Are they aware of cruel things said/done during disregulation?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi All,

What's your take on this? Mine would claim to not remember what happened sometimes when I would try to get him to talk about it. Other times he would apologize and say he had didn't know why he said/did those things. There were patterns in his disregulation periods. Sometimes they seemed triggered by someone else so he wasn't cruel towards me. He just fell apart, cried, "health problems" would act up and I would need to drain myself to take care of him. My question is when they do cruel things to you do they realize at some level they were bad to you? He sometimes would acknowledge that I had been good to him and didn't deserve being treated like that but after a few days or maybe a few weeks the cycle continued.

[babushka]

Hi All,

What's your take on this? Mine would claim to not remember what happened sometimes when I would try to get him to talk about it. Other times he would apologize and say he had didn't know why he said/did those things. There were patterns in his disregulation periods. Sometimes they seemed triggered by someone else so he wasn't cruel towards me. He just fell apart, cried, "health problems" would act up and I would need to drain myself to take care of him. My question is when they do cruel things to you do they realize at some level they were bad to you? He sometimes would acknowledge that I had been good to him and didn't deserve being treated like that but after a few days or maybe a few weeks the cycle continued.

[Moonie75]

I think they do... . But can't face it. or face themselves for it. They know right from wrong & how to function perfectly with everybody else. They HAVE TO KNOW right from wrong to manage to do that.

They know what abuse is, they know what hurt is, they know what broken hearts feel like. They know everything we know. I have to believe that.

[Octoberfest]

From my experience with my own BPDex, they often do and say these hurtful things as a reaction to something.

In fact, towards the end of my relationship with my BPDex, I saw the "change" more and more clearly.  She would get almost wild eyes and I could see the gears turning in her head searching for someone, something else to blame for her behavior actions.  It was nearly predictable after awhile.  They say and do these hurtful things because they are a coping mechanism.  It is MUCH easier to blame someone else and hold them at fault than to admit your own mistakes and short comings and deal with them.  If you can pass off the blame on someone else, and then on top of that make them BELIEVE that they deserve the blame and that it is truly their fault, then you save A LOT of face and all of a sudden it isn't you with the problem.  pwBPD are EXPERTS at this.

They probably do not realize that they are doing it because it is such a primal reaction for them.  I would dare to say that most of the time it isn't even a conscious reaction- they just do it.

I wouldn't go as far as to say they don't remember it... . I think it is a denial thing... . but also, it is such an integral and common tool that they use that I don't think the actions and words hold the same weight for them as they do for us on the receiving end.  You have heard about and probably experienced how a pwBPD can say or do something incredibly hurtful to us as NON's and then an hour later act as though nothing has happened.

It is when we think about things like this and examine their behavior patterns that we can truly glimpse just how disordered and disturbed that they are.

[causticdork]

I've definitely struggled trying to figure out my ex's selective amnesia process.  Sometimes I think she doesn't remember, but mostly I think that she's so used to shoving down and blocking out anything that makes her feel shame that sometimes it takes more work to access those memories because they're buried under layers of fluff.  I kind of think of it like when I lend a book to someone and don't remember until I'm looking for it and can't find it, and then I have to think really hard and sometimes ask around before I can remember who I lent it to.  The memory is there in my head, but it's buried.   Granted, those types of things take a while for our minds to file away in the Basement of Unimportant Memories, but I think BPD gives them a sort of express chute into that Basement that they can throw unpleasant events into. 

I think I'm more bothered by the splitting amnesia.  Sometimes (after we split up) we would talk about our relationship and the things that happened and why I left her and it would be a really productive talk that left me feeling like we could stay friends.  Then a few days later she'd disregulate over something and turn on me, and suddenly all the things that we already talked through and worked out are brand new problems that she wants me to feel bad for and explain again.  It made it to where no matter how much progress we made, I knew it didn't matter.  Nothing sticks.  Sometimes she hates me and sometimes she adores me and nothing I do has any effect on which extreme emotion she feels.  It sucks, and it's why I gave up on keeping up a friendship, but I try not to get angry about it because I know she's sick. 

[Newton]

... . doing some research on "dissociation" would be helpful to you 

[Reg]

Actually this made me think of a line that my ex used so many times, and I think she was honest about that.  Because it was one of these moments she had it hard, and where she could not hide it.  "And you still remember that ? I don't remember it anymore.  I forget so many things... . "

The worse she was behaving at the end, the more she said that.  Even sometimes about more positive things, where the cause of the problem wasn't her behavior but that of others.  

It makes me think a bit of directed (or motivated) forgetting in PTSD... .

[PDX40]

Actually this made me think of a line that my ex used so many times, and I think she was honest about that.  Because it was one of these moments she had it hard, and where she could not hide it.  "And you still remember that ? I don't remember it anymore.  I forget so many things... . "

The worse she was behaving at the end, the more she said that.  Even sometimes about more positive things, where the cause of the problem wasn't her behavior but that of others.  

It makes me think a bit of directed (or motivated) forgetting in PTSD... .

Sounds way too familiar to me. Mine did the same, always saying "I didn't say or do that". Even when I played some conversations back to her on my voice recorder, she was still in denial.

[seeking balance]

... . doing some research on "dissociation" would be helpful to you 

Exactly!

If dissociated, they will likely be telling the truth in not remembering.

[drv3006]

Mine always says its my memory that was messed up.  That I was "inaccurate" that I was the one who said things and acted like I didn't.  Its sad

[Undone123]

Mine acts and says awful things... . But then it is like they are completely forgotten. It's like a hate cycle, but each hate cycle is new. So any contact we did have was full of hate, but she remained in the victim role, and any unvictim like behavior she committed was not remembered, and something I did 12 months ago (that was delt with and reconciled at the time) kept me in the role of perpetrator... .

[MammaMia]

I believe they remember every cruel action or word.  :)oes this cause pain to those who try so hard to help them?  Yes.  :)o they care?  No.

PwBPD are able to justify in their own minds what they say and do.  If any of you receive an apology, count yourself lucky.  "I am sorry" is rarely part of BPD vocabulary.

Yes, following an incident, they act like nothing has happened.  Why?  Because we deserved whatever nasty thing they said or did.  It is our fault - we make them do cruel things.   ?

[seeking balance]

I believe they remember every cruel action or word.  :)oes this cause pain to those who try so hard to help them?  Yes.  :)o they care?  No.

I am sure you are very hurt and angry if this is your belief system.

PwBPD are able to justify in their own minds what they say and do.  If any of you receive an apology, count yourself lucky.  "I am sorry" is rarely part of BPD vocabulary.

I used to tell my exBPD she sucked at apologizing... . it was true.

What I learned about the disorder is that in order to apologize and feel a healthy sense of remorse, one must have a stable sense of self and the ability to balance emotions.  We know from the criteria of BPD that this is really a tall order to expect.

Does it hurt us, yes

Is it consistent with the definition of BPD - yes.

Yes, following an incident, they act like nothing has happened.  Why?  Because we deserved whatever nasty thing they said or did.  It is our fault - we make them do cruel things.   ?

pwBPD have maladaptive coping behaviors to protect themselves from intense pain.

This can be projection, dissociation, gaslighting etc.

Does it suck to be on the receiving end of this - yes

Is it a fact of the disorder - well, unfortunately yes.

[MammaMia]

Seeking balance

I am neither hurt nor angry.  It is all part of the disorder.  It is vitally important for nons to learn to let these cruel comments and actions go and not take them personally. 

[seeking balance]

It is vitally important for nons to learn to let these cruel comments and actions go and not take them personally. 

I agree 100% we must depersonalize 

[SweetCharlotte]

It is vitally important for nons to learn to let these cruel comments and actions go and not take them personally. 

I agree 100% we must depersonalize 

This is the Leaving Board; presumably the mistreatment has reached the point where Babushka will not tolerate it any further. If it's time to detach totally, I would indeed take inventory of the cruel comments and actions focussing on how it affected me personally in order to feel relieved that it will not happen anymore. Free at last.

And, in reply to OP, in a word, NO. Mine was usually not aware or felt his behavior was justified. Combination of dissociation and PTSD affecting his perception, plus grave character defects.

[IamDevastated]

My exBPD was very much aware. She knew exactly what she was doing. All the while she was devaluing me and abusing me in the most unspeakable ways she was putting on the charms in front of her new victim and her entire pack of guy followers.

I´m sure the victim was getting all the "I love you more than life itself! You are my souuuul maaate!" bla bla bla that she used to give me all the while I got hate and hostility like I was the devil himself and had killed her mother and father.

They build you up on purpose and then tear you down. You can argue all you want that this is a part of their disease... . but they do it with intent and purpose and it is the most excruciating thing you can go through as their victim. :'(

[danley]

I think they find it easier to attack someone they know cares about them. Like a child who knows that no matter what they do or say, their parent will love them and look past the mistakes and flaws and out bursts.

I believe they remember. My ex surely has indicated several times with an apology for being an a hole to me. He would never go into specifics but he'd be general in his apology. For him to dissect the situation would be too painful. So a blanket apology would be given to me. I believe he cared that he would say or do hurtful things but what hurt even more was the shame he carried for not having self control before his actions.

[Newton]

If we need to establish if our partner/ex had INTENTION behind their actions or were REACTING to triggers then we would need to be very knowledgable on the differences between sociopathic/narcissistic behaviour, BPD behaviour... . and have a significant other who was diagnosed... .

I can appreciate that sometimes it's easier to be angry at someone who intended to hurt us... .

Newer members here can often find the esoteric knowledge and understanding that the more seasoned have very challenging (I certainly did)... . no one here would excuse BPD acting out behaviour... . but contextualizing it is essential.

It's important that we are all mindful that we are here to assist each other... . abusive behaviour from our partners is just that... . abusive... . focusing on the "why did they do that" is a necessary part of healing... . but the reality is that striving for this knowledge as a way to ultimately ease our pain is futile and moot... . the diversity of individuals and co-morbidity of other disorders at play can leave us bewildered... .

It's far more important to focus on what we have influence over... . ourselves... . ie "why did I accept this"?... .  

[willtimeheal]

My ex BPD would react and say very abusive and hurtful things to me. She would take all her anger and pain towards others out on me. She trusted I would love her and always be there. But a person can only take so much abuse and I had had enough. I was tired of being her punching bag and paying for everyone else's sins. As far as her remembering I do believe she remembered everything she said... . She would often say if I brought up what she said... . I make mistakes and you only remember the bad things. What I am learning in therapy is they have  to forget or push it to the back of their minds. The fact of them seeing themselves as a horrible or bad person only adds to their inner struggle. So they have to "forget" ho  they treat us because admitting it and coming to terms with it only adds more chaos and pain to their world.

[Clearmind]

In your heart of hearts you really want them to be aware - its a form of pay back for hurting you.

In a dissociated state Borderlines do not recall it like you do. It may be helpful at this point to educate yourself on BPD and accept you cannot place your own judgement of how things are to be done on someone with BPD.

There is a departure from reality in this state and no they don't recall it.

And yes focus on you as it is very tempting to abscond your partner who is ill rather than concentrate on your own reasons for entering and staying in this relationship.

We live with our own shame - which is the reason we abscond. Delve into your feelings of vulnerability.

Awesome video: Power of Vulnerabilty - Brene Brown

[Moonie75]

Clearmind,

You say "In a dissociated state Borderlines don't recall it like we do."

Which I fully agree with. I'd like to ask your opinion on whether you believe they ever have lucid thoughts back to what they've said or done, and do then, indeed recall it like we do?

[Clearmind]

they ever have lucid thoughts back to what they've said or done, and do then, indeed recall it like we do?

No! A trigger is something that sets off a memory tape or flashback transporting the person back to the event of her/his original trauma. BPD behavior is steeped in childhood trauma leading to poor/maladaptive coping skills.

To balance this out we are also capable of dissociating to relinquish painful thoughts around trauma/childhood events or situations - so this is not a Borderline ‘term’.

A Borderlines emotions are arrested at around the age of 3. How much accountablity can you place on a 3 yo. Which then means we need to exercise some emotional maturity and accept what BPD is and what the limitations and expectations are, that we can place on our ex's.

If you want pay-back for all the wrongs that were done to you - work on your own self worth - a person with worth does not accept abuse they seek out equally compatible folks/partners who believe they deserve to be treated well - they don't stick around.

[babushka]

Clearmind,

I am definitely not looking for payback or to cause BPD any pain. I am just trying to get some insight into how they think and yes I am dealing with my own emotions: anger, sadness. I still care about him an awful lot but am having difficulty with guilt feeling like I am turning my back on someone who I now know what may be causing their suffering. I feel stuck in a hard place. I didn't want to give up on him but when my physical safety is in question I feel like it won't be received with any productivity if I tell him therapy will help him... . I know he is in pain.

[seeking balance]

Clearmind,

You say "In a dissociated state Borderlines don't recall it like we do."

Which I fully agree with. I'd like to ask your opinion on whether you believe they ever have lucid thoughts back to what they've said or done, and do then, indeed recall it like we do?

Clearmind obviously answered this quite clearly.

Our MC put it to me this way:

Say there is a car accident (event/trigger) you view it from one side of the street and your partner from the other - even with completely rational people, they very likely may see the same thing differently.

Now, the car accident is about to happen - your pwBPD literally has a mesh blindfold on and can see shadows or hear noises - you are given earplugs... . do you really think you are going to see the same trigger/accident/event in the same way.  Dissociating is like having a mesh blindfold put on and all the fear that would come from deep within comes out somehow - but will you each remember it the same way?  Nope.

Dysregulated (as in the original question) could be dissociation, projecting, gaslighting - etc.  It is not a one size fits all and if dissociation is the mode of dysregulation, it is very likely the pwBPD does not recall it and it is not malicious, it is a by-product of the coping method.

[Moonie75]

This is confusing me. If they don't think back & see their actions have caused us great pain & upset, why do we talk about them feeling the guilt for it that they can't face or deal with, causing them to seek the new partner so as to avoid facing the one they hurt?

It can be so so contradictory this site (although most its a god send & incredibly helpful).

One minute we're saying they do get it but can't face it so they run. Then we're talking about how they don't get it & rationalize it to thinking they've done nothing wrong. If I continually thought & actually believed I'd done, no wrong I don't see why anyone should think I gathered more & more guilt as life rolled on... . Which is what often seems to be the consensus here.

[seeking balance]

This is confusing me. If they don't think back & see their actions have caused us great pain & upset, why do we talk about them feeling the guilt for it that they can't face or deal with, causing them to seek the new partner so as to avoid facing the one they hurt?

Exactly what is your question so we can help clear this up.

This comment here is not the same as the original question - which might be part of the confusion.

"causing them to seek a  new partner to avoid facing the one they hurt" - where did you get this based on the facts? 

[Moonie75]

Well I'm still & constantly learning about this disorder. But as I understood it (And please educate me if I'm wrong)... . This is a shame based disorder & not just shame from their childhood trauma, although that's usually the starting post. I understood that the inability to face things fuels the fire & the disorder which in turn fuels the behavior they show.

Then when in relationships (and there's thousands of accounts of it on this site), they are often noted to have acknowledged that they're no good for us, will hurt us, we're better off without them etc etc etc.

I too experienced various degrees of comments like that from her at different times in my own relationship.

So if they don't look back at thing said & done to those they care deeply for or love, why would they say these things to us?

I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative. I'd love to understand this if I've got it wrong. Thanks.

[SweetCharlotte]

I'm not an expert, but I believe it's we nons who are shame-based.

The pwBPD is fear and rage based.

[Moonie75]

I'm not an expert, but I believe it's we nons who are shame-based.

The pwBPD is fear and rage based.

The T I spoke to says BPD & NPD are both shame based which is part of what lends themselves so well to each other, with most other disorders being guilt based.

[Moonie75]

Also agree that we are shame based... . But we face ours, if reluctantly, and that's why we acknowledge we need to look at ourselves & we too need to get healthier. But they don't do that, and that is where the fear comes into the picture. I thought they fear the shame, but know it's there, or there'd be nothing to fear?