  What if I didn't obsess over every little thing?  What if I were more accepting?  The list goes one.  Somehow, if I had absolution that I can rest in, it will make the medicine go down better.  Her words are so damn convincing, it hurts.

FoolishOne;

That was one of the most didactic personal BPD stories I've read in here.

No, it is actually the most didactic story of all.

You trully deserve to be announced the all-time champion.

Good luck from now on in your life, my friend! 

Wow... .  I figured it would take the cake... .  not exactly happy about being the champion here... .  I'd rather have the least interesting story... .  but the real story for me is how the rest of this book ends... .  right now, I have to get right and get out.  Believe it or not, she is painting me as the btch here... .  my harsh criticisms and overly obsessive nature is being called.  Amongst other many sins I've been accused of... .  including drinking and listening to rock music.

I don't think you should scold yourself for feeling "shallow."  But do consider that your reaction to the "beauty" of others is as much a function of your own psychology as it is of their anatomy.  Personally I feel that most people underestimate the degree to which our minds can intuitively identify and lock onto other minds with corresponding emotional issues.  There is a reason why so many dating people complain of always "meeting the same kind of <fill in the blank>."  I think it is because we are consistently attracted to the same kinds of psychology -- partly as an unconscious effort to resolve our own internal dissonances.

When you choose one person's "beauty" over another person's "beauty", their beauty may actually be a rationalization of something that you aren't able or willing to consciously identify... .  yet.


Perhaps you will "compare the outsides too much," and I would argue that you might do this because it may be too painful to compare other more relevant qualities.  What those issues are, is not for me to say.  You know yourself better than I, I should think.


What you learned was worth its weight in gold.  You learned what it is you are willing to give yourself up for in order to get.  And you learned that nothing is worth losing oneself over... .  maybe.


Then you realize that her choices in partners has less to do with how "solid, pulled together" someone is, and more do do with something else altogether different.


I think we have all been stuck with respect to our BPD relationships.  What we are stuck in, isn't so important as how we get unstuck.  An in my experience, the minute we start learning how to take care of ourselves in ways that we had previously not even been aware of, that's the minutes we start getting unstuck.

Best wishes, Schwing

I hope I'm not interrupting anything here as the lone female posting on this thread. But I've been digging around in the archives and had come across Sexual Addiction: When the Sex is Too Important to Us (https://bpdfamily.com/tools/articles14.htm). Seems helpful, tho admittedly I know very little about this. My own recovery focuses on a slightly different expression of codependence.

Hey livednlearned!

I'm in this thread too.  I think we butted into the boys club. lol

Carry on, boys.  lol.

turtle

I'm not gonna bite on that turtle... .  dammit!... .  this post means I just did!  lol

Ok, cool!  lol

Felt like I had wandered into a man cave for a sec.  :)

lol

funny guy!

Umm... .  we both wandered into the man cave. Guess I didn't notice all the sporting gear and cigars. Wanna meet me in the shoe section, or at the nail salon?

lol.

I'm a card carrying metrosexual... .  can I come shop with you girls and check out hot girls? I have an assortment of manbags for the trip  

This is definite post hijacking so I'll stop now  

One more thing I forgot to mention about "Looney".  She tried to commit suicide while we were in transition from our respective marriages.  She said it was to protect me from her ex-husband who was going to come over and kick my ass.  Who knows... .  but she ended up getting placed in a facility called Two Rivers which is a psychiatric rehab center.  She was there a few days and then they referred her to the Lilac Center, which is a facility specifically for treatement of BPD.  That's one of the 100 reasons why I think she has BPD.  Sorry I left that out of my BPD adventure novel.

F1

Dran,

Thanks for putting it out there.

F1,

Wow, man.  I feel your pain.

There for the grace of God, go I... .  


https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=190590.0

This is definitely the truth.  Honestly, I kind of hate to even mention my ex's "outer beauty" in the way that I have.  It makes me feel shallow and I don't like it.

If a year from now I were with a normal-looking girl that was stable and healthy, and we actually attained a real and fulfilling love together... .  gosh, I'd take that in a heartbeat.  Someone with a less perfect body but who is able to be in a healthy relationship is obviously a big trade up.  It's worth one million times more in every way.  I realize this.

Like I said, even when I "had" her, elements of sex and attraction seemed to generate more struggle and heartache than anything really great.  For the most part, anyway.

I think one of the things that is "haunting" to me about her physical beauty is more just the inequality it creates for us in our divorce.  Like I said, there are dozens of guys that are lining up to be with her.  And they're not just pigs that want to use her - they are nice, sensitive, artistic people that see her as the beautiful girl in their Hollywood-version of love.  They want to hold her, save her, love her, commit to her, and protect her.  They are pretty much just like I was.

It's just hard to not let that bother me.  I am sad.  I am hurting.  I have a story to tell, too... .  but I don't have girls falling all over themselves to make sure I'm okay.  It feels as though she can be sick... .  and she can cheat, lie, abandon, betray, and torture all she wants... .  but in the end she is just "worth more" in this world.

I feel like throughout our whole relationship I tried to view us as "equals".  No matter how hurtful and unfair she was, I kept giving her the benefit of the doubt and convincing myself we were equals in this relationship and her perspectives mattered just as much as mine.  Eventually she finally threw me away like garbage, had a secret romantic involvement with my friend (in my house), threatened to take the kids, and just really snapped.  She completely lost it and did and said horrible things that still barely feel as though they can be real.

And then what's the moral?  What's the lesson?  This feeling that we are not equals, and we never were.  She may be sick, but she's a cute young woman with an awesome body - and that may be worth more than everything inside of me I can ever find.  She can have her loves, and her adventures, and her romantic camping trips with man after man after man that thinks they've found heaven.

I know she's sick, and I know she's miserable inside... .  and I know that if given the choice, I wouldn't really trade all my future happiness in this world for hers.  But gosh... .  she has never needed to face being alone the way that I face it now.  She has never had to go to sleep in a world where nobody wanted to be with her... .  or where nobody cared.

It just makes it harder.  Maybe it shouldn't.  But it does.

Seeker of truth... .  That thread reference was a little weird to say the least... .  I didn't read it all, but seemed like a little hostility emerged there... .  My take is simply this on the BPD and the Beast... .  men love with their eyes and women with their ears... .  unfortunately, women with BPD tend to be above average in looks, so men loving with their eyes will ceratinly be attracted to them... .  who's kidding who... .  and we know BPD's love with their ears moreso than normal women, because they desperately crave affirmation and attention.  That said, everyone is different in our personal choice and taste... .  I just know that I got a Hell of a lesson on the demerits of basing your love live on looks.  Everything comes at a price... .  my pentance for commiting adultery, for shallowness and for base behavior is the story you read... .  I can't and wont' speak for anyone here but myself... .  but my opinion is that if the only thing you are in it for is sex with a hot chick/guy... .  you are going to get what you deserve.

F1

Appreciate your candor F1.  Eye-opening and humbling for me to read.  I sincerely apologize if there was any intimation of hostility or judgement on my part if that's what you are referring to.  Not my intent at all.  If you were referring to some hostility embedded within your thread, my gut response is "who wouldn't". 

Personally, and perhaps similar to Dran, I wonder how far off course my center became, and got hurt, hurt, and more hurt... .  while my heart and love for my wife tends to sweep me off my feet sometimes as if nothing happend... .  ("because you were being stupid" T to me last session).  I know there is much work to do and many rivers cross.  The sooner my focus returns to my center and taking baby steps in rebuilding what I've lost... .  the healthier and more emotionally mature I endeavor to become while addressing the addictive side of my personality and relating to my wife more skillfully -- for her sake and as well as mine.

Truth be told... .  I have yet to take an inventory.  Sounds like the invite is there.  That is why I reposted it.  Self-Inventory.  Sweeping my side of the street.

No... .  total misread Seeker... .  I was referring to the thread... .  it looked like there was some hostility between a couple of posters... .  that's all.

This might be a bit of a twist.  My BPD is overwieght ( a lot).  I am not.  He said I was the sexiest most beautiful woman he has ever been with.  Sometimes he would close his eyes while he was talking to me and he said it was because he had never been so attracted to someone.  He also said with regards to our sexual activities, that no one had ever taken him so far, so fast and so well.  I thought he was a poor sexual partner.  Hmm?

mssomebody... .  it's altogether possible that this is a "guy" thing. Men tend to love with their eyes. From what I can tell, the concensus indicates that a vast majority of BPD women are very attractive. To some degree, that makes sense to me... .  especially if you tack on some form of sexual abuse and/or "daddy issues" early in life. My "Looney" had both.

Hi,

Just wanted to add something. For me yes my partner was pretty but not stunning. She was ultra fit and had lots of plus points.

It wasn't the beauty itself that got me in. She in the initial phases was interested in me and everything about me. From books I read to interests and once she had learnt them is when things changed even more. it was intoxicating this smart beautiful woman so interested in me. It was however like a new toy and this is not being bitter she learnt who I was what made me tick and then it changed, or being honest I was intoxicated with this adulation from an early stage. The sex was just a part of it.

For me it was a missing chink in my personality. Having and now knowing with a label what my BPD mother is and was, I just thought she was difficult or ultra critical and abusive ... .  not BPD. I had a partner who in the honeymoon phase who was the total and complete opposite most of the time. i ignores the explosive rages early on and until the end, thinking or actually wanting to think they would get better with love and stability. Nope.

Anyhow back to sex ... .  having someone praise you for me in very short was something I had not had all my life. I had an ultra critical mother to the point of destructive. For me it was a hole in me ! I let this abusive relationship go on too long and at age 83 she is still doing it and no hope for change. She is mild in the BPD range but just as destructive ... .  

Sex side ... .  one part being in the FOG one part very much Stockholm syndrome and the last ingredient I think at times common is the trained dog. In this I mean the Pavlovian Dog trained when the bell rang it would be fed so it started salivating. For me it was after being abused it went for sometimes only an hour back to the honeymoon phase ... .  but the Pavlovian dog knew but wasn't aware he got a treat for being abused ... .  sex.

Yes sound sick but in the push pull, FOG, abuse, PTSD  and all the rest. This is and was a reality for me. Was I addicted ? Or just hanging out for some of the pain to stop is somewhat besides the point. I think possibly for some others if you were doing it ... .  it was stopping the abuse.

Anyhow either way I look at it as some weird form of torture. I remember walking down the street with the ex and thinking this why I was putting up with it after she had said something totally awful. I even was asking myself at times after the initial phase what she really liked about me if anything. After studying me for about 6 months and learning my ins and outs, the toy had lost its shine to some extent. Some things I allowed to happen and just should have walked. Her view when she wanted something or me to do something at times was worse than any abuse I have heard. And she loved me ?

But on the beauty and sex side, I very much look at it as something for what it was well out of things. It was a tool for her, something she enjoyed as well ... .  and honestly I could have been any man or even object for her vs the person I am. But in the end I was a trained Dog and a reason why the recycles kept happening when someone like this is throwing themselves at you to make up ... .  hard to say no ... .  until thankfully I did.

Sorry for the ramble ... .  but beauty vs sex vs Pavlovian dog

At least for me

take care   

So, let this lady add a twist to this thread.

My exBPD has accused me of all the things that someone like Looney has done.  And, of course, I haven't.

I had spent 2 and half years trying to Defend myself against all those outrageous accusations.

At the same time... .  I really don't believe it was projection.

He MAY have cheated once or twice in the beginning... .  but his paranoia about disease makes me wonder if he really would be so casual.  And once things came very sensual with us with experiences he never had before... .  he was the one who was "hooked".  He wouldn't leave my side.  I can account for almost every minute where he was since being with me.  He LITERALLY did not let me out of his sight.  And when he had to cuz I had to work, it was constant calls, texts, coming over. He almost killed my spirit for lack of me having any time alone for self.

And the only reason he went for me to begin with was that he knew I had been celibate for a very long time (almost a decade!) before he ran into me.  That was his attraction.  I was "like a virgin" at 48!  I was clean and with his OCD issues about germs etc... .  I was perfect.

Sexually... .  yeah... .  it was incredible, I mean hell, with his hypersexuality, we had LOTS of practice at how to best please each other and I recycled back soo many times just to have that "one more time".

But then... .  there were many times, it was almost Rape.  It was twisted.  I learned to sometimes have to go to

"my private beach"... .  visualizing blue waters and white sand, just to escape what was happening.

SICK.

And now... .  after everything else... .  I have finally gotten "over" the sex (well, honestly, I still kinda pine about it... .  but, I just know I CANNOT and having had more than one exceptionally good lover... .  I know that good loving... .  it comes around in life more often than we expect)

But He still hasn't gotten "over the sex".

There was no one "lined up" for either of us... .  I was the one to "break up" and he is the one who "can't understand why I would throw this away".  He is PISSED that he's gonna have to find someone else.  Since I have been trying No Contact... .  he has come over uninvited to my workplace, my home and is always begging, rubbing on me and crying for release.

And when I stick to my guns and ":)ENY" him... .  he get's furious.  At first, I would give in cuz I was afraid of him coming violent... .  but thankfully, lately, I have either been able to trick him and actually have to lock him out of wherever I am, threaten to call police or my kids have been around.

For the past half a year? he sits there in his home and seethes and spits insults and accusations thru voicemails, texts and emails because I have "cruelly make him suffer, running him dry".  I'm the heartless, cold bi***, cu**, wh*** and the only reason I am not sexing with him, according to him, is because I am screwing the rest of the island, all his friends, he can "hear me screaming."

I know I am not unattractive to other DECENT men.  I had "closed my eyes and threw off the leave me alone vibe" while with him... .  all in an effort to Prove my loyalty to him as he continually accused me of infidelities.

Frankly, even still, I have no desire to have sex with anyone but him... .  tho I am learning to let that go.

It can never happen again. 

I have tried to explain, again and again... .  that it's his disrespect for me that I am having to leave---not that I have others lined up, which is what he thinks.  I had begged for respect, for the opportunity to defend my integrity and honor (he says he "hears" about all my infidelities, but after a year, admitted that he only "hears the neighbors"... .  the voices in the wind, which is why he would never give me a name to any one person who was "saying these horrible things" about me so that I could go defend myself, since he wouldn't)  How he could believe "the voices" versus a live being that he supposedly loved... .  I have no clue except it's mental illness.

It's insanity.

And what's even more insane... .  if I could... .  I'd lay down with him again---if only we could without his madness.

So then... .  all this makes me wonder, like others here have wondered... .  am I the crazy one?

No.  I'm not.  I don't lie, I don't gaslight, I deal with reality, I don't blame everything on everyone, I listen, have empathy and don't continually disregard, minimize or dismiss other's feelings, thoughts or opinions.

But did I "pick up" something twisted?

Thanks for all the responses. I am seeing a T, and it is helping a great deal. The destruction to my self confidence this relationship caused in unbelievable.

I got an email from my replacement, telling me how great their sex is, and how I could never turn her on, etc, etc. it was meant to hurt me I know. I also know he is strung out on heroin, so I don't know the point of his email other than to hurt me and maybe try and build himself up. I replied that she will be pushing you away soon as she did with me, and it will be hell, and 'have fun'... .  but it still hurt, and that's the stuff I need to work on for myself. Why would I let an email from a junkie bother me?

The hell of the violent rages, screaming, blaming for EVERYTHING, constant complaining of every ailment under the sun, on and on, I never will let myself go thru again. I will see red flags, when they are pink!

She knows she has BPD, uses it as an excuse for her behavior, but is so textbook, it's not even funny. Plus she is a chronic binge alcoholic, so the combo is deadly.

The mess they leave us as, is mind boggling. If I knew then what I do know, I'd have run like hell when I met her.

The divorce was nasty, but she had gotten herself in so many predicaments, arrests, dui's, etc, that luckily she didn't have a chance to hurt me financially. Plus I had a prenup, thank God!

And as for the sex, yes, in the beginning, when she was trying to 'hook' me, it was wild. It was incredible, but at the same time, I even knew back then that there was something too good to be true abou it. And sure enough I was right, cause it started drying up right after we got married.

This I do know, and as my T, who I met thru her, so he knows ALL about her says, she will do this to everyone else she ends up with. She wears a mask, and that is all it is. I used to say to her, if she spent as much time on her insides as she did on her outsides (hours getting ready, hair, makeup, etc) she'd be healthy... .  

The more time goes on, I am more and more grateful that I got out of it when I did. Only lost 3 years, could've been a lot more, but once she knew I had her number, she lined up the first replacement she could find. And now she's with an addict, who has numerous arrest warrants out for him, and they can't even afford phones. She thru away someone who truly loved her. I spent thousands on different treatment facilities on her, was always supportive of her getting the help she herself said she needed, but she just couldn't do it. And that is sad, because she will just keep repeating her pattern in life. While I am grateful I have the chance to learn from this, and never let myself be used like that again.

So it sounds like you won't let her recycle you, but what about your original post? It sounded like you have no hope of finding someone who can make you feel that way again.

One of the things I have fought throughout my healing is the whole idea that nons have an equally hard time being emotionally available as their pwBPD.

Is that something you might be struggling with?

Hey Livednlearned... .  I think initially that may be something that we all struggle / struggled with.  I know that has been one of the bungee cords that's kept me hanging thus far.  The hope of finding someone that can make me feel the positives seem bleak at times... .  the hope of finding someone that can make me feel the negatives seem highly likely.

The healing has to come before the peceptions can change.

F1

F1, that was my fear too. I'm not totally over that fear, but so far things are looking promising. I started dating again after 2 years of healing from N/BPDxh. I'm 2 months into a new r/s and sex is great, except I keep noticing baggage in my head that is leftover from N/BPDx.

So I'm having 10/10 sex with this new guy, except I dated a guy before N/BPDx who was a 12/10. Sorry to make it sound so quantitative  lol

I've been trying to figure out how to make 12/10 happen again with this new guy who seems totally into having 12/10 sex, except I have this junk in my head from N/BPDxh (the more open I was about what I liked and the more I enjoyed sex, the more he would get jealous and accuse me of being a wh@r#).

N/BPDxh never got the memo that pwBPD are supposed to be amazing in bed. I totally fell into this thread out of sheer curiosity.

New guy is super attentive and very passionate, one of the best lovers I've had, but I can't communicate to him about what I like and want because I feel inhibited by things N/BPDx used to do and say, and I'm having a hard time telling the new guy what's happening because I'm worried it will make it worse.

It's like all the healing I've done, intense therapy, volumes of reading, personal inventory, putting the pieces back together again -- all of that is getting truly tested through physical intimacy. The one thing that's keeping me going is knowing that I once had mind-blowing sex with someone before N/BPDxh.

So I'm different than others here who are posting about fantastic BPD sex, but it seems like it's sorta similar, like you said F1. That the healing has to happen so our perceptions can change. And then when our perceptions change, we can communicate what we want (which takes a lot of emotional trust) and make it happen with healthy partners.

Fingers crossed.

Ditto to the other guys finding the incredible outer beauty of their ex.  Mine was a jr & former competitor in the ole pageant circuit, representing her state.  She was actually more than humble abt this, didnt even mention it for a long time & really hated compliments, me wanting to include her pictures (or with us together) on my pages , etc.  I was "allowed" only one certain pic to show family or friends.  Her occupation is in the performing arts and as soon as shes off the stage, shes done.  Wants no compliments or to be reminded how talented she is.  In fact, she usually got quite defensive whenever i said she was beautiful.  No, this was not a case of "just fishing for more".  She really pulled in & got nervous hearing it from anyone.

Strange paradox.  Im sure its no diff from an anorexic who looks in the mirror and still sees "fat".  Its the self image, their perception of themselves.  God knows what kind of "awful" things she "saw" in this distorted thinking.  When i can tell she cant even see herself correctly, how can i expect her to see me fairly either?  Everything must be filtered so differently in their "eyes".

I agree 110% with the one who reminded us "everything comes with a cost".  Ive only found little bits referring to "the look/beauty" of BPD females.  Also noted is the "blank/distant empty stare" during the swings.  My girls eyes were penetrating, deep, intense but with hardly any "life", intelligent.  I was always intrigued even in photos this came across.

Yes, one of the hardest things of letting go for me/detaching is the strong physical attraction.  Another is the challenge of it all.  She persued me in the beginning so i never gave chase until after i "found out" id been dumped.  My battles been bloody & still is (if any have read my few posts abt this agonizing smear campaign). 

I wish more women would weigh in to discuss if they found their BPD SOs exceptionally attractive on the outside & if that plays any part in them having a harder time letting go?  Or is it more since men are more visual & place more emphasis on sex?  Someone made the point abt confusing "love" for sex.  I dont think this applies to me as much, but i still dont believe ive ever seen a woman who compares on the level with my ex.  And we were good friends first & i always felt this way. 

P.S. By all means, our sex was always outstanding & i relate to the comment about the intense drama of makeup sex too.  Another reason if she ever decides im not the devil & tried to reengage me, id still be weak for that fix. 

She had several times mentioned the problem with men always wanting her. She dressed down so as to not look too sexy. But it didn't matter. If she wore old clothes and clunky shoes with hair uncombed... .  she was still beautiful. She would say "the problem is that I am too beautiful". Even though she was not happy with her body, she would admire herself in the mirror. It was actually one of the more balanced aspects of her personality.

Livednlearned... .  thank you for providing me (and maybe the rest of the thread-readers) some hope.  I think a good thread would be "Sex after BPD?"  I certainly would read it.

Anyway, success stories are what I need to hear... .  kinda seems like I'm a child and the grown ups are telling me stories of what it's going to be like when I grow up.  It's facinating but just hard to comprehend right at the moment.

Yes, the sex with Looney was outstanding and continued to be so right up until the end.  It didn't taper off like a lot of marriages do.  She would do me whenever I wanted to... .  and alot of times she would initiate... .  I always thought that to be awesom.  Oftentimes, right before we'd have sex, I'd tell myself justs how lucky I was to be with this hot chick.  And then... .  not terribly long afterwards, those thoughts of good fortune turned to remorse, frustration, hopelessness and sadness.

Sounds like I want it all... .  I want a hot chick that loves me unconditionally (and for the right reasons), that loves sex and has her head on straight... .  is that too much to ask?

F1

If you can honestly say that you are an emotionally healthy guy who wants an emotionally healthy relationship, then she is out there looking for you. You'll find her. The looks, the sex, the love.

But if you're looking for a "hot chick" that loves sex -- you're going to find a lot more women who are crazy, is my guess. Because healthy women aren't attracted to a guy who loves hot chicks that love sex. Even if she is a hot chick who loves sex.

I've never had to pursue men. I know I get treated different because of the way I look, and if that sounds narcissistic, I can tell you that having your N/BPD husband scream that you're nothing but a f@*k!ng trophy really makes good looks meaningless. If you feel like sh!t on the inside, you might as well have three heads. Lots of people on the boards will encourage you to not be fixated on the outward beauty, and my guess is that for those of you coming down off your stunning BPD partners, that isn't an easy pill to swallow. But, well, for what it's worth, they're right  :)  I think the way forward for guys dealing with the post-BPD amazing-sex free fall is to focus on what you have to offer a beautiful, healthy woman, and then be prepared to grow into the mind-blowing sex that you create together.

As many of the guys here have said, a stunningly beautiful woman can be with any man. But a stunningly beautiful woman who is healthy cannot be with just any man. She is not going to date you if you're only into her for the mind-blowing sex and her beauty. The empty beauties that do date you will quickly move on and replace you because there are thousands of emotionally shallow men she can swap you out with. That kind of beautiful, sexy and sexual woman isn't real picky.

That's the sadness that I hear from men in these threads (this topic surfaces here rather reliably) who are desperate to find a woman who can compare to their BPD girlfriends or wives. You have to be real if you want the real deal going forward. You have to give something real in return for something real.

I'm sort of at that point in my own dating trajectory. Many thousands of dollars and hours of therapy later, I ended up attracting one of the most stable, steady, kind, thoughtful guys I've ever dated. My hope (double triple fingers crossed) is that I'm showing up enough to attract a guy who shows up too. I got the wacky idealization stuff worked out, so there has been none of that aphrodisiac addiction bs that has been in all my past r/s. Had no idea what sex would be like with this new guy, but there were all kinds of signs that he was going to be attentive, thoughtful, and kind, which it turns out is true. Now we're turning the corner into real passion and it's starting to feel like sky's the limit, as long as I can trust and communicate and work through some of this physical intimacy baggage from N/BPDx. And the surprising thing is how safe it all feels, which is so different it took me a while to realize that's what it was -- safety.

Loved your whole post livednlearned... .  but like you... .  I know these things above to be true!  And I can say without exception that any guy that was looking for hot sex from me at the get go was NOT safe.


turtle

Livednlearned... .  excellent observation and valid points all around.  I think what a lot of men are lamenting about the sex because it is how we are wired.  What separates the Neanderthals from the Homeosapiens is character.  In time, I am convinced I'll come to my senses and find "find my center".  But right now I'm a little boy tht got his favorite toy taken away from him.  I want to cry about it for awhile... .  but eventually, I'll get over it... .  That may be way too simplistic, but it works for me for now.

Do I plan to go out there and try to bang any and every "hot chick" I can?  I hope not.  My hope is that I can heal, get real with myself, and eventually become a desirable guy that a chick I find attractive on many levels will want to be with me long term.

My impatience is part of the frustration.  It will also be the prime suspect if I attmept to reconcile.  Holding myself at bay is 90% of the battle... .  the rest is simply follow through.

Anyway, so far so good... .  thanks again for taking the time to share your success story... .  it is truly refreshing!

F1