BPD/NPD

[Depression = 72% of members]

Curious thought... . would we/you all be so understanding/sympathetic/still love someone who could lie,cheat,deceive, manipulate, physically and emotionally abuse you if they were just someone with out a disorder... . or... . is there anyone without a disorder who could exhibit this unconscionable behavior towards another human being? 

They are what they are!... . Their behavior was REAL!  I'm still a little upset that we so easily tend to accept bad behavior once we have a disorder we can attribute it to.  I guess if I did the same things to her or anyone for that matter... . I could blame it on me being an Adult Child of an Alcoholic... . just trying to sooth my pain.  Guess what... . I was traumatized as a child but I am not BPD/NPD/Histrionic or a sociopath.  I was able to have a beautiful 32 year marriage to the love of my life. 

I almost have felt/sensed more sympathy for the exBPD/NPDs here on this site because of the enormous pain they must be enduring on a daily basis than for the pain/grief I have had after loosing my wife to Ovarian Cancer.  I guess its human nature to pity the poor alcoholic, drug addict, PD person... . but the rest of us who have had to endure any inappropriate behavior as a result of our relationship with them... . suck it up... . be strong... . cuz there's nothing wrong with you!

Sorry... . Just my final rant on this subject... . its good to vent and not take it out on other people like those who are "sick" can and do on a routine basis.

[flynavy]

Curious thought... . would we/you all be so understanding/sympathetic/still love someone who could lie,cheat,deceive, manipulate, physically and emotionally abuse you if they were just someone with out a disorder... . or... . is there anyone without a disorder who could exhibit this unconscionable behavior towards another human being? 

They are what they are!... . Their behavior was REAL!  I'm still a little upset that we so easily tend to accept bad behavior once we have a disorder we can attribute it to.  I guess if I did the same things to her or anyone for that matter... . I could blame it on me being an Adult Child of an Alcoholic... . just trying to sooth my pain.  Guess what... . I was traumatized as a child but I am not BPD/NPD/Histrionic or a sociopath.  I was able to have a beautiful 32 year marriage to the love of my life. 

I almost have felt/sensed more sympathy for the exBPD/NPDs here on this site because of the enormous pain they must be enduring on a daily basis than for the pain/grief I have had after loosing my wife to Ovarian Cancer.  I guess its human nature to pity the poor alcoholic, drug addict, PD person... . but the rest of us who have had to endure any inappropriate behavior as a result of our relationship with them... . suck it up... . be strong... . cuz there's nothing wrong with you!

Sorry... . Just my final rant on this subject... . its good to vent and not take it out on other people like those who are "sick" can and do on a routine basis.

[fromheeltoheal]

That's why I asked conundrum if he maintained strong boundaries navy.  It takes two to tango, and our exes only did what we let them get away with.  My process of leaving started by enforcing my boundaries, for once, and that didn't go over well at all; finally the only way to enforce them was to leave.  And now detached, I admire who she is and have compassion for her, hate her disorder and what it does to her, and have to stay away to stay healthy.

[Clearmind]

I also began to set boundaries - boundaries are healthy in healthy relationships - sometimes boundaries are not respected - is this a person you want to stay with? If you did stay then why would you want a person in your life who doesn't respect you.

Without or without the disorder - and many here are undiagnosed - wouldn't you want to be treated with respect? If so, then why stay in a toxic relationship?

Maybe she filled a gap for you Fly - replacing the longing you have for your lovely wife. I don't know - just a thought.

[flynavy]

Clear... . I do believe you are right... . she did fill a whole for me... . albeit temporary... . I guess we kind of had a symbiotic using relationship which was destined to fail... . I think I knew eventually I could not be with her as I was with my wife... . but  I chose to stay because she did give me temporary relief from my pain/loneliness with over the top sex... . but even that became shallow for me... . bothered me because I knew i wanted more and she couldn't give it to me... . true love... . she inferred many times she had a hard time with love... . never been in love before she met me... . I told her once that I didn't think she was capable of Love and she never refuted it... . red flag I CHOSE to ignore.

Clear... . you have an uncanny knack for getting me out of the feeling sorry for myself mode... . redirecting me towards looking inside... . only I can fix me... . I want to ... . tired of being angry... . Thanks!  It sucks coming off of a beautiful 32 marriage to a truly beautiful person inside and out to what I chose to endure for the past 2 1/2 years... . guess you can teach an old dog new tricks!

[Clearmind]

Being angry is OK! You have a lot to be angry about….your wife is certainly a wonderful woman who you loved deeply. It’s Ok to grieve – it’s OK to temporarily replace that grief with a new love interest – albeit a disordered one.

Just remind yourself of expectations – your BPDex cannot replace your loving wife. Your BPDex cannot ever live up to the expectations you have of yourself – this is asking her to do something she simply cannot do.

[Conundrum]

Yes, I like it too, thanks conundrum.  I'm curious, have you been able to maintain healthy boundaries with your pwBPD?  I wasn't, and realize that's my issue, and the abuse I allowed makes it impossible to maintain any kind of relationship with her, and I never got to a place where there was no desire, although I do love her, have a great deal of sympathy for her, and find her very interesting and unique.

I cannot answer that in a way that would satisfy you. She is my friend. I do not shame her--ever. She is on the short list of people that I could turn to in an emergency.

Let me see if I can explain this to you. We trigger their shame via our suffering. It repels  like a force-field. It reinforces their belief that they are alien. Being alien is feeling alone. They were alone when abandoned. They want to be loved. That is all.

Boundaries are for property lines and ownership interests. Staking one's line in the sand. The tides come in and wash the boundaries away. It is the nature of the tides. If you feel that you own the sand and can control the tides then living on the beach is risky business. If you go with the ebb and flow you can always sleep under the stars.

[fromheeltoheal]

Yeah, OK, and sometimes there are unannounced tsunamis, then what?  So you seem to have found peace with your pwBPD; what brings you to this board?

[confetti]

Wow... .

[Conundrum]

Yeah, OK, and sometimes there are unannounced tsunamis, then what?  So you seem to have found peace with your pwBPD; what brings you to this board?

The nice thing is that no member has to justify that to another. But since you asked, to learn from others.

[recoil]

Again, beautifully put.

As for me though, ever stand on the sand while the tide comes in/out?  One tends to get dizzy as everything shifts underneath your feet.  Even short stints can cause people to lose their orientation and balance.  If you fall, do you get mad at the sand or the surf?  No.  You laugh at yourself and do a better job keeping your balance next time or walk away.

I believe most people, not all, prefer a more solid foundation for a relationship, one that consists of reciprocity, mutual respect, love/affection and many layers of intimacy.  

My ex had a good heart.  Was the outcome to my liking?  No.  Was it to hers?  I don't think so but who knows.  Life moves on for both of us.  I think I'm finally coming to peace with that.

[Conundrum]

If you fall, do you get mad at the sand or the surf?  No.  You laugh at yourself and do a better job keeping your balance next time or walk away.

"And so castles made of sand melts into the sea, eventually." Recoil, I don't disagree with anything you said. Except we "fall in love" and "we walk off into the sunset."  Black and white. Life more often than not are shades of gray.

I feel for the young people. If their entanglement w/ a pwBPD is among their first truly meaningful relationship. It's so hard. The expectations of marriage and perhaps children. I wish them well on their journey. To not be so scarred that they can't recover. Losing one's vulnerability can become a life-long sentence. That's sad. 

[flynavy]

Conundrum... . I agree... . I wrote this under different topic jsut minutes ago... .

By now many of you read my many posts regarding my ex BPD/NPD fiance.  It seemed like hell for 2 and 1/2 years... . but please be assured that there is true love out there... . I experienced it for 32 years.  You all will find it when you least expect... . like I did.  As I contemplate the last moments with my wife, I am still amazed at the perplexing beauty of being there for my wife, best friend, lover,mother of our children as she breathed her last breath.  The paradox of knowing she is leaving me yet I felt good knowing I helped the person I loved the most to get to a better place with no pain... . no cancer... . no anxiety... . no apprehension. I know this isn't the place for this type of post but you all should know that through all of the pain you are going through right now... . there are caring, selfless, loving people out there!  This should be more than enough stimulus for you all to move forward... . get to know who you are... . what you want and detach from your current toxic relationships!  You all deserve what I had for 32 years... . it will make all of what your going through right now seem so not worth the time we all give it!

[recoil]

Nah.  I don't believe people "fall in love" and "walk off into the sunset".  That's Hollywood.  My late wife died at age 34.  I don't believe in fairy tales.

But I would venture to say that a relationship built on communication, mutual respect and multiple layers of intimacy has a greater chance of lasting than one that isn't, regardless of a BPD diagnosis.  Why build on sand when you can build on granite?

I've come to fully realize that my ex didn't have those qualities.  I'm no longer mad at her for not being who I wanted her to be (the person she was in the beginning).  She tried - she just couldn't sustain it.  I now appreciate her for who she is -- but I won't be trying to build any castles with her.  I'll appreciate her from afar.

As of right now, and I reserve the right to change my mind, I wish her nothing but the best in her future endeavors.  And I wish myself the best as well.  I've had excellent relationships in the past (fourteen years with my late wife).  I will have more.

[whatisthetruth]

Clearmind:

"It’s a way of life – their actions are not predatory. BPD is steeped in shame and self blame and self loathing – they don’t pass a thought at how it affects you because they hurt so so very badly."   

I know she hurts.  I was there holding her as she sobbed after hurting the kids.  i do see her light - but it's what she does to me in the dark times that make it soo hard.

If she could take some measure of responsibility - some - and we could commit to moving forward in therapy... . I'd do my best to embrace the tools to help her/us in communication.

I have given mine an ultimatum.  I know she loves me... . but possibly her ego structure too firm right now? I told her the only way to move forward is with weekly therapy couples sessions, that I am doing work in communication and conflict resolution.  she is uBPD... . so i have to step carefully.

ah god... . my heart breaks.  i love her and know i cant heal her.  and i love her kids and dont want to leave them with her (they arent mine). want to try to stand by her even after all the hell - but not sure she will let me.


I feel angry... . and like a want to duck tape her mouth (joking)... . utterly betrayed at times and i know its almost a compulsion to seek relief for her... . everything... . and im not making excuses... . i see it.

and i still friggin love her.

ah gawd - somebody slap me on the back of the head here.   

[Conundrum]

I've come to fully realize that my ex didn't have those qualities.  I'm no longer mad at her for not being who I wanted her to be (the person she was in the beginning).  She tried - she just couldn't sustain it.  

She was the same person at the beginning and at the end. It was your perception of her that changed.       

[recoil]

She was the same person at the beginning and at the end. It was your perception of her that changed. 

My perception had to change because how she treated me changed.  It's quite normal for people to be "on their best behavior" in the beginning of a relationship and act differently.

There was mutual respect.  There was a lot of affection.  There was laughter and joy.    There was emotional intimacy.  It wasn't perfect, as there is no such thing - but it was very good.

Then she weaned herself off Zoloft and increased her Klonopin use.  Things changed after she altered her medication.  The happiness and joy was replaced by depression.  Respect was replaced by belittling.  The affection was replaced by indifference.  Then the punishment started (one of the last straws was her naming her new puppy after the ex I dated before her).

Sure, she was the same person with the same fears and anxiety she's had her whole life.  But somehow, in the beginning, those fears and anxiety were kept "in-check", either by the idealization phase, medications or pure choice.

[fromheeltoheal]

Yes, we all put our best foot forward at the beginning of a relationship, and off we prance into the honeymoon period, realizing that it is temporary and hoping it will evolve and mature into a mutually beneficial relationship.  My BPD ex didn't have BPD stamped on her forehead, so I went into it assuming she had an ordered personality; turns out I was wrong, and am fully aware I brought my own susceptibility to it, and voluntarily blinded myself, which forms the basis of the project I've made of myself now.

I was able to detach emotionally for a while in the relationship, and could admire the ebb and flow of her pyche from afar, considering it both amusing and strikingly unique, although I decided I didn't want to be in a relationship with someone I needed to stay detached from, and although she was being consistent with who she is, some facets were unacceptable to me. 

Interesting, I have a friend who also had a horrific childhood and in my opinion is BPD, although we've never been more than friends, and I find her very interesting and unique, and maybe the distance we've always had prevents her from being triggered by me. 

I'm now at a place where I've decided what happened was supposed to, there were things I needed to learn, the ride I took on the BPD ship that passed through was a ride I needed and don't regret, and have accepted that expecting it to dock permanently on my shores was a fantasy, but hey, I'm prepping the harbor now for someone capable of dropping anchor long term.  I think conundrum is affecting my writing... .  

[Clearmind]

but it's what she does to me in the dark times that make it soo hard.

I understand that whatisthetruth!

If she could take some measure of responsibility - some - and we could commit to moving forward in therapy... . I'd do my best to embrace the tools to help her/us in communication.

You are requesting something of her she cannot provide. Why do you want to change her? This is who she is. Its either accept it or move forward. Even if you do seek some help for your stuff – which I recommend you do anyway – you cannot force someone into therapy.

I have given mine an ultimatum.  I know she loves me... . but possibly her ego structure too firm right now? I told her the only way to move forward is with weekly therapy couples sessions, that I am doing work in communication and conflict resolution.  she is uBPD... . so i have to step carefully.

Everyone wants to preserve their ego. My guess is you are preserving yours as well – ultimatums are one thing – and if she doesn’t follow through your ego is damaged. Let go of the need to change her.

You will detach when you change your perception of her.  She is showing you who she is – you may need to accept it rather than hang onto the hope she will change.

Love is not enough!

[whatisthetruth]

yes. i hear you... . all of you.

as the fates would have it - she ended the relationship today... . after spending all afternoon at a nudist camp (no joke).  

She ended it after attacking my friends/family whom i defended (fatal flaw).

She then proceed to blame me for the ensuing argument - that she started mind you.

And kicked me out.  Again.

Did I mention I have lost a lot of my friends because of her antics, paranoia, jealousy and isolation?  And my family is back east.

It's occurring to me that she displays the cruelty after I dont give in to her degradation of me.  The thing is I think she wants to break me - really break me.  If I dont stick up for myself she wont respect me, and if I do - she cant abide me... . its a mess.

I was supposed to do the kids with her this weekend, which really means take care of her every whim and the kids too... . "mr mom" i am!  but when she started picking the fight, blaming, criticisms that led to degradation... . I could not bring my self to spend time with her around the kids.  It's a set up for more criticisms.  I told her I thought she and I should take space this weekend and I would spend time with the kids next week (as she originally suggested).  That set her off.  Mind you all of this was by text.

Because if she has to do the kids, then she flips out, then drinks, then hits the kids.

She says we are done for "this next little bit" - then says we are over - then tells me I cant eat the food in the kitchen... . what an effd up nightmare.

and to think i was actually willing to work on this relationship today... . what an idiot.

I believed the mirage - hell i fell in love with the mirage.

I thought I was being a straight up guy by telling her what i was looking for - so if we werent a match at least we'd know straight away. naive and gullible honest me. i will never show my cards like that again.

All that did was give her the information to manipulate me.

ok - i have to figure out where the hell im going to go... . this was my family... . or i believed it was.  





 

[fromheeltoheal]

Mine did that too; it was all about control, which is how she tries to avoid abandonment.  I asked her once if she liked being told what to do.  She said no, and had no idea what connection I was trying to make.  Fantasyland.

[Murbay]

whatisthetruth, I relate to your feelings of frustration. The damned if you do and damned if you don't moments where it's a double edged sword either way. I know from experience that even saying nothing causes accussations of being cold, distant and not validating their feelings so you can't even use that as a way around it either. Drawn into a confrontation that only has one outcome.

fromheeltoheal, I relate to those feelings of control too and your approach. Again, it's something that doesn't work. I even went as far as mirroring some of her behaviours on purpose because I felt if I was being accused of the things she was doing, maybe if I mirrored them, she might see what it looked like. That too was a mistake because she saw my actions but still couldn't relate to that being how she behaves. The best part about it was that based on those actions one night she told me I have BPD, so she obviously gets that but doesn't see it in herself. The only thing I didn't do, ever, was spell it out to her. Even the T didn't after his sessions with her, because he said she wasn't in a place to hear and accept it.

[fromheeltoheal]

whatisthetruth, I relate to your feelings of frustration. The damned if you do and damned if you don't moments where it's a double edged sword either way. I know from experience that even saying nothing causes accussations of being cold, distant and not validating their feelings so you can't even use that as a way around it either. Drawn into a confrontation that only has one outcome.

fromheeltoheal, I relate to those feelings of control too and your approach. Again, it's something that doesn't work. I even went as far as mirroring some of her behaviours on purpose because I felt if I was being accused of the things she was doing, maybe if I mirrored them, she might see what it looked like. That too was a mistake because she saw my actions but still couldn't relate to that being how she behaves. The best part about it was that based on those actions one night she told me I have BPD, so she obviously gets that but doesn't see it in herself. The only thing I didn't do, ever, was spell it out to her. Even the T didn't after his sessions with her, because he said she wasn't in a place to hear and accept it.

Yeah, and really it wouldn't have mattered, and in the end it was about blame.  ALot of it was her fault, but I'm beyond that, because neither of us could fix it.  She was all take and no give, not because she was selfish, but because that was the best she could do.  Time to move on, as painful as it was.  Good luck to us.

[whatisthetruth]

I know from experience that even saying nothing causes accussations of being cold, distant and not validating their feelings so you can't even use that as a way around it either. Drawn into a confrontation that only has one outcome.

You nailed it.  At first in the relationship I was "too contained" for her then "too verbal".  No win situations constantly.

Thanks for chipping in.  Helps me to feel I'm not completely losing my mind.

here's to a new life 

[Wimowe]

So does the tiger when charging its prey. 

Some predators, while magnificent and beautiful, are best viewed from a distance.

[rosannadanna]

Flynavy,

You actually softened your description of your ex as the thread has progressed.  You started the thread basically dehumanizing her by intellectualizing and scientifically breaking down her actions.  She did sound like pure N, which I think is closer to ASPD and not responsive to treatment.  But you have disclosed some traits that she actually disclosed to you (that you chose to ignore) that indicate her problems with attachment (BPD).  I think people with BPD traits are very treatable, but they first have to realize they want to have a different, more satisfying life and seek treatment.

I am going to throw out a couple of my observations just for fun.  I think you got together with your ex too soon after wife's death, just my opinion.  But anyway, you did, I am guessing b/c you were very lonely and in a great deal of pain.  Jumping in fast with your ex allowed you to cushion the blow of losing your wife.  You jumped in, ignoring the act of jumping in fast as a red flag (I am making the assumption of you jumping in quickly, sorry if you didn't).  You jumped in with someone who you probably knew at some level was not capable of a stable relationship, but went forward anyway b/c you didn't want to be alone.  Ok, so now that it has crashed and burned and now you feel huge anger towards her and describe her in almost monstrous terms while describing your wife in idealized terms.  This way, you can avoid being angry at your wife for leaving you.  You would feel really bad for feeling anger towards for dying, but that is a natural stage of grief. 

People are not all good or all bad.  Relationships are not all good or all bad.

These are just my opinions and it's ok if they p!ss you off, I will understand

I am so very sorry for your loss and I wish you happiness peace in your future.

[flynavy]

rosannadanna... . Wow... . did I hit someones hot button here!  Are you a diagnosed pwBPD? Kind of sounds like it. Soo... . I do not believe there is a CURE... . for this disorder. As for me... . yeah... . got involved too soon... . I used her to fill an enormous whole I had and she said all the right things to mask my pain.  Yeah, I fell in love with all that... .

With being being angry with my wife for dying... . never... . maybe at God for awhile... . but never at her.  Real love never dies... . when and if you have ever experienced it... . or knew my wife and I... . you would never assume that i could remotely be angry with her for dying... . maybe some people do I guess.  I guess we really did have a great relationship.  I don't talk about/describe my wife in idealized terms... . if you were ever in love for real... . you might understand that.

Yeah I WAS angry at my ex BPD/NPDgf for the unconscionable behavior she exhibited towards me.  Not gonna apologize for making her behavior seem monstrous because guess what... . it was!  Would you call Jody Arias's behavior monstrous? after I found out she was engaged to another man the whole time she was in an intimate relationship with me and I called the wedding off I experienced rage no one should have to see and endure.  My ex pulled a knife on me after physically attacking me with fists and feet.  When I thought she calmed down with me holding her down... . she went for the knife.  Got a feeling its gonna take a lot of therapy for this woman to get better don't you think... . I wasn't the first to experience this with her as I recently learned. 

Bottom line... . I've experienced the so called "fairy tale" love affair with my wife of 32 years I wish that for everyone and I have had a glimpse of hell as well. 

Wishing you well through your journey... . I hope you have experienced true love already... . if not... . wishing you God's speed in finding it for yourself... . its not a Fairy Tale!

[recoil]

I'll vouch for FlyNavy on this.

I lost my wife to cancer too.  She fought it for seven years (was winning) yet was taken very unexpectedly.  Did I get mad at her?  No.  She didn't want to go.  Did I get mad at cancer?  Yes.  Did I get mad that she was gone?  Yes. 

My ex filled a hole after my wife died.  She taught me that I could love after my wife -- and I could love deeply and differently.  For that, I am grateful.  It's too bad that we ended up being incompatible.  I would have gladly spent the rest of my life by her side.

[flynavy]

charred... . as clearmind as pointed out to me from the very beginning... . look inside!  I di... . and although I always knew it, this is the first time in my life that being an Adult Child of an Alcoholic has had so much of an impact.  Fortunately my father when he was fifty two quit drinking when he got cancer... . he became the father I never had for his last 19 years of his life.  It was like a miracle... . but the damage of my childhood was done. 

I believe the combination of my childhood experience with this shame/pain coupled with the trauma of loosing my wife was very much like PTSD.  Don't think I ever mentioned in my posts that when I was flying in the Navy... . my best friend in the squadron took my flight went night... . plane went down right off the carrier and all were killed.  I was single at the time... . he had a wife and 2 kids.  So I guess I have had a lot of "stuff" happen in my life that probably all came out when I found out the "camelot" type love I had for my exBPD/NPD fiance was not real... . real for me... . not for her!  My therapy started out as grievance counseling and is now helping with all the above.  I agree that my issues could have stayed buried but this experience with a BPD/NPD opened up the flood gates!  So the pain/anger/hurt was extremely intense.  I am amazed how far I have come with not allowing this to determine the rest of my life!

recoil... . I am so sorry for your loss!  Much like people who have never experienced a relationship with a BPD/NPD person, Only those who have lost the Love of their Life can only understand this devastation.  It was a 7 year battle for my wife as well.  As you probably are aware, we were grieving in our subconscious for 7 years... . just didn't know it because the love for our wives was so profound we focused on the BEING there for them!  But it eventually comes out as you and I know.  My ex actually told me on our first date that she wanted to be my "transition" girl.  She was... . never thought I could be with a woman intimately again... . fall in love again... . I was wrong!... . So i guess there is some lemonade out of all the lemons!

[flynavy]

I'm sure everyone who posted to this thread was not aware that the original subject was altered by the moderators... . and rightfully so because on an evening of feeling sorry for myself I started the thread to vent my anger and actually titled the subject... . the BPD/NPD XXXXXX (I used a de-humanizing term here to make an analogy they we were all prey). 

Bottom Line... . for me... . I learned a lot about myself... . and continue to... . cuz I believe that is the only way to truly heal(Thank you again clearmind!).  The only thing we have control over is how we feel, and what we do going forward... . our choice!  I choose freedom from the toxic after thoughts and damage caused by this relationship which I freely chose to be in!  I choose to remember and thank God for blessing me with the opportunity to be in a truly loving caring relationship/marriage to my wife of 32 years... . for family, friends who were/are there for me!  I choose to be open to being in a loving caring intimate relationship with another woman because I want to... . I have way too much more to share and I know it is well worth the risk!  I choose to be aware and not ignore the red flags... . luckily I have a little help from above!

[recoil]

By the way, in the beginning, mine told me "it's OK if I'm your rebound." 

Instead of asking why she said this, I told her it wasn't the case (it wasn't). 

Just goes to show how the disorder impacts many people in similar ways.  They are all different, yet sometimes, eerily similar.

Deep down, I think they know they have issues.