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Yes... . after tons of research on how we humans are wired, I was amazed to find out that if people with BPD/NPD or the so-called Cluster B personality disorders hurtful, manipulative, deceitful, lying, cheating behaviors stem from being in the survival mode, then so many things make sense.  The cerebral part of the brain is the rational part of the brain... . the thinking/analytical, the right from wrong, the part of the brain that separates us from the rest of the animals on the planet.  The next level down is the limbic part of the brain that mainly controls basic emotions like fear, happiness etc.  These two struggle for power constantly.  Apparently, when someone has emotional trauma in their life as I understand that is the cause of these Cluster B type disorders, (sexual trauma as a child, returning veterans from war PTSD), the limbic part of the brain takes control for the most part.  This part of the brain easily will drive behaviors to the instinctual/survival part of the brain (reptilian)... . thus animalistic, irrational, illogical behavior.  My exBPD/NPD could go from the cutsy, sexy, soft spoken woman to an enraged animal when triggered to survive!  She literally became an animal... . operating from the part of the brain which oddly enough is called the reptilian part of the brain so named because it is that part which is the most primitive... . like any other animal on the planet. Knowing this kind of scares me to know this is the person I was with.  She was really scary when driven to this part of her thinking... . physically abusive, emotionally abusive... . down right mean!  It is my opinion only after this exhaustive research that there is no known cure for the disorder... . at best, when someone is diagnosed, they agree they need help and get it, they can somewhat control triggering the limbic brain from constantly going into the survival mode.

With all that said... . it is unfortunate that we were all taken in by someone with this disorder.  Like I've said before in other posts, for me, I make no excuse for this disorder... . their behavior is unconscionable, wrong, hurtful etc.  There is no cure except for yourself... . you have the power to heal, grow, move on, and truly find a caring, loving, nurturing relationship... . they DO NOT and CANNOT!  Save yourself... . work hard at detaching from this truly animalistic person! (I know!... . through no fault of their own but it makes no difference why or how... . just that they are what they are!  Never forget it!). 

And in a sense, people who are so magnetically attracted to BPD are their prey. I think of the kinds of animals that mimic the sounds of their prey to lure them. And then I think of the BPD mirroring technique. Scary and not nice to associate this with a person who also can be so loving. But that reptilian response is like that.

Nice take navy, I hadn't heard that analysis before.

I'm beyond blaming her; sure, she's responsible for her actions just like everyone else, but she literally does not know why she does the things she does or have any idea what the underlying motivations are, partly because she's terrified to dig.  I blame her parents, specifically her mother, for creating the shtty home she was raised in, and who knows, maybe if I dug far enough it was because of the shtty homes they were raised in, and on it goes... .

So we're back to taking care of ourselves, partly with the experience and battle scars of a BPD r/s.  Let's not do that again.  It's estimated 2% of the population is BPD; the odds are in our favor, as long as we get and stay healthy, so we don't smell like prey.

Very interesting research flynavy and something I think we can relate to.

In terms of my ex, I wouldn't have considered her a reptile but more of a praying mantis. She mirrored me from the very beginning, when I initially didn't ignore the red flags (took a step back from the relationship because something didn't feel right) she followed me, made all the right sounds, made me feel like I was being an ass for breaking the heart of this amazing and lovely woman. I relented, decided that any further red flags were down to me thinking negatively.

What was strange is how she got pregnant when a) She was in fear of losing me and b) with the use of contraception (twice! Because that's apparently what happened to SD's biological father too)

Once she got what she needed from me, that's when she turned nasty, after the wedding and the birth of our daughter. Things slide rapidly downhill from there, I lost all sense of who I was and any effort to regain that I was branded all sorts of names. She literally did get inside my head. So rather than reptile, I see her as a praying mantis.

At the end of the day we should really count our blessings that we were able to see the light... . after my wife died from cancer i was a wounded man... . she was my wife's nurse for 7 years... . so I thought what I saw was what i was gonna get... . at first yes but it got twisted very quickly.  I had a huge whole to fill and she knew exactly what to do, what to say to suck me into the black widows web.  How could an articulate, beautiful, cute, awesome looking woman turn into the ugly woman I saw far too many times to count.  Worst was when I called off the wedding... . worst night of my life.  She was extremely physically violent, and said some of the worst obscenities I have ever heard come out of a beautiful woman's mouth.  Why did I stay... . the sex and body to body contact was absolutely perfect... . a perfect fit!  She actually said to me... . you have the life... . you go to work... . work out... . eat dinner and get laid every night.  If its too good to be true... . IT IS! When she was enraged... . she took on the persona of a trapped animal in survival mode.  The next day... . call me/act like nothing happened!

This is interesting. I can understand what you are saying about survival mode.

However, the way you wrote these seems a little biased... .

Just because we BPD/NPD cannot compute what feeling is missing, does not mean we are out to consciously pick victims or are animals.

From my own experience, its whatever fills the hole for them or serves as narcissistic supply to us, but even if we become aware of this or talk about it, it doesn't extinguish the fact that they are not decisions we are informatively making.

So, yes and no.

It's not fair to go around saying that Nons are able to see the light.

I, too, lost a BPD partner and it still stung. There are probably people that read these boards that have a similar issue and know that they would be demeaned to admit that they have a PD and subjected to non thinking that their feelings do not matter, just as apparently that their exes must also not have them.

Having a personality disorder myself, it's easy to understand that they are human too.

They are not just computer players in the world, lacking certain emotions does not make you devoid of others.

I hope you really consider this and find forgiveness eventually. It's a good time to reflect and find what your life is really about. Maybe in some cases she wasn't worth your time, very understandable, but please... . don't soak others with such evil terms. 

Especially reptilian terms.

I once wrote a poem about my penchant for getting involved with wounded young men (it's a pattern for me, though my exBPD was by far the worst:)

"They are like hurt hawks, these boys who flutter into my care... . "  was the opening line, and it described being clawed and bitten as I healed them, and then watching them abandon me.  I was awfully insightful when I was in my early 20s... . wish I'd been able to permanently change.  Contributed to continue the idea of predator/prey. 

ya know... . i get the point here. 

but - i have done fight or flight situations my whole life - military during persian gulf... . handling fire for a living... . my mothers alcoholism... . and i am not BPD. 

there has to be something else going on in the neurochemicals or receptors.   

my x isnt sorry a day - isnt missing an effn beat - of course is feigning heartbreak to anyone who will listen about bad old me... . cueing up her allies.

im telling you - premeditation in getting what they want.  they may not be conscious of their cycle... . but my ex knows EXACTLY what she is doing when shes doing it.

So does the tiger when charging its prey.  It doesn't make it any less of a survival instinct.  When my ex and I hard arguements, I observed once that he didn't argue to compromise, he argued to win.  He agreed whole heartedly and said, "You are my significant other, therefore you are the enemy."  On some level when he was dysregulated he felt it was a matter of survival.  The main reason I eventually left was there were incidents of choking.  It always ratcheted up so fast I wondered one day if he would not back off in time and I would be brain-dead or dead-dead. 

whatisthetruth... . I'm with you... . I am an Adult Child of an Alcoholic (father)... . I was beat as a child... . scars to prove it protecting my mother... . shot at as a Navy pilot in Viet Nam (missles and AAA), but did not turn out to be BPD or an alcoholic.  Trust me... . I make no excuses for that bit$%.  Her behavior was premeditated, calculated, she knew it was wrong.  My point is I don't care if she's sick... . I'm tired of "people " labeling someone sick to validate crappy, hurtful, unconscionable behavior.  I've been through WAY to much to have this type of "bad" person define the rest of my life.  My ex hasn't/isn't missin an effen beat as well... . she know exactly what she is doing... . she is not tore up by her behavior... . she just continues to destroy... . but it ain't gonna be me!

My understanding is the disorder is a personality disorder, and does not have an organic or biological cause; it's the way they're wired due to early childhood experiences, they went through the development process differently.

But some are intelligent, mine certainly was, and after you've been living on this rock for decades, you get a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't, as you respond to situations based on your model of the world.  My ex was fully aware of the sht she pulled, but had no clue what the underlying motivation was, or that other people saw the world differently.  Mine had to be the most awesome woman on the planet or complete scum in her own head, black or white thinking, so awesome won most of the time, which she also used as justification for the trail of wreckage.  But I know there were plenty of times when she was alone at night that it felt like the world was against her and she was worthless scum, and I wouldn't wish that hell on anyone.  Just don't get any on ya.

Isn't that a little bit of a ironic thinking... .

Intelligence does not at all mean a person is aware nor of rational thinking.

The shame she feels all together is not specific toward you (set to personal). It's a pool, a giant collection of the things that have accumulated over time. When she realizes she's hurt you, it bubbles up in the same cauldron.

Hope you don't mind if we balance this out a bit. This is a very simplistic explanation for something that is quite complex. The brain is complex and is responsible for emotions and sorting of facts.

Hippocampus – long term memories, part of the brain records facts (contextual memory).

Limbic - "emotional brain" (Amygdala - emotion, learning and memory) - stimulates the hippocampus to remember many details surrounding a situation or event.

As you touched on - this analogy is not solely for describing Cluster B PD’s. Anyone who has had a traumatic childhood – children of alcoholics, sexual abuse victims etc can have a distorted reality of where emotions (Limbic) don’t equal facts (Hippocampus). It can cause twisted thinking and poor coping skills.

We are not taken in by a person with this disorder – we chose it – we chose it because of our own personal issues. Don’t look outside for the answers within.

Clearmind... . do you agree that there is no cure for persons with BPD/NPD/ Cluster B personality disorders.  Being judgmental is normal based on our own experiences... . some call it bias... . prejudice... . whatever... . it is reality for the perceiver!  I did not choose to be with my ex because of my own personal issues... . I chose her because first and foremost I was attracted to her because I found her to be very attractive, sexy, charming woman.  When we made contact, I was honest and forthright with my very personal remarks to her not because of my personal issues... . but because I found her attractive and wanted to get to know the real person... . she was not!  I was honest because i wanted to have a nurturing relationship like I had for 32 years... . she was not motivated by the same as we all know!  So I may have misspoke... . sorry... . we were not taken in... . we/I chose to make contact... . if my childhood as an adult child of an alcoholic, tough upbringing, taught me to be an honest, loving, caring individual who longs to share his life with a similar person... . then OK... . I guess my personal issues in my life affect my choices to find the same person to share my life with... . I was honest... . she was NOT!  It is incredibly naive to think... . knowing what we know about this disorder, particularly the deceitful, manipulative, lying, behaviors they use to "reel" unsuspecting honest people in, that we were not taken in.  Yes, we initially chose to initiate the process of getting to know someone we are attracted to but they chose to use manipulative, deceitful tactics to ensure their prey was there for the taking... . whenever they wanted... . however they wanted!

I do see both sides of this debate.

Clearmind is right that we did choose this and for people like me, although things didn't add up from the start, I pushed aside the red flags. Looking back over old e-mails, my ex wasn't deceitful in the sense that she did talk about her past experiences but not to the full extent they became known. I honestly can't say whether she knew or not that she had BPD/NPD but she was honest in telling me that her previous relationships ended because she ran and that this time things were different. I do think she was being honest at the very beginning and I despite knowing some of these things I chose to enter the relationship.

In some aspects, I do think she was very aware because she tried to put that label on me so she was very aware. I also had issues of my own from my past which I was very open with right from the beginning. The worst part was having those issues used against me and manipulated in such a way that I actually believed I was the issue in our relationship and was doing everything I possibly could to make it work while she sat back and watched. I always fell just short of the mark, everything was "almost" good enough. It also makes me sad, because if she knew and was open about it from the start, things would have been very much different. I wouldn't have had to have doubts or see hidden red flags, instead I would have known completely what I was getting in to and worked with her to make sure we were both in a good place.

In flynavys case, he fell for someone he was attracted to, that hid that other side of them until he was involved. That part is unfair and very selfish because flynavy put himself on the line, was open and honest about his past and she used that to get what she needed rather than be honest and decide that things wouldn't work out. I think much of this post is about processing the anger, hurt and frustrations. The things that for most of us, we couldn't do in our relationships.

It is perfectly fine to be angry at somebody who has hurt us, but also back to what clearmind is also saying, we need to look at ourselves as to why we feel this way and that is an advantage we have.

I feel like i'm a prey. When BPD woman is out and looking for a prey, chances is we will become her prey. Some of my friends said that my ex is older and has a lot of experiences, as i am 7 years younger. I never told them she might have BPD traits. Omg, with my ex, when you become a target of her prey, you will lose. Perhaps she mirrors people best. She treated me like a king, gave me a lot of compliments and praises. Imagine, we were in long distance relationship and our communications were probably instant messenger and phone. But i still felt like a king. Imagine if we were not. Its no wonder a lot people here are feeling hard to let go even if they abused us.

There was also a red flag. Her ex didnt marry her 3 weeks before the day. He ran away. She told me as if she was the victim which i believed her. Now i understand why he didnt marry her.

If you feel like prey - you are also negating your role as an adult and particpator in this relationship.


No I believe that pwBPD can recover. Oceanheart is a member here who has made wonderful contributions to the board. Stef’s husband on the Staying Board is also recovered.

One of the biggest challenges with recovery is admitting they need help. Denial can keep pwBPDs from seeking the diagnoses and treatment they require. Partners of pwBPD play a role – they also need to take a step back, contribute to the relationship by “stopping the bleeding” by breaking the cycle of conflict and healing from their own issues which may or may not involve trauma and abandonment issues.


OK these are wonderful things for a partner to have. What about trust, respect, compatibility in other areas of finance, moral, ethics, wanting family.

Attraction and sexual draw are not a precursor to a healthy long relationship. This is instant attraction – great for an instant not great for a long lasting r.s.


At what point did you realize this? Surely not at the end of the r/s. There were red flags throughout we ignore.

An alcoholic parent has a huge bearing on a child. I’m a child of an alcoholic. I know the damage it has caused. I sought out high drama relationships because it was reminiscent of my childhood. Did I recognize it has high drama – to an extent I did however that feeling of being idealized was something I had longed for my entire life.


No such thing as reeling in or sucking in my friend. Move away from this victim mentality that you were taken for a ride. You are an adult with adult privileges – you get to choose. And for whatever reason you chose to stay in this relationship for as long as you did.


It’s a way of life – their actions are not predatory. BPD is steeped in shame and self blame and self loathing – they don’t pass a thought at how it affects you because they hurt so so very badly.

Move away from blaming your ex. It’s convenient because it stops you from hurting and stops you turning the focus on you – it’s a way of masking our own guilt and shame for not being about to caretake. Maybe you are not ready for this yet – maybe you are. However talking from experience and plenty of therapy – our role is very clear.

I no longer blame my ex.

Good Morning clearmind... . I agree with you regarding as an ACOA, I have always longed for someone idealizing me... . I was always told by my father I would never amount to anything... . thus I chose to go to college to get into medical school... . but redirected towards being a US Navy carrier pilot... . that surely would show everyone... . even Dad! 

What I do not agree with is the "reelin in process".  Yes I chose... . but the idealization was intoxicating... . she knew this... . and used manipulative/deceitful behavior to accomplish this, so I chose based on her dishonest representation of herself.

Looking inside... . I was extremely vulnerable... . my wife died just 8 months prior to initiating this relationship... . maybe too soon?... . maybe it was just what i needed.  I actually thought what if I was using her to transition from my pain and my survival mode to the living mode.  It is a possibility... . what if I never was going to marry her... . just used her to keep her close while I healed... . my therapist thinks not, we actually talked at great length about it. 

How quickly we all forget the healing process... . I remember how devastated with grief I was after my wife's death... . then the anger (at God... . at myself... . ) but I eventually accepted the situation and began to realize how truly fortunate I was that she chose me to be her husband, best friend, lover and father to our children.

Same with this loss... . because it is a loss... . I was all in... . don't matter why it can't work!... . I know I need to get over the anger to get to acceptance and move on... . as my wife would say lovingly... . OK... . your polish... . sometimes you need to get hit square in the face with what you need to do several times before you get it... . I'm trying!... . I'm working at it hard!   

clearmind... . forgot... . regarding "prey"... . my point was I did not feel like prey... . I was saying that if they are truly hurting and trying to survive than the analogy of she viewing me as prey to fill her need for temporary emotional relief from the pain is valid... .

I can understand feeling like prey.

When I'm fishing or crabbing, I use bait to catch my prey.  To me, this is the idealization phase in a relationship with someone with BPD.  

You are lured into a relationship that isn't real.  How would you know it's not real?  My ex didn't mirror me completely.  In fact, looking back, I can only think of very small, inconsequential things she mirrored in the very beginning.  It wasn't until we moved in together that the red flags really started to surface.  By then, I was on the hook.  I should also note the relationship wasn't "too perfect" during this phase either.  There were moments of doubt that I ignored, as I would with any new relationship.  It takes time for people to get to know each other.

My ex also lured me into the relationship with her looks.  Some of her earliest texts were of her in a bikini.  I thought this a little premature but I was a widower.  I'll give myself a pass here.  If that's not an enticing lure under the circumstances, I don't know what is.  Bravo to her.

I'm not saying she's a lion, mantis or black widow.  But I do know she's self-aware enough to know relationships aren't her thing -- so why does she keep doing it?  Einstein's theory of crazitivity?  

She has "Possibly Maybe" tattooed on her body.  Read the lyrics to that song.  It should be the BPD theme song.

I don't think she "preys" maliciously though.  I think she's seeking "love" but isn't emotionally equipped to handle it.  She finds it, it goes wrong, it's their fault -- rinse, repeat.

Deep down though, I know she knows the problem is her.  

I never, ever go a sense of calculated malice from my ex.  Not even when he was doing the worst things.  He sometimes seemed as baffled as to why he did things that he knew would hurt me as I was.  But he did them, intentionally, even if he didn't understand what was driving him to sabotage, and there was fallout.  In the end, he tried so hard and really did clean up his act, but too much damage was done.  I couldn't stay with someone I couldn't trust to be faithful, and especially not with someone who had choked me three times. 

Even predators in the wild don't think "aha, there's a gazelle, I shall murder it brutally and feast upon its flesh, leaving its children to starve, haha!"  They need food, they see what they recognize as food, and they do what instinct drives them to do in order to eat.  That's a really hard thing to get your mind around.  I'm sure not all BPDs are this way--everyone's an individual, even if the sickness does seem to have classic manifestations.  I don't think mine ever thought gleefully about hurting me, or even two steps down the road that it was betrayal and it would hurt me if I found out (which I always did, one way or another).  THAT was why I couldn't stay.  Because it was so unpredictable and irrational. 

Did she?

You idealized one another! She was mirroring you! You were mirroring her - it was a dance for two.

No one can reel you in without your permission. Step outside the thinking that she was to blame and manipulated you - look at why you relished in the idea of being idealised instead of seeing it as a  red-flag.

You enjoyed being idealized as much as she did - you both felt whole/at peace/loved/needed - this type of "love" is not sustainable and it was inevitably likely to fall apart. You cannot put one another on a pedestal for any length of time and maintain it. Its not real, its an illusion for you both.

If you continue to view her as manipulative and deceitful you will not detach - you are hanging onto the ideas of what she did to you rather than concentrating on why you put you put up with it. This is the difference between feeling victimized and thriving. To thrive we must look at our role. This is your choice.

Look over to the right ---> where are you on the Detachment scale? Take the focus off her and what did and didn't do to make you happy.

You will see it in time.

Exactly.  She knew exactly what she was doing and it was intentional, but she had no awareness of why, or the foresight to predict the fallout, she was just trying to survive best she knew how.  Ugly disorder.


Yes, everyone is different, but traits are common enough to fuel this website, for example.  Mine didn't get gleeful either, in fact she liked to say 'people are ugly', and she was including herself.  Hard to imagine living like that, I just know I don't want to.

I have trouble relating to many of the point of views on this thread. I'm not invalidating those POV's at all. I just perceive things quite differently. I don't understand why anyone would expect people who lack object constancy to conform to allegedly mainstream sentimental attachments. That's not the way that it works for them. You can bang your head against the wall wishing it was so, but it's similar to that feeling when you're still in the running for the powerball. Imagining, how great it would be to win.

You  have to transcend suffering to maintain a relationship with a pwBPD. Stop taking everything they say and do so seriously. They might love you 4 out of 7 days a week. That's a majority lol. It's dialectical opposites--which can be either maddening and amazing in its own way. The same person who exhibits eccentric, sometimes hurtful coping tools, can still exhibit a deep abiding attachment to you--thesis, antithesis, synthesis. The clashing of different minds, in opposition and unison, simultaneously. Something is synthesized from all of this.

I'm sorry that so many are bitter and hurt. I've felt that way too at times, but these are extraordinarily interesting people who have elaborately different circuitry than most. We get so caught up in our hurts and alleged victimization that we mentally cut them out of our lives, and subsequently castigate them for being themselves. I've maintained a relationship and friendship with my BPD lover and friend for over 7 years. Are we all over the place in the manner that we attach, no doubt. Does it conform to the norm, absolutely not. Has it been unique, definitely. Think of them as kaleidoscope's, shifting colors reflecting patterns and light. Dialectical tension will always be present in a relationship with a pwBPD. Staying, leaving, and undecided all coexisting within the union. BUT, when you acknowledge that suffering is caused by desire, and let go of that desire--often the world is born anew, and you are able to perceive beauty in letting things be.

Yes conundrum, if you can detach and look at a BPD existentially, they would make fascinating studies in human behavior.  For me it was the bait and switch; you're right that what we call "reality" is really just group consensus, and I was looking for someone who was capable of true intimacy, deep emotional connection, and love as a sustainable long-term state of being.  She presented herself that way for a while, and I was hooked, and once she got triggered and the other side showed up, it was a complete surprise and completely unacceptable.

Instead of a close monogamous relationship built on mutual trust and respect, I got infidelity, lack of trust, abuse and devaluation, literally out of nowhere.  Being angry is part of the healing process, but you're right, blaming and playing victim are ways to get stuck.  The choices appear to be detach emotionally and just enjoy the fireworks of the disorder, or get the hell out with lessons learned, on the way to a healthy relationship.

Clearmind... . thanks... . this really hit home for me today from your post... .


You idealized one another! She was mirroring you! You were mirroring her - it was a dance for two.

No one can reel you in without your permission. Step outside the thinking that she was to blame and manipulated you - look at why you relished in the idea of being idealised instead of seeing it as a red-flag .

You enjoyed being idealized as much as she did - you both felt whole/at peace/loved/needed - this type of "love" is not sustainable and it was inevitably likely to fall apart. You cannot put one another on a pedestal for any length of time and maintain it. Its not real, its an illusion for you both.

If you continue to view her as manipulative and deceitful you will not detach - you are hanging onto the ideas of what she did to you rather than concentrating on why you put you put up with it. This is the difference between feeling victimized and thriving. To thrive we must look at our role. This is your choice.

I really feel for you when you find yourself in that type of situation. When it comes as a total surprise and there is no forewarning. I know it's cold comfort but unfortunately those same actions occur out of the blue in allegedly normal relationships too. Whether a pwBPD is less liable is entirely subjective. In my situation, neither one of us knew that she had BPD when we met, but it was abundantly clear that she was a beautiful mess. Deep down, I had never really banked on her being able to pull off being my wife, or even a lifelong consistent SO--consequently by the time that I let go of that desire it felt like a relief. I have little interest in hating on her. She has so few stable friends as it is.     

Your words have been very relieving... . I felt so much tension when this thread started.

I do not argue the feelings of a non, but to coldly shun some of us as a non-person... . ironically enough some of the people on L3 say that their BPD/NPD others treated them like a non-person.

There is a sharp, searing pain that follows these relationships but there is no less a chance for them to see the light if they choose to eventually. Probably not so much for healing for NPD... . but BPD very much so.

------

Having a PD doesn't mean you live in candyland sucking on sweets all day it is quite tormenting x_x

This is quite beautiful.  I like the idea of accepting her exactly as she is, even flawed.  I wonder if she would afford me the same luxury, or would it be yet another double-standard?  Regardless, your words have actually tempered some of my recent anger towards her.  I actually feel better.

Thank you.

Yes, I like it too, thanks conundrum.  I'm curious, have you been able to maintain healthy boundaries with your pwBPD?  I wasn't, and realize that's my issue, and the abuse I allowed makes it impossible to maintain any kind of relationship with her, and I never got to a place where there was no desire, although I do love her, have a great deal of sympathy for her, and find her very interesting and unique.

Curious thought... . would we/you all be so understanding/sympathetic/still love someone who could lie,cheat,deceive, manipulate, physically and emotionally abuse you if they were just someone with out a disorder... . or... . is there anyone without a disorder who could exhibit this unconscionable behavior towards another human being? 

They are what they are!... . Their behavior was REAL!  I'm still a little upset that we so easily tend to accept bad behavior once we have a disorder we can attribute it to.  I guess if I did the same things to her or anyone for that matter... . I could blame it on me being an Adult Child of an Alcoholic... . just trying to sooth my pain.  Guess what... . I was traumatized as a child but I am not BPD/NPD/Histrionic or a sociopath.  I was able to have a beautiful 32 year marriage to the love of my life. 

I almost have felt/sensed more sympathy for the exBPD/NPDs here on this site because of the enormous pain they must be enduring on a daily basis than for the pain/grief I have had after loosing my wife to Ovarian Cancer.  I guess its human nature to pity the poor alcoholic, drug addict, PD person... . but the rest of us who have had to endure any inappropriate behavior as a result of our relationship with them... . suck it up... . be strong... . cuz there's nothing wrong with you!

Sorry... . Just my final rant on this subject... . its good to vent and not take it out on other people like those who are "sick" can and do on a routine basis.

That's why I asked conundrum if he maintained strong boundaries navy.  It takes two to tango, and our exes only did what we let them get away with.  My process of leaving started by enforcing my boundaries, for once, and that didn't go over well at all; finally the only way to enforce them was to leave.  And now detached, I admire who she is and have compassion for her, hate her disorder and what it does to her, and have to stay away to stay healthy.

I also began to set boundaries - boundaries are healthy in healthy relationships - sometimes boundaries are not respected - is this a person you want to stay with? If you did stay then why would you want a person in your life who doesn't respect you.

Without or without the disorder - and many here are undiagnosed - wouldn't you want to be treated with respect? If so, then why stay in a toxic relationship?

Maybe she filled a gap for you Fly - replacing the longing you have for your lovely wife. I don't know - just a thought.

Clear... . I do believe you are right... . she did fill a whole for me... . albeit temporary... . I guess we kind of had a symbiotic using relationship which was destined to fail... . I think I knew eventually I could not be with her as I was with my wife... . but  I chose to stay because she did give me temporary relief from my pain/loneliness with over the top sex... . but even that became shallow for me... . bothered me because I knew i wanted more and she couldn't give it to me... . true love... . she inferred many times she had a hard time with love... . never been in love before she met me... . I told her once that I didn't think she was capable of Love and she never refuted it... . red flag I CHOSE to ignore.

Clear... . you have an uncanny knack for getting me out of the feeling sorry for myself mode... . redirecting me towards looking inside... . only I can fix me... . I want to ... . tired of being angry... . Thanks!  It sucks coming off of a beautiful 32 marriage to a truly beautiful person inside and out to what I chose to endure for the past 2 1/2 years... . guess you can teach an old dog new tricks!

Being angry is OK! You have a lot to be angry about….your wife is certainly a wonderful woman who you loved deeply. It’s Ok to grieve – it’s OK to temporarily replace that grief with a new love interest – albeit a disordered one.

Just remind yourself of expectations – your BPDex cannot replace your loving wife. Your BPDex cannot ever live up to the expectations you have of yourself – this is asking her to do something she simply cannot do.

I cannot answer that in a way that would satisfy you. She is my friend. I do not shame her--ever. She is on the short list of people that I could turn to in an emergency.

Let me see if I can explain this to you. We trigger their shame via our suffering. It repels  like a force-field. It reinforces their belief that they are alien. Being alien is feeling alone. They were alone when abandoned. They want to be loved. That is all.

Boundaries are for property lines and ownership interests. Staking one's line in the sand. The tides come in and wash the boundaries away. It is the nature of the tides. If you feel that you own the sand and can control the tides then living on the beach is risky business. If you go with the ebb and flow you can always sleep under the stars.

Yeah, OK, and sometimes there are unannounced tsunamis, then what?  So you seem to have found peace with your pwBPD; what brings you to this board?

Wow... .

The nice thing is that no member has to justify that to another. But since you asked, to learn from others.

Again, beautifully put.

As for me though, ever stand on the sand while the tide comes in/out?  One tends to get dizzy as everything shifts underneath your feet.  Even short stints can cause people to lose their orientation and balance.  If you fall, do you get mad at the sand or the surf?  No.  You laugh at yourself and do a better job keeping your balance next time or walk away.

I believe most people, not all, prefer a more solid foundation for a relationship, one that consists of reciprocity, mutual respect, love/affection and many layers of intimacy.  

My ex had a good heart.  Was the outcome to my liking?  No.  Was it to hers?  I don't think so but who knows.  Life moves on for both of us.  I think I'm finally coming to peace with that.

"And so castles made of sand melts into the sea, eventually." Recoil, I don't disagree with anything you said. Except we "fall in love" and "we walk off into the sunset."  Black and white. Life more often than not are shades of gray.

I feel for the young people. If their entanglement w/ a pwBPD is among their first truly meaningful relationship. It's so hard. The expectations of marriage and perhaps children. I wish them well on their journey. To not be so scarred that they can't recover. Losing one's vulnerability can become a life-long sentence. That's sad. 

Conundrum... . I agree... . I wrote this under different topic jsut minutes ago... .

By now many of you read my many posts regarding my ex BPD/NPD fiance.  It seemed like hell for 2 and 1/2 years... . but please be assured that there is true love out there... . I experienced it for 32 years.  You all will find it when you least expect... . like I did.  As I contemplate the last moments with my wife, I am still amazed at the perplexing beauty of being there for my wife, best friend, lover,mother of our children as she breathed her last breath.  The paradox of knowing she is leaving me yet I felt good knowing I helped the person I loved the most to get to a better place with no pain... . no cancer... . no anxiety... . no apprehension. I know this isn't the place for this type of post but you all should know that through all of the pain you are going through right now... . there are caring, selfless, loving people out there!  This should be more than enough stimulus for you all to move forward... . get to know who you are... . what you want and detach from your current toxic relationships!  You all deserve what I had for 32 years... . it will make all of what your going through right now seem so not worth the time we all give it!

Nah.  I don't believe people "fall in love" and "walk off into the sunset".  That's Hollywood.  My late wife died at age 34.  I don't believe in fairy tales.

But I would venture to say that a relationship built on communication, mutual respect and multiple layers of intimacy has a greater chance of lasting than one that isn't, regardless of a BPD diagnosis.  Why build on sand when you can build on granite?

I've come to fully realize that my ex didn't have those qualities.  I'm no longer mad at her for not being who I wanted her to be (the person she was in the beginning).  She tried - she just couldn't sustain it.  I now appreciate her for who she is -- but I won't be trying to build any castles with her.  I'll appreciate her from afar.

As of right now, and I reserve the right to change my mind, I wish her nothing but the best in her future endeavors.  And I wish myself the best as well.  I've had excellent relationships in the past (fourteen years with my late wife).  I will have more.

Clearmind:

"It’s a way of life – their actions are not predatory. BPD is steeped in shame and self blame and self loathing – they don’t pass a thought at how it affects you because they hurt so so very badly."   

I know she hurts.  I was there holding her as she sobbed after hurting the kids.  i do see her light - but it's what she does to me in the dark times that make it soo hard.

If she could take some measure of responsibility - some - and we could commit to moving forward in therapy... . I'd do my best to embrace the tools to help her/us in communication.

I have given mine an ultimatum.  I know she loves me... . but possibly her ego structure too firm right now? I told her the only way to move forward is with weekly therapy couples sessions, that I am doing work in communication and conflict resolution.  she is uBPD... . so i have to step carefully.

ah god... . my heart breaks.  i love her and know i cant heal her.  and i love her kids and dont want to leave them with her (they arent mine). want to try to stand by her even after all the hell - but not sure she will let me.


I feel angry... . and like a want to duck tape her mouth (joking)... . utterly betrayed at times and i know its almost a compulsion to seek relief for her... . everything... . and im not making excuses... . i see it.

and i still friggin love her.

ah gawd - somebody slap me on the back of the head here.   

She was the same person at the beginning and at the end. It was your perception of her that changed.       

My perception had to change because how she treated me changed.  It's quite normal for people to be "on their best behavior" in the beginning of a relationship and act differently.

There was mutual respect.  There was a lot of affection.  There was laughter and joy.    There was emotional intimacy.  It wasn't perfect, as there is no such thing - but it was very good.

Then she weaned herself off Zoloft and increased her Klonopin use.  Things changed after she altered her medication.  The happiness and joy was replaced by depression.  Respect was replaced by belittling.  The affection was replaced by indifference.  Then the punishment started (one of the last straws was her naming her new puppy after the ex I dated before her).

Sure, she was the same person with the same fears and anxiety she's had her whole life.  But somehow, in the beginning, those fears and anxiety were kept "in-check", either by the idealization phase, medications or pure choice.

Yes, we all put our best foot forward at the beginning of a relationship, and off we prance into the honeymoon period, realizing that it is temporary and hoping it will evolve and mature into a mutually beneficial relationship.  My BPD ex didn't have BPD stamped on her forehead, so I went into it assuming she had an ordered personality; turns out I was wrong, and am fully aware I brought my own susceptibility to it, and voluntarily blinded myself, which forms the basis of the project I've made of myself now.

I was able to detach emotionally for a while in the relationship, and could admire the ebb and flow of her pyche from afar, considering it both amusing and strikingly unique, although I decided I didn't want to be in a relationship with someone I needed to stay detached from, and although she was being consistent with who she is, some facets were unacceptable to me. 

Interesting, I have a friend who also had a horrific childhood and in my opinion is BPD, although we've never been more than friends, and I find her very interesting and unique, and maybe the distance we've always had prevents her from being triggered by me. 

I'm now at a place where I've decided what happened was supposed to, there were things I needed to learn, the ride I took on the BPD ship that passed through was a ride I needed and don't regret, and have accepted that expecting it to dock permanently on my shores was a fantasy, but hey, I'm prepping the harbor now for someone capable of dropping anchor long term.  I think conundrum is affecting my writing... .  

I understand that whatisthetruth!


You are requesting something of her she cannot provide. Why do you want to change her? This is who she is. Its either accept it or move forward. Even if you do seek some help for your stuff – which I recommend you do anyway – you cannot force someone into therapy.


Everyone wants to preserve their ego. My guess is you are preserving yours as well – ultimatums are one thing – and if she doesn’t follow through your ego is damaged. Let go of the need to change her.

You will detach when you change your perception of her.  She is showing you who she is – you may need to accept it rather than hang onto the hope she will change.

Love is not enough!

yes. i hear you... . all of you.

as the fates would have it - she ended the relationship today... . after spending all afternoon at a nudist camp (no joke).  

She ended it after attacking my friends/family whom i defended (fatal flaw).

She then proceed to blame me for the ensuing argument - that she started mind you.

And kicked me out.  Again.

Did I mention I have lost a lot of my friends because of her antics, paranoia, jealousy and isolation?  And my family is back east.

It's occurring to me that she displays the cruelty after I dont give in to her degradation of me.  The thing is I think she wants to break me - really break me.  If I dont stick up for myself she wont respect me, and if I do - she cant abide me... . its a mess.

I was supposed to do the kids with her this weekend, which really means take care of her every whim and the kids too... . "mr mom" i am!  but when she started picking the fight, blaming, criticisms that led to degradation... . I could not bring my self to spend time with her around the kids.  It's a set up for more criticisms.  I told her I thought she and I should take space this weekend and I would spend time with the kids next week (as she originally suggested).  That set her off.  Mind you all of this was by text.

Because if she has to do the kids, then she flips out, then drinks, then hits the kids.

She says we are done for "this next little bit" - then says we are over - then tells me I cant eat the food in the kitchen... . what an effd up nightmare.

and to think i was actually willing to work on this relationship today... . what an idiot.

I believed the mirage - hell i fell in love with the mirage.

I thought I was being a straight up guy by telling her what i was looking for - so if we werent a match at least we'd know straight away. naive and gullible honest me. i will never show my cards like that again.

All that did was give her the information to manipulate me.

ok - i have to figure out where the hell im going to go... . this was my family... . or i believed it was.  





 

Mine did that too; it was all about control, which is how she tries to avoid abandonment.  I asked her once if she liked being told what to do.  She said no, and had no idea what connection I was trying to make.  Fantasyland.

whatisthetruth, I relate to your feelings of frustration. The damned if you do and damned if you don't moments where it's a double edged sword either way. I know from experience that even saying nothing causes accussations of being cold, distant and not validating their feelings so you can't even use that as a way around it either. Drawn into a confrontation that only has one outcome.

fromheeltoheal, I relate to those feelings of control too and your approach. Again, it's something that doesn't work. I even went as far as mirroring some of her behaviours on purpose because I felt if I was being accused of the things she was doing, maybe if I mirrored them, she might see what it looked like. That too was a mistake because she saw my actions but still couldn't relate to that being how she behaves. The best part about it was that based on those actions one night she told me I have BPD, so she obviously gets that but doesn't see it in herself. The only thing I didn't do, ever, was spell it out to her. Even the T didn't after his sessions with her, because he said she wasn't in a place to hear and accept it.

Yeah, and really it wouldn't have mattered, and in the end it was about blame.  ALot of it was her fault, but I'm beyond that, because neither of us could fix it.  She was all take and no give, not because she was selfish, but because that was the best she could do.  Time to move on, as painful as it was.  Good luck to us.

You nailed it.  At first in the relationship I was "too contained" for her then "too verbal".  No win situations constantly.

Thanks for chipping in.  Helps me to feel I'm not completely losing my mind.

here's to a new life 

Some predators, while magnificent and beautiful, are best viewed from a distance.

Flynavy,

You actually softened your description of your ex as the thread has progressed.  You started the thread basically dehumanizing her by intellectualizing and scientifically breaking down her actions.  She did sound like pure N, which I think is closer to ASPD and not responsive to treatment.  But you have disclosed some traits that she actually disclosed to you (that you chose to ignore) that indicate her problems with attachment (BPD).  I think people with BPD traits are very treatable, but they first have to realize they want to have a different, more satisfying life and seek treatment.

I am going to throw out a couple of my observations just for fun.  I think you got together with your ex too soon after wife's death, just my opinion.  But anyway, you did, I am guessing b/c you were very lonely and in a great deal of pain.  Jumping in fast with your ex allowed you to cushion the blow of losing your wife.  You jumped in, ignoring the act of jumping in fast as a red flag (I am making the assumption of you jumping in quickly, sorry if you didn't).  You jumped in with someone who you probably knew at some level was not capable of a stable relationship, but went forward anyway b/c you didn't want to be alone.  Ok, so now that it has crashed and burned and now you feel huge anger towards her and describe her in almost monstrous terms while describing your wife in idealized terms.  This way, you can avoid being angry at your wife for leaving you.  You would feel really bad for feeling anger towards for dying, but that is a natural stage of grief. 

People are not all good or all bad.  Relationships are not all good or all bad.

These are just my opinions and it's ok if they p!ss you off, I will understand :)

I am so very sorry for your loss and I wish you happiness peace in your future.

rosannadanna... . Wow... . did I hit someones hot button here!  Are you a diagnosed pwBPD? Kind of sounds like it. Soo... . I do not believe there is a CURE... . for this disorder. As for me... . yeah... . got involved too soon... . I used her to fill an enormous whole I had and she said all the right things to mask my pain.  Yeah, I fell in love with all that... .

With being being angry with my wife for dying... . never... . maybe at God for awhile... . but never at her.  Real love never dies... . when and if you have ever experienced it... . or knew my wife and I... . you would never assume that i could remotely be angry with her for dying... . maybe some people do I guess.  I guess we really did have a great relationship.  I don't talk about/describe my wife in idealized terms... . if you were ever in love for real... . you might understand that.

Yeah I WAS angry at my ex BPD/NPDgf for the unconscionable behavior she exhibited towards me.  Not gonna apologize for making her behavior seem monstrous because guess what... . it was!  Would you call Jody Arias's behavior monstrous? after I found out she was engaged to another man the whole time she was in an intimate relationship with me and I called the wedding off I experienced rage no one should have to see and endure.  My ex pulled a knife on me after physically attacking me with fists and feet.  When I thought she calmed down with me holding her down... . she went for the knife.  Got a feeling its gonna take a lot of therapy for this woman to get better don't you think... . I wasn't the first to experience this with her as I recently learned. 

Bottom line... . I've experienced the so called "fairy tale" love affair with my wife of 32 years I wish that for everyone and I have had a glimpse of hell as well. 

Wishing you well through your journey... . I hope you have experienced true love already... . if not... . wishing you God's speed in finding it for yourself... . its not a Fairy Tale!

I'll vouch for FlyNavy on this.

I lost my wife to cancer too.  She fought it for seven years (was winning) yet was taken very unexpectedly.  Did I get mad at her?  No.  She didn't want to go.  Did I get mad at cancer?  Yes.  Did I get mad that she was gone?  Yes. 

My ex filled a hole after my wife died.  She taught me that I could love after my wife -- and I could love deeply and differently.  For that, I am grateful.  It's too bad that we ended up being incompatible.  I would have gladly spent the rest of my life by her side.

charred... . as clearmind as pointed out to me from the very beginning... . look inside!  I di... . and although I always knew it, this is the first time in my life that being an Adult Child of an Alcoholic has had so much of an impact.  Fortunately my father when he was fifty two quit drinking when he got cancer... . he became the father I never had for his last 19 years of his life.  It was like a miracle... . but the damage of my childhood was done. 

I believe the combination of my childhood experience with this shame/pain coupled with the trauma of loosing my wife was very much like PTSD.  Don't think I ever mentioned in my posts that when I was flying in the Navy... . my best friend in the squadron took my flight went night... . plane went down right off the carrier and all were killed.  I was single at the time... . he had a wife and 2 kids.  So I guess I have had a lot of "stuff" happen in my life that probably all came out when I found out the "camelot" type love I had for my exBPD/NPD fiance was not real... . real for me... . not for her!  My therapy started out as grievance counseling and is now helping with all the above.  I agree that my issues could have stayed buried but this experience with a BPD/NPD opened up the flood gates!  So the pain/anger/hurt was extremely intense.  I am amazed how far I have come with not allowing this to determine the rest of my life!

recoil... . I am so sorry for your loss!  Much like people who have never experienced a relationship with a BPD/NPD person, Only those who have lost the Love of their Life can only understand this devastation.  It was a 7 year battle for my wife as well.  As you probably are aware, we were grieving in our subconscious for 7 years... . just didn't know it because the love for our wives was so profound we focused on the BEING there for them!  But it eventually comes out as you and I know.  My ex actually told me on our first date that she wanted to be my "transition" girl.  She was... . never thought I could be with a woman intimately again... . fall in love again... . I was wrong!... . So i guess there is some lemonade out of all the lemons!

I'm sure everyone who posted to this thread was not aware that the original subject was altered by the moderators... . and rightfully so because on an evening of feeling sorry for myself I started the thread to vent my anger and actually titled the subject... . the BPD/NPD XXXXXX (I used a de-humanizing term here to make an analogy they we were all prey). 

Bottom Line... . for me... . I learned a lot about myself... . and continue to... . cuz I believe that is the only way to truly heal(Thank you again clearmind!).  The only thing we have control over is how we feel, and what we do going forward... . our choice!  I choose freedom from the toxic after thoughts and damage caused by this relationship which I freely chose to be in!  I choose to remember and thank God for blessing me with the opportunity to be in a truly loving caring relationship/marriage to my wife of 32 years... . for family, friends who were/are there for me!  I choose to be open to being in a loving caring intimate relationship with another woman because I want to... . I have way too much more to share and I know it is well worth the risk!  I choose to be aware and not ignore the red flags... . luckily I have a little help from above!

By the way, in the beginning, mine told me "it's OK if I'm your rebound." 

Instead of asking why she said this, I told her it wasn't the case (it wasn't). 

Just goes to show how the disorder impacts many people in similar ways.  They are all different, yet sometimes, eerily similar.

Deep down, I think they know they have issues.

I think they know right at the surface... . my exBPDgf is quite aware of psychology in general and BPD and developmental psychology/attachment theory. What I didn't think to ask was WHY she knew all that stuff... . after the fact I understand.

If people know a lot about something... . there is a reason, they have an interest in it... . and if it is something odd, like BPD... . there is a reason. Few people just decide to learn about it one day. I managed to ignore a lot of  red-flag 's.

Not even sure my hind sight is 20/20 at this point.

The anecdotal stories here contain a lot of suffering. Often those stories resemble emotional scorecards that articulate our pain. An itemized list of sorrows rooted in shame. We describe ourselves as being "drawn in, needy, fooled and manipulated." We not so subtly endorse the notion that attaching to a disordered person is shameful behavior. It isn’t shameful attaching to a person who winds up letting you down. What it does, is present a series of choices. If a person is suffering because they lingered too long in their relationship with a pwBPD, grant yourself absolution and grace. Tilting at windmills is an extremely common human characteristic when matters of the heart are involved. It doesn’t equate to being a lesser human being at all.     

The most debilitating aspect though, is when we shame ourselves for becoming vulnerable with a person who is disordered. Accordingly, we also shame the disordered person for failing to mirror our vulnerability indefinitely--though ab initio they lacked the capacity because of their relational disorder.     

I consider it inconsistent that when we expressed vulnerability with our pwBPD it felt amazingly appropriate, but ex post facto we consider it shameful. I think that is due to mischaracterizing the purpose of vulnerability--it is a state of being. It is both a choice and a gift. In sum total, it advances humanity. We did not debase ourselves by becoming vulnerable with someone who could not conventionally reciprocate. The contrary is true. We shared a humanizing personality trait with a person who suffered a core attachment wound as a young child. That positive act creates good karma. It only becomes a negative when we shame the gift.

Just wow, conundrum. Thank you.

Yes.  I've reminded myself many times since the dissolution of our relationship that she got my best.  Especially important to remind myself of that when I lapsed into self doubt or feelings of inadequacy.  No.  She got my best.  Vulnerability is either there or it isn't, there is no half way for me, and when it is there it is honest and pure and beautiful.  And more than enough.  And I know she felt it, and I know she liked the way it made her feel.  Yeah, things didn't work out, but she felt that honest pure vulnerability and it helped her.  Yes it did, no regrets, no guilt, I was there all the way.

I disagree... . and feel shame is the right thing to feel.

If I had done it once... . it was forgivable. Twice... . I am stupidly forgiving of her, but hey its understandable. All told... . 8 times... . tried and recycled. Many of the people on here have done the same thing. By the later tries... . deep down I knew she lied to me and I rationalized taking her back and being able to "deal with it", but the it was a lack of integrity. I can't deal with the primary person in my life being a 24/7/365 liar at heart... . a manipulator.

And it isn't just that... . to go back and have it work out I would need to be a sort of caretaker for her, absorb even more abuse without returning it in kind... . be a floor mat to this disordered person.

When I first met my exBPDgf... . I was very confident, was an athlete, in a fraternity house, had a Corvette convertible and was president of a successful small chain of minor emergency centers... . I gave that all up when she dumped me the first time... . years later I had re-established myself, had a kid and a wife that I had been with 22 yrs... . and stupidly gave up my marriage, 1/2 of my stuff, a lot of money... . and lost a job due to trying to make an r/s with a disordered woman work... . and I couldn't do it, and despite trying harder than I have at anything... . I failed to accept that she was disordered... . to truly accept what that meant for me... . either abandoning my dreams/expectations and hopes and living a life of misery with her... . or take my lumps and get on with life.  I have been taking lumps... . and one is being humble enough to realize that I am needy enough deep down to have fallen for the lies she told me... . to have ignored the  red-flag 's she put up, to have rationalized her circular screwball non-sense justifications for unjustifiable behavior.

So... . some people can and maybe should forgive themselves... . I don't and am driven to action by it, I was a fool, gave up people and relationships that mattered for someone that is essentially an emotional con-man. Now I am in my fifties, have little of my retirement money left (divorce)... . no wife, my family isn't living with me (daughter)... . and its my doing.

I have learned a lot from this ... . would never have been driven to address many of my issues were it not for the devastation she brought to me, and that I eagerly participated in.  What is there to be proud of in it?

The absence of shame does not beget pride but affords peace. You regret that your desire brought suffering in the form of consequences. Yet during the course of your 30-year relationship those consequences were foreseeable. You could not master your desire because want was confused with need. Therefore insatiable want drives the engine of desire, and the substances that we choose to abuse can be methamphetamine or a BPD woman. The pipe seduces with it's promise of pleasure, but do we blame the paraphernalia. The disordered woman seduces do we blame her or her disorder. We can blame ourselves for the addiction, but being addicted implies loss of volitional control. So as you can see when trying to make sense of irrational desire, blame serves little purpose because the desire is stronger than our free will.

Life is a continuum. It is good to learn and grow. It is not good to separate one' self into half's, declaring that the before will no longer exist in the after. All these are elements of  of our personas, and they remain inside of us even when we constrain them. To shame those parts is to deny our essential natures. To balance those parts brings harmony.