BPDFamily.com

i've pretty much made up my mind already, however feel compelled to share, perhaps can gain some perspective. I'll really try and keep the back-story short: the big breakup with my uBPDxgf happened about 14 months ago. since then she's gone through 2 bf's. we were 'friendly' at first, then we had a short/fake/no sex recycling about 8 months after initial break. this ended about 6 months ago and i hadn't talked to her since, i removed FB friendship, NC the whole 9.

anyways she leaves me a voice mail a few days ago saying she wants to pay me back money she owes, and that she wants to drop off a drill i let her borrow. well, i heard thru the grapevine that she broke up with ex bf #2 (since our r/s) recently, i can smell the BS from a mile away. i didn't find out about BPD until a few months ago, prompted by her ex-roomate (another woman) who had intense fights with her and upon moving out called me telling me she thought "something is wrong with your ex". Fast forward to now, I strongly feel my ex is BPD.

I sent her a message today via facebook, we're not fb friends but i just sent a personal message. basically said not to worry about the money she owes and that i just appreciate that she wanted to pay it back but i'd rather she focus on herself and that i don't care about the money. also that she could keep the drill, that i'd forgotten i even left it with her and that i wanted to buy a newer one anyways. it was a very friendly message, but basically i was saying; or rather doing was removing any excuse she would have to contact me. so she calls me IMMEDIATELY after i sent the message and we had a brief but friendly phone convo (i felt like a fake if i didn't pickup, i ain't scared! lol)

i have a new gf now, and b/c of circumstances i've decided to let my current gf know about *all* communication with the ex. i'm friendly with all my exes other than my BPDex and feel i could be "friendly" with her given distance but no way in hell we can be friends now for as long as i'm with my current gf.

i never thought i'd hear from her again. now i feel like she'll try to get back in my life until she can sink her talons in her next victim. if she keeps pushing the issue i'm going to tell her that i can't see her at all b/c i'm with a good woman now and i'm not going to disrespect my current r/s. i'm also going to tell her i think she has BPD, but prolly only in an email or in written form, no way i'd risk feeling her poison saying this over the phone or in person. i've decided to do this for ME, b/c i want to, b/c i want to live by the truth, b/c i no longer fear any reaction she may have, b/c i don't like talking with anyone in a friendly manner with elephants this big in the room, b/c i know that i can say something this sensitive without any malice towards her

if she doesn't contact me again, fine, no need to say anything but i'm not going to talk with her in any way shape or form and EVER hide anything i feel like saying. as long as i'm composed, make sure i'm doing it to satisfy my own needs, and that i'm NOT trying to hurt her OR please her, then the truth shall flow. i bet you the truth is like kryptonite to her. comments? i think i just needed to talk it out :-)

If you tell her you can't see her anymore, you are with someone else now and she has BPD all in the same discussion/email, she will only hear the rejection part.  The rest I don't think will go far. 

I know it's tempting to tell her she has BPD... .   I recently starting going there with my back and forth ex... . Its not recommended and it is almost mean I think... . I have pulled far back from sharing any more thoughts of what is wrong with her.

Someone posted something good about it here... .   They said to a poster... .   "How would you feel if someone told you that you were mentally ill?"

That struck home... .

Interestingly my ex tonight was happy to text me that she thinks I am unstable.

Anyway, I don't see anything wrong and actually think it is good to tell her you are with someone else... .   Forego the 'good woman' part as it's maybe a bit thick for her.

Sounds like you are doing really well though... . Good for you!

gotcha. i'm doing it for me. writing things out, saying the full truth of the situation is healing for me. i could care less if she threw the email away... .   well, ok, i'm human i know a part of me would want to make an impact or perhaps have some positive outcome, but i've found over the past few months that i need to do things for me and me only (regarding any r/s with her). personally i think she'd just reverse things and say to herself that i was the one with a personality disorder; that would be my guess, but honestly i have no idea what she's thinking at any time.

i dunno, maybe others could share what happened when they spilled the beans? i'm still not sure if i will, just that i will if she keeps contacting me; for the simple fact that it feels good to tell the truth without regard for the response (as long as i'm in a *positive* mood). this gives me power back

thank you for the words! so, i feel it's important for me, for my own personal power to be truthful and to not worry about her reactions, as long as my intention is coming from a place of personal love and power. i could care less how it makes her feel--please understand i say this without malice. just that having empathy for this person doesn't serve me at all. in this phase, after so much time i'm only after restoring my own personal power--writing on this forum is one way this restoration helps. telling the whole truth, keeping myself in check so that i'm not offensive to her or me, is a way for me to feel better. i don't know why, but so far as long as i've trusted my gut feelings it's been positive. if i can feel just a little better by saying the truth to her i don't really worry about how it would affect her. i'm incapable of making her feel any worse than she already feels about herself

I am doing the same thing here in journalizing my experiences here. What are you hoping will come out of telling her?If you are coming from a place of love how can you not worry how it will effect her? I'm not judging as I just went through this... .

good questions... .


that i will feel better. simple as that. here's why--defining my thoughts by writing them out and communicating them is releasing out energy i have inside of me. giving lots of thoughts and feelings the form of words and then sending these words away helps me release from my body and soul subconscious ideas that i don't want to cling to. it's cleansing in a way. also, telling the truth, without the intent of malice or forgiveness... .   communicating this for me is a practice at the art of saying what i mean no matter how difficult the truth is. i'd be cheating myself if i just said a whole bunch of stuff in a mean way or to try to get a reaction, i'm looking to define my thoughts and know i have the courage to hit "send" and be proud that something so difficult to acknowledge has been said in a way that i'm proud of. then, it's outside of me and simpler to let go.


haha, that's the thing, i'm referring to loving myself, not her. truth be told, there's still some "love?" there for her, but this isn't real, it's not real love. but the love for myself is. i think it's a mistake to care for anyone who doesn't care for you. so here's the thing--if i can be truthful, to myself, and be respectful of myself, proud of what i say whatever she takes from it is on her. like i said, if the truth is kryptonite to her then that's not my issue. i don't think it will be though. mostly indifference is the most likely response. i get the sense that unless there's some immediate personal gain for her then she'll just filter out anything. either way, i know I would feel better  :)

if it sounds selfish, it's because it is. i feel it's important to be selfish, self love selfish, if you're dealing with a relationship where the other person only cares for their own self interest

Hurt llama, just wanted to clarify that my exBPD knows/has known that i'm with someone for a while. before, when we were still "friendly" we both talked about people we were dating, it's just that i'm still with the same person. you are correct i'm not trying to play any games by showing off my new gf to her, only that the truth of the matter is that we/she killed off any chance of having a friendship as long as i'm with my current gf (whole nother situation).

but i did want to mention that i don't know how healthy it is holding in how you really feel from your ex. it's true, you should never discuss things when your emotions can get the best of you and it could come out the wrong way--but understand that this is because *you* could hurt yourself, embarrass yourself, or give them fuel to justify calling you mean or crazy when you're not really.

how unfair is the situation you mentioned, where you actually feel bad about being honest to your ex and telling her you feel she has a personality disorder? when you told her, were you trying to be mean? were you angry? or were you concerned, perhaps trying to gain some understanding, hoping it would help in some way?

now, contrast that to her text to you saying that you were unstable--do you think for a minute that she feels bad about saying that to you? do you think she was acting to gain understanding? do you think she cares for how you feel?

personally, it's this continued, self-inflicted, forced, dishonesty and not being able to speak out which is the root of much of the emotional abuse i suffered in the relationship. it's emotional poison to care for this person if you make a comment and they don't care at all when the situation is reversed. they are literally taking your power to fill a void that can't be filled by you or anyone else. so best to not give that power to them. best to not care--this is of course assuming a lot because i don't know many details about your ex r/s. if you were married to this person or forced to keep in contact it would be another story... .   but if it's an ex that's playing games, why keep poisoning yourself by keeping your feelings hidden? or seek any reaction from her at all?

HL,

If it was going to help her, yes she could be told.

If she would react as we would react to someone with credibility telling us, listening with ponder, questions, discussion, seek a professional opinion, yes.

If someone said it to me, it wouldnt be a fair example. Im not BPD. I may reply that I have stress or anxiety. I wouldnt react much, Id laugh but listen and Id say if I really knew them, I am nervous and in a codependent relationship. So do I have a mental illness? No, I dont, want some coffee?

Saying it to a BPD triggers emotions, feelings, probably disgust, shame, self awareness that is negative, overwhelming, an attack, a need to stop this feeling. Shut it off, go away, I hate you, you have BPD, mine would most likely have a break and dillusions, psycotic behavior. Some have a few diagnosis' so to know what would happen is a big roll of the dice.

It might be better if anyone says anything is to give them a list of their behaviors. They can tear it up, but you did tell them. If you can generalize it, maybe it can be done anonomously, but I would do it with great care and Id chose a therapists session vs a letter.

There's no easy answer here. I struggle with it too.

Sometimes we just have to take the time and energy and put that back into us. Its only fair. That is really hard to do when we do it for others with ease.

Best to you.

Sorry last post was for Goldylamont :)

I'm happy to share the results of mentioning BPD to my ex, though I don't know how helpful it will be.

I told mine during a conversation several months back where she had mentioned how badly she wanted to find a therapist because she knew there was something really wrong with her but she didn't know what.  It didn't lead to a fight or anything like that, but she was the one who brought up needing help, so I was just offering up a possibility that seemed likely to me.

Just this week, post-break-up but during a point where she was trying to convince me to give her another chance, she mentioned again that she was going to find a therapist and start working on herself.  I offered support, told her that was a great decision, and mentioned the possibility that she might have BPD again.  This time I explained a few of her behaviors that made me suspect BPD and she asked when I had looked all this information up.  I told her it was a few months ago around when we first talked about it, and she had no idea we had talked about it before. 

She had forgotten the entire conversation, which was a lengthy one where I directed her to websites that offered therapy tools and coping for people with the disorder, and even researched and recommended a few books.  This was less than 90 days ago.  She had gone to the website, told me she would try using the tools they had recommended, and then just instantly forgot about the whole thing.  I reminded her about the website and what it looked like and when I had shown her and she just looked confused and changed the subject.

Granted, my ex had a drug problem on top of the BPD (not uncommon, from what I understand) so it's possible that she was high as a kite when we had that initial conversation, but we went over the website the next day and then talked about it again a day or two later when I asked her what she thought of it. 

So... .   Mine did not react with anger and was actually fairly receptive to the idea.  She was also very high-functioning and would appear perfectly normal to everyone except her immediate family and former romantic partners, but was aware that there was something very wrong with the way she connected and communicated with me and with all the girls that came before me, so she was more self-aware than most with BPD.  Then again, she forgot about the conversation completely and went on with her life exactly the same as before.  She'll probably do the same thing this time too. 

I say if you feel it's something you need to tell her then go for it.  We get so used to walking on eggshells when we're dating someone with BPD that sometimes it feels good to stop caring and just jump up and down smashing the stupid eggshells. 

Goldilamont,

I did text pwBPD that I think she might have  BPD and should try to understand and get treatment otherwise she will remain unhappy. I got a sudden barrage of angry,furious texts incl. a threat that she will have to get a restraining order if I dont stop texting her. I did stop 15 days ago and its full NC now.

She knows that I dont say things lightly and she trusts my analysis a lot. She ,used to say you overanalyse things but in the end you turn out to be right each time.

I believe she will ,sometime in the future, will give a serious thought about what I said. At some point in future she  might be thankful to me and say "U overanalyse but in the end u always turn out to be right" I took the risk but I don't regret it. She didnot carry out her threat of R.O... . I just did what I think a good,sincere friend would have done.

Make sure You say this in a nice, respectful and caring manner. Ensure you safety and take full precautions. All pwBPD's are not the same. Mine is not violent or vindictive.

I have spilled the beans recently and I got a "leave me alone" "your the one who is unstable and needs therapy" etc. 

I am waiting for his softer side to "come back" and I may attempt again for the sake of our child. 

I feel for you sometime the words are on my lips to tell my uBPDh but I always bite my lip. I don't think it would help for us to tell them. I don't think they could handle their perfect version of themselves being questioned.  I don't have any real help for you just wanted you to know that you aren't alone in wanting to tell. But maybe not telling them that they are ill is the difference between them and us. they don't even hesitate to let us know on a regular basis how messed up they think we are. So for now I am just going to pray that he is told but just not by me.

Good Luck you will know when the time comes what is right for you.

Goldy, it's good to see you back around here.

I know how it feels to want to tell the whole truth.  I often feel the same way.  My T calls this "purging".  It's healthy.  However, you might want to consider the importance of who you tell the whole truth to... .     We are no longer responsible for our ex's (never were, really... . ), but we are responsible to them, as we are to all other people.  Would you be telling your ex you think she has BPD out of love and compassion or out of a need to to feel better yourself?  It seems that the need to feel better yourself could be addressed otherwise, and without the risk of the consequences many here are familiar with in trying to tell someone we think they have BPD. 

Also, if you feel that telling her will help you regain some sort of power, I assume that means she still has some power over you at times.  I know the feeling, but when I've acted in an attempt to regain some power it has yet to work out well with the exception of one strategy: NC.  When I say nothing, that's when I really feel in control.

Just some of my perspective... .  

sunrising

My ex has done horrible things to me... .   but in a million years I would never tell him I think he has BPD... .  

... .   in my opinion... .   that's the equivalent of looking a Schizophrenic in the eye and saying, ":)O YOU KNOW YOU ARE CRAZY?"... .   and then, expecting some kind of result.

No one chooses to have BPD. No one chooses to have ANY mental illness. I don't see the good in throwing it in their face for, "self love selfish" motives.

Is this really about loving yourself... .   or evening the score?

Most days, when I think about how hurt my ex's actions have made me... .   I just want to strangle him! But I've learned how to detach WITH love. BECAUSE I care for him, I don't want to hurt him. Why would I want someone to hurt? HURT has done ME no good.

You have another relationship... .   why not focus on THAT instead of your ex?

It's not easy to be in a relationship with someone who is mentally ill. I forget I am dealing with someone with a clearly defined illness. I'm the one with no excuse really. I know better supposedly.

Of course it's 'unfair' and of course she is incapable of seeing things from a normal perspective. To her she cannot acknowledge shame, guilt, remorse. She shows very little empathy.

I'm damaged from the connection... .   and it's starting to feel like heroin addiction.

I gave it another try... .   and I feel like the crazy one here. And a case could easily be made that I did over react... .   or as she just texted me... . that i throw in the towel too fast.

It's a crazy making ride... .   And yet when it stops I feel scared.

After 14 years of marriage to my exBPDw, I was cast aside. Completely broken down I went to see my first T. He listened to me for 30 min and diagnosed... .   , my ex! BPD... . I never stood a chance. I was applauded for lasting so long. I didn't know the full meaning of the disorder, was too frail to accept the diagnosis and was pulled back in for a recycle 6 months later. I mentioned the word BPD, but we didn't give it much meaning, because she was now "committed" to the relationship. The same terrible cycle lasted 10 months this time. Back to the T. His words: "How often are you are you going to let someone do this to you?" It was the final wake-up call. I read, researched and started to heal... .  

My ex called me shortly after in tears. She told me I was probably right about her BPD and asked me for help. I gave her all the info I knew and promised to help her. I was hopeful. She called me back  half an hour later. She had done the research and is not BPD. How DARE I waste my time on such a presumption! She was perfectly healthy and it just didin't work out between us... .  

My T gave me a great abbreviation to learn. F.E.R. F: Fascination, E: Enmeshment/Entanglement, R: Retribution.

So: You become fascinated by the person (and they by you). You become enmeshed/entangled in their life (and obviously their disorder) and then you get punished for becoming involved or getting to close: Retribution.

This is the cycle of BPD. It can happen in a few hours, or 15 years. How ever long YOU allow this to happen.

In conclusion: Telling a BPD she/he has BPD is pointless unless they are truly able to face there own personal wounds and are willing to take the hardship of a long, difficult therapy. However the case may be, since you are obviously the main cause of all her unhappiness, he/she will never accept this information from you. Don't even try... .  

She is now on her 3rd replacement and running F.E.R. again and again and again... .  

mrclear

My uBPDxW is still so angry that I chose to leave our relationship (forget the fact that she put us in debt on travels with friends, jewels for herself and oh yeah, an affair). We split in 2006 yet she still speaks of it like it was yesterday. She now lives alone in a 1 bedroom rental apt. Unhappy and alone.

The kids have a stable home base with me. My life chugs along just fine.

Yet I still get raging emails stating how selfish and mentally disordered I am. Thankfully I have learned to ignore her rants. No volleys of emails. Only the now relatively rare communication regarding the kids.

If I ever tried to guide her to help she would reject it swiftly and aggressively. The truth is too hard for her to face. I think she talks about herself (without knowing it) when she throws her rages at me.

There is no middle ground. There is no help we can give other than to set them on their own and let them get the help on their own (from someone else, hopefully professional).

Dire Wolf

Mrclear, thank you. Good food for thought!

"My T gave me a great abbreviation to learn. F.E.R. F: Fascination, E: Enmeshment/Entanglement, R: Retribution.

So: You become fascinated by the person (and they by you). You become enmeshed/entangled in their life (and obviously their disorder) and then you get punished for becoming involved or getting to close: Retribution.

This is the cycle of BPD. It can happen in a few hours, or 15 years. How ever long YOU allow this to happen. "

mrclear i applaud you on your strength. the difference in our situations is that i don't expect anything from her. and i'm not trying to help her, because i know this isn't in my power. i am NOT saying this to hurt her. but i feel like a fake being "friends" with anyone and holding back feelings like this.

RedCandle, all valid points, please see my responses below:


my uBPDexgf is very high functioning. i wouldn't say anything if i felt she was suicidal or if it would throw her into a rage or anything. if the situation was this intense, I'd just keep things to myself. so, first point is that i don't see her so delusional as a Schizophrenic. Second thing is something i've said many times already, but I should reiterate--I don't expect some kind of result... .   from her. I'm doing this for me. If there were a chance of severe harm to her i wouldn't do it. if there's a chance she may just get upset or not want to talk anymore, well, then i'm fine with that. because i'm just telling the truth, and respecting a friend like i would respect any friend by letting them know the truth.


absolutely about doing something for myself. absolutely NOT about "evening the score". i know there's no way to even the score. i also know that expressing myself out of anger, frustration or hate is not helpful or healing to me. that's why i won't be coming from this place emotionally if i choose to write this message. it's also why i'm choosing to write it out and not talk it out, so that i can review it and make sure i am coming from a place of mutual respect and positive energy, which is required since the subject is so sensitive. it aint revenge :) trust me i know she can play that game far better than me, i wouldn't dare try it with her. 


what makes you think i'm not? i communicate with current gf and let her know that i'm dealing with my ex, about the BPD, everything. we've had some tough conversations but i'm so happy that i can discuss this with her and i think this makes our bond stronger--now this isn't to say that we talk about it often  , lol, only that i keep her informed of any communication with the ex. everybody has a past, i choose not to ignore how i feel, rather try to find the most constructive ways to express my truth, without dwelling on it too much

so awesome sunrising, thanks. Yes, i think you hit the nail on the head regarding healthy "purging". This is what I am doing in a sense. I do agree that i don't necessarily have to tell exBPD about all this as I have a small group of friends to express this to. but, now the situation has changed, the ex is contacting me, i feel like a fraud even talking with her and not expressing to totality of how i feel. i don't think we will be keeping in contact much, but if she chooses to contact me in the future i want her to know where i'm at, how i feel. i don't like it at all smiling in someone's face while at the same time feeling uneasy. i'm not in the r/s anymore and i've made a personal promise to never walk on eggshells for this person again. but it won't come out spiteful or hateful, that would hurt me. also, i'd rather her hear what i feel from me, personally, with an even perspective than from her ex-roomate, who holds her in very very low regard. i've always been like this. i don't like talking behind people's backs. and, discussing this with a few select friends of mine was fine when i thought i'd never hear from the ex again, but now i don't like talking with her at all with this hanging in the air.

and regarding your comment on NC--you're totally right. so thing is i've had NC for around 7 months and never planned to break it. her contacting me now and trying to start up this friendship thing has forced me think about how to deal with things in a new light. i don't think she will be a big part of my life at all, but if she plays *any* part, i want this based on honesty. i hope you can understand. and, yes, of course she still has 'some' power over me or i wouldn't be on these boards, lol, i just want to be responsible with my response to whatever power there is left. hope this makes sense

THANK YOU! causticdork i think of all the replies this may be closest to my situation since i believe my ex to be high functioning, and i wouldn't expect her at all to take any responsibility for anything. thank you for the support, IF i choose to tell her the truth, as i said before it will just be to keep my word to myself, stop walking on eggshells, and further my detachment in a healthy and honest way. i don't expect any change from her. thanks!

Itul, means a lot that you shared this. i didn't even find out about BPD when i was in the r/s, it was a full year after it ended that i even found out, so i dunno how i would have reacted if i found out sooner, even if it was just after the break. i suppose i am fortunate in the sense that this is my ex and this whole communication is really a blip from NC, i don't know how i would react if she were my wife (i believe you mention that you have an uBPD husband). perhaps there's a way that you could release some of this energy you've been forced to hold in and stop biting your lip... .   maybe some positive way to do it? i couldn't say how since you're still in the r/s, but i should say that biting your lip/walking on eggshells, etc., i feel is very hurtful and accumulates little by little over time. i wish you well!

goldy and others,  :)

We're all using great words here: truth, feelings, healthy, responsible, honesty, etc. What we have to understand is, that people with BPD do not really have a concept of what these words really mean. It's not that they don't understand them, they simply can't. Their understanding of these concepts are deepy linked to their disorder and they will only use them to twist and project them into their false reality. Simply to survive... .  

My ex is highfunctioning too, but I think our brief exchange about BPD ultimately worsened our post-relationship communication. She is highly guarded when it comes to our exchanges about anything, because she knows that she is dealing with someone who doesn't see her as "perfect" and is ready to accept her and deal with who she REALLY is. This is intolerable for someone who is preserving a "false" ego. We have kids together and I have to deal with her, but my knowledge about BPD has become a shield and a tool for setting boundaries, not something that I bring up in order to constantly prove healthy values and honest feelings. They simply can't integrate it.

So what do we do? We have all felt the burning urge to write a farewell letter, a testimony of our truth, or communicate our view of the failed relationship. We have a deep need for justice and desperately want our exBPD to understand. That is something you should DEFINITELY do, but we should write it for ourselves, not for them. The udBPD's ultimate goal is to survive, not come to terms with their disorder. If that's our intention, we're on a lost path.

I have written a letter to my BPDex which has, over the past year, evolved and contains 8 pages. It has helped me tremendously to go through the stages of my rollercoaster-ride with a BP and too grasp the concept of my own counter-dependancy, but I know I will NEVER send it, because it would'nt do any good. I keep a journal of all my communication with her (again: there are kids) and sometimes write down an e-mail I would have like to have written instead of the one I really wrote. It's helps me to "purge" and stay on the right path.

If there hadn't been any kids involved and my goal had been to keep an everlasting NC with my ex, I don't know if I wouldn't have sent my letter, eventhough every authority on BPD wold have told me not to... .   In the end however, I believe the ultimate goal is to understand ourselves, why we chose this relationship and how we move on from here. I think we should take time to heal our own wounds. Also the ones we have carried with us all of our lives... .   Let's forgive ourself first, before we start thinking of trying to forgive and understand others... .  

If we then still feel the need to communicate this to our exes, we should be prepared for the fact that they will NOT understand, NOT feel, will NOT feel responsible, will NOT get healthy and will NOT share our "truth"... .  

I know that the day will come when I will read my letter and I simply won't care anymore... .   I will print it out and burn it. A little ritual, to add importance to the event, and then I will move on and realise that my journey with a BPD has actually made me grow and has guided me to a more valuable time in my life.

mrclear

nobody here seems to understand that i don't care about her reaction.

or, perhaps a little more truthful is that i don't *want* to care about her reaction

or, let's delve a little deeper, because i honestly feel like honesty and truthfulness is such a turn-off, bummer, yawn-boring for a BPD that maybe this would give me distance that i want. in a way i'd be protecting myself from myself by pushing her away. i do feel like some of these are hidden reasons i may have. it's worrysome being contacted by her, i feel pretty safe but hell i don't wanna get sucked back into that tornado

i really wanted to try and steer the conversation here to NONBPD folks talking about what *they* wanted. yet many posters default to immediately discussing how much they care about the reaction with the person with BPD. call me crazy, i guess i just felt like for once it would be nice to care more about how you would feel, rather than whatever reaction, or how/why or brain chemistry or anything else pertaining to a person with BPD. wouldn't it be nice, to just be so bored, so over it, just to yawn at the thought of even caring what they think or feel... . if just for a little while?

You feel that doing this will push her away and its a protective move.  You kill the possibility of being hurt anymore because you've hurt her to the point there is no saving this.  She runs away.  You want distance.

There might be better ways to protect yourself here and get that distance.  Like not engaging in any more of her antics, not dancing with her, not looking to engage in needless conflict.  It's as simple as saying "I can't have you in my life anymore your behavior is unacceptable to me.  I will not contact you again and will not be responding to any contact from you.  I wish you well."

The only distance you are going to get is the distance you make for yourself - don't rely on her actions for that.  one of the critical errors I made was handing the reigns over to a person who repeatedly showed me they had no business steering us anywhere.  Steer your own cart Goldy - I'm guessing there are better places you want to go.

Goldilamont,

I also, feel that everyone feels about BPD's feelings and reactions. Nons are not important although they were the once of who were hurt, betrayed,abused and deceived. 

Seems like people need to protect the feelings of their "poor little BPD" even if BPD murders her own  boyfriend in cold blood. The guys life seems trivial as we are all in this mission to protect the feelings of our "poor,helpless BPD"  What a hypocricy ! Isn't it identifying with the aggressor?  By that measure, we should protect the feelings of poor ,little, Hitler or Mussolini as they were sick and didnot know what they were doing.

Yes, We do have right to tell BPDs that they are sick and hurt and cause damage to their loved ones by their behavior. We have right to tell them it's time to stop their cruel game and get help and try to fix their crazy patterns. Someone has to take the risk. Seems like Nons are so afraid to use their freedom of expression. Yes, Nons need to very careful, gentle and ensure their full safety before they tell BPDs that they need to get treatment.

If you want distance... .   you don't need to tell her she has BPD to get it. You can do it yourself.

Not responding. Not calling. Not emailing. Nothing. If YOU don't respond you have all the distance in the world.

If it's distance that you want to come of this... .   then really, you ARE hoping to get a reaction from her... .   you are hoping that she responds by going away... .   being "pushed" away.

But right now, you are doing the OPPOSITE of distancing yourself. Instead of investing time in your new relationship, you are investing it HERE, discussing your BPD ex and your plans to tell her about her mental illness. That's not distance.

thanks guys, so i'm still realizing things about myself as time passes by, and writing it all out here is helping. you guys are correct that using the letter for distance is totally misguided--and i knew this when writing it. honestly, i don't think that was my intention at all--however I always have to point out possible weaknesses like this in myself so i can explore them.

this is my latest revelation, and i feel closer to the truth. i'm going to let it sit for a while, but this feels "right", closest to my truth right now:

As of right now, I don't want to tell the ex about BPD, because I don't think she deserves my honesty or focus.

I wanted to write the letter to the "good" memory of the ex. For some reason everyone else cannot get past this idea that me telling her would be done to do harm her (your own personal projections?)--but I now know what my intentions were. Sadly, I think I am clinging to the idea of one day being friends with this person. With all of my friends I'm honest. I'm worried she may find out that I feel she has BPD from her ex-roomate who hates her now. When I am most quiet, and honest to myself, I wanted her to know now how I felt, even if it was difficult, b/c some time in the future, if it were possible to be friends then this would be out of the way. No stones left unturned.

And, now, after revisiting things and out of the brief "fog" of seeing only the "good" side, I don't know if I care to share my honesty and my truth with this person. You all are wrong, my weakness isn't that I want to hurt this person to feel better, never was, my weakness is wanting to stay connected and sacrificing myself through "honesty". At least, this is how I feel now, LOL.

I'm going to hold off for a bit and see how this sets in. It was nice though just knowing that this person doesn't hate me all the time, but i think the buck should stop there. She doesn't deserve my honesty, or attention or friendship.

wassup GreenMango! how do you always keep it so real?  :)

5 years together and 9 total knowing mine.  Been where you are at - its not easy.  Keep moving forward.  It gets easier.  Promise.

A wise person once told me a lot about the concept of "building yourself up by putting others down".

Goldy, why do you need to tell your ex she has BPD in order for you to feel "better" about yourself? The focus is still on her, isn't it? Same with NOT telling her--the focus is still on her. I understand--these people have a big impact on us, and shake us to our very foundations. But the only way to recuperate is to turn the focus back onto ourselves. And I also have been caught in the trap of saying "no--the rest of you don't understand! I really AM focused on me! Now let me tell you some more about this other person... .   "

$10 says if you tell her she has BPD she is going to let you know that YOU are the one with BPD. And this makes you feel "better"... .   how?

here's my own experience--my stbx husband of 18 years is diagnosed with bipolar w/psychotic features, ASPD, and NPD. He knows this. he knew it before I ever met him. He does treatment for it. A few weeks ago, he called the police on me to have me removed from my home because he thought he could have my property (that his name is not on) if the police took me to jail. I paid for a CD copy of his 911 call. On it, he tells the dispatcher "OK, she (he means me) stepped away for a minute--now I can talk more freely--she said I'm crazy and going off the rails!"

No, seriously--he KNOWS he's diagnosed bipolar. And yet he calls 911 to "tell on" me to the police for telling him he was starting to get manic again.

Not only are you not going to feel better--you are likely to escalate the situation. Especially if she isn't diagnosed, this is going to be a BS accusation to her, a "bring it on" challenge. It is immature to believe you can tell someone they are mentally ill--to "make yourself feel better"--and there will be no repercussions, they will just melt into the distance and your own discomfort will fade away, replaced by "truth and justice".

I'm an Aries--I know all about this quest for "truth". At 48 years old, I am FINALLY beginning to understand to keep it to myself. It starts out being about "trying to help", and stubborness makes it lead to "for myself".

I see no possible way this can help you feel better about yourself. If you already know the truth, so what? Why does telling it to the one person it is directed at make it more real somehow?

just saying... .   (been there, done that)

thanks for sharing your experience doubleAries, however I don't believe you read my last post very well.

i've been thinking about it more and yup, it's settled. i realize why i wanted to write that letter and I explained already, because i got weak and wanted to view her as a friend in the future, and couldn't live with the fact of having a friend without telling them something this big. i tell my friends the truth, eventually, all of them, that's just how i am. and, i just realized that i shouldn't be seeking any friendship from this person any more, and losing that friendship forever is the fear i'm working with.

i won't repeat it again b/c i've said it many times and it just doesn't seem to get through to some people posting. this isn't about retribution, and never was for me, ever.

i think a summary is in order, and i'd like to thank *all* posters for helping and throwing in their 2 cents!

1) some people have spilled the beans, perhaps expecting to help or to change the BPD in a certain way, and this doesn't work. in fact it came back and smacked them in the face, so, it's better in many cases to just keep things to yourself

2) other people have spilled the beans and feel ok about it, but only because they were ok with the fact that it didn't help the BPD at all and they were able to work through it

3) i've found out personally why i wanted to spill those beans, it was to be completely truthful and preserve a "friendship" that i just need to let completely go of

This is my first ever post on this board.

yay me!

I understand what Goldy is saying. before i fully understood how to deal with my ExGFBPD(even though I knew she had it) I decided to tell her... . as you can imagine that didnt go over well and she said she has only been having trouble the last two years. She then said she didnt need my help and to leave her alone... . there was one other occassion where we were arguing and I told her plain out she was borderline and she didnt rebut. of course she probably thinks she is just fine... . but yea... . Im two weeks in NC mode... .   I feel pathetic... . I still want her to call... . I know she is incapable of loving me... . its tough.

but I sometimes just want to just tell her plain out... . but I know she will twist it... .

Goldy, You are dealing with someone who is emotionally arrested at the age of 3-6. Mine talked to stuffed toys... .   and she sincerely believed they talked back to her. Turns out she'd made major life decisions based on these conversations. BPD makes a sufferer engage in whatever delusional/magical thinking they need to to get out of jail for free. That is to say, appear perfect in their distorted reality.

There's a lot of narcissism in BPD: mine Googled the DSM diagnostic criteria which she fits to a T and within an hour denied any of her behaviors matched them. She then told me that since she didn't match any of them, clearly I was delusional, and that the therapist I was talking to who felt she was BPD was a quack. It's hopeless until a pwBPD sees their problem for themselves, by themselves, and gets therapy. Which is all very unlikely to happen.

So if you want your ex to think you're delusional, go ahead and tell her. It makes no difference in the end and she'll probably enjoy the drama meantime of arguing with you about it. It sooths her object constancy issues to know she can still jerk your chain.  So I'd say take GreenMango's advice and just walk away without saying anything at all... .  

Mrclear you are indeed clear and I am learning a world from you. Thank you so much! Often we are touching upon the 'something' that we can't put into words or fully 'see' but time and time again you lay it all out plain as day.

This cycle you speak of was exactly the case with me. By the time I reached the retribution phase I knew it was over because the hatred, cruelty, raging and disgust I saw in him towards me was irrational and just abusive. It got worse with each episode. The retribution kept escalating and his rage seemed endlessly building like a fire that could never go out. It scared me... .   he scared me. In between each emotional dys-regulated episode there was guilt on his part and he would shower me with attention, 'love' and what I thought was consideration, kindness and a gentleness only to be hauled once again to the fiery pier where he was burning me alive with his words, cruelty and punitive measures. It was so twisted but somehow what he was doing to me kept me as his 'victim' enslaved. He had full control and he knew it so his retribution got worse with time. The more control he had over me the more punitive and abusive he became. When he would do this he wouldn't even allow me to touch him, speak to him and if he looked at me he would let me know he was thoroughly disgusted with me as though I were a wretched creature.

It was unlike anything I had ever been through in my life with anyone. I was utterly traumatized and the vestiges of PTSD are present which is what I'm working through. As for me I came to the conclusion that it would be utterly useless to tell him to get help or that he is suffering from what is a very serious thing. The retribution was there solely on account that I got 'too close' to him so he had to punish me. The more I loved him the harder he was on me and against me. If that is the case with love how much worse would he be if I tried telling him the truth about his illness? It would be utterly futile and if anything may trigger something more within him. I don't see an 'out' for him and telling him the truth certainly wouldn't provide him with the answer because a huge part of his illness is denial and projection. He lives moment to moment and the rest is a huge terrifying void that he has to do everything to deny and not think about. His life has to be consumed with things that will take him away and make him 'feel' something 'more' until that gets too close and too real.

So if his rage and hatred against me was what it was when he was showered with my love and wounded attempt at trying to understand the absurdly crazy, then what would it be if I tried to tell him the truth about the very illness that distorts the very fabric of his reality on a daily basis?

From what I have seen telling him would back fire and only serve to possibly make him worse. There is no happy ending to this story, no closure just me going on in my own life doing what I need to for myself.

One last thought on this just because it hit me in a nutshell and I couldn't add it to my other post.

If my ex found cause through his distorted version of reality to blame me for Everything than why would he suddenly believe me if I tried telling him the truth about his illness? If anything in his mind it would be confirmation that I was the one with the illness and he would feel vindicated. It would manifest itself by increasing the strength of his already very twisted reality and delusions confirming everything that he has been telling himself in order to safely sabotage his entire world.   

CryingWings,

Thanks. It's important to be able to understand and search for answers. We need these answers and explanations to move on and heal.

You talk alot about projection and that's excactly what it is! In the Fascination/Idealization phase the BPD projects your positive (and negative) traits onto themselves. Since they have no sense of a "true self" They become you. They supply all your needs and seem to read every wish from your lips. They are masters at this and that is why, in the beginning, you seem so perfect for eachother. You think you have found your soulmate... .   "However, this not an "act" they can maintain for long.

Their self-loathing and negative traits surface eventually and they punish you for getting close enough to see them. Now YOU become the projection-screen in which they can see themselves. They're basically projecting all their faults and there instabilities onto you. You become the reason for their unhappiness. (Devaluation/retribution).

Why? Because you're there and you got too close! This is not personal! It's the only way they can deal with their present situation and maintain their instability. This is very important for them! The hardest thing for us to realise is that we loved somebody who basically didn't exsist. You are detaching from a dream, a projection, someone who tranformed themselves into what you wanted them to be.

It's understandable that we are traumatized. It's healthy to go through our pain, relive the moments and feel. We need closure for ourselves, but we need to analyze the relationship for what it really was/wasn't... .   To really detach, you have to start forgiving yourself for letting someone put you through this. 

Sry, one correction:

I wrote: "You are detaching from a dream, a projection, someone who tranformed themselves into what you wanted them to be".

I meant: "You are detaching from a dream, a projection, someone who tranformed themselves into what THEY THOUGHT you wanted them to be".

I'm still learning every day... .    

just letting you all know that you are totally correct about the reactions to be expected from telling a BPD about BPD. and completely correct about how it could come back and hurt you.

when i started this thread i was looking ahead though. what if there is a day when it just didn't matter anymore to you? that's where i'd like to be, albeit not there altogether yet. and, while this sounds cold, i don't mean it to be. i would never say anything that i feel would endanger my exBPD, but at some point, if in any way she stayed part of my life, it's something i feel i would have to say. i've tried bringing up difficult subjects when we were in the r/s, and i'd wait until we were on really good footing thinking it was a good time to talk about difficult subjects, WRONG  lol.

but just, if you can, for a sec, if possible, imagine, if it were safe for them, and safe for you, just not really giving a damn about their reaction. being ok if they go on a rant and call you crazy back. knowing that they will be over it in 20 min any way, and you would too :)

i posted this thread in L3 for a reason, i looked at the levels and tried to determine where i was at and where i wanted to go. this thread was about personal strength and personal freedom, inner truth; and, what i've found through writing for me this thread was about finding out my own fear and understanding it.

i don't really feel so much like saying anything to my ex about BPD right now. but it's not because i'm worried about her reaction, or my reaction to her reaction. it's because i really really don't want to care about it any more at all... .   but i know that a little part of me still does. i don't feel she deserves this much of my attention or consideration. and, i'm keeping my fingers crossed i stay strong enough not to give it, in any way 

Hi Goldy,

From your last post, I have to say that whatever you decide is best for you to do now or in the future, 100% do what YOU need to do.  I think to have anything additional be unresolved after ending a relationship of this kind, would be hard to get over.  Do what you have to do, what is right for you, either way, it is YOUR life and your actions.  Reading what you wrote I could see how one may need to be true and honest to themselves and resolve any issues they may need to and that may include saying to someone that should they want help they may want to look into the following areas as their behaviors are quite similar.

Just wanted you to know that now is the time to think of what you need and give that to yourself.  Peace of mind I think is a wonderful state to be in.  I want us all to have that going through all of our caretaking, we should at least be able to have our own peace 

This is an excellent post, mrclear.

I'm NC again (as always, her choice) after countless recycles. I now recognize I've been detaching for some time without actually realizing it. Sorta the drip, drip drip of falling out of love with someone, yet still so caught up in the Ex's chaotic life and insanity. I didn't fully see it, but it had gotten to the point where it wasn't about love anymore. It was like I was caught up in some terrible vortex I couldn't break free of. Misplaced loyalty, misguided friendship, unearned devotion, obligation, the memory of once loving her so completely... .   It's going to take time to unravel, but jeesh, loving her has been a nightmare.

The only thing I know for sure, at this point, is that I will never allow myself to be used and abused like that again.

Remember that the udBPD wants to live stable in his/her instability. You'll get pulled into this faster than you can say... .  well... .  , "BPD".  :) It's takes a while to figure out what is happening to you. You start to rationalize and you're constantly trying to fight your way back to the idealization-phase. Since the udBPD ultimately needs conflict and pain to survive, you never will.

When we start to react to, become aware of and, god forbid, critisize their instability we are devalued and brainwashed into thinking that it must all be our fault. The end of the r/s is only a matter of time. The time that we allow to let someone do this to us... .  

mrclear

Hey there Goldy... .  

I understand clearly what you were saying about wanting to tell her about your suspicions about BPD... .    My therapist told me when I had that same thought, to instead of writing her a letter or having a conversation with my sis about her issues, that I write a letter focused on myself and my boundaries... .  because no matter what I wanted to tell her, she was never going to change or receive it correctly, but that I had a responsibility to myself to clarify my boundaries and my stance.  That way, once and for all, I was able to say what I expected and what I would tolerate with complete clarity, and her behavior was on her... .  

I mailed her the letter with aboslutely no expectations attached.  I think that is the key to any communication like that with a personality disordered individual... .  attach no expectations.  Keep making decisions based on what is best for you!

thank you debbiejoe much for this post. i think this sums it up perfectly for me and is saying a lot of what i was attempting to communicate in this post. i know when i first found out about BPD i went through a phase of wanting to understand it, the why's/how's about this other person. but at some point i wanted to focus on moving forward, on my own needs, especially if there were to be any communication with this person going forward. i think a letter focused on finding and defining our own personal boundaries is an excellent exercise and example of self-love, self-understanding necessary to move ahead. it's restorative in a way, because our boundaries have been broken so many times in so many ways by the r/s with BPD. this is a great idea and something i will do if any communication continues. thanks for sharing!

Years ago, after we split the first time, I did a bunch of online research to try to make sense of it all, & stumbled upon BPD.

I'm no shrink, but she hit most if not all of the criteria pretty darn hard. Others who became involved with her would agree, as well. Over the years I've been involved with people who probably exhibited more than their fair share of traits, more than your average bear. Were they BPD? Who knows. But in comparison, this one really took the cake.


In any event, about 6 months after we split, I had sent her a quick email (no reply from her, but wasn't expecting one)... .  Basically told her that an uncle of mine had been diagnosed years ago as BPD (truth), and that maybe she might want look into that... . something to that degree.

At the time, knowing her, she probably thought I was talking about myself. 

Then again, by that point... . ?  my-issues


However, years later when we became reacquainted, she did on her own acknowledge & admit that she used to manipulate some guys I knew that she became involved with years prior. A bit of self-awareness on her part? Who knows. She's intelligent & curious enough.


But you know what? I'm sort of glad I indirectly hinted about it. Somebody had to. She knew she was "off" somehow, & was struggling with it. At least now it had a name, & it was something that could be looking into further on her own, should she so choose. I think she might have, and that's definitely a start if somebody wants to get better.

I sort of liken it to a physical ailment. Years ago, for example, I got a ganglion cyst in my wrist a few times. The 1st time it happened, I was a bit fre@ked out. Somebody (non-doctor) told me what it was. Whoa, is that what that is? Other people get them? I then read up on it, and even eventually had a doctor examine. Learned to monitor it, how to help prevent, what different treatment options there were, etc.

What's the difference? 


That said, with pwBPD, I think it's an area that should be treated with much consideration & tact.

If I had to mention it to her these days, I'd try to do it differently/better.

But I would definitely do it again. If it's a clear-cut case, I do think it's worth the gamble, for their sake, as well as for those in their lives.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to see lots of healthy people in this world. :)


Of course: boundaries, boundaries... .  

delgato,

the difference is you don't blame it on somebody else when you have a ganglion cyst 

Doublearies, that always brings up for me why bipolar people can accept a diagnosis or those that are severely depressed but BPD's can't be told because they can't handle the ame for their behaviors.

The part of the brain that is different for BPD's than those with mental illness must be quite different. If they ever could treat that part with a medication designed to ellicit understanding, it would save so many from this terrible life long condition.

this is actually a really good question. and, i could see that perspective that a person has so much self hatred that they refuse to take blame or acknowledge it to avoid dealing with feeling even lower about themselves... .  but, i don't think this is the case all the time.

for posters reading this thread--how many times has someone with BPD actually come to you and *apologize* for their behaviors? think about when you may have had a recycle, even though they may not have apologized totally, they know how to say the right things and make it appear as if they've changed--meaning that they know how to *appear* to take some responsibility for their actions; but of course they only do this when they need something from you.

if your ex wants you back in their life, all the sudden the integrity starts flowing and they'll make you believe they are realizing things about themselves and changing. if they don't really care at the time about having you in their life, they take absolutely no responsibility. this isn't indicative of a person who isn't aware of their actions or responsibilities. i think they know what's going on, and choose to admit it or not depending on if they need something from you or not.

it's complicated i know. for example, my exBPD told me a story after our breakup (we were still in contact for a while). she tells me that her good friend just broke up with her long time boyfriend. and she was calling the (now ex) boyfriend a complete a$$hole b/c apparently he would discuss some new relationship fling he was having with her friend. this hurt her friend hearing about a new love in her exes life--so my exBPD was saying "yeah this guy is an ass for talking about all of that to her". i was floored! it had been less than a month since my exBPD and i were living together, and she had a new bf all the sudden and took every opportunity to throw it in my face. showing me presents he bought her, telling me how great they were together and trusted each other, hinting at amazing sex with each other, all done with a smile and with full awareness and malice. i brought this up, not argumentatively but calmly without trying to provoke her... . "you know, you actually did the same thing to me. but it was even worse because we still lived together. and i remember telling you how much it hurt me to hear these things, but after this you told me even more... .  " she responded by saying what i said wasn't true, that somehow our situation was "different" and shut down the conversation with the expert tactic she loved to use of saying she didn't want to argue (even though i was totally calm).

anywayz, months later when she wanted me back, well, she never completely apologized, but she did acknowledge that she did some wrong back then. but see, this is just b/c she wanted something from me at the time. all the sudden she's willing to admit some wrongdoing.

no, i don't think it's always a pwBPD is incapable of processing their own blame, rather they purposefully choose to ignore it until they need it to reel you in. maybe not all the time, but sometimes this is the case.

I asked my exBPDgf to never contact me again she's pretty good about NC & since that request there's been NC for almost three months.  But I'm sure at some point she'll make contact again.  I fully intend to ask her if she's ever heard of BPD and will let her know she exibits almost all of the symptoms.  If she denies or gets angry I will simply state that I had asked for NC for a reason and until she addresses her BPD we will remain NC. 

This acomplishes two things in my mind: ONE, at some level they know something's wrong with them and a little prodding doesn't hurt and at some point they may finally try to figure out what it is and if they do get help then that's a good thing. 

TWO, by telling her about BPD it renforces the NC boundery that I've established and I never have to deal with her again in my life.  If she does go get treatment and therapy I know it's something that takes years to treat therefore I should not have to see her for a few years and by then if she's somewhat normal why would she contact me and if she did I know I'm dealing with someone who is aware and trying to help themselves.  Either way I'm out of the picture and that's just fine with me.

"I don't have a ganglion cyst -- *you* have the ganglion cyst!" :)


Yes, a little humor can be good medicine for one's soul. :)

Just left my therapist I go about 4xs a year since my divorce 2 1/2 years ago.  I only recently found out about BPD he's actually treated many BPD's over the years and that he's never seen one of them overcome their disorder even the one's he had for over 4 years.  He also said and I quote don't f&@k up and allow any contact EVER!  So I will ignore and stay away from her the rest of my life. 

delgato,

If I *do* have a ganglion cyst, it's because of YOU! Look at what you did to me! lol

Seriously, projection is just one of the symptoms.

whereisthezen---My stbx husband is bipolar. Bipolar is a lot more than just severe depression. There is also the intense manic phase (and there are actually quite a few versions of bipolar involving severity). A pre-frontal cortex area of the brain is involved that very frequently (around 60 some % of the bipolar patients) causes them to have something called "anosognosia"--they lack insight into their condition. This is also pretty common in schizophrenia (and also happens in some stroke patients and Alzheimers patients).

Anyhow, stbx is bipolar 1 with psychotic features (paranoid delusions), and ASPD and NPD driven by the bipolar (secondary problems, not comorbid conditions). He has anosognosia issues. There are times that he accepts his diagnosis, but only on the surface. If you question him about HOW he knows, it completely unravels. He knows he was delusional in the past, but when asked how he knows, he actually still remembers it the way he experienced it (just like all of us do), so doesn't actually believe he was having a problem (like he explained to me once--it wouldn't be a delusion if you didn't believe it). When he is actually delusional (or even just really manic) there is no telling him he is delusional.

In short, many bipolar/schizophrenic people do NOT accept their diagnosis. This seems to be fairly common in most mental illness problems. I do not think anosognosia is the issue in personality disorders, but obviously something similar. probably has more to do with the formidable defense mechanisms they have in place.

DA,

Great post thanks for the information.

I'm familiar with Bip, my aunt had sever lifelong Bip, lithium was the only thing that helped.  Sometimes denial but most of the time she'd yell yeah somethings wrong with me what are you going to do about it.

I think you nailed my own forming thoughts on the Bip/BPD dx issue:

"probably has more to do with the formidable defense mechanisms they have in place."

I know PFC issues from injuries have mental difficulties, but same injuries as BPD and still a BPD would go down fighting tooth and nail that its you not them.  I do believe the "defense mechanisms" you describe is the difference. One extra trait makes the difference.

i just looked up anosognosia doubleAries, thanks for that i hadn't heard of that term before. and like whereisthezen i agree with you that it's less anosognosia and perhaps has more to do with defense mechanisms. i wonder how much high vs. low functioning BPD plays into this also. i was with a pretty high functioning person, and so i feel she was aware, at least on some conscious level that what she was doing was not "ok". i'm sure lots of it she was perfectly content with too, but still i caught her plenty of times telling 'little' lies or doing manipulative things that required full awareness of her behaviors. no anosognosia (ha, i just wanted to say that, try saying it fast "no anosognosia"  :)

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anosognosia

I DON'T HAVE ANOSOGNOSIA---YOU DO!  lol

More seriously---there is also evidence that each psychotic break that someone with severe mental illness suffers causes more and more brain damage--just like a person who undergoes multiple strokes.

This link I am Not Sick I Don't Need Help! (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61716.0) is to a book review that a psychiatrist wrote about anosognosia and mental illness. It is fascinating reading. He also outlines how to deal with anosognosia, and the reason it is reviewed here on bpdfamily.com's is because it may also be a pretty good approach to dealing with defense mechanisms such as the denial exhibited by BPD's. Clearly there is a difference between the BPD who is fully aware of the manipulations they are engaging in, and a schizophrenic who believes the TV announcer is talking specifically to him, but perhaps the ultimate outcome is similar (as far as others dealing with it). One big difference being that the BPD can overcome their denial in therapy, but someone with psychiatric anosognosia cannot. For many stroke patients, eventually the anosognosia fades. But this is rarely the case in severe mental illness--it generally worsens. But when someone else doesn't understand anosognosia, they accuse the person with severe mental illness of being in denial. I think there is a clear difference.

I was just curious, if a BPD has a psychotic break by being triggered (thinking that his partner was unfaithful) and in his state physically assaulted her but couldn't remember afterwards... .  would this be an indicator that he could lose it again? What does this indicate with regards to his BPD if he never had an occurrence like this in the past?

are you sure this never happened before in his past? the reason i say this is b/c i had a big shift in awareness after finding out about BPD but only after the r/s ended. i could see history through a different lens. for example, my exBPD told me that the ex she had before me cheated on her with a mutual friend of theirs... .  sounded really messy. and randomly a friend of theirs mentioned that he had thrown a chair through a window or something when they had broken up. i was just like, wow, she'll never have to worry about me acting that way. and then in our r/s whenever she acted super-jealous or with abandonment issues, i blamed this on the fact that her last r/s ended so terribly. i used to think it was this past r/s that was the issue--but now i see it wasn't. see, she told her friend that she was sure that I was cheating on her; having no evidence of this. i see the past in a different lens and i doubt at all her past bf cheated on her. and he prolly threw that chair because he couldn't deal with being treated so low having done nothing to deserve it. the issue in our r/s had nothing to do with recent events in her life and everything to do with a disorder she's had for decades. i think our r/s was just perhaps a small oasis of relief from her normal state of short term r/s with terrible breakups. all of this is to say, if your ex doesn't 'remember' assaulting you, how many other times do you think he's forgotten about? one thing i had to realize that everything that happened in my r/s with xBPDgf was that all the bad stuff that occurred was *normal* for her; and from what i can gather was not as bad with me as it was with other bf both before *and* after from the stories i hear of her behavior.

CryingWings you mentioned before about how you were strong many times amongst bad behavior from your ex; and i'm thinking sometimes this ability to keep it real with them while not completely exploding and losing it like many normal people would do in the same situation is what elongated and deepened the r/s. i get a sense that even though you probably did some nasty things in retaliation that your own inner strength meant that your reactions could have defused the situations so that now there is still some remnant there which makes him want to (selfishly) keep you as a friend. all of this is to say, and i'm not sure of your situation, but it may be safe to assume that whatever behavior you saw out of him was actually his *best* behavior. and that if he forgot assaulting you in that way that more than likely he's forgotten doing much worse both before and after your r/s. i can see this pattern in my ex. as bad as i got treated, i know others have gotten it worse... .

Thanks Goldylamont for sharing that because I am having trouble seeing clearly since we have reconnected in communication. The thing that really affects me is that often he seems to 'see' things more clearly than the people all around me.

Apart from his rages, paranoia and unstable mood shifts he is one of the most rational people I know with an acute understanding of human nature. That is what really screws with my head because on the flip side of that is the extreme opposite.

I don't know how someone can have so much deep understanding into the world at large and people while simultaneously responding with scrutinizing paranoia for fear that I will do something to give him an indication that he can't trust me. That is not even to mention his many symptoms on a daily basis yet he has this profound depth, rationale and understanding that surpasses most people I know who are non's.

I see what you are saying however and know that clearly for someone to respond in such a psychotic manner than the likelihood of that undercurrent always being there is rather high in someone suffering this illness.

It is very difficult because he doesn't lie and never did. That is one of the most important things to him is never to lie. The difficult thing about that is that you get the other extreme which is 'the brutal truth' and that is on the other side of the pendulum which is in itself and can be a form of abuse. At least it feels like an attack when it happens.

We discussed more last night and he told me that he wanted to let us both go to give us a chance. He wanted to maintain a friendship but then admitted that would be impossible considering what he feels. It would either be all or nothing. I know this all must seem so strange considering my past with him but why then do I feel so safe with him and how he loves me even in light of what occurred?

Since the calls I have relapsed and am trying to find my way through again not knowing what that looks like for me at the moment, just trying to figure things out anew.

i know, if they didn't have such a great other side, why would we deal with them in the first place, right?  *)


i hope this isn't too harsh CW, but i just don't think this is true. i'm sure he portrays himself as mr. honest but honesty doesn't feel like what you've experienced. like i said before, honesty may bring pain or it may feel amazing, but honesty always leads to healing. hmm, but lies? Lies are just like honesty, both are dreams; lies may bring pain or they may feel amazing just like the truth; but lies always lead to pain. what you're feeling now probably feels really good, much better than the painful state of NC, but you will know if it's a lie or the truth by looking at where it is going. where is this leading you? if it's not a good place then it's a lie, he's a liar, and you are complying. even if you do, know you're awesome, stay safe, love yourself, do your best, learn, stay aware. and if you slip to repeat the past keep as much of yourself in tact this time, learn from what happened before, don't let it go so far this time.

i want to add though that as a woman dealing with someone who was physically abusive before, i am alarmed at this. i can only imagine it getting worse. i didn't have to worry about physical abuse so much from my xBPDgf, she made up for it with hersexisaweapon. but, CW i don't know what to say other than please be careful ok? please don't endanger yourself.

last but not least on lying CW, i'm willing to bet there are lots of 'little' lies being told by him all the time, but b/c BPD'ers know so masterfully how to do this you wouldn't even notice. when in the r/s with my exBPDgf, i never suspected her of lying. afterwards though, i started noticing itty bitty cracks in her image of honesty. i saw her lying to her mother... . "oh the new guy i'm seeing, we met while walking dogs... . ", they met at a bar. little lies. she used to keep in touch with this guy she used to date but who lived in Europe, she was so 'honest' during our r/s and told me that he would tell her that he was still in love with her blah blah, finally i asked her to put an end to it, and she did tell him to stop contacting her (she showed me emails). i felt good, praised her honesty. but, i now know that she was reaching out to him and initiating contact, leading him on, only to say 'stop contacting me' and showing this to me much later. little lies. they're very good at this. since seeing the little lies it's easier for me to understand that really, the whole big picture is just a big lie. if she lies to her mother, surely she lies to me and everyone else. as you build your awareness, you'll see through his cloud of 'honesty', promise. you're quick enough now to start catching a little one from him, and when you do you'll start seeing lots more, and then you're like "ooh, this is just the way you are all the time and with everyone! ooh. i get it now" lol. didn't start with you, won't end with you, it just is


please trust yourself and accept this as truth. it felt like an attack because it was an attack. if you are allowing yourself to get closer to this person again it's vital to establish your own truths and your own boundaries. your anger is your friend, your protector, telling you to stop letting others break your boundaries. we have to honor this anger by finding constructive ways to allow it to establish and keep our boundaries in tact. don't doubt yourself ever when you feel attacked, because you are being attacked, ok? honor your anger or sadness by accepting the message they are desperately trying to give you "you are being hurt, you are in danger, i'm here to tell you to get away". just like pain tells us to take our hand away from a flame, and our hand obeys without thought. we have to re-learn to trust what our emotions are saying, and act accordingly.


because he is smart, and intelligent and manipulative. you feel safe now because he's figured out what you wanted and needed--how? well, b/c you told him that for you it would be impossible for you to maintain a friendship, that you would need all or nothing. so now, he's mirroring you. using exactly what you said, and whallah!, all the sudden he feels the exact same way. that's why you feel safe, b/c he appears to feel the same way you do. must feel like you guys are so connected, i can totally understand this... .  but i think you know this isn't true. he's mirroring the deep truths you told him, when you were being completely honest. he's not being honest, unless he's been talking a lot about taking responsibility for his behaviors, admitting he has a problem and has a list of things he's planning to do to make a change (and even then... .  ). his 'forgetting' about abusing you is the nugget of truth to hold onto. i'm sure he's saying a lot of things, but what is he truly doing?

we were talking before CW and had mentioned that it's important to look at a pwBPD's actions, not their words. what real life actions has this person taken that would support you feeling safe? his words aren't powerful b/c they aren't his words--they're your words (for now).


i couldn't imagine being in your shoes CW, having the one person you wish so deeply to be true telling you everything you wish you could hear from them with integrity. i hope you know that the things in here i'm saying to you is not me being judgmental, i know very well that i could be in the same position and then would need your outside perspective. others here will have great advise on what to do, i just want to hopefully offer some understanding or perspective on what's going on and then you can do what you already knew was best, but what is so damn hard to carry out  :'(  just know that i recognize i don't know you, or him and that these are just my thoughts, and that i hope they help  :) and that i may need the same from you at some point!

The exact same things happened to me... .  my ex told me 2 out of her 3 bfs had cheated on her... .  I told her I would never do that, and she knew i was sincere... .  thats my downfall... .  im loyal to a fault... .  esp when i get attached. Now, I wonder if it was just her crazy imagination thinking they cheated on her and breaking up with them for that? WOW.

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