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My divorce master with ndBPD (w/NPD traits)H is scheduled for next Friday.  L and I are still waiting for a counterproposal from H and his L in order to try to settle prior to the hearing.  However, I am beginning to think it is not coming, or if it comes it will be too ridiculous and/or too late.  The divorce master hearing is only to decide the divorce, not custody.  I filed in Nov., 2011, and H has done everything to resist and avoid, which is why I filed for fault and at fault divorce.  Because since he is absolutely against the divorce, if the judge finds him at fault next Fri, he will grant the divorce.  J has already told Ls at pretrial conferences that he has plenty for indignities to grant the divorce, but that he is unsure of the date of separation.  My L is pushing for the date of filing, but H is pushing for much later, saying that we were "living as a couple".  Well, he is right, we were.  But that is because he refused to move out of the house (purchased solely by me prior to the date of marriage), and because so did I (because I make all of the payments, he has no job, etc) and also because we continued to do things as a family, which I did for the sake of the kids, S7 and D2, to try to maintain as much "normalcy" as possible.  Yeah, you're right, there ain't much of that in our house... .  lol

I have no REAL evidence against H.  I have months of documentation (hand written).  He actually came across one of my notebooks containing a few months worth and stole it from me, but I tried to recount at least some of that.  It's basically all going to be word of mouth.  I am saying he drinks too much (again, I have no actual proof, and can only say what I've witnessed), is verbally/emotionally abusive, has anger control problems, and then there was some weird sexual stuff, too.  You could look at some of my older posts, but basically I got really confused about his sexual desires/orientation, and also did not feel like there was any true intimacy in our r/s.  I had a bunch of documentation including posts he placed on Craig's list saying he was bisexual and interested in male to male things.  He is very angry that I would bring up anything in court and he uses the defense that I was involved.  I was, to some extent.  ie, I knew about some of the CL posts, because he talked about maybe trying to have a 3some with another man, and I always told him I just wanted him, but if he really wanted, I would consider, but that it made me really nervous.  One time we did a short web cam thing with a guy.  I was trying to go along and see if I could make whatever he was interested in, work... .  ie, accept him for who he was.  I am bringing this all up, because he keeps "threatening" me that he hopes I bring that up in court, because he "found more stuff" and so on and so forth.  He wants to expose things like that I had a 3some like 8 years ago when I was single and that I once contracted a treatable STD, to try to portray a bad character, just defame me or whatever.  Those things don't really bother me.  I don't think they are at all related to our divorce case, nor necessarily immoral.  They were bad decisions, just like marrying him.  So should I avoid bringing this stuff up, or should I just let it all fly?  He threatens showing a pic (of me) from the webcam thing, also to say "See what kind of person she is?"  Well, it was all his idea, and he was right there, engaging in and encouraging all of this.

He has no job, and he shouts at me on a daily basis in front of the kids.  He is constantly talking about the divorce and how it's all my fault and saying things like "You are scum,  you are low-life, you're an a-hole, you're the one destroying our family, you're destroying your daughter, your taking your daughter's father away from her, you did all of this, you're a two-bit ho, you're a liar", etc etc etc right in front of the kids.

It is truly, truly, awful, and on top of it, I have gotten into a terrible rut of sleeping on the floor with D2 (lay down with her and then fall asleep), soothing her multiple awakenings in the middle of the night, and now even taking her into bed with me.  I aim to try to reverse this all this weekend.  I actually don't mind her sleeping near me per se, it has just become so demanding, and I have no time to do anything, because if I am missing, she is upset, and I would normally try to do things after she is asleep.  That and I have been so tired.

Please help me with moral support, advice, and suggestions!

Time is limited, so I'll just post one reassuring line of thought.  Whether the court would pay attention to any nonthreatening or nonabusive adult behaviors is questionable, and certainly not something from years ago that is not an ongoing pattern of behavior.

In my case, I was trying to describe my ex ranting and raging at me in the car, pulling my hair, kicking me and the court stopped me from going back farther than 6 months, they considered anything older as 'stale' though I believe older incidents could be used to establish patterns of behavior.

So the embarassing events of years past, will be largely ignored, or ought to be.  Yes, in the old days, decades ago, threats to reveal past affairs and risque behaviors were commonly used for leverage but those days are long gone.  Today it's largely "ho-hum, no big deal, keep moving along folks".  If anything you can simply state they were at ex's urging and toss it back at him as the instigator, but likely you won't even have to do that.

Remember to see it as largely separate adult behaviors versus parenting behaviors.  You may have to remind the court of that obvious distinction, but I doubt it.  This is mostly him trying to pressure, intimidate and embarass you in order to chip away at your resolve and your confidence to move forward.

Hi nowheretogo,

I have no experience with a divorce master, but I have quite a bit of experience having my life derailed by a person with BPD/NPD.  Others here can probably give you specific and sound advice about the hearing.

As a moral support suggestion, I think there are some things you can do to strengthen yourself. I remember your earliest posts here.  You mentioned then that you are a non-confrontational person (as many of us nons are), and that while you were already at the end of your rope with the situation, you were finding it nearly impossible to find your way to a solution. I think it would help you and give you some strength before the hearing to reread your earlier posts here and remind yourself of just how awful some of the things that have happened are. Back then, his continually bringing up to you and to your son that your son is bi-racial was completely inappropriate. Recall the incident where he hurt your son trying to "discipline" him.  Remember the specifics of his Craigslist activity and how upset and demoralized you were when you read the posts.  Especially remember any inappropriate behavior directed at or in the presence of the children. Whatever past indiscretions he may threaten you with (this is an example of how Fear can be used to keep you walking on eggshells), if what you need to do in this hearing is to make them understand the situation, then hold your head high and honestly recount the details of what this guy has put you through. Be careful not to be too nice or try to be too fair. You are a young woman with a bright future, and you and your children deserve a much happier life than you've had so far.  I'll be very happy when we can all celebrate your new beginning, and I'll be thinking of you and cheering for you Friday. I'm sure lots of people here will be.  All the best to you.   

Who is going to look worse if he brings this stuff up in court?  He will!  He's just trying to bully and frighten you.  You were a young wife who gave into his coercion.  Just explain it if it comes up in court, but I doubt it will.  When you show a pattern of his behavior, the court will see the context for how this could happen.

Any luck getting him to move out?  Psych evals?  How horrible to live with him.  :)o you have a T. who could write a report about how this is effecting you?  Keep a journal every day.

Hugs going out to you.

Stuckinbetween

I would not worry too much about him bringing "morals" into it. Stick to the facts, you do not intend to remain married to someone who is not truthful, verbally abusive and consumes alcohol on a daily basis. This is a short term marriage and that in your opinion he views you as his meal ticket and that is his primary motivation. How does he intend to prove that you still live as man and wife? Whip out time/date stamped pics of you two having sex? Simply state that you do not see your relationship as a marriage and that he needs to make alternate plans for his life.


Have you considered recording some of his daily rantings? The master may consider those to be interesting.

 

Then it sounds like you are likely to be granted the divorce, is that right?


 

Is the judge depending on you to produce evidence in order to grant the divorce?

My opinion? I think you are very, very, very tired. It is so difficult leaving these people, not to mention how difficult it is to be married to them. Difficult means that you don't sleep well, you don't think well, everything feels hard. You have a demanding job, a young child, and a very disordered ex. Hard hard hard. So it's understandable that your ex is able to get to you like this -- he's able to exploit your weakest points, the vulnerabilities about you as a moral person. My ex did the same thing. It is very uncomfortable to tell near strangers that you contemplated 3-way sex, or that you may have contracted an STD. But the truth is, no one in the room wants to hear it, and very likely, no one will. If it does come up -- our N/BPDs are good at what they do, after all -- you soldier through it, knowing that it makes him look nasty.

Like FD, stuckinbetween, and hadenoughtoo wrote -- stick to the facts that the court cares about. Excessive alcohol consumption is not a good home environment for a child. The conflict level is excessive and not healthy for the children. You and your ex are so incompatible that it is not good for the kids that you remain living under the same roof. Practice 4 or 5 sentences like that: Something excessive that he does, the untenable environment it creates, the effect on the kids. Over and over. You don't need to explain yourself to anyone -- and no one expects you to.

It's hard to get him out of your head when you're so emotionally, physically, psychologically, and spiritually tired. He is wearing you down so he can wear you down more.

Everyone, thank you.  Everything feels like it is falling apart at the seams... .  My S7 "hates me", D2 is wining and crying continuously and hardly sleeping, and H continues daily rages and other crap.  Distortion campaigns against me with the kids are probably working on S7 to some extent.  With D2, I think he is only managing to alienate himself from her with his behavior.

This weekend he had the audacity to ask me to take him for all you can eat seafood, or to buy him a big lobster, raged at me, but also told me that I am the love of his life and queen of his heart and that's not going to change... .  omg... .  this disorder is soo ridiculous! 

He now claims that he has hired "a professional" for $90 to come to the house to examine the situations with the kids, basically so that he can have someone say that he is right, and I am wrong.  That D2 clings to me because I have always given her everything she has wanted and responded everytime she cries, and that it's not normal for my S7 to not want to go play by  himself outside or in his room but to rather be around me and/or H when he is home from school, etc.  He thinks the kids are abnormal and have huge problems, and he is constantly saying this, and S7 is starting to believe it.  He said this "pro" may come when I am not there... .  well, what kind of an eval is that? For someone to observe H and D2, hear H's stories, and nothing else? He is so convinced that I need such big help.  I know and realize that my parenting has some flaws, and I know what they are and want to fix them, but I actually feel like H's presence in the house is a major obstacle for me trying to achieve these ends.

He has not made an offer for settlement that I know about.

I am meeting with L tomorrow am, followed by T, to prepare for Friday.

I can't believe I may still have to live with him for still more than a month longer! 

Even one recording of this daily verbal abuse would be useful. 

I think he is desperate and throwing out multiple "threats" hoping something will stop the process.  Have your attorney run you through how the process will likely work on Friday will be helpful.  Ask if ancient history brought up what the attorney will do to if it happens can be reassuring.  As to his $90 "professional" sounds like something he just made up.  I would think if there was any validity to a professional coming in it would be in the hundreds of dollars. 

You are a strong woman to be standing up to your current situation and once he is out of the house, you will be on your way to a wonderful future!

I have been told by L that recordings are illegal... .  even if I tell him, if he does not consent to it... .  

there may be some recordings, like home videos, but I don't know how much good they are

so I keep hand documenting everything (well a lot of, because it gets exhausting) that he says. 

It is so funny to hear him saying things like,

-I've asked you to go get help (I see a therapist, he doesn't)

-It's your disease, not mine!

-I know at least 20 people who have spent enough time around you to know that you're the crazy one, not me!

And, my favorite,

-I KNOW I'M not the issue!  YOU ARE!

oh, and also... .  

-One day your eyes will be opened, but it will be too late.

-You are really going to regret this!  You're going to realize, "Maybe I didn't have it so bad."

LOLOLOL

Once the kids are out of the conflict, they will adapt. My son was falling apart at the seams -- nearly brought me to my knees with grief I was so worried about him.

He was 7 and 8 when things were so bad, and I didn't feel as though I had any hope of turning it around.

But I did. You will too -- your kids will get through this when you have some distance from him. They're acting out the emotional tension in your house, and honestly, I know of no one who can be an effective parent when the other one is spewing conflict and abuse at everyone.

Hang in there.



LnL

Thanks, LnL... .  

I am hanging in.  Decided to let the sleeping issues with D2 not be a huge problem for me now, ie, not worry about solving them until the dust has settled down.  She is so unsettled and I think it is some regression, so I think she needs me to comfort her at night for now.

I met with L this morning.  H made a proposal to settle for 65K and a bunch of items from the house that he can sell for cash and 90 more days of living in the house because he can't find a job.  90 days!  That's like a death sentence for me lol.

We countered with 50K, all the stuff he asked for, and 30 days... .  

He will probably take the evening to explode at me and try to intimidate me some more before deciding how he will handle this tomorrow.  I hope it doesn't backfire and he reacts emotionally with, "Fine, let's just go to court on Friday!", but it might.

If we can settle, we need to have everything signed and completed before the 1 pm divorce master hearing scheduled for Fri... .  

Please keep me and the children in your thoughts and prayers for the next few days

He should be able to afford a hotel room and a storage unit with 50k, 30 days is very generous considering that you filed for divorce over a year ago.

Please tell me that your attorney addresses his behavior during the 30 day period in this offer? If it's not addressed your STBX will continue his current campaign of terror, trust me. My ex continued his for some time even after he moved out and the divorce was final. It took at least two years for him to stop trying to treat me as if I was still his indentured servant.

Also be prepared for him to pull some last minute stunt like not showing up Friday in an effort to delay further.

Good points, hadenough.  He countered back again yesterday afternoon with 60K and 45 days. Oh, and he threw in that he wants an agreement for shared (50/50) custody after the divorce(NO WAY!) Told me at home that he won't settle for less than 60, and I can call his bluff if I want.  We are going to counter again today, not 100% sure with what, maybe 55K, and I'm thinking about maybe asking for a moving out "no later than" date (April 15th?).  I was thinking offering him the cash, only when he moves out, to provide incentive to (maybe) get out sooner.  What do you think?  You are right, the behavior needs to be addressed, too. 

Strangely, he was like a different person last night.  There was an eerie calm in the house.  Relief?  The professional that he hired to hear about the child care came, and he said to me that he has to apologize, that he's been wrong about a lot of the things and that I have been right about a  lot, and also wrong about some.  He even tried some new (for him) parenting techniques last night (talking and explaining rather than shouting/intimidating/threatening). He also said that the pro said daycare is old fashioned, daycare should not be disciplining the kids (?), and kids shouldn't be in daycare (I'm sure he will present this as evidence when we have our custody suit).  He also said he has stopped drinking beer for the last three days "not becuase of the hearing on Fri, but because it is bloating him and he is getting too much of a beer gut."  Who is this man? I would like to believe that he is going to change, but I know better.

Why do you have to counter? Why not say "This is the amount agreed to, no more." Call his bluff. Or show him that the negotiations are getting much worse for him, while adding in something that solves the problem of him not leaving. For example, offer him 50K and you will pay hotel for 30 days, but he needs to move out in 10 days. If he doesn't move out in 10 days, he can pay his own hotel out of the 50K. You need to let him negotiate with himself. Right now, it's like your offers are almost predictable, and he is calling the shots.

Your L is not fighting hard enough for you, imo.

He is not going to change. And if he is, let him go off and change for 5 years and then present the results to you.

Well, I guess you're right.  I guess my L has sort of adopted the strategy of better moving forward than not moving at all, which is, letting him manipulate and control the outcome to some extent.  We did agree to 60K and move out by April 15th (payable when he moves out).  We will meet at the judges office at the time of the scheduled divorce master hearing on Fri. to finalize, in case if he decides to back out of the settlement, we can go forward with the hearing then.  I guess I am just too eager to get rid of him, just as I was always to eager to have him stop hounding me to buy this or that or do this or that for him, and gave in.  The good news is, I should be divorced by next week!  Please keep your fingers crossed and pray for me and the kids.  Now I need strategies on how to proceed/what to do until he does move out.  Advice?

You can knock me over with a feather, I was convinced the "child pro" was a bluff.  Your attorney needs to ask his L for a copy of her report. 

No more discussion of the divorce in front of the kids.

No more talk about property that is settled.

Daycare stays in place.

Have your L set time on the 15th he has to out by in the agreement: for example, by 1pm. 

I hope he spends the 45 days looking for an apartment, a job and packing up his stuff.  Praying that Friday goes well for you.

My L was very reasonable in the beginning too -- sometimes we have to start off looking fair otherwise we look like the disordered spouses. I understand! It's a lengthy, expensive, head banging experience. I just wish we could relieve some of your anguish, but of course, that's just a codependent's pipe dream  :)

Good suggestions from catnap. Be prepared to change the locks on the 15th so he doesn't continue to hang around.

Well, I guess it's the beginning of the end!  We met today, and actually managed to sign a Marital Settlement Agreement.  I have to pay him 65K, he has to be out by April 15th, and I have to give him 10K of the 65 by 7 days.

He was crazy last night, asking for the additional 5K to make it 65 from 60, and then revoking, saying he loved me, and then going back to it again when I again stated that I wasn't changing my mind (he was trying to beg me back in again).

I am scared to go home again, but I hope he is withdrawn rather than raging.  I can hope... .  but I'm sure there is going to be lots of angry yelling over the weekend. 

Bittersweet, for now, until he is out, and we still have the whole custody suit ahead... .  

Can you have trusted friends or family call you a couple times during the evenings so you don't feel so alone and targeted?  Maybe set up a few code words so they know to come over ASAP, just in case?

I hope the weekend goes ok!

It does seem like H just got what he wanted -- $65K and he stays in the house for quite a long time. The financial stuff is (usually) a bit more straightforward than custody.

Do you feel like your L did a good job with the MSA? Is there any part of you that thinks it might be better if you found a new L? If you're like a lot of us, we don't like conflict, and switching Ls might trigger some of that kind of thinking. But one thing I'll say about my L -- she advocated for me like I was one of her own, and it has made a huge difference. You don't want someone who wheels and deals to be helping you with custody. You want someone who will really fight for you, and keep you from sabotaging what's best for you and your kids.

I hope your weekend is not as bad as predicted. Glad something got resolved today, I agree that you may need a more aggressive attorney for the custody portion. I think your STBXH wore your attorney down.

Well, it's still crazy as ever.  Raging episodes Fri night and late night/early am Sat, which true to form turned back into "I love you" and it doesn't have to be this way and let's go spend the night in a hotel as a family and etc... .  so,  yes, we're divorced, but as I feared, nothing has changed.  I did call my attorney Fri. night and leave a message saying I was being harrassed.

He is stuck on trying to buy a house with the $65K instead of getting a job and renting a place for a year or two, while being wise with the money in order to plan to buy a home in the future.

I want to write so much... .  but it all boils down to he is STILL trying to bargain with me, get me to change my mind, whatever.  I need the separation SO BADLY!

OK, nobody replied to my last post, and it is my nature/personality to wonder if everyone just gave up on me.  I don't think that is probably the case, but you know, we all come here for support.   

Am I correct to say that I should be present for the time when H decides to sell the stuff that he was awarded in the settlement agreement to try to prevent him from selling more than that?  And how do I effectively prevent that from happening even while being there?

I am waiting for the decree to come out, hopefully this week.  I am then planning to start changing my name back, dropping him from life insurance, cell phone, etc. once he gets the 10K from me later this week.

What is the logistics plan for his selling items?  That sounds awkward if he's selling items from the house you're still in together.  In that case, I'd plan to be there, with several friends.

I don't think the plan is quite set yet.  He has advertised on CL for a yard/sale auction on "a Saturday".  I think that he really isn't sure if/what he wants to sell yet, because he still doesn't know where he is going to be living.  And also, maybe it is more symbolic of him letting go, which he clearly still does not want to do, and so maybe he is "putting it off" for that reason, too.

I'm here! I support you    I even have a whole cheering section for you  :) Congratulations on the divorce, even if he's still living there. It's a big psychological step.

Yes, you should be present when he sells stuff. Bring in your people so you have moral support, even if it makes you feel weird. Can you do that? If he tries to sell things that aren't listed, tell him you will deduct the amount he makes from the $$$ you will pay him in the settlement. Or something like that.

And good plan to start separating your life from him as soon as you can, not just for legal reasons, but for your own peace of mind. It will help lift your morale, I think, and start giving you a sense of boundaries even while he's living in the house. And maybe even privacy.

One thing you might want to do is block him from checking your credit report too. Isn't he trained as a private investigator? He might get a bit creepy after he's out of the house, and you don't want him snooping around anywhere he shouldn't be, including having access to your private financial history. The day he moves out, arrange to have someone come in and change the locks asap. That will also be good for your head space.

Big hug to you! I'm really pulling for you.

I am still here! 

Cheers to getting the divorce.  |iiii

I would drop him from anything you have him on as beneficiary asap, if you have not already done so.   



Excellent ideas.  You might want to consider opening new bank accounts, if I am not mistaken, some members have had accounts raided even after their spouse was removed because they had the account numbers and passwords. Ditto for credit cards. . .have new ones issued.

Give up on you? No way. . .I am busy getting balloons, party hats, horns and a cake for your April 15th party!  :)

Another thought... .  video the items Ianthe house now to document what you have, so if he sells an item he isn't entitled to, you have proof and a basis for deducting $$$ from the settlement.

As you start to take care of these seemingly small (but symbolic) things, you are going to slowly start getting your strength back. It's a great feeling -- and important for you, since he'll still be there trying to "rent space in your head."

Plz let us know what kind of cake you want at your party on April 15  :)

Yay! You are all still here!  I love you all... .  

Yesterday he had packed up a bunch of stuff, piled high in the garage in large tupperware boxes (solid opaque colors).  I guess I need to go through and make sure none of my stuff is in there.  I'm sure he will harrass me the whole time while I try to do this (if the boxes are still there).  He took 18 x 20 pic of D2 in frame from the mantle, and a few of her other photos in frames and both digital photo frames (one is his premaritally).  He cleaned out and unplugged the small fridge in the garage, which is not on the list of stuff he asked for, although we do have another small fridge in another room in the house.  He took a big Costco size box of printer paper (also not in the list, but he is taking out printer/fax/copier).  How picky should I be about this stuff?  Obviously he is not a rational person.  Do I just let most stuff that doesn't really matter go, and just focus on him being gone instead?  I know it isn't right in principle, but is it worth more harrassment and name calling and crap of this sort?

I am praying that he really truly leaves by April 15th, and doesn't make me figure out how to do it legally.  He is also to sign the tax refund check, so that I can deposit it.  We are getting a big  refund, and I need it to incorporate into the 65K that I have to pay him.  He has already threatened to not sign if I don't give him back the ring (he also did not ask for/not listed in the agreement).  The settlement does specifically say that he is to sign it.  But again, I may have to have that enforced.

I hear you all about videoing the items in the house... .  if he hasn't already packed up the camera and camcorder.  Guess I can use my phone.

I am ordered to give him 10K by Friday.  Guess I'll just wait until then.  We already have separate accounts, always did.  But I need to get a car, and then drop the insurance and stop paying for his cell phone and everything else.

I haven't gotten the decree yet, so I can't get him off of the life insurance, etc. yet.  L said it would be out this week, so I am waiting.

Please keep in touch with me.  Even though I've made this big psychological step, I still have many more to go :)

It does sound like positive movement... .  of course, it can all go "pear-shaped" in a hurry, as we all know.

So, here's what my DH's experience was, when he sold his house to The Dark Princess.

First of all, the house title and mortgage was in his name; she had never been on any legal papers.  She had moved out in 1995 but returned periodically when a current relationship went bad, and pretty much came and went as she wished.  However, she never filed for divorce and neither did DH.  When DH and I reconnected (we had known each other as teens, crazy about each other but went different ways), he quickly filed.  The intent was for him to move into my house, 100 miles away.  Rather than put his house on the market, with all that entailed, I suggested he ask if TDP might want to buy it -- baaaaaaadddddd suggestion, but then I was still pretty naive about personality disorders.

So there I was, with a 4-bedroom, 4-bath, fully furnished house that couldn't really fit a lot of his "stuff."  Plus, much of the "stuff" (including an entire storage building) at his house still belonged to The Dark Princess.  So she said she wanted to buy the house, and DH started moving his smaller items to my house bit by bit.  Then they hit a snag (like most everyone does), in which she decided to go for alimony, child support (for the adult daughter and grandaughter, no less), ownership of the house she had no legal interest in, and weird stuff like DH continuing to pay for the care of the adult daughter's dog.  She absolutely COULD NOT understand why her business even needed to be named in the divorce papers (DH was clarifying that he had not interest in her business, she had no interest in his; she had a house; he had a house, etc.).  In the end, the only thing that worked was to say, "We'll see you in court."  Her business was a front for illicit activity -- an Asian massage parlor, which she owned and operated actively as a prostitute.  This is the part people just can't believe -- DH is a professional, with community standing and stellar reputation, and he knew that she could be arrested at any time.  He felt humiliation that the ex had become what she was, within a few years of walking out on DH and the children.  But her business and the unreported cash from it was her Achilles heel, and she was petrified at the thought of being questioned about her business in court.  So -- immediate settlement.  If we had known, we would have played that hand 6 months earlier.

Even so... .  DH moved his large items to my house while TDP was in Thailand visiting her family.  A distance of 12,500 miles seemed prudent.

And many, many items just didn't seem important to worry about.  We had digitals of a lot of photos, and he really didn't need furniture because of my house.  I think you just have to look at the big picture and make a judgement call on what's worth fighting over and what is.

Focus on taking care of yourself. Do you care about the small fridge? If not, let it go. But keep track in your mind, or tell him out loud, so he knows you are tracking the boundary, even if only symbolically. Because you might want to leverage that for later when he asks for something big. ":)ude, you got the fridge, the this, the that, the xyz stuff, all the this and thats, and that stuff too. None of that was listed. So no, you can't have this."

For a lot of us, the splitting of stuff is very messy and not at all fair, on either sides. It's the "fire" that people refer to, even in low-conflict divorces, when people say they lost it "in the fire."

Also, this process has emotionally and psychologically worn you down. There will be plenty of time to heal and regroup, and think in clear-headed ways about assertiveness and enforcing boundaries. Go easy on yourself. If you don't really care about the stuff, let it go.


It sounds like he might be motivated to sign it if it counts toward his money, no? But this is BPD, so he may also do whatever he needs to do to stay negatively engaged. If it makes any difference, most wedding rings don't fetch a bazillion. I was shocked how my $$$ high-quality non-blood diamond ring was not even worth selling. I just kept it. Are you attached to it? If so, then make a point now of standing up for it (in your head). If not, hold onto until the last minute, knowing it might create leverage for something else. "You move out by April 15, you can have the ring."


I'm glad you're posting often. There are a lot of psychological steps ahead -- it's good that you know that. This site, the members here -- really made a huge difference for me. This stuff isn't for the faint of heart. You've taken the hardest big first step, so be kind to yourself and go easy on the other stuff while you hold things together these next few months.



LnL

LNL,  Your post was like a breath of fresh air, thank you |iiii

I am not a "stuff" person, never have been.  I really just don't care.  I want copies of the photos of the kids that he has on DVDs, that's what matters to me.  I just hope he will cooperate with that.  I am not good with computers, and am planning to ask him to make copies.  But, even if I don't get them, it's only a small gap in the lives of my children, and I could live with it.

I took my flutes, one that I grew up learning on and one that is a family heirloom that my great uncle played in a big band, so that I make sure they don't disappear.

I don't want him to touch my diplomas, but since they won't get him any money, I don't think that he will.

I am thinking of putting the ring with the flutes in storage today.  I have still been wearing it to this point so far.  I know that sounds crazy, but I have no safe place to put it in the house and no safety deposit box, and I didn't want him to take it if I took it off.  I am kind of attached to it, in that I really like it.  I kept wearing it because I think it is beautiful, I didn't have anywhere to put it, and I didn't want to advertise to the whole word that I was going through a divorce.  I was thinking of keeping it and maybe passing it to D2 when she is grown.  I guess I could part with it if it helps him to move out/use it as leverage as you say.

I checked in the basement last night, and it seems like most of my stuff is probably still there, so I've decided to let the packed boxes go.

Please, someone, check in with me today if you have time... .  I need my bpdfamily!

Getting the valued items out of the house is a good idea.  You'll feel safer that way.

As to the ring, here's a suggestion.  (I get it -- I love pretty stones.)  You might not want to pass a ring from a failed marriage to your D -- some people are superstitious, some are not.  However, what I did after divorce was to have the stone re-set into a pendant and wore it on a nice chain.  That might be something you'd enjoy wearing yourself and also be more comfortable giving to your D some day.

If you still have access, you could take the computer or the DVDs to Best Buy, or someplace similar to have copies made.

If you have baby books/items, you might want to place those in storage also.  During my day, baby books were kept, first lock of hair, hospital bracelets, etc. 

You are doing great!   

For some reason I still care about what he is going to say/do in response to anything that I say or do, but I am really trying to work on this.  In that regard, I think I might go home without the ring on tonight and then withstand whatever bs he has to say about it followed by whatever threats he spews out. 

Talked to L today... .  we are filing the custody action.  I feel like we need to have something legal in place around the time that he moves out because I don't think we are going to agree on what to do otherwise.  He is deadset on 50/50 and I am deadset against it.

thanks for suggestions on the ring and also baby items.

Believe me, I am someone who settled for 50/50 some 5 years ago.  No matter what my ex has done, I only get baby steps from the court.  The 'best' outcomes usually start out with the very best orders we can manage to get.  :)on't be timid about seeking what you feel is proper.

Expect him to say "I'm available since I don't work much... .  "  :)uh, getting the children a lot of the time would be a self-fulfilling prophecy, he would claim "I can't work much becuase I'm watching my child."

This is important to pay attention to -- FD is right. Ask for what you want and then as your strength builds, you'll find it less daunting to actually tackle it. So fake it til you make it. Pay really close attention to your lawyer and listen to whether or not he or she starts to try and talk you out of your goals. Then come here and we will help you tackel your L 

Lawyers have different agendas than we do. They can still be good lawyers -- or like Matt's experience and many other members -- you can have lawyers who are bad AND have different agendas. Then you come here and we help you figure out how to get a new L.

I did not buckle during my temporary order mediation, but man did they try to wear me down. My L not so much, but the mediator, yes. I am SO glad I didn't because now, as I file for sole legal custody, I have the consistency of what I have wanted all along backing me up. Like FD said, it has been baby steps, but if you do things well and don't have some of the heinous awful court experiences that some members have (I think you and I are lucky we're the moms), things will eventually swing in your favor.

If you have been the primary caregiver as a mom, then the bias is definitely in your favor. Let's hope you have a decent judge. I have one. They are out there.

Cheering section is activated!

I am going to ask for every other weekend and one evening (non overnight) per week.  I already know that he is planning to use the "I am available" excuse, among other things.  I have been the primary caregiver, but for some reason, he disagrees with that, too.  My attorney seems supportive, however... .  even though I said the above was my goal, at the settlement meeting last week, when custody came up, he suggested every other weekend and 2 evenings each week as a possible temporary arrangement.  That did upset me to some extent, because why would I suggest more time for a temporary arrangement than I am planning to ask for permanent?  I don't care if he doesn't think that I won't get that, he should still abide by my wishes.  I am going to be very careful about him trying to manipulate me away from my goals with custody.  Like you said, I'd much rather be working toward 50/50 than trying to work away from it.

In other news, this probably won't surprise any of you, but H started trying to sell me back the items that he was "awarded" at the settlement.  "You can have my car for $6500."  and "You can buy back the bed for $500, and I'll take the other one."  and the last one last night "You can have my car if you'll pay the cell phone and insurance on both vehicles for a year".  All while refusing my requests to move the bed from the basement to the bedroom when he moves and to make copies of the photos on CDs that we have.

Do you know what your county's standard guidelien schedule is?  My county gives more frequent visits to children under 3 years old than for the older children.  It used to be alternate weekends and a couple overnights in between.  A year ago it changed drastically to ONE alternate weekend overnight and a few evenings in between, very unfavorable for the non-primary parent.

My point is that if your county has similar standard schedules, you could agree to a second evening visit every two weeks until the child is 3 years old, then it would change to the typical or usual one evening in between alternate weekends.  In effect, stick to the standard schedule if at all possible.  If you county does have a favorable schedule for the primary parent, then that schedule is your friend, embrace it and try to never let it go.  Yes, he later might lose interest and want the child far less than written on paper, but don't count on it.

Not making the copies for you... .  you won't get cooperation unless he feels it benefits him, so stop trying, it gives him too much leverage and he may try to wheel & deal you some more.  Probably you have a friend who can copy CDs or DVDs.  You could do it yourself, but if you don't have the confidence, then have a friend instruct you, have a friend do it for you or have a store do it for you.  First things first... .  do you have access to those CDs or DVDs?

I guess I don't know the standard guideline schedule.  I will have to ask L.  Maybe that is how he based his suggestion.

Good point on the asking for help/cooperation.  After he said he wouldn't do it, I asked him where they were.  He said if you can't remember where I told you, then that's your problem.  I saw them recently I think, but now that I've asked, he's probably gone and packed it up.  I will try looking for them again this weekend.  Jerk.

You can telephone your domestic or family court (should be a free call) and ask them if they have a standard or guideline parenting schedule.  If there is one, then you can ask whether it's on their website or how to get a copy.  Then you can see for yourself without having someone (lawyer) provide details piece by piece and only when requested.

My court has it online, though it's not very easy to find.

But I specifically made a point about the child's age.  If your court has a different schedule for children 3 years plus and it's more favorable to you, then make sure that change is included.  Yes' it's only a 'temporary' order, but in our cases those order can last for a year or two and very often morph into final orders - courts are reluctant to change what has been 'working' until then. That's why you need to look ahead and avoid potential problems long before they hane a chance to crush you.  Like a runaway freight train, our courts are often unable to turn on a dime, you need to start turning well in advance.  Look ahead.

In my case, we have a GAL again and a recommendation was made to change parenting time slightly in my favor.  However, in less than two years my son will move into the teen group and the schedule would have him spending less time with the non-primary parent.  GAL's recommendation is silent on that threshhold and did not mention any change then.  If at all possible, I don't want to go back to court in two years for something that should have been addressed now.  That's a problem with non-standard orders, too much that's built into the standard process is cut out, some good, some bad.

And *temporary* means *permanent* for many of us. Unless something really wacky happens, and then you have to go back to court to modify it. If your L tries to sell temporary as temporary, you definitely have a loser. Stick to your guns!

Also, there are standard things the courts use to establish who the primary caregiver was. Who takes D to daycare, dentist, doctor, who makes the appt's, who buys her diapers, who puts her to bed at night, who arranges playdates, who feeds her at night, those kind of things. If your H squabbles about the stuff that's hard to prove (because he will), then look back at your calendar to see when D's well-child checks were and who made the appts, who took her, that kind of thing. It's a pain to document, but it will help clear your mind and let you see the real patterns. I use Google calendar to also track the things that are ongoing. I enter things as though they are events, and then when you need to, you can print out a nice "agenda" view that itemizes everything by date.

One of the advantages you have as a non is that you'll have facts to back up your claims, so use them to your advantage. But first you have to have them on hand. And even if you never use them, they'll give you confidence. I came in overprepared, but my confidence in knowing what I knew was so helpful. It's like studying for a test and knowing that you really know the material, even if only 3 questions are asked.

Funny about your ex trying to sell you back stuff! What a tool.

I hope you were able to locate the DVDs. 

www.ourfamilywizard.com/ofw/index.cfm/resources/divorce-what-you-can-expect-by-state/ This might be helpful in finding the current guidelines in your state. . .they provide the links to the state government sites.  Or, as FD suggested calling the family court to find out where to locate the information.

$500 for the bed he was awarded and he still gets a free bed . . .what a deal!   

I am unable to find the standard guidelines so far, but haven't made any phone calls.

Important update in this arena:  H told me this weekend he is planning to move in temporarily with a friend, J.  J has two kids that he has custody of every other weekend and Tuesday (I think overnights).  H said he hopes we can agree to every other weekend and also Tuesday overnights when he moves, until we have something else.  He says he wants to have her when J has his kids so that she has someone to play with. This is very important, as you say, because it can set a precedent.  I did have my L file a custody suit last week.  Umm, I am really hoping for every other weekend and one evening dinner (NOT overnight).  J also drinks plenty of alcohol from what I tell.  His kids are approximately D11/12 and S6/7.  I know the kids, they are not bad kids.  I just don't think it's a great environment with D2 and two relatively non-involved dads.  I know J's gf, and she has always said J is uninvolved.  H will probably be inclined to let D2 play with kids, and not pay them a whole lot of mind while watching tv and drinking beer with J.  I have always put D2 to bed every night since birth (exception of a couple of nights) and I don't think she's ready for more than every other weekend without mommy. 

Please offer thoughts and suggestions.

Also, I forgot to add that my current schedule for my S7 is every other weekend and every Wed. overnight.  (His father is immature and irresponsible, but not crazy, and does not have anger control issues or drink any alcohol).  On one hand I don't mind them being away on separate weekdays because it affords me with some one on one time with each, but I just don't know about the overnights for D2 (3 in early May)

I did just find an online link to the "Court's standard Order and recommended form of order for settled custody cases", which states the following as the standard:

1. every other weekend Fri-Mon when child is taken to school or daycare

2. one weekday evening until 8 pm, and

3. such additional time as the parents can agree.

Then that's your reasonable maximum for him.  Period.

I still think he wants as much time as possible so he can (1) have an excuse to work as little as possible and (2) to try to get child support from you.  So don't feel sorry for him.

However, one thing to do would be to make sure (probably court would do this anyway) the order matches the children's schedules to the same weekends.  But beware that he may try to get an overnight in between rather than an evening since the other father gets an overnight.  Don't fall for it, stick to the "standard" schedule as the most he gets, at least in a settlement.  Or maybe that could be your final concession to him, letting him get an in between overnight.  Not sure what a judge would decide, there are so many factors.

with my S7, the every other weekend is Fri-Sun, not Mon.  So if I also agreed to that weekend schedule and one night overnight, that would be the same number of overnights as the other dad.  However, I still don't want to agree to more than the weekend overnights yet... .  I just don't believe in my heart that it's the best thing for little D2.

I definitely agree with your second statement, despite H having said "I'm not going to take you for child support" while stating that he is sure that I will do the same to him (I won't, but won't tell him that).

I have yet to tell my attorney of his recent proposal, but I guess now that the suit has been filed, the next step is the custody conciliation meeting.  The question is when will that occur with respect to H actually moving out?  The reason I filed is because I feel like we need some form of a legal agreement when he moves, or he will just force whatever he wants... .  

My lawyer said child support was virtually a right that couldn't be bartered away or promised away, at least in my state.  Post-divorce we settled on alimony only, so my lawyer added language "If ex seeks child support then FD can return to court to have alimony reduced."

Is this the same county?  Perhaps the judge might be willing to have the new order brought closer in line with the current one for your older child.

But be aware that young children (under 3) are usually given more frequent visits with the non-primary parent.  So your logic "she's very young so there shouldn't be in between visits" may be the opposite of the court's inclination to allow more frequent visits for the youngest children.  But as you said, she'll soon be 3 and then the under-3yo issue will be a moot one.

I feel this is something your lawyer should have already given you guidance on.  Are you sticking with this lawyer or will be be pondering using some other lawyer?  What you don't want is a lawyer that meets you inside the court house and at the last moment says, "Oh, by the way, what do you think about... .  "  When dealing with xPD you need to be thinking a few steps ahead so you're not caught off guard and unprepared.  That will happen anyway, but at least your lawyer should try to keep it to the bare minimum of surprises and gotchas.

It is the same county, and by the time the order would go into effect, she will be practically 3.  *Maybe* the same schedule as for S7 would be ok (every other wknd and one weekday overnight), but my gut is telling me no more overnights than necessary.  I am just so worried about his effect on her personality, emotional stability, etc.  Not to mention his constant discussion of the divorce, etc.  He already grills my S7 for news everytime he comes back from his dad's, so I'm sure he will do it to D2 as well.  All of the rules you are not supposed to break with your children as far as respecting the other parent, etc, he freely breaks.  And doesn't care.

I was thinking of keeping L.  He does seem to understand the importance of custody here, and we have talked of the strong possibility of using psych and/or custody evals as well.

If you go into these custody battles knowing that you are headed for high-conflict, you have an advantage. I know it doesn't seem that way, but it is. It's an advantage because there is a high chance you will be dealing with custody issues for a long time, and you know that. BPD makes it that way. By being in a high-conflict r/s like the one you're in, your chances of having this drag through court is high. Either you settle for something crappy now and you go back to modify it later after something really bad happens, which sucks and is super hard and expensive to do, and stay in court that way, or you keep your goals in mind now and stand your ground, and stay in court that way. Standing your ground might feel like losing, but in high-conflict world, you have a strategic advantage.

I'm going to push you a little on the issue of sticking with your L. Do you truly feel that your L has been good? Or are you more worried about confronting L about your concerns? Because this is important. I've been there -- lots of us have. Not wanting to confront my L about things that really bothered me. I was in therapy with a tough therapist while divorcing n/BPDx, and she told me I needed to tell L every thing that made me mad. I did it, and my L responded in a really good way. We have a better r/s, and she knows what my goals are -- I wrote them down for her and told her what I would not settle for.

Push your L to tell you what the plan is. Take notes, lots of them. It's hard to follow it all when you're under so much stress. Have a friend come with you and take notes if you can't. Debrief after you meet with your L to make sure you understand what's happening. This is a freaky time! Are you irritated that your L has not told you the standard guidelines? Tell your L you need more guidance, that you are D2's advocate and you want to know everything you can.

It's tough in the beginning, but it will get easier. You're doing really well -- having doubts about the arrangement H proposed, for really good reasons. Your instincts are excellent and you know what is best for D2. That's huge. Let that stuff guide you! 

Thanks for the push, lnl.  I think L has been good, but has done a couple of things that have irritated me/I don't understand, and sometimes feels a bit less assertive than I think he ought to be.  This may be attributable more to me not speaking my mind as much as I should, as you have said.  My non confrontational style of communicating is probably by biggest downfall. 

I am planning to let him know that I was unhappy that he proposed a possible temporary schedule on March 1st, which he did NOT run by me first and did NOT match what I had said my goal was.  (My T has the same L for her custody case, btw, and says she happens to know some other families that have him and that have the exact same schedule that he proposed that day--every other weekend and two weekday evenings/wk--so maybe that's just his standard).  Don't just throw your standard out there because it's work for Dick and Jane.  H is a bird of his own feather!  I am also unhappy that he promised to me that he would take care of getting H to give me copies of the photos that day, but I am pretty sure he completely neglected that as well.  I also feel like his plans are often not concrete enough for me to grasp... .  maybe they are in his head, and he's not communicating it well enough, I'm not sure.  But I need to discuss that as well.

H was quiet last night, which means the storm will likely be here tonight, and that's always scary.

Well, the storm came last night.  H started going off at first S7 when I came home with him (he made the mistake of asking me to turn the oven light on so he could see what H was cooking for dinner) and then me while we were eating dinner.  I finally said, "I'm about to call somebody if you don't stop".  He was like go ahead, I'm not playing your games or dealing with your threats anymore, I'm going to make a call of my own.  Then he walked out of the house with his phone.  While he was out I called and left a VM with L and then called 911.  A cop came and talked to me and then H, and then said this is a r/s issue, not a police matter, work it out amongst yourselves.  So, I kind of feel like an idiot for calling, but I am so sick and tired of listening to the constant bs that streams out of his mouth, and always in front of the kids!  I don't know, at least he could again see that I am NOT playing games. I said I was going to call, and I did.  Just like I said I wanted a divorce (he thought it was a game), and I did that too.  Move out date is by April 15th.  Later last night he told me he would have to pay a year's rent up front to get an apt. (no job), and he needs $760 more.  He said if I would pay that, on top of the remainder of the settlement I owe him (which is a huge chunk of change), then he would be happy to move out by next week.  NO WAY!  I am not giving him another red cent!  There must be a way for him to plan the date he wants to move and for me to be able to give him the settlement that day, but not before (that is what the settlement says, it is payable WHEN he moves).  I am hoping for more quiet this weekend after last night, but I also just filed a custody suit, so the feathers are going to be ruffled again.  Please offer support and suggestions as you always do so well!

How did H handled the police visit? Did he calm down afterwards, and was he on good behavior when the cop was there? You know what's really awesome about the fact you stood up to H and called the police? Your S7 saw you stand up to a bully. My T would have given you a big high five for that  :)

Have you told S7 what's happening, and to be aware that the next month is going to be hard with H in the house? Can you tell him that you expect it might be harder than usual, but you are planning on doing x and y and z if H does a and b and c? Maybe let him know that you are aware of the stress and have a plan for how you are going to deal with it? That might make him feel much more safe even though there is a lot of wacky tension in the house.

About your L -- a lot of them do have standard guidelines that they are following, and EOW + 1 is common, but is that true for toddlers in your state? In my case, my L arranged it so that S11 did not spend Sunday night with N/BPDxh. That was a big win. I tried to eliminate the +1 evening overnight, but that was harder to fight for because it was a pretty short night -- N/BPDx got home at 6pm. And a lot of Ls don't explain much because they know it costs us a lot of money. The point is to make sure they work for you, and if you are assertive with them consistently, they will behave in different ways, like not assuming they know what is best for you. Not being assertive has been the downfall for lots of nons   You're not alone there!

 |iiii  You did one of the best things you could have done. . .you showed him you will not hesitate to call the police.  I hope the rest of the weekend was uneventful for you and the kids. 

Hello NoWhereToGo,

Here is a ton of support from me! 

I second what the others have posted.

Bravo for you for calling the police! As ForeverDad said, you showed your son how to be assertive and how to stand up to a bully when you called the police.

As for working with a lawyer, I second what everybody has been posting about them. You need to be assertive with them, also. Make sure you know their plans for your case. Don't let them agree to anything without your approval, and don't let them push you into anything that you don't think is good for your or your children. They are used to working with normal people, and most don't know how to handle cases involving BPDs/NPDs. You will probably have to educate your lawyer about dealing with your soon-to-be ex.

You can do it!

AnotherPheonix    |iiii

omg, it feels so good to be congratulated on my move to call the police, when the police made me feel bad about it.  I am glad that I at least made the point that I am not joking around.  He was well-behaved when they came and afterwards, trying to smooth it over with me and S7, kind of apologizing and trying to explain why he blew up. He did feel a bit justified, however, saying to me that "See, a third party has now told you not to involve third parties in your r/s issues.  Maybe now you'll believe me"  Whatev.   He had no major events Fri, Sat, or Sun.  So I think it helped.  However, he did continue with "crazy", still asking me to buy him a house so that he can start a "sober house" (he is currently helping to manage one, which is sort of funny given that he drinks too much) and being upset with me for saying no.

I have explained to S7, but I think H continues his distortion campaign against me, and S7 seems upset with me that ":)addy" is going to have to leave, we are going to sell the camper, he won't be able to play video games with H and I"m not really a gamer, etc.  I think he will change his attitude when he actually sees and feels how much happier and calmer our house is without Daddy there. 

In other news, I have been told the decree was sent, so the divorce is now official. 

I have filed the custody complaint, and am sure this will be H's next big trigger for raging.

How should I be acting towards H while he still lives in our home?  I haven't really changed anything yet.  And, you will all probably be disappointed, be we went grocery shopping as a family again on Sunday, as we have for the most part all along.

He is supposed to be moved out by 4/15 according to the settlement agreement.  My parents said they can come down that weekend before the 15th.  It makes me nervous to have to tell him that they would be coming, but I am guessing that you all think it's a good idea for them to be there?

Honestly, your situation is crazy, having to live with him at this point. So be gentle with yourself -- it will take a while to heal, and you've taken a huge step. If you do things that are irrational and maybe not in your overall interest, well, that's just how it is right now. You took the biggest step, so let yourself indulge in some weird things like grocery shopping together. But stop when he is out of the house   :)

How you should be acting toward him right now? Whatever you think will minimize the abuse and stress. Other than sleeping with him. Maybe don't do that. Be there as little as you can? Treat him like a guest who is leaving soon, and you are delighted he's leaving? I don't know what I would do. Probably have dinner out as much as possible and maybe have people over if it made sense, so I could have emotional support. But it's BPD we're talking about and honestly, mine was such a rager that nothing would have made it better. So just do what you need to do for your own piece of mind. Don't worry about whether you're doing it right.

And about the cops making you feel bad. Middle finger to them. They see domestic disputes all the time and they are weary about it. Doesn't mean that you did the wrong thing, it just means that they know there isn't much they can do. And I think you rattled your H, so congratulations again. You stood up to a bully and that's what matters. Everyone else can go to h@ll.  lol

And yes, have your parents come. You need support, and it will be emotional, and it always helps to have other people there who can support you. At the very least, someone to watch the kids so they don't witness anything.

The divorce is final.  Any possible scrap of a feeling of 'obligation' for intimacy is gone.

No, there's no intimacy.  Sometimes we sleep in the same bed, but D2 and I always go to sleep in it together first, and she is always in it with me.  He sometimes chooses to come into the bed and sleep later. (D2 between us) Please God, don't let him try to do anything with me again before he moves, but why wouldn't he?  Crazy is as crazy does.

DIVORCE IS FINAL!  Happy Dance and  wave     

You are doing great. . .it is just grocery shopping. 

Once H is gone, I think S7 will settle into the new routine. . .it might be fun to see if he can teach Mom to game a bit, or you all can find something different to do together. 

lol Sorry, but the idea that he thinks you would even consider buying him a sober house!

I am so glad your parents are coming to lend their support and maybe help get that darn bed in the basement upstairs! 

  Congratulations on getting the divorce final!

Woo! Woo!

I like lnl's idea of just treating him as a guest.

AnotherPheonix    |iiii

It is definitely over!  I just got a copy of the divorce decree today!  |iiii Trying to figure where to have the official copy sent to keep it safe.  H has still been much better since the police were called last Thur. 

Yest. he was talking of buying a pizzeria.  It is already up and running he would just be taking it over.  Owner is trying to sell for about $40K.  First words out of H's mouth were "but I would have to work a lot of hours.  Not that I mind the work, but I'm worried about D2".  This is his supposed concern over her being in daycare for too long. 

I am hoping he brings it up again today, and I will say, GO FOR IT.  Don't worry about D2... .  I have already made arrangements with my job for me to be able to pick her up, and I am working on other arrangements as well.  I know he will drag out living with us as long as possible, because he will see it as another free month of rent, so why wouldn't he?

Could you have the official copy mailed to your L, parents or your work? 

IMO--the pizzeria, I would just listen and not encourage either way.  If he did buy it for instance, and it went south on him (which is likely because the new would wear off), you would be blamed for talking him into it.  I do not know if giving him a head's up on all the arrangements you are making for D2 is a good idea.  Kinda goes against not letting him know your strategy.

You have a move out date agreement. . .is it legally enforceable?

My parents, yes, but they won't be here until around April 15th.  I am thinking of having it mailed to my coworker that I trust.

The move out date is part of the marital settlement agreement which is now filed with the court, so it is legally enforceable, as far as I know.  God only knows what you have to do to enforce it if he doesn't go, though.  There is also a clause that if he stays past that date that he is responsible for half of the mortgage and utility payments.

Umm, D2's care... .  L just sent me an email that H's L wants us to make a specific proposal to resolve custody now that the custody action has been filed.  Should I really make the first proposal?  Should I let him make the first proposal?  Does it matter?  I am thinking to offer every other Fri-Sun and maybe every Wed. evening non-overnight for staters.  And currently, H picks her up everyday from daycare.  I don't want this to continue.  It's just a huge excuse for him not to be able to work past 4 pm or so and majorly limitis his job opportunities.  I have permission from my job to be able to pick her up until something else is in place.  I have talked to an old daycare teacher of hers that may be able to pick her up from daycare each day for 2-3 hrs until I come home (bascially replacing what H has been doing). This is going to be a major sticking point with H, I think.  Please offer suggestions on how to handle this.

What other penalty or consequence is there if he doesn't leave when scheduled?  Could he stay for another year, two years?  He doesn't get the remainder of his settlement payment until he leaves, right?

Some daycares stay open longer.  In my area most are open until 6 pm and the one I've used in recent years is open until 6:30 pm.

Yes, the settlement $$ is due upon him moving.  He could not stay for another year or two, according to L, we would have to have the order enforced (although exactly how is unclear to me right now).

My daycare is open until 6.  I usually drop off D2 around 7 am, and the limit is 10 hrs.  H is "against" her being there for that long.  Currently I pick up S7 there, usually closer to 6.  I commute 45 min to work, and the daycare is very close to the house.  S7 can be there until 6 because he is only there before and after school. 

I can at least temporarily arrange with my job to be able to get there by the 10 hrs limit.  Alternatively, I am trying to find someone to pick up D2 around maybe 3 or 4 pm and take her home until around 6 when I get home (H currently does this, probably picks her up around 4 pm most days).  One of her prior teachers from the daycare that she knows and likes may be available.  It's not that I don't want H to watch her, necessarily, but I want him to get working!  How do I approach this?

OK, sorry, I am just being selfish here... .  just a reminder for someone to comment on my upcoming custody situation if they have time (see prior posts)

This kind of thinking is tough -- what is best for D2, and what is best legally. Sometimes they overlap, but when they do it's important to check your thinking. Get other people to help you, especially us! Because it sounds so easy and seductive to let your H help where he can.

It would be great if H could pick D2 up at 4pm, but not indefinitely. So in your proposal (put yours out there first), don't think about short-term -- think long-term. Think assertively and strategically because it will stick like gum to your shoe. You may need to start a new thread because moderators cut off posts at the 4-page limit. Maybe start a topic asking for input on what to propose?

First, tho -- can you find out from your L what the state guidelines are for custody of a toddler? You may be offering more than the standard for her age.

I may have mentioned this before, but younger children are generally given more frequent visits.  (In my county the cutoff is 3 years old, so with your daughter nearly 3 this may not even be an issue by the time it gets addressed in court.)  While you may allow for that now, look ahead and see whether the schedule reduces time and either include that or make a specific reference to the guideline.  What would be good to avoid is having to go back to court to force a change to the

Also, other leverage you have is that he has other children, right?  How often does he see them?  Maybe you could use that as leverage in 'negotiations' stating that he doesn't see his other children that much.  That agrument may not carry much legal weight but it might get him to be less unrealistic or possessive.

Frankly, we all know what's motivating him, he wants to find excuses not to work or at least not very much.  Sadly, you can't 'make' him work.  So you just need to make it less likely for him to be able to claim a need/availability to parent and/or get paid support for doing so.

Also, your offer should not be taken as a start of negotiations.  Even if you withold something in case a concession is made later, it needs to be perceived as the maximum you will offer, not a starting point.

Did your L ever request a copy of the eval by the consultant your H hired?  It might have no legal merit in court, but it would but worth asking, IMO, so you don't get blindsided by it. 

Hmm... .  ok, I will start a new thread about this custody issue.  According to my L, there is no standard in this county.  I did post one that I found online earlier, but he said that is just a standard form that one of the judges uses.

Also, your offer should not be taken as a start of negotiations.  Even if you withold something in case a concession is made later, it needs to be perceived as the maximum you will offer, not a starting point.  I am a little bit confused by this previous statement, ForeverDad, can you help me to understand what you mean and how to achieve that?

He does have other children.  The oldest is like 22, and he never knew him growing up at all.  Only first decided to meet him after he met me 4 yrs. ago.  He has two others from his ex-wife, ages 21 and 19.  He got every other weekend with them in his prior divorce decree (from 2002) and I know that he never pushed for 50/50 like he is with D2!  He has seen each of them only a handful of times in the past couple of years.  D21 has moved to Arkansas, was married and divorced already, and S19 graduated hs last spring, enlisted in the Marines, but dropped out the day he was supposed to go to boot camp and still lives locally.  He talks terribly about S19, well not as much now, but did for a long time... .  more stories around that for another time.  Truth is, I'm a physician and his ex-wife is a beautician.  He had to work before, but sees a window of opportunity where he may not have to, on top of his entitlement, etc.

also, no, we never asked for a copy of the consultant's report.  Will bring up with L today if he calls.

Just hoping to hear some more from my friends on these boards regarding comments below.  Did not talk to L today, so I have some more time to think, and I'm not going to allow him to quick put something together anyway.

I have to remember:  THINK ASSERTIVELY AND STRATEGICALLY

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https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=197324.0