How to deal with the lashing out and BPDH's worst symptom(s)

[SadWifeofBPD]

H starts his verbal assaults - sometimes out of nowhere because he's been "daydreaming" in a negative way about some perceived indignation from job, kids, me, traffic, etc.

Not only do I not respond, but if I attempt to responsd, I'm immediately shut down and told to "just listen, don't talk".   The raging kicks up more, then more, then more.  If I try to institute a "time out" or try to get away, then I'm told that I'm "frustrating" him.

I do think the raging is their method of soothing, kind of like hitting a punching bag.  H used to golf more (before his hip surgery), and hitting balls off the tee was therapeutic for H.  On many days that he couldn't actually play golf, he'd go to the golf range and hit a few buckets of balls, work out at the gym, or play raquetball.  When he was a child, he'd play baseball and go to the batting cages.   I think that action of powerfully hitting something was relief from some of his pain.

In recent years, he hasn't been able to do those things (surgery about 7 years ago) so raging has markedly increased. He also started crying more (before, he rarely ever cried.)  

So, I can see why he more frequently resorts to raging now that his golfing is more limited.  His drinking also significantly increased.

Now that we're living separately (oh how blissful this is!), I do wonder what he's doing with his anger.  Would he be targeting other people, or maybe just drinking more?  Just an idle curiousity.  I can't imagine that he can go from raging maniac to calm coping person just by living elsewhere simply because "life's bumps" really upset him.  


As for H's worst symptoms, they are:

Raging

Painting our younger child and me black

alcoholism

Not allowing me (or anyone) to respond to his accusations, rants, etc.

Name-calling

Blaming

Very immature emotions, reasoning skills, lack of common sense, etc.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Another "worst symptom" is the lying.  H does think he's telling the truth most of the time, but his memory is awful. 

There must be something  about BPD that affects certain types of memory.  Often we do think that he thinks he's telling the truth.  The fact that he flips out when his memory is challenged makes me think that he had this problem as a young person and frequently became upset when people would challenge his memory of things.  He really flips out. 

[GiveMeAHand]

Another "worst symptom" is the lying.  H does think he's telling the truth most of the time, but his memory is awful. 

There must be something  about BPD that affects certain types of memory.  Often we do think that he thinks he's telling the truth.  The fact that he flips out when his memory is challenged makes me think that he had this problem as a young person and frequently became upset when people would challenge his memory of things.  He really flips out. 

I too believe that BPD affects the memory, your post and avatar reminded me of a time I and my wife went to see a marriage councilor: She wanted a Yorkshire Terrier and I said no, we already had a Pug. She eventually got her Yorkshire Terrier puppy and looked after him for all of 2 weeks, after that she had nothing to do with him and I have taken care of him since. When we saw the councilor she said told him that it was me who wanted the Yorkshire Terrier and that she had never wanted him.

[hithere]

I think the raging is a compulsion, their feelings are  hurt by real or imagined reasons and because feelings = reality to them they want to hurt someone back.  I think they do feel better while raging, it is a release for them.

[MammaMia]

Sadwife

Oh yes, there is no that BPD raging is therapeutic to them.  For the rest of us... .   not so much.  They feel relief and never give a thought to how their anger affects those it is directed toward.  When my son rages, I often say nothing.  He just wants to talk and me to listen.  I wait for him to ask for my input (if he does), otherwise I do not validate.  He sees that as patronizing and fuel for the fire.

After years of this, I have learned to just let it go.  Anger, insecurity, frustration and feelings of victimization produce their rage.  They cannot own it, so they project it.  My son rages by phone which eliminates the immediate physical violence factor.  I do not think he trusts himself around me when he is angry.

 

We can either let it go or attempt to set boundaries for this behavior.  I think there may be different answers for different situations, and we need to do what works for us.  BUT remember above all else ... .   this is mental illness and the playing field is NOT level.

[Clearmind]

Its possible his symptoms are lessened because you are not living together. pwBPD are triggered by those closest to them.

Does he rage on the phone and in person? Its important you have your own personal boundaries around this - staying/engaging/responding is reinforcing bad behavior.

[SadWifeofBPD]

They feel relief and never give a thought to how their anger affects those it is directed toward. 

I think this is a serious issue that many of us Nons face.  The pwBPD rages, gets their anger out, but then they become angry again when the target of their anger is still hurt or upset from the raging, name-calling, etc that they've endured.  They don't have any empathy for that. 


Are pwBPD "mommy-fixated" in some way?  I don't mean that they cling to their mothers, but they want that "mommy-care" from certain people.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Its possible his symptoms are lessened because you are not living together. pwBPD are triggered by those closest to them.

Certainly yes, to a point.  H is like a very small child, he can be distracted.  He's distracting himself with work, TV, the gym and booze. 

Right now, his routine is "go to work, go to the gym, eat, watch TV/surf net, drink-then-sleep."  On weekends, it's "sleep in, go to the gym, nap, watch TV/surf net, stay up VERY late, then sleep."

As long as nothing triggers a rage (no traffic, no "oopsies", no lines at the stores, etc) he can be rather fine.  If he does encounter any of those, he's probably drinking more. 

I do know that he's upset that his children want nothing to do with him.  He's been whining, "I've always been a good dad (ha!), I've worked so hard to provide for them, and this is the thanks I get."   (this is his mantra to anyone he encounters... .   of course, those who've never seen his rages have been convinced that I've "turned the boys against" him.  ha ha... .   not.  )

My sister warns me that at some point, he's going to become very upset because no one is taking care of him.  Even if he tries to find a new relationship, since he's only attracted to professional/educated women, he's not likely going to find someone who'll care for him as he wants.

Does he rage on the phone and in person?

He's actually has said some of his worst things on the phone.  During phone calls he's blamed me for the recent death of one of our dogs who died from a sudden onset of a severe auto-immune disease.  He also blamed me because our outdoor cat is now missing.  He said that I killed them both by neglect . (What a joke, I'm the most devoted pet parent.  When another cat died a few years ago, H complimented me about how devoted I was to that cat during her last two weeks... .   never leaving her side.  When she was hospitalized, I was at the vet during all office hours sitting with her.  Of course, I was the same way when H had his hip surgery and during his 2 month recovery.  DEVOTED.  I did EVERYTHING from helping him toilet, bathe, dress, change his surgery dressings, bring him his food, meds, etc.  BTW... .   I got NO credit for any of that, and a few months later H actually claimed that I did NOTHING for him.  Thankfully our kids witnessed my 24/7 care of him and "set him straight".  Again, the memory of a pwBPD is really faulty when it comes to their emotional neediness.

Its important you have your own personal boundaries around this - staying/engaging/responding is reinforcing bad behavior.

I completely agree.  The problem is that when I'm away he views that as "abandonment" and really lashes out and makes the craziest accusations (adultery, treating others better than how I treat him, etc).

[SadWifeofBPD]

Another "worst symptom" is the lying.  H does think he's telling the truth most of the time, but his memory is awful.  

There must be something  about BPD that affects certain types of memory.  Often we do think that he thinks he's telling the truth.  The fact that he flips out when his memory is challenged makes me think that he had this problem as a young person and frequently became upset when people would challenge his memory of things.  He really flips out.  

I too believe that BPD affects the memory, your post and avatar reminded me of a time I and my wife went to see a marriage councilor: She wanted a Yorkshire Terrier and I said no, we already had a Pug. She eventually got her Yorkshire Terrier puppy and looked after him for all of 2 weeks, after that she had nothing to do with him and I have taken care of him since. When we saw the councilor she said told him that it was me who wanted the Yorkshire Terrier and that she had never wanted him. 

I thought that I posted a response to this but I'm not seeing it.

My H has done similar things.  We once bought a car for our older son, H totally made the decision, and a couple months later claimed that I "made" him buy the car.  Thankfully our older son was present when H made this new accusation and son set him straight that H decided to buy that particular car.  

[Clearmind]

SadWife, hearing those types of accusations are hurtful I know. I lived with my partner and found it really hard to "extract" myself from the blame etc.

It's harder to process and handle it when you are in it.

I had some very good advice from my therapist at the time - not engaging is the first thing. Not to take it personally and internalize it because it would impact on my daily functioning. It would twist me into a ball and when around it long enough you become resentful, bitter and impatient not only toward my partner but to those around me - this is not a good place to find ourselves in and does not help the relationship or us.

I can understand its tough, and being in separate houses is a good thing for now because it means you can work on your own boundaries and healing you too.

I do know that he's upset that his children want nothing to do with him.  He's been whining, "I've always been a good dad (ha!), I've worked so hard to provide for them, and this is the thanks I get."   (this is his mantra to anyone he encounters... .   of course, those who've never seen his rages have been convinced that I've "turned the boys against" him.  ha ha... .   not.  )

DEVOTED.  I did EVERYTHING from helping him toilet, bathe, dress, change his surgery dressings, bring him his food, meds, etc.  BTW... .   I got NO credit for any of that, and a few months later H actually claimed that I did NOTHING for him.  Thankfully our kids witnessed my 24/7 care of him and "set him straight".  Again, the memory of a pwBPD is really faulty when it comes to their emotional neediness.

For reconciliation to even have a chance, our side of the fence needs some mending! We play a role.

Without working on us - we can not help to better the relationship. Hubby is not going to change however we can work on us, the way we view our own situation, the way we communicate which in turn will help the relationship. We need find some new ways because it sounds like this way is not working.

The relationship is suffering right now and it sounds like you are too – to rebuild that we also need to work through some of the resentment/hurt/sadness that comes from being the target of accusations. How are you working through this? We can only mask it for so long until we blow – this is not healthy.

hit

"How to deal with the lashing out and BPDH's worst symptom(s)" - There are a bunch of lessons at the top of the Undecided Board.

Our partners are emotionally immature – this is a fact and not one we can change – which also means that we need to exercise more emotional maturity, pick up the slack. We can spend a lifetime trying to change our partners – if we want to make things better we need to put in some work and learn acceptance.

We need to step out of the conflict cycle.

We have a variety of tools available to us – boundaries if he calls you drunk, don’t engage “I will talk to you when you calm down: talk to you later”.

Name-calling and blaming

Arguing - don't engage.

Stop accusations and blaming

Communication tools

TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth

Communication tools (SET, PUVAS, DEARMAN)

Communication with our BPDSO: The power of 3... .   Consistency/Validation

TOOLS: Stop Invalidating Your Partner (or the BPD person in your life)

Reinforcing good behavior, positive reinforcement

[SadWifeofBPD]

Thanks for the links.  I'll go thru them.

I do say that I'll talk to him when he's calmed down, but he claims that I say that to "frustrate him" because he wants to RAGE right then. 

[MammaMia]

Sadwife

Oh yes, I think that is true.  He is angry NOW... .   later or tomorrow does not exist.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Sadwife

Oh yes, I think that is true.  He is angry NOW... .   later or tomorrow does not exist.

Yes, they definitely live in the moment.  but, once their own anger passes, they have no patience for the fact that the target of their rages may not yet be ready to reconcile.

  I wait for him to ask for my input (if he does), otherwise I do not validate.  He sees that as patronizing and fuel for the fire.

I've noticed this as well.  If while H is raging, if I respond with simple, "yes," "I hear you," "can you clarify," etc, it only angers him more.

[GreenMango]

Validation doesn't work all the time - it definitely doesn't work in a rage.  That's a better time for a time out.  Sometimes nothing works except letting the person calm them self down.


Other times our validation isn't really validation - it's token phrases.  I've done it.  I'm sure all of us have done it. 

The I hear you, yeah I understand, etc are pretty token.  Validation is about reflective listening and acknowledging another person's feelings.

So maybe a sample of when you are trying to validate before the rage situation and we can walk through it with you could help?

A simple one you've experienced:

Husband:

Me:

Husband:

Me:

[SadWifeofBPD]

So maybe a sample of when you are trying to validate before the rage situation and we can walk through it with you could help?

A simple one you've experienced:

Husband:

Me:

Husband:

Me:

since I've recorded many of H's rages, I'm able to give you actual dialogue.

(husband has locked his keys in the car and I've called the auto club to open the car. H begin raging because he's upset with himself, and he's intoxicated - which I don't realize at first.)

Husband:  you're supposed to be my friend.

Me: I am your friend.  You asked me to call the auto club and I did.

Husband:  when I tell you to stay in the house you stay in the house.

Me:  The auto club dispatcher asked me to check to see if the tow truck driver had arrived.

Husband:  I told you to stay in the house and don't open the door.  (then just random babble raging and insults .  BTW... .   my attorneys heard this audio tape and were absolutely shocked... .   and they've heard everything... . )

Me:  (no longer saying anything because nothing I say is getting processed.)

[GreenMango]

First I've got to say this - trying to talk to someone while they are drunk and expecting them to have any remote understanding is expecting a pig to fly.  A drunk person and a rage episode is even better suited to practicing boundaries.

Husband:  you're supposed to be my friend.

Me: I am your friend.  You asked me to call the auto club and I did.

This is JADE.  This exacerbates conflict.  Alcohol or no alcohol.  Validation looks a little different than this - A little like "That must feel awful that I'm not your friend."

Husband:  when I tell you to stay in the house you stay in the house.

Me:  The auto club dispatcher asked me to check to see if the tow truck driver had arrived. This is JADE - justify, argue, defend, explain.  It's a great way to poke a bear. 

This is where I wouldn't have said anything I would have let him figure this out on his own.  He's getting pushy and disrespectful - escalating towards verbal insults and abusive. I probably would said something like "I want to have a respectful conversation. We can talk later when you are ready. I'll see you at home or later.  Then left, got a cab, etc.  It's important to know when to let go.

Husband:  I told you to stay in the house and don't open the door.  (then just random babble raging and insults .  BTW... .   my attorneys heard this audio tape and were absolutely shocked... .   and they've heard everything... . )

Me:  (no longer saying anything because nothing I say is getting processed.)

You can't talk it out of them, or most anybody when they are upset like this, when they are raging.   

What about your conversations with him that don't involve a rage episode?  My experience these things escalate, they start small with perceived or real slights and build.  What about the times before they get to critical mass in anger?

From the tools that Clearmind linked above which one looks like the first small step that you want to try?

[SadWifeofBPD]

First I've got to say this - trying to talk to someone while they are drunk and expecting them to have any remote understanding is expecting a pig to fly.  A drunk person and a rage episode is even better suited to practicing boundaries.

Husband:  you're supposed to be my friend.

Me: I am your friend.  You asked me to call the auto club and I did.

This is JADE.  This exacerbates conflict.  Alcohol or no alcohol.  Validation looks a little different than this - A little like "That must feel awful that I'm not your friend."

Husband:  when I tell you to stay in the house you stay in the house.

Me:  The auto club dispatcher asked me to check to see if the tow truck driver had arrived. This is JADE - justify, argue, defend, explain.  It's a great way to poke a bear. 

This is where I wouldn't have said anything I would have let him figure this out on his own.  He's getting pushy and disrespectful - escalating towards verbal insults and abusive. I probably would said something like "I want to have a respectful conversation. We can talk later when you are ready. I'll see you at home or later.  Then left, got a cab, etc.  It's important to know when to let go.

Husband:  I told you to stay in the house and don't open the door.  (then just random babble raging and insults .  BTW... .   my attorneys heard this audio tape and were absolutely shocked... .   and they've heard everything... . )

Me:  (no longer saying anything because nothing I say is getting processed.)

You can't talk it out of them, or most anybody when they are upset like this, when they are raging.   

What about your conversations with him that don't involve a rage episode?  My experience these things escalate, they start small with perceived or real slights and build.  What about the times before they get to critical mass in anger?

From the tools that Clearmind linked above which one looks like the first small step that you want to try?

Well, I was NOT aware that he had had anything to drink until afterwards.  Since I had been with him the entire evening except for his very brief trip to a very nearby store to buy a couple of snack items for us to enjoy that night, I was unaware that he had also purchased some booze and had likely "chugged" some it in the car before coming in (which caused the distraction of locking his keys in the car.)


While I can see the JADE aspect and see that I should have said something else (but I was completely caught off-guard), I do not think I should have said, ""That must feel awful that I'm not your friend," because then H would have said, "see, you admit that you're not my friend.  See, you're admitting that you don't treat me like a friend.  You don't treat me as well as you treat your friends."  And then a whole new argument would ensue, PLUS, during future rages, H would then repeatedly bring up the fact that I had used the words, "I'm not your friend." 

I can see saying something like, "it must feel awful that you think I'm not your friend."

[SadWifeofBPD]

I probably would said something like "I want to have a respectful conversation. We can talk later when you are ready. I'll see you at home or later.  Then left, got a cab, etc.  It's important to know when to let go.

I actually have done that when we're at home (he has complained to his T's that I do this to "frustrate" him).  In this case I couldn't have done that.  We were in a hotel room with 2 dogs.  If I had tried to leave w/o the dogs, he would have used the dogs as blackmail (which he's done - so I never leave him alone with our dogs).  I wouldn't have been able to take a taxi with my dogs.  I couldn't even just walk out of the hotel with the dogs because it was night and the area isn't known to be safe at night.

Because I was limited to what I could do, I just went to bed and covered my head with a pillow to drown out some of his rantings. 

[GreenMango]

I get how difficult this is.  I spent the last year together carrying 40 bucks, a spare key and my cell phone in a pocket almost every time I went anywhere with mine.  Clothes with pockets became a staple because I never knew what was going to happen - a rage, a tantrum, a disappearing act, a flurry of insults in the car - and most of them at the most inoppurtune times.  

Shoot I had to get out of the car at a stop light so I could walk home.  

You can say something better than I put together.  "it must feel awful to feel like I'm not your friend." He could interpret it differently.  If he gets upset and the insults come its really important you don't engage that with any jade and put some space in there.  Which should be easier since you aren't living together at the moment.

Take a look at the validation and Jade workshop.  From your other thread it sounds like you two still communicate about the kids and other things.  Maybe start there.  It's not about whether he thinks his feelings are true as much as he feels heard.  

We can increase the conflict easily.  It doesn't take much when someone struggles with emotional instability.

PS his drinking is a problem - could be the most pressing.  I don't have to tell you this.  :)o you have support?  Alanon or a therapist.  

[SadWifeofBPD]

Yes I do have a T and I do go to AlAnon with my older son. 

The drinking definitely makes things a LOT worse.  What used to only happen maybe 1-2 times per year became a weekly, sometimes daily occasion. 

When he moved out, he loudly declared that he had to move out because being around me made him want to drink (ha ha... .   lie).  He's painted me black, black, black so being around me upsets him.  He says that it upsets him to see me happily going about my day while he's miserable.  He says that it's not fair. 

I know for sure that he's still very hard drinking and he's been gone for over a month.  I know that he didn't go to work today because he was too hungover from last night's drinking.

[GreenMango]

Having a support system is essential.  What does alanon teach about how to approach the drinking?

He says that it upsets him to see me happily going about my day while he's miserable. He says that it's not fair.

I found this to be a trigger too.  It points out a lot of uncomfortable stuff to person who has BPD.  Rejection in difference and enmeshment need.  Sameness is safety.  Doesn't mean you have to change your good mood for him.

Totally validate his feelings on stuff like this - it doesn't mean you change your plans or happiness.  Just that you hear him.  It could help.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Having a support system is essential.  What does alanon teach about how to approach the drinking?

He says that it upsets him to see me happily going about my day while he's miserable. He says that it's not fair.

I found this to be a trigger too.  It points out a lot of uncomfortable stuff to person who has BPD.  Rejection in difference and enmeshment need.  Sameness is safety.  Doesn't mean you have to change your good mood for him.

Totally validate his feelings on stuff like this - it doesn't mean you change your plans or happiness.  Just that you hear him.  It could help.

Alanon doesn't want famiy members to "approach the drinking".  The motto is:  I didn't cause it, I can't control it, I can't cure it.

I do validate H when he says that it upsets him when I'm happy, etc.  He's angry that I wake up at a decent time and am ALWAYS in a good mood. 

He's angry that in the morning, I "pop" out of bed in a good mood, and immediately start on my day.  (he's also angry that I'm always in a good mood.)   He's angry that I feel good enough to have a little fun with the pets.  He's angry that I don't feel tired all the time (He's often hungover so he doesn't feel good in the morning)

He's also angry that I (according to him) will live longer than he will because (according to him) he's going to die first because of the booze and a heart issue. 

Oh, and he's also very angry that I don't have any facial wrinkles and he has many. 

I do try to validate him, but my T says that I have to be careful because I'm spending too much energy on "soothing" him.   One day H was in bed all day brooding about how unfair it is that I'm healthy, not an alcoholic, etc.  I would come in the room occasionally, massage his head and shoulders, and try to validate his feelings.  My T said that I should not be soothing him.

[MammaMia]

Your T is right.  There is a fine line between soothing and enabling.  He may perceive this as an excellent way to get your attention.  This means on one hand you are telling him this behavior is wrong and on the other hand it is ok.

HE is making himself miserable.  He has to own it and only HE can change it.

BPD and alcohol are a toxic combination.  Alcohol is a depressant and it fuels his

depression and anger.  It also contributes to his dysregulation.

He needs to get the message it is not acceptable and you are done with it.  If he wants to drink and terrorize, he has to get help and/or get out.  Then ignore his requests for attention and comfort.

You have a life too and you are entitled to be happy.

[GreenMango]

Validating is the "hear" part.  Not the fixing part.  No need to rub his shoulders when he's having a pity party.  He's gonna be angry - I'm guessing he was used to a certain level of soothing and its not happening. 

I agree with the T.  Ideally with validating his feelings it acknowledges the feeling and it allows him to do soothing part.  He needs to do that. 

No more backrubs for alcohol induced depression.

I don't know how you would start to approach those pity parties after the validating but I used to clarifying questions.  When he says you are healthy and he's not it may help to say something that acknowledges the struggle he's having and ask what his plan forward to attend to it is. 

Sometimes we have to let the person hit bottom.  It looks different for each member.  And the support versus enabling is/was a struggle for many of us.

So right now the separation is an opportune time to practice letting self soothe.  It gives you time to work it out in relatively safe distance and for him to get used to this new setting. 

What about when he calls?  What are the conversations?  Can we walk through one?

[SadWifeofBPD]

Validating is the "hear" part.  Not the fixing part.  No need to rub his shoulders when he's having a pity party.  He's gonna be angry - I'm guessing he was used to a certain level of soothing and its not happening. 

I agree with the T.  Ideally with validating his feelings it acknowledges the feeling and it allows him to do soothing part.  He needs to do that. 

No more backrubs for alcohol induced depression.

I don't know how you would start to approach those pity parties after the validating but I used to clarifying questions. 

When he says you are healthy and he's not it may help to say something that acknowledges the struggle he's having and ask what his plan forward to attend to it is. 

Sometimes we have to let the person hit bottom.  It looks different for each member.  And the support versus enabling is/was a struggle for many of us.

I agree... .   no more back rubs for alcohol related issues.  Since he's living elsewhere, those aren't happening at all now.  As a matter of fact, I'm not doing ANYTHING for him.

When he's calm, he's VERY good about discussing plans for "getting well."  It's like a split personality.  He'll say things like, "no more drinking at all, eating balanced meals, sleeping regular hours, cutting back on caffeine/adderall (interferes with sleep)," and so forth.  He'll be VERY rational about his plans.  He'll ask me not to buy any unhealthy foods, etc, and I'm totally fine with that.  He'll even tell me to get on his case if he's tempted to fail.  However, the plan is always very short-lived because the rational moments don't last.  And, I'm certainly not really allowed to "get on his case" if he's tempted to fail. 

So right now the separation is an opportune time to practice letting self soothe.  It gives you time to work it out in relatively safe distance and for him to get used to this new setting. 

What about when he calls?  What are the conversations?  Can we walk through one?[/b]

The calls are very rare since his brother has "ordered" him not to talk to me.    (His brother wants him to divorce me because - and this is sick - his brother has always been very jealous of H and wants H to fail  (seriously, my sister has warned my H that as soon as his brother gets what he wants (H's failure), his brother will not be there for him anymore.  His brother has a PD, not sure which one, but likely Avoidant PD.  His brother has a PhD in Physics but has never worked.  He stays at home all the time and has never EVER had a friend.  So, he's always been jealous of H because H has always worked, has had a social life, etc.  H's brother was furious when H got out of rehab and H came home to me (BIL had insisted that H move out at that point.).  BIL isn't quite smart enough to realize that if I truly was as heinous as he wants to believe that our adult-aged kids wouldn't be on my side 100% and that H keeps coming back to me. 

Anyway, when there is contact between H and me, H is very agressive and insulting as a "from the get-go offense."   

First of all, when he addresses me, he refuses to say my name.  It's a PA way of pretending that I'm not important enough to have a name or that by using my name that somehow makes me have more value than he wants me to have... .   ) 

so, he'll just start out with rude words:

H:  did you pay the X bill as promised.

Me:  No, because I never promised to pay that bill.  You promised to pay all bills. 

H: We're supposed to share the bills.

Me:  No, that's not true.  You earn much, much more than I do (H is a very high earner).  My earnings, as you know, go straight to paying for our vacation home.  There is little leftover money, not even enough to pay for all of my expenses. 

H: Well, I can't pay all the bills because (some very lame and untrue reason).

Me: you're supposed to pay bills first before you incur non-essential expenses.  I've already paid for all of the vacation home bills - its mortgage, electricity bill, cable, and internet.  I've also paid for the cell phone bill, the electric bill, all of my expenses, and our son's rent (while in college) and his recent doctor bills and Rxs.)

H:  STFU

( I strongly suspect that H has been using a good chunk of his earnings to have some cosmetic work done for his wrinkles and for his balding spots.) 

[MammaMia]

I would tell him if you cannot afford to pay your bills and he is unwilling to help, the vacation home needs to be sold so you can support yourself.

That seems logical.

[SadWifeofBPD]

I would tell him if you cannot afford to pay your bills and he is unwilling to help, the vacation home needs to be sold so you can support yourself.

That seems logical.

Unfortunately, the vacation home doesn't have much equity and it does more than pay for itself (we rent it out as a short-term rental and I manage that.)   Plus, I have outstanding reservations from now thru November.  Even if we put it on the market, it would likely take more than a year to sell.    We'd actually lose money if we sold it.  I do get some money from it. 

Selling it would just mean that I'd lose that income and he'd still not give me anything.  Until I can get a court order for him to support me (my atty is working on that, but it takes time), I'm kind of screwed. 

He's extremely vain (the narcissistic traits), and is certainly using money for cosmetic stuff.  When he was in rehab last fall, I found receipts from all kinds of dermatological cosmetic treatments.  They were temporary "fixes", but he'll likely now try for some permenent stuff. 

He thinks he needs to look more youthful so he can attract younger women.   

This sort of thing runs in his family. His mom actually had a face-lift at 80!  . 

[MammaMia]

Ahhh.  If you are getting income from the vacation house, I can see why you want to keep it.

Yes, your A should be able to help you financially, especially if your H is the big money earner.   He is just acting like a spoiled child.  Time to grow up and face his responsibilities with his big boy pants on! 

[GreenMango]

H: did you pay the X bill as promised.

Me: No, because I never promised to pay that bill. You promised to pay all bills. H: We're supposed to share the bills.

Me: No, that's not true. You earn much, much more than I do (H is a very high earner). My earnings, as you know, go straight to paying for our vacation home. There is little leftover money, not even enough to pay for all of my expenses.

H: Well, I can't pay all the bills because (some very lame and untrue reason).

Me: you're supposed to pay bills first before you incur non-essential expenses. I've already paid for all of the vacation home bills - its mortgage, electricity bill, cable, and internet. I've also paid for the cell phone bill, the electric bill, all of my expenses, and our son's rent (while in college) and his recent doctor bills and Rxs.)

H: STFU

No is great place to stop because you got looped into a circular argument with the JADE, then your busy justifying why you can't pay for stuff - he knows this, this conversation wasn't about the finances.  It was about frustration for him.  And shifting it around to you.  And it worked. 

Since the finances were agreed upon, unless you are ready to look into legal action, falling back on the agreement is best.  Simple is best.  Short answers.

Not saying he doesn't have problems - part of the deal with staying with someone that is sick is learning to not make things worse.  JADE will always make it worse. You have to be the lead he isn't capable.  If you can't leave what are your options, unless the way things are now are acceptable.

So what can you do to minimize the conflict?

[SadWifeofBPD]

Ahhh.  If you are getting income from the vacation house, I can see why you want to keep it.

Yes, your A should be able to help you financially, especially if your H is the big money earner.   He is just acting like a spoiled child.  Time to grow up and face his responsibilities with his big boy pants on! 

the problem is that he's painted me black so he doesn't think I deserve any money.  If I ended up homeless, he'd think that I totally deserve that.  Keep in mind that being painted black means that I'm evil, so who wants to give an "evil" person money. 

He's created a support system (his siblings who don't know any better and who also have some mental issues).  The whole family is really into PA behavior so they've cooked up a few PA behaviors to throw at me (like having my cell phone service turned off - now the company has a special code that must be given on the phone in order to change anything, so now he can't do that again.)  He also had my electricity turned off, and it took me a week to get it turned back on.