BPDFamily.com

Hi All,

What's your take on this? Mine would claim to not remember what happened sometimes when I would try to get him to talk about it. Other times he would apologize and say he had didn't know why he said/did those things. There were patterns in his disregulation periods. Sometimes they seemed triggered by someone else so he wasn't cruel towards me. He just fell apart, cried, "health problems" would act up and I would need to drain myself to take care of him. My question is when they do cruel things to you do they realize at some level they were bad to you? He sometimes would acknowledge that I had been good to him and didn't deserve being treated like that but after a few days or maybe a few weeks the cycle continued.

I think they do... . But can't face it. or face themselves for it. They know right from wrong & how to function perfectly with everybody else. They HAVE TO KNOW right from wrong to manage to do that.

They know what abuse is, they know what hurt is, they know what broken hearts feel like. They know everything we know. I have to believe that.

From my experience with my own BPDex, they often do and say these hurtful things as a reaction to something.

In fact, towards the end of my relationship with my BPDex, I saw the "change" more and more clearly.  She would get almost wild eyes and I could see the gears turning in her head searching for someone, something else to blame for her behavior actions.  It was nearly predictable after awhile.  They say and do these hurtful things because they are a coping mechanism.  It is MUCH easier to blame someone else and hold them at fault than to admit your own mistakes and short comings and deal with them.  If you can pass off the blame on someone else, and then on top of that make them BELIEVE that they deserve the blame and that it is truly their fault, then you save A LOT of face and all of a sudden it isn't you with the problem.  pwBPD are EXPERTS at this.

They probably do not realize that they are doing it because it is such a primal reaction for them.  I would dare to say that most of the time it isn't even a conscious reaction- they just do it.

I wouldn't go as far as to say they don't remember it... . I think it is a denial thing... . but also, it is such an integral and common tool that they use that I don't think the actions and words hold the same weight for them as they do for us on the receiving end.  You have heard about and probably experienced how a pwBPD can say or do something incredibly hurtful to us as NON's and then an hour later act as though nothing has happened.

It is when we think about things like this and examine their behavior patterns that we can truly glimpse just how disordered and disturbed that they are.

I've definitely struggled trying to figure out my ex's selective amnesia process.  Sometimes I think she doesn't remember, but mostly I think that she's so used to shoving down and blocking out anything that makes her feel shame that sometimes it takes more work to access those memories because they're buried under layers of fluff.  I kind of think of it like when I lend a book to someone and don't remember until I'm looking for it and can't find it, and then I have to think really hard and sometimes ask around before I can remember who I lent it to.  The memory is there in my head, but it's buried.   Granted, those types of things take a while for our minds to file away in the Basement of Unimportant Memories, but I think BPD gives them a sort of express chute into that Basement that they can throw unpleasant events into. 

I think I'm more bothered by the splitting amnesia.  Sometimes (after we split up) we would talk about our relationship and the things that happened and why I left her and it would be a really productive talk that left me feeling like we could stay friends.  Then a few days later she'd disregulate over something and turn on me, and suddenly all the things that we already talked through and worked out are brand new problems that she wants me to feel bad for and explain again.  It made it to where no matter how much progress we made, I knew it didn't matter.  Nothing sticks.  Sometimes she hates me and sometimes she adores me and nothing I do has any effect on which extreme emotion she feels.  It sucks, and it's why I gave up on keeping up a friendship, but I try not to get angry about it because I know she's sick. 

... . doing some research on "dissociation" would be helpful to you  |iiii

Actually this made me think of a line that my ex used so many times, and I think she was honest about that.  Because it was one of these moments she had it hard, and where she could not hide it.  "And you still remember that ? I don't remember it anymore.  I forget so many things... . "

The worse she was behaving at the end, the more she said that.  Even sometimes about more positive things, where the cause of the problem wasn't her behavior but that of others.  

It makes me think a bit of directed (or motivated) forgetting in PTSD... .

Sounds way too familiar to me. Mine did the same, always saying "I didn't say or do that". Even when I played some conversations back to her on my voice recorder, she was still in denial.

Exactly!

If dissociated, they will likely be telling the truth in not remembering.

Mine always says its my memory that was messed up.  That I was "inaccurate" that I was the one who said things and acted like I didn't.  Its sad

Mine acts and says awful things... . But then it is like they are completely forgotten. It's like a hate cycle, but each hate cycle is new. So any contact we did have was full of hate, but she remained in the victim role, and any unvictim like behavior she committed was not remembered, and something I did 12 months ago (that was delt with and reconciled at the time) kept me in the role of perpetrator... .

I believe they remember every cruel action or word.  :)oes this cause pain to those who try so hard to help them?  Yes.  :)o they care?  No.

PwBPD are able to justify in their own minds what they say and do.  If any of you receive an apology, count yourself lucky.  "I am sorry" is rarely part of BPD vocabulary.

Yes, following an incident, they act like nothing has happened.  Why?  Because we deserved whatever nasty thing they said or did.  It is our fault - we make them do cruel things.   ?

I am sure you are very hurt and angry if this is your belief system.


I used to tell my exBPD she sucked at apologizing... . it was true.

What I learned about the disorder is that in order to apologize and feel a healthy sense of remorse, one must have a stable sense of self and the ability to balance emotions.  We know from the criteria of BPD that this is really a tall order to expect.

Does it hurt us, yes

Is it consistent with the definition of BPD - yes.


pwBPD have maladaptive coping behaviors to protect themselves from intense pain.

This can be projection, dissociation, gaslighting etc.

Does it suck to be on the receiving end of this - yes

Is it a fact of the disorder - well, unfortunately yes.

Seeking balance

I am neither hurt nor angry.  It is all part of the disorder.  It is vitally important for nons to learn to let these cruel comments and actions go and not take them personally. 

I agree 100% we must depersonalize  |iiii

This is the Leaving Board; presumably the mistreatment has reached the point where Babushka will not tolerate it any further. If it's time to detach totally, I would indeed take inventory of the cruel comments and actions focussing on how it affected me personally in order to feel relieved that it will not happen anymore. Free at last.

And, in reply to OP, in a word, NO. Mine was usually not aware or felt his behavior was justified. Combination of dissociation and PTSD affecting his perception, plus grave character defects.

My exBPD was very much aware. She knew exactly what she was doing. All the while she was devaluing me and abusing me in the most unspeakable ways she was putting on the charms in front of her new victim and her entire pack of guy followers.

I´m sure the victim was getting all the "I love you more than life itself! You are my souuuul maaate!" bla bla bla that she used to give me all the while I got hate and hostility like I was the devil himself and had killed her mother and father.

They build you up on purpose and then tear you down. You can argue all you want that this is a part of their disease... . but they do it with intent and purpose and it is the most excruciating thing you can go through as their victim. :'(

I think they find it easier to attack someone they know cares about them. Like a child who knows that no matter what they do or say, their parent will love them and look past the mistakes and flaws and out bursts.

I believe they remember. My ex surely has indicated several times with an apology for being an a hole to me. He would never go into specifics but he'd be general in his apology. For him to dissect the situation would be too painful. So a blanket apology would be given to me. I believe he cared that he would say or do hurtful things but what hurt even more was the shame he carried for not having self control before his actions.

If we need to establish if our partner/ex had INTENTION behind their actions or were REACTING to triggers then we would need to be very knowledgable on the differences between sociopathic/narcissistic behaviour, BPD behaviour... . and have a significant other who was diagnosed... .

I can appreciate that sometimes it's easier to be angry at someone who intended to hurt us... .

Newer members here can often find the esoteric knowledge and understanding that the more seasoned have very challenging (I certainly did)... . no one here would excuse BPD acting out behaviour... . but contextualizing it is essential.

It's important that we are all mindful that we are here to assist each other... . abusive behaviour from our partners is just that... . abusive... . focusing on the "why did they do that" is a necessary part of healing... . but the reality is that striving for this knowledge as a way to ultimately ease our pain is futile and moot... . the diversity of individuals and co-morbidity of other disorders at play can leave us bewildered... .

It's far more important to focus on what we have influence over... . ourselves... . ie "why did I accept this"?... .  

My ex BPD would react and say very abusive and hurtful things to me. She would take all her anger and pain towards others out on me. She trusted I would love her and always be there. But a person can only take so much abuse and I had had enough. I was tired of being her punching bag and paying for everyone else's sins. As far as her remembering I do believe she remembered everything she said... . She would often say if I brought up what she said... . I make mistakes and you only remember the bad things. What I am learning in therapy is they have  to forget or push it to the back of their minds. The fact of them seeing themselves as a horrible or bad person only adds to their inner struggle. So they have to "forget" ho  they treat us because admitting it and coming to terms with it only adds more chaos and pain to their world.

In your heart of hearts you really want them to be aware - its a form of pay back for hurting you.

In a dissociated state Borderlines do not recall it like you do. It may be helpful at this point to educate yourself on BPD and accept you cannot place your own judgement of how things are to be done on someone with BPD.

There is a departure from reality in this state and no they don't recall it.

And yes focus on you as it is very tempting to abscond your partner who is ill rather than concentrate on your own reasons for entering and staying in this relationship.

We live with our own shame - which is the reason we abscond. Delve into your feelings of vulnerability.

Awesome video: Power of Vulnerabilty - Brene Brown (http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html)

Clearmind,

You say "In a dissociated state Borderlines don't recall it like we do."

Which I fully agree with. I'd like to ask your opinion on whether you believe they ever have lucid thoughts back to what they've said or done, and do then, indeed recall it like we do?

No! A trigger is something that sets off a memory tape or flashback transporting the person back to the event of her/his original trauma. BPD behavior is steeped in childhood trauma leading to poor/maladaptive coping skills.

To balance this out we are also capable of dissociating to relinquish painful thoughts around trauma/childhood events or situations - so this is not a Borderline ‘term’.

A Borderlines emotions are arrested at around the age of 3. How much accountablity can you place on a 3 yo. Which then means we need to exercise some emotional maturity and accept what BPD is and what the limitations and expectations are, that we can place on our ex's.

If you want pay-back for all the wrongs that were done to you - work on your own self worth - a person with worth does not accept abuse they seek out equally compatible folks/partners who believe they deserve to be treated well - they don't stick around.

Clearmind,

I am definitely not looking for payback or to cause BPD any pain. I am just trying to get some insight into how they think and yes I am dealing with my own emotions: anger, sadness. I still care about him an awful lot but am having difficulty with guilt feeling like I am turning my back on someone who I now know what may be causing their suffering. I feel stuck in a hard place. I didn't want to give up on him but when my physical safety is in question I feel like it won't be received with any productivity if I tell him therapy will help him... . I know he is in pain.

Clearmind obviously answered this quite clearly.

Our MC put it to me this way:

Say there is a car accident (event/trigger) you view it from one side of the street and your partner from the other - even with completely rational people, they very likely may see the same thing differently.

Now, the car accident is about to happen - your pwBPD literally has a mesh blindfold on and can see shadows or hear noises - you are given earplugs... . do you really think you are going to see the same trigger/accident/event in the same way.  Dissociating is like having a mesh blindfold put on and all the fear that would come from deep within comes out somehow - but will you each remember it the same way?  Nope.

Dysregulated (as in the original question) could be dissociation, projecting, gaslighting - etc.  It is not a one size fits all and if dissociation is the mode of dysregulation, it is very likely the pwBPD does not recall it and it is not malicious, it is a by-product of the coping method.

This is confusing me. If they don't think back & see their actions have caused us great pain & upset, why do we talk about them feeling the guilt for it that they can't face or deal with, causing them to seek the new partner so as to avoid facing the one they hurt?

It can be so so contradictory this site (although most its a god send & incredibly helpful).

One minute we're saying they do get it but can't face it so they run. Then we're talking about how they don't get it & rationalize it to thinking they've done nothing wrong. If I continually thought & actually believed I'd done, no wrong I don't see why anyone should think I gathered more & more guilt as life rolled on... . Which is what often seems to be the consensus here.

Exactly what is your question so we can help clear this up.

This comment here is not the same as the original question - which might be part of the confusion.

"causing them to seek a  new partner to avoid facing the one they hurt" - where did you get this based on the facts? 

Well I'm still & constantly learning about this disorder. But as I understood it (And please educate me if I'm wrong)... . This is a shame based disorder & not just shame from their childhood trauma, although that's usually the starting post. I understood that the inability to face things fuels the fire & the disorder which in turn fuels the behavior they show.

Then when in relationships (and there's thousands of accounts of it on this site), they are often noted to have acknowledged that they're no good for us, will hurt us, we're better off without them etc etc etc.

I too experienced various degrees of comments like that from her at different times in my own relationship.

So if they don't look back at thing said & done to those they care deeply for or love, why would they say these things to us?

I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative. I'd love to understand this if I've got it wrong. Thanks.

I'm not an expert, but I believe it's we nons who are shame-based.

The pwBPD is fear and rage based.

The T I spoke to says BPD & NPD are both shame based which is part of what lends themselves so well to each other, with most other disorders being guilt based.

Also agree that we are shame based... . But we face ours, if reluctantly, and that's why we acknowledge we need to look at ourselves & we too need to get healthier. But they don't do that, and that is where the fear comes into the picture. I thought they fear the shame, but know it's there, or there'd be nothing to fear?

I posted it elsewhere and don't have time to look it up again, but in "Understanding The Borderline Mother" there is a cited study that pwBPD have actual memory problems. When they disassociate their brain blocks out memories. My ex would frequently disassociate when she had been drinking. It was perplexing because the next day she would not remember much of anything she had done, like she had blacked out from drinking yet she had not consumed nearly enough alcohol to have blacked out. Then when I read about the memory issues in that book it all clicked in my head and made perfect sense.

Don't worry, I am not taking it as argumentative at all.

I find it easiest to start understanding based on the facts (as opposed to opinions of members here).

As such, article 2 is really really good for getting the facts.

Article 9 is great for US when we get stuck detaching.

I strongly suggest reading Marsha Linehan and for recovery stories, Buddha and the Borderline is great.  Tami Green on youtube is fantastic to watch also.

BPD is a combination of nature and nurture - brain reactions to emotion is more intense  and invalidating environment for someone with really intense emotions.  As pwBPD are raised, the brain itself creates neuron pathways to "soothe" the intense pain.  When a coping mechanism works - it is used again.

If you read the parenting board, you can see that good parents can end up with BPD kids.

The shame you discuss is not necessarily a criteria for BPD - but where we may feel guilt a pwBPD will feel intense shame... . because that is how their brain is wired.  Likely, the "acting out" occurs and unless you are a trained professional, most of life can be an invalidating environment if you really thing about it.

An inability to face things that you mention is the brain protecting itself from the pain - yep, how's that for deep thoughts.  This is largely not a conscious choice by the pwBPD.

Have you ever heard of "self-fulfilling prophecy"?  Well, if someone has an intense fear of abandonment, but believes everyone will leave them - mind you this is not rational, but the brain adapting - can you see how this person may push you away by saying or doing mean things?  It gives them sense of control, a being right.  Again, this is not conscious - it is maladaptive coping through life.

The original question is "do they remember" - the answer is maybe not if dissociated.

Your question seems to be, why do they say these things - to push you away, so that you abandon them. 

Make sense?

Understanding just how fractured a "borderline" mind is can allow us to move past our anger... . and not take things so personally... .

I appreciate it's heavy stuff to take on board but if members wish to research the "MK Ultra" experiments it may help to intellectually frame the level of dysfunction many of us were attempting to cope with in our relationships... .

These documented experiments exposed children and adults to sustained abuse (physical,sexual, white noise etc)... . the purpose was to create highly suggestible human beings who would respond to triggers... . the aim was to create a dissociative state in a person where they would act in a "fugue"... . with little memory afterwards... . some would call it the "fog of war"... .

PwBPD have often experienced sustained abuse at a very young age... . In order to avoid the sheer horror of remembering that physical and emotional pain, they dissociate at times of high stress.  The stress may not be perceived by us... . yet it is very real for them... . We are inadvertantly triggering supressed feelings of rage, shame, grief... . and therefore we are the target for the reaction... . abandonment and engulfment are very real threats... .

That is why the patterns of break ups are such a common theme here... . we become their trigger, our attempt to "be there" for them exacerbates their acting out/in... that is the catch 22 of BPD... . what they crave, they fear... . the maladaptive coping mechanisms which we experience are simply their means of survival.

Newton gave you all great information and to piggy-back here:

Keep in mind, this is how they feel because there is significant evidence that a pwBPD brain has a higher sensory area in the part of emotion... . so there may certainly be very real abuse in a lot of our partners, it also may be perceived abuse and stories recreated to match the emotions.  This is seen on the parenting boards.

This is why it is so important to use the communication tools... . it naturally validates if used properly.

Very true words. This is in fact the only thought/mindset that is offering me any sort of comforting feeling right now. I dream of the day when I have worked so much on myself that I am the person with self worth and boundaries that are strong enough that people of like mind and heart - good, compassionate people - will simply just gravitate towards me.

I had a rough childhood myself and was pretty severly abused mentally and emotionally. Further adding to the pain of my exBPDs abuse of me and breakup is the fact that I now realize how my childhood literally made me a walking, open wound for exBPD or someone like exBPD to infest. She even said to me once verbatim: You (my name) are like a big crusty sore! Someone just needs to scratch the crusts a little and they will crack... .

At the time I didn´t know what she meant. But I realize now she had me figured out at that point in time. What a horrible dynamic of this world: that your own hardships and rough past can make you a target for such predators. .

The things about myself and my past which exBPD unknowingly taught me are etched into my brain and innermost parts of my soul in marble stone!

They are etched with pain.

That´s why I will never forget.

Seeking Balance

Hypersensitivity is very interesting.  I know this is off topic, but... .

My dBPDs is "hypersensitive" to both light and sound.  Although he says he really does not care what other people think of him, he IS hypersensitive to what they say and do, i.e. the neighbors leaving their lights on at night is directed specifically at him.  Slamming doors and having their windows open are as well.

He believes this is harassment:  things done on purpose to annoy him.

He also recalls things from his childhood that he describes as abusive... . primarily statements I supposedly made about him being a loser and a failure.  These statements never happened.  This must be where the "perceived abuse" from his heightened emotions comes into play.  HE felt like a failure, so he "created stories" in his mind (that he believes) which attribute these statements directly to me. 

I always thought he was making things up, but I realize now, he truly believes I said these things.

i cant say for sure but im coming to terms with the fact that i do have borderline tendencies,(only during the break up), and in reaction to the silent treatment, and various really really passive aggressive low blows i lost my head and raged. then we would talk and id feel good, id let go, but my heart felt so broken, i mean it literally was mildy aching for days, weeks months straight so id get so angry that i had to navigate through everything alone after everything i put into the relationship and i was so angry that i had to just go off out of nowhere id send a gazillion angry texts. im hoping its ptsd. but yeah id say some downright cruel things,

so the question was whether they know how cruel they were being, i dont know because im not sure if i am BPD (no cheating, lying, abrupt exits or fights, but like i said i behaved like a vicious pit bull at the break up) if i am BPD- then hopefully this will help telling how i felt, feel. I can honestly say that I was so confused. the break up was a total shock. I dont remember being cruel to him and everything was fine so i didnt see it coming... . plus we were planning to move to a town together, i moved there first then he dumped me via text... . so I literally was all alone, had already spent my money on him and I, I was too hurt to get out and meet people, i had nobody to take me out for drinks and distract me, and i felt SO SO SO rejected, and ashamed because I didnt know for sure if he was right, that I had treated him badly and didnt realize it, so go in these wierd cycles. Id text and just want closure and talk peacefully and feel good for a few days... . then id be in a situation like my breaks would go out in my car and id think of all the money i spent on this person who didnt say thank you and id go into a complete hot headed texting frenzy, which he continued to ignore- which pissed me off more, because he was doing this whole "I am acting like an adult" taking the high road thing... . he was doing no contact on me as though i was nuts which made me nuts. Then hed say something that implied i needed help and that would just send me over the edge, because i felt like anybody that gave so much, babied, took care of, was lied to, dumped by text after living together on my dime would be angry but he couldnt let me be angry that was abusive. then id miss him after calming down and feel HORRIBLE. I still feel horrible, so if i am BPD... . then yes, BPDs do know and feel terrible about the rage.

thing is id pep myself up and be like, im a strong person i can do this, i dont have to handle this so terribly and id text back saying sorry and id genuinly mean it, then he would say something totally ... . again... . very passive aggressive and condescending to get me going again and by the end of the conversation id be raging again. then id find out he was retelling our story to mutual friends making me look crazier and more controlling than i was even acting(hard to do trust me)

the guy knew me. he knew my insecurities, he knew which buttons to press, i think BPDs tell alot about themselves early on and just hand over their baggage too much, so when they feel like they are about to be abandoned you can hurt them more than anybody in the world and they know it. thats how i felt this time along.

ive been abandonned, ive been hurt, but this time was different. the circumstances left me completely shocked, alone, no support, barely any money left, with heartache, and being insulted and ignored i just lost my mind. i had a meltdown. so if im BPD or not, i know that feeling of complete terror and abandonment and it was HORRIFIC. a feeling i cannot put into words. it was so bad that it felt cruel that he wouldnt help me get through it, even knowing full well it wasnt his job after a breakup, but maybe thats what they feel. It was like I needed to depend on the same person who was hurting me so bad that i needed to depend on someone and his put downs, or calm "nice guy" demeanor about me needing to talk to someone through me into more rage, and spewing the most venemous things i could think to say. then feeling the obscene guilt afterwards.

that was probably the longest answer ever, but im trying to empathize and explain what i think a BPD person feels, because i think i felt like one. and i didnt mean the things i said and i did feel guilt but it was like he didnt hear me, he didnt realize how bad it hurt and that i didnt have anywhere to turn this time, and i never saw it coming, and that seemed so unbelievably unfair. i literally had a break down.

I wouldn't beat yourself up too much. I said some nasty things... . I own them. They were horrible. We all can get pushed to breaking point. My exes family thought I was having a break down, I lost it so much. I did the same sent horrible texts. I don't care what people think. I was on the inside. In the week leading up to my "break down" my ex was dysregulating really badly. I then ended up in a situation where I felt I lost my career, and yes I said stuff that was out of order, but there is only so much people can take... .

The important thing is to learn from it. I got into that situation because I wasn't assertive enough before hand. I didn't set a boundary. I had a go... . So since I have been working on being more assertive, and setting boundaries.

If you don't know they are BPD, as I didn't, you expect a functional relationship with a functional person, but that doesn't happen. So forgive them and yourself.