BPDFamily.com

H starts his verbal assaults - sometimes out of nowhere because he's been "daydreaming" in a negative way about some perceived indignation from job, kids, me, traffic, etc.

Not only do I not respond, but if I attempt to responsd, I'm immediately shut down and told to "just listen, don't talk".   The raging kicks up more, then more, then more.  If I try to institute a "time out" or try to get away, then I'm told that I'm "frustrating" him.

I do think the raging is their method of soothing, kind of like hitting a punching bag.  H used to golf more (before his hip surgery), and hitting balls off the tee was therapeutic for H.  On many days that he couldn't actually play golf, he'd go to the golf range and hit a few buckets of balls, work out at the gym, or play raquetball.  When he was a child, he'd play baseball and go to the batting cages.   I think that action of powerfully hitting something was relief from some of his pain.

In recent years, he hasn't been able to do those things (surgery about 7 years ago) so raging has markedly increased. He also started crying more (before, he rarely ever cried.)  

So, I can see why he more frequently resorts to raging now that his golfing is more limited.  His drinking also significantly increased.

Now that we're living separately (oh how blissful this is!), I do wonder what he's doing with his anger.  Would he be targeting other people, or maybe just drinking more?  Just an idle curiousity.  I can't imagine that he can go from raging maniac to calm coping person just by living elsewhere simply because "life's bumps" really upset him.  


As for H's worst symptoms, they are:

Raging

Painting our younger child and me black

alcoholism

Not allowing me (or anyone) to respond to his accusations, rants, etc.

Name-calling

Blaming

Very immature emotions, reasoning skills, lack of common sense, etc.

Another "worst symptom" is the lying.  H does think he's telling the truth most of the time, but his memory is awful. 

There must be something  about BPD that affects certain types of memory.  Often we do think that he thinks he's telling the truth.  The fact that he flips out when his memory is challenged makes me think that he had this problem as a young person and frequently became upset when people would challenge his memory of things.  He really flips out. 

I too believe that BPD affects the memory, your post and avatar reminded me of a time I and my wife went to see a marriage councilor: She wanted a Yorkshire Terrier and I said no, we already had a Pug. She eventually got her Yorkshire Terrier puppy and looked after him for all of 2 weeks, after that she had nothing to do with him and I have taken care of him since. When we saw the councilor she said told him that it was me who wanted the Yorkshire Terrier and that she had never wanted him.

I think the raging is a compulsion, their feelings are  hurt by real or imagined reasons and because feelings = reality to them they want to hurt someone back.  I think they do feel better while raging, it is a release for them.

Sadwife

Oh yes, there is no that BPD raging is therapeutic to them.  For the rest of us... .   not so much.  They feel relief and never give a thought to how their anger affects those it is directed toward.  When my son rages, I often say nothing.  He just wants to talk and me to listen.  I wait for him to ask for my input (if he does), otherwise I do not validate.  He sees that as patronizing and fuel for the fire.

After years of this, I have learned to just let it go.  Anger, insecurity, frustration and feelings of victimization produce their rage.  They cannot own it, so they project it.  My son rages by phone which eliminates the immediate physical violence factor.  I do not think he trusts himself around me when he is angry.

 

We can either let it go or attempt to set boundaries for this behavior.  I think there may be different answers for different situations, and we need to do what works for us.  BUT remember above all else ... .   this is mental illness and the playing field is NOT level.

Its possible his symptoms are lessened because you are not living together. pwBPD are triggered by those closest to them.

Does he rage on the phone and in person? Its important you have your own personal boundaries around this - staying/engaging/responding is reinforcing bad behavior.

I think this is a serious issue that many of us Nons face.  The pwBPD rages, gets their anger out, but then they become angry again when the target of their anger is still hurt or upset from the raging, name-calling, etc that they've endured.  They don't have any empathy for that. 


Are pwBPD "mommy-fixated" in some way?  I don't mean that they cling to their mothers, but they want that "mommy-care" from certain people.

Certainly yes, to a point.  H is like a very small child, he can be distracted.  He's distracting himself with work, TV, the gym and booze. 

Right now, his routine is "go to work, go to the gym, eat, watch TV/surf net, drink-then-sleep."  On weekends, it's "sleep in, go to the gym, nap, watch TV/surf net, stay up VERY late, then sleep."

As long as nothing triggers a rage (no traffic, no "oopsies", no lines at the stores, etc) he can be rather fine.  If he does encounter any of those, he's probably drinking more. 

I do know that he's upset that his children want nothing to do with him.  He's been whining, "I've always been a good dad (ha!), I've worked so hard to provide for them, and this is the thanks I get."   (this is his mantra to anyone he encounters... .   of course, those who've never seen his rages have been convinced that I've "turned the boys against" him.  ha ha... .   not.  )

My sister warns me that at some point, he's going to become very upset because no one is taking care of him.  Even if he tries to find a new relationship, since he's only attracted to professional/educated women, he's not likely going to find someone who'll care for him as he wants.





He's actually has said some of his worst things on the phone.  During phone calls he's blamed me for the recent death of one of our dogs who died from a sudden onset of a severe auto-immune disease.  He also blamed me because our outdoor cat is now missing.  He said that I killed them both by neglect . (What a joke, I'm the most devoted pet parent.  When another cat died a few years ago, H complimented me about how devoted I was to that cat during her last two weeks... .   never leaving her side.  When she was hospitalized, I was at the vet during all office hours sitting with her.  Of course, I was the same way when H had his hip surgery and during his 2 month recovery.  DEVOTED.  I did EVERYTHING from helping him toilet, bathe, dress, change his surgery dressings, bring him his food, meds, etc.  BTW... .   I got NO credit for any of that, and a few months later H actually claimed that I did NOTHING for him.  Thankfully our kids witnessed my 24/7 care of him and "set him straight".  Again, the memory of a pwBPD is really faulty when it comes to their emotional neediness.




I completely agree.  The problem is that when I'm away he views that as "abandonment" and really lashes out and makes the craziest accusations (adultery, treating others better than how I treat him, etc).

I thought that I posted a response to this but I'm not seeing it.

My H has done similar things.  We once bought a car for our older son, H totally made the decision, and a couple months later claimed that I "made" him buy the car.  Thankfully our older son was present when H made this new accusation and son set him straight that H decided to buy that particular car.  

SadWife, hearing those types of accusations are hurtful I know. I lived with my partner and found it really hard to "extract" myself from the blame etc.

It's harder to process and handle it when you are in it.

I had some very good advice from my therapist at the time - not engaging is the first thing. Not to take it personally and internalize it because it would impact on my daily functioning. It would twist me into a ball and when around it long enough you become resentful, bitter and impatient not only toward my partner but to those around me - this is not a good place to find ourselves in and does not help the relationship or us.

I can understand its tough, and being in separate houses is a good thing for now because it means you can work on your own boundaries and healing you too.



For reconciliation to even have a chance, our side of the fence needs some mending! We play a role.

Without working on us - we can not help to better the relationship. Hubby is not going to change however we can work on us, the way we view our own situation, the way we communicate which in turn will help the relationship. We need find some new ways because it sounds like this way is not working.

The relationship is suffering right now and it sounds like you are too – to rebuild that we also need to work through some of the resentment/hurt/sadness that comes from being the target of accusations. How are you working through this? We can only mask it for so long until we blow – this is not healthy.

hit

"How to deal with the lashing out and BPDH's worst symptom(s)" - There are a bunch of lessons at the top of the Undecided Board.

Our partners are emotionally immature – this is a fact and not one we can change – which also means that we need to exercise more emotional maturity, pick up the slack. We can spend a lifetime trying to change our partners – if we want to make things better we need to put in some work and learn acceptance.

We need to step out of the conflict cycle.

We have a variety of tools available to us – boundaries if he calls you drunk, don’t engage “I will talk to you when you calm down: talk to you later”.

Name-calling and blaming

Arguing - don't engage (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=106107.0).

Stop accusations and blaming (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=87204.0)

Communication tools

TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth (https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict)

Communication tools (SET, PUVAS, DEARMAN) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0)

Communication with our BPDSO: The power of 3... .   Consistency/Validation (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=83207.0)

TOOLS: Stop Invalidating Your Partner (or the BPD person in your life)  (https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating;all)

Reinforcing good behavior, positive reinforcement  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=103822.0#top)

Thanks for the links.  I'll go thru them.

I do say that I'll talk to him when he's calmed down, but he claims that I say that to "frustrate him" because he wants to RAGE right then. 

Sadwife

Oh yes, I think that is true.  He is angry NOW... .   later or tomorrow does not exist.

Yes, they definitely live in the moment.  but, once their own anger passes, they have no patience for the fact that the target of their rages may not yet be ready to reconcile.



I've noticed this as well.  If while H is raging, if I respond with simple, "yes," "I hear you," "can you clarify," etc, it only angers him more.

Validation doesn't work all the time - it definitely doesn't work in a rage.  That's a better time for a time out.  Sometimes nothing works except letting the person calm them self down.


Other times our validation isn't really validation - it's token phrases.  I've done it.  I'm sure all of us have done it. 

The I hear you, yeah I understand, etc are pretty token.  Validation is about reflective listening and acknowledging another person's feelings.

So maybe a sample of when you are trying to validate before the rage situation and we can walk through it with you could help?

A simple one you've experienced:

Husband:

Me:

Husband:

Me:

since I've recorded many of H's rages, I'm able to give you actual dialogue.

(husband has locked his keys in the car and I've called the auto club to open the car. H begin raging because he's upset with himself, and he's intoxicated - which I don't realize at first.)

Husband:  you're supposed to be my friend.

Me: I am your friend.  You asked me to call the auto club and I did.

Husband:  when I tell you to stay in the house you stay in the house.

Me:  The auto club dispatcher asked me to check to see if the tow truck driver had arrived.

Husband:  I told you to stay in the house and don't open the door.  (then just random babble raging and insults .  BTW... .   my attorneys heard this audio tape and were absolutely shocked... .   and they've heard everything... . )

Me:  (no longer saying anything because nothing I say is getting processed.)

First I've got to say this - trying to talk to someone while they are drunk and expecting them to have any remote understanding is expecting a pig to fly.  A drunk person and a rage episode is even better suited to practicing boundaries.


You can't talk it out of them, or most anybody when they are upset like this, when they are raging.   

What about your conversations with him that don't involve a rage episode?  My experience these things escalate, they start small with perceived or real slights and build.  What about the times before they get to critical mass in anger?

From the tools that Clearmind linked above which one looks like the first small step that you want to try?

Well, I was NOT aware that he had had anything to drink until afterwards.  Since I had been with him the entire evening except for his very brief trip to a very nearby store to buy a couple of snack items for us to enjoy that night, I was unaware that he had also purchased some booze and had likely "chugged" some it in the car before coming in (which caused the distraction of locking his keys in the car.)


While I can see the JADE aspect and see that I should have said something else (but I was completely caught off-guard), I do not think I should have said, ""That must feel awful that I'm not your friend," because then H would have said, "see, you admit that you're not my friend.  See, you're admitting that you don't treat me like a friend.  You don't treat me as well as you treat your friends."  And then a whole new argument would ensue, PLUS, during future rages, H would then repeatedly bring up the fact that I had used the words, "I'm not your friend." 

I can see saying something like, "it must feel awful that you think I'm not your friend."

I actually have done that when we're at home (he has complained to his T's that I do this to "frustrate" him).  In this case I couldn't have done that.  We were in a hotel room with 2 dogs.  If I had tried to leave w/o the dogs, he would have used the dogs as blackmail (which he's done - so I never leave him alone with our dogs).  I wouldn't have been able to take a taxi with my dogs.  I couldn't even just walk out of the hotel with the dogs because it was night and the area isn't known to be safe at night.

Because I was limited to what I could do, I just went to bed and covered my head with a pillow to drown out some of his rantings. 

I get how difficult this is.  I spent the last year together carrying 40 bucks, a spare key and my cell phone in a pocket almost every time I went anywhere with mine.  Clothes with pockets became a staple because I never knew what was going to happen - a rage, a tantrum, a disappearing act, a flurry of insults in the car - and most of them at the most inoppurtune times.  

Shoot I had to get out of the car at a stop light so I could walk home.  

You can say something better than I put together.  "it must feel awful to feel like I'm not your friend." He could interpret it differently.  If he gets upset and the insults come its really important you don't engage that with any jade and put some space in there.  Which should be easier since you aren't living together at the moment.

Take a look at the validation and Jade workshop.  From your other thread it sounds like you two still communicate about the kids and other things.  Maybe start there.  It's not about whether he thinks his feelings are true as much as he feels heard.  

We can increase the conflict easily.  It doesn't take much when someone struggles with emotional instability.

PS his drinking is a problem - could be the most pressing.  I don't have to tell you this.  :)o you have support?  Alanon or a therapist.  

Yes I do have a T and I do go to AlAnon with my older son. 

The drinking definitely makes things a LOT worse.  What used to only happen maybe 1-2 times per year became a weekly, sometimes daily occasion. 

When he moved out, he loudly declared that he had to move out because being around me made him want to drink (ha ha... .   lie).  He's painted me black, black, black so being around me upsets him.  He says that it upsets him to see me happily going about my day while he's miserable.  He says that it's not fair. 

I know for sure that he's still very hard drinking and he's been gone for over a month.  I know that he didn't go to work today because he was too hungover from last night's drinking.

Having a support system is essential.  What does alanon teach about how to approach the drinking?


I found this to be a trigger too.  It points out a lot of uncomfortable stuff to person who has BPD.  Rejection in difference and enmeshment need.  Sameness is safety.  Doesn't mean you have to change your good mood for him.

Totally validate his feelings on stuff like this - it doesn't mean you change your plans or happiness.  Just that you hear him.  It could help.

Alanon doesn't want famiy members to "approach the drinking".  The motto is:  I didn't cause it, I can't control it, I can't cure it.

I do validate H when he says that it upsets him when I'm happy, etc.  He's angry that I wake up at a decent time and am ALWAYS in a good mood. 

He's angry that in the morning, I "pop" out of bed in a good mood, and immediately start on my day.  (he's also angry that I'm always in a good mood.)   He's angry that I feel good enough to have a little fun with the pets.  He's angry that I don't feel tired all the time (He's often hungover so he doesn't feel good in the morning)

He's also angry that I (according to him) will live longer than he will because (according to him) he's going to die first because of the booze and a heart issue. 

Oh, and he's also very angry that I don't have any facial wrinkles and he has many. 

I do try to validate him, but my T says that I have to be careful because I'm spending too much energy on "soothing" him.   One day H was in bed all day brooding about how unfair it is that I'm healthy, not an alcoholic, etc.  I would come in the room occasionally, massage his head and shoulders, and try to validate his feelings.  My T said that I should not be soothing him.

Your T is right.  There is a fine line between soothing and enabling.  He may perceive this as an excellent way to get your attention.  This means on one hand you are telling him this behavior is wrong and on the other hand it is ok.

HE is making himself miserable.  He has to own it and only HE can change it.

BPD and alcohol are a toxic combination.  Alcohol is a depressant and it fuels his

depression and anger.  It also contributes to his dysregulation.

He needs to get the message it is not acceptable and you are done with it.  If he wants to drink and terrorize, he has to get help and/or get out.  Then ignore his requests for attention and comfort.

You have a life too and you are entitled to be happy.

Validating is the "hear" part.  Not the fixing part.  No need to rub his shoulders when he's having a pity party.  He's gonna be angry - I'm guessing he was used to a certain level of soothing and its not happening. 

I agree with the T.  Ideally with validating his feelings it acknowledges the feeling and it allows him to do soothing part.  He needs to do that. 

No more backrubs for alcohol induced depression.

I don't know how you would start to approach those pity parties after the validating but I used to clarifying questions.  When he says you are healthy and he's not it may help to say something that acknowledges the struggle he's having and ask what his plan forward to attend to it is. 

Sometimes we have to let the person hit bottom.  It looks different for each member.  And the support versus enabling is/was a struggle for many of us.

So right now the separation is an opportune time to practice letting self soothe.  It gives you time to work it out in relatively safe distance and for him to get used to this new setting. 

What about when he calls?  What are the conversations?  Can we walk through one?

I agree... .   no more back rubs for alcohol related issues.  Since he's living elsewhere, those aren't happening at all now.  As a matter of fact, I'm not doing ANYTHING for him.

When he's calm, he's VERY good about discussing plans for "getting well."  It's like a split personality.  He'll say things like, "no more drinking at all, eating balanced meals, sleeping regular hours, cutting back on caffeine/adderall (interferes with sleep)," and so forth.  He'll be VERY rational about his plans.  He'll ask me not to buy any unhealthy foods, etc, and I'm totally fine with that.  He'll even tell me to get on his case if he's tempted to fail.  However, the plan is always very short-lived because the rational moments don't last.  And, I'm certainly not really allowed to "get on his case" if he's tempted to fail.  lol



The calls are very rare since his brother has "ordered" him not to talk to me.  lol  (His brother wants him to divorce me because - and this is sick - his brother has always been very jealous of H and wants H to fail  (seriously, my sister has warned my H that as soon as his brother gets what he wants (H's failure), his brother will not be there for him anymore.  His brother has a PD, not sure which one, but likely Avoidant PD.  His brother has a PhD in Physics but has never worked.  He stays at home all the time and has never EVER had a friend.  So, he's always been jealous of H because H has always worked, has had a social life, etc.  H's brother was furious when H got out of rehab and H came home to me (BIL had insisted that H move out at that point.).  BIL isn't quite smart enough to realize that if I truly was as heinous as he wants to believe that our adult-aged kids wouldn't be on my side 100% and that H keeps coming back to me. 

Anyway, when there is contact between H and me, H is very agressive and insulting as a "from the get-go offense."   

First of all, when he addresses me, he refuses to say my name.  It's a PA way of pretending that I'm not important enough to have a name or that by using my name that somehow makes me have more value than he wants me to have... .   lol) 

so, he'll just start out with rude words:

H:  did you pay the X bill as promised.

Me:  No, because I never promised to pay that bill.  You promised to pay all bills. 

H: We're supposed to share the bills.

Me:  No, that's not true.  You earn much, much more than I do (H is a very high earner).  My earnings, as you know, go straight to paying for our vacation home.  There is little leftover money, not even enough to pay for all of my expenses. 

H: Well, I can't pay all the bills because (some very lame and untrue reason).

Me: you're supposed to pay bills first before you incur non-essential expenses.  I've already paid for all of the vacation home bills - its mortgage, electricity bill, cable, and internet.  I've also paid for the cell phone bill, the electric bill, all of my expenses, and our son's rent (while in college) and his recent doctor bills and Rxs.)

H:  STFU

( I strongly suspect that H has been using a good chunk of his earnings to have some cosmetic work done for his wrinkles and for his balding spots.) 

I would tell him if you cannot afford to pay your bills and he is unwilling to help, the vacation home needs to be sold so you can support yourself.

That seems logical.

Unfortunately, the vacation home doesn't have much equity and it does more than pay for itself (we rent it out as a short-term rental and I manage that.)   Plus, I have outstanding reservations from now thru November.  Even if we put it on the market, it would likely take more than a year to sell.    We'd actually lose money if we sold it.  I do get some money from it. 

Selling it would just mean that I'd lose that income and he'd still not give me anything.  Until I can get a court order for him to support me (my atty is working on that, but it takes time), I'm kind of screwed. 

He's extremely vain (the narcissistic traits), and is certainly using money for cosmetic stuff.  When he was in rehab last fall, I found receipts from all kinds of dermatological cosmetic treatments.  They were temporary "fixes", but he'll likely now try for some permenent stuff. 

He thinks he needs to look more youthful so he can attract younger women.   

This sort of thing runs in his family. His mom actually had a face-lift at 80!  lol. 

Ahhh.  If you are getting income from the vacation house, I can see why you want to keep it.

Yes, your A should be able to help you financially, especially if your H is the big money earner.   He is just acting like a spoiled child.  Time to grow up and face his responsibilities with his big boy pants on! 

No is great place to stop because you got looped into a circular argument with the JADE, then your busy justifying why you can't pay for stuff - he knows this, this conversation wasn't about the finances.  It was about frustration for him.  And shifting it around to you.  And it worked. 

Since the finances were agreed upon, unless you are ready to look into legal action, falling back on the agreement is best.  Simple is best.  Short answers.

Not saying he doesn't have problems - part of the deal with staying with someone that is sick is learning to not make things worse.  JADE will always make it worse. You have to be the lead he isn't capable.  If you can't leave what are your options, unless the way things are now are acceptable.

So what can you do to minimize the conflict?

the problem is that he's painted me black so he doesn't think I deserve any money.  If I ended up homeless, he'd think that I totally deserve that.  Keep in mind that being painted black means that I'm evil, so who wants to give an "evil" person money.  lol

He's created a support system (his siblings who don't know any better and who also have some mental issues).  The whole family is really into PA behavior so they've cooked up a few PA behaviors to throw at me (like having my cell phone service turned off - now the company has a special code that must be given on the phone in order to change anything, so now he can't do that again.)  He also had my electricity turned off, and it took me a week to get it turned back on. 

Is this a legal separation?  Have you filed for divorce?  

Regardless, your financial agreements should be in writing.  It does not matter if he is angry and playing games or splitting you black, that does not excuse him from his legal responsibilities toward his family.  

You may wish to consult an attorney.

I have an attorney.  He says it takes time to get an order of support.  First H has a month to list all expenses, provide bank statements, provide income info, and then the info goes to a judge to determine an order of support.  The courts are "backed up" and H knows that. 

That is good news.   I am glad to hear you have an advocate working to help you.

Hang in there.

just saying "no" would not have stopped anything.  H makes a huge deal about imagined promises.  If I had just said, "no", he would have gone on and on about how I'm a "liar" because I "promised" to pay that bill and didn't. 

H has some hang-up about perceived promises.  Not only does he imagine ones that never happened, but he'll also take a casual statement like, "This weekend I'd like to clean-out my closet" as some kind of promise.  I have long-learned to never make casual statements like that anymore because if something serious comes up (illness, other family obligation, etc) that prevents me from doing that thing, H will still think I've broken a promise and rage about it.

His black and white thinking doesn't allow him to reason that if I get sick, then I can't do X.  However, if some friends had this situatiion, H would be able to understand.  He just views everything I do (or don't do) as some kind of reflection on him. 

That's the point, he doesn't "know this."  I have found that time and time again he doesn't "know," "remember," or "understand," various things.  Before I knew that he'd been drinking excessively at night after I'd go to sleep and that his sleeping pills also affect his memory, I thought he had early onset Dementia or Alzheimer's because his memory had gotten so bad. 

Now, I know not to engage in any kind of "back and forth" with him when he's upset or raging, because he won't "hear" me at all. Seriously he won't.  He once called, my son answered, H didn't realize it was my son, H started raging, my son kept saying, ":)ad, this is (Boy's name)." over and over, but my H never heard him.  H kept raging at "me", but our son was on the phone. 

H truly is like a two year old having a tantrum.

However, I've found that if he sends me an email with a short questions (such as, "did you pay X bill" as promised), I can usually write a couple of sentences that back up my position and that's often ok.  It's especially helpful if I can include a "blurb" from a previous email that backs up my action or non-action.

BTW... .   for many years, I've tried to communicate by email a LOT (or texting) so that there is a record of "conversations," "agreements," etc.   (I have an app that emails every text.)  Doing this has "saved me" many times.  I especially do this with any future plans (dinner invitations, children's events, etc.  I got tired of H saying, "you didn't tell me about X"  So, I started emailing him and in the email, I always put some kind of question in it that he has to respond to so that I can also later prove that he did see the email.  This has saved me many, many times. 

sadwife

He is really sick.  It is like beating your head against the wall to talk to him.  Written communication is a good idea, and not talking to him would be even better... .   but that is not realistic. 

When my son does this, I just listen.  Do not say a word until he is done.  Then I give a yes or no or, I will look into it answer and keep any response VERY brief and simple.  It is futile to argue and/or justify. Then, get off the phone as quickly as possible.  I have hung up on him on occasion but a simple.  "sorry, I have to go" works.  If he calls back do not answer the phone.  That may force him to e-mail or text. Since he has already vented, he may not bother to call back... .   that is what he wanted to do and he accomplished that. 

This is a form of verbal abuse that is so common in BPD.  Remember... .   others can only do to us what we allow them to do.  Set boundaries for communication and do not argue with him or justify.  Defer him to your lawyer on legal matters.  That is what you have one for. 

Believe me, I know how frustrating this is.  For your H it is a control issue.  He should not be drinking alcohol when taking sleeping pills.  That can be a dangerous combination.  I am convinced BPD does include memory issues... .   sometimes they seem to recall only what works in their favor.  They have selective memory. Sometimes they believe they have told us things they have not but can remember minute details of something that happened 30 years ago. 

Stop being so nice to him.  You set the rules and then be firm about enforcing them.

I'm for setting those boundaries Mammamia suggested.  It's what you allow.

Him: did you pay ... .  

You: No we agreed to blank.

Him: nasty accusations

You: we can talk when its respectful.  I've got to go.  (hang up)

If verbal doesn't work ( I get it its really hard when it gets all twisted up like this and turns circular ) go to written its easier to keep it on point.

He knows he's pushing , he's knows he's lashing out - does he know why or psych issues behind it? No.  Does he care or realize that its unreasonable or hurtful? Probably not.  Addicts can be really self-centered.  He knows it feels good to let it out on you though.

Setting these boundaries isnt about hurting him.  It's about you doing what you need to do to clean up your end if the street to make a calmer life for yourself if you can't leave.  The beauty in it is you start to control your environment - its less at the whim of an alcoholic mentally ill person. You can't let a person like this lead your life. 

Yes, he is really sick.  My kida and I have said that many, many times.  We're frustrated by the fact that his relatives have not hardly seen any of this, and they are naively providing emotional support for him (they live several states away).  The fact that they don't know the truth, and they have a natural desire to "support their brother," they have been giving him some VERY bad advice.  I get some comfort from knowing that at some point, they'll be the frequent target of his rages and then they'll be smacked into reality.

When we're on the phone, H does NOT EVER tolerate me saying, "I have to go."  When cell phones first became popular, H bought me one.  At first I was flattered.  But, I quickly learned that he bought it so that I'd be available to him all the time.  So, if he called, and I was at the cashier at the supermarket and not able to talk, he'd get angry if I said, "I'm at the cashier, I have to call you back."  He'd say, "I got you that phone so I can reach you when I need you."  I told him if that's the case, I don't want the phone.  He also gets upset if while we're on the phone (and just chatting, nothing important) and an important call comes thru, and I say, "X is calling, I need to take that call." 

The drinking and the alcohol will likely always be his "go to" solution to go to sleep.  He gets himself too wired during the day with various crap that he "needs" the pills and booze to fall asleep. 

I do prefer written conversations (emails, texts) because then there is a record.  However, if H is upset, then he won't read my response because he doesn't want to find out that he's wrong.

I really don't see a solution to this.  The handwriting seems to be on the wall.  H sent a text to our older son last night.  Son ignored it and I'm sure H is going to rage about that and blame me. 






I do think the above conversation is much better.  I do prefer using written because it can work better, but I've also found that when H is too upset, he will refuse to read my responses because he doesn't want to learn that he was wrong.  He prides himself on his memory (which is very good when it comes to sports trivia, or entertainment trivia, but his memory is awful when it comes to events that involve us. 


He says he's hurtful because I deserve it.  lol   He says that I frustrate him and therefore I deserve this.  That's why it's so nice to live apart from him. 

My guess is he knows.

It may be time to consider if its more important to be happy or to be right.

It looks like pointing out his errors hasn't made things better.  It seems to be fueling more problems.  Do you want to try a different approach?*


*it doesn't cure the alcoholism or pd traits, but it may bring the conflict down.

Believe me, I don't try to be "right" unless there's a serious consequence if a correction isn't made.  If there's an approach that won't have a different, but equally awful negative consequence, then fine.

However, there's this negative consequence that happens when H is allowed to believe that he's right even when he's not.  He doesn't just "leave it at that."  If he's been allowed to believe that he's right, then he'll use that as a "I was right about this, you were wrong" assault for weeks/months later.  Imagine how annoying it is for me to listen to "I was right and you were wrong" over and over again about an issue where I was really right but chose not to press the point. 

Years ago, H's therapist told him not to do that, but H continues.  H's therapist also told him that if I apologize for something, to take it as a "gift" and say no more.  H is unable to do that.  When I'm wrong about something and I apologize, then H can't just accept that.  He'll ether insist that I'm not really sorry, or he'll keep bringing it up for years and years (in another post I mentioned that my H still brings up a minor mistake I made over 20 years ago about a famous quote.  He brings it up at least every few months in a very cruel way.  Frankly, I find it funny that he has to go back 20 years and bring up a very minor mistake.

He's even told his current therapist this very old, minor mistake and yet she's still not "clued in" that he has BPD?  That's another story, but it is a frustration of mine that his current T is such a nurturing marshmallow who wouldn't confront him if her life depended on it. 

I'm really starting to think that his case is so severe that there aren't any techniques that would work with him.  As long as he's drinking along with BPD, he just doesn't have any self-control when it comes to me.  For awhile, I probably was allowing this to happen because I thought that if he took his frustrations out on me, he wouldn't do it at his job (and lose his job).   Now, that he hasn't had me to be the target of his rages, I imagine that he's a ticking time bomb and going to go "off" on someone at some point.

Reading this thread made me think of the "Why don't you/yes, but" game that Earic Berne talks about in his book, Games People Play.

Your last post especially reminded me of what I used to hear when I did parenting work in my job.  The parent would shoot down all my suggestions and ultimately say "I have tried all of that and it doesn't work on my kid.  Nothing is going to work with my kid."

But wait, I have more two cents to add! :)  It also sounds like you have scapegoated yourself all these years in fear that your husband would show his butt publically and maybe lose his job/status.  I know my mother did this with my Bipolar father b/c she was constantly worried he would leave yet another job.

This is an opportunity for you to start disegaging from this familiar dynamic you have developed with this alcoholic, immature, vengeful a$$hat, but it probably feels unfamiliar.  That's understandable, but if you stick with it, it will mean emotional freedom for you and that is soo worth it. 

We are here for you.

Good luck and take care

It's funny that you should post this today because I had a similar conversation with my sister today (she's a T).  

We talked about how severe H's BPD and other issues are which is why many suggested ideas haven't worked.  

I know what you mean when you say that parents will often say that X method won't work with their child (and maybe they're right or maybe they're wrong).  I can see why it seems that I'm doing the same thing.  However, children are often more "bendable" while middle-aged adults, who have long-entrenched themselves in bad habits/behavior, may be less so.

H has so much pented-up anger (from job, from the death of his dad, and from his perceived major faults of mine when I'm painted black), that he reacts poorly no matter what is done.

For example:  We have seen at least 5 different therapists as a couple.  These are all trained T's and NONE of them could get H to behave (stop yelling) in their sessions.  They couldn't even "end" the sessions when they wanted to.  The last T told H that he (the T) was afraid of H.  Ever since that time, H has blamed me for that.  

Yes, I have protected his job, mostly because we have financial commitments (mortgages, college tuition, etc) that would fall apart without hs income.  My goal was always to get him to retirement and then make some permanent decisions.  However, ever since his drinking increased and he had an altercation with our younger son, I haven't been able to see much light at the end of the tunnel.  

The bolded part is the really crazy part.  When I'm painted White, I'm the best, smartest, most giving person/mother/wife in the world.  When I'm painted Black, I'm the most selfish person and the worst mom/wife in the world. 

Me too Sadwife... .   me too.  It totally sucks.

so sorry that you're going thru this, too.  It's strange, isn't it.  When they're screaming that you're the worst _____, they don't seem to remember that they were saying that you're the best hit_ a day or so earlier.

Later, when H is calm, I'll ask him why he says that I'm the worst hit_, and he'll say, "Oh, you know I don't mean those things.  I'm just mad at the time." 

Since we were talking about how to deal with the lashing out... .   so where to from here?

What's your therapists input so far on how to deal with it?  Is it different than what Alanon recommends?

My therapist believes that H is beyond hope. She thinks his BPD with NPD traits is severe enough combined with alcoholism, his impulsivity, his "father issues" and his very lenient/indulgent mother that he'll never get better, he'll only get worse because he's so much in denial and really doesn't have a good grasp on reality. 

She thinks that if he truly got sober, really took his meds properly and had a serious T that knew how to properly confront, he might be a little better but never tolerable.  When she's blunt like that, it's hard not to accept that. 

It's good to get feedback from your therapist to help make decisions on what course to take in life. 

Now that you have this information, are you ready to talk about what you can do to start making your life better?

Our older son has very limited contact with my H. (younger son has no contact).  Our older son feels that he needs to maintain this very limited contact because he thinks H would even treat me worse if there were no contact.   

H recently sent some texts to our older son that clearly indicate that H wants information about me... .  What I'm doing, where I'm living (I moved recently to avoid H's barging in unannounced), etc.  H wants this son to call him so that they can "talk".  Son and I are concerned that H really wants info about me. 

So far, son hasn't called H.  Son did send a short text saying that he's doing fine and that he'll call him sometime later (this was to buy time.)

Son doesn't want to be put in the middle.  he knows that he can't disclose where I'm living, but he knows if he flat out says, ":)ad, I can't tell you where mom is living," then he'll get furious and claim that son is "choosing sides" and that "your mom has turned you against me."

I'm thinking that son just needs to respond to such questions with: ":)ad, if you want to have a conversation about me and my life, then fine.  But, if the purpose of this phone call is to fish for information, then I'm going to have say good-bye."

Communicating your message... .  isn't that putting him the middle. He's an adult, maybe it's best to let him decide what to say.  


You've vented a lot - and hopefully that has helped.  Want2Know is asking a good question.  Is it time to start disscussing how to build a bridge to a happier place?

Sadwife

This is called "triangulation (read definition) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0)" and it is very common in BPD.  I have been there and it is not a good place to be.  Very stressful... .  very uncomfortable.  

Your son cannot mediate.  He needs to get out of the middle to avoid becoming a victim of your BPD H which will happen sooner or later.  He may want to refer your H to your lawyer for information or stay out of the discussion altogether.

I have already started to make my life better.  I've gotten an apt and H will never know where it is.  I'm managing my business.  I'm taking a class that will lead to a new business venture.



Thankfully, lawyers can't give info.



As for the post that son would be communicating "my message," that's not true.  My son has voiced that it annoys him that H doesn't really seem interested in him, but just wants info.  So, if he were to say what I recommended, it would be "son's message." 

Having to parent your son with a partner you no longer want to be in a relationship with can be difficult.  That is understood.

Trying to be perhaps more of an impartial participant in their relationship might be more beneficial for all parties involved. 

My mom never spoke badly about my dad when they were divorcing or afterwards, even though I know she had major issues with him.  She even went to the extent of pointing out his good qualities when I was thinking he was a bad dad.  She took herself out of the equation, and was more impartial when I was venting about him to her.  She helped to keep me balanced instead of piling on with her own personal frustrations with him.

Is this something you are willing to do?

Sadwife

You are doing an excellent job of starting over and protecting yourself and your family.  You have come a long way.  I, for one, am very proud of you and what you are accomplishing. You are are laying the groundwork to be happy and successful on your own. 

Life will go on.  Move forward and look back only to remember how far you have come.  The future awaits.

The past is gone forever, the future is yet to be... .  today is the present ... .  it is a gift.

Love that.






   

Since this child is nearly 24 and finishing his PhD, I'm not really parenting him anymore.  We're more like best friends.  

Since my children have both witnessed so many horrible parenting displays by their father, saying pleasant things about him (which I've done) can sound like saying "Hitler was nice to dogs."  It doesn't really balance out.  lol

Thank you for your very kind words.  They are very much appreciated.  Yes, the future is a gift.  The fact that I have my adult children's 100% support is a gift.  I am a strong person and I'm able to do many things.  That is also a gift.  I have many blessings to be thankful for. 

{{{ hugs }}}