BPDFamily.com

I am married to a really great man who unfortunately was previously married to an unBPD and had two boys with her. They have been divorced 5 years, and she has been remarried and divorced in that time. She has also moved 8 times in 5 years in between 3 states.

The original custody agreement was shared 50/50. 3 years ago she met a man on the internet who lived 75 miles away, and immediately moved in with him and married him a few months later. At that time, she would have the boys every other weekend and during summer vacation (except when she would lock her keys in the car, was sick, some made up relative would die, etc. and she would bail at the last minute). We modified the custody agreement to reflect these changes. A year later she got divorced, and asked their dad to keep the boys while she figured out where she was going to live. She moved in with her parents on a pull out couch for a month, then with no warning told him she was moving 9 hours away to live in the spare bedroom of a distant cousin that my husband had never even heard of. Therefore we no longer did the every other weekend thing, just alternating holidays and summer. Great for us, except he is still paying child support even though they don't live with her.

A few months later she moved to another city 12 hours away, again to live with some new distant relative. She did not notify my husband or the kids of this move, but we found out through other means. He never told her that he knew she moved, was just waiting for her to tell since she is required to by the custody agreement. a couple of days before summer vacation she called to tell him that she had moved and the kids would be spending the summer with her in new random city with random relative. Also of note, she has not held a job since their divorce and lives off CS/Alimony/payout from his family business.

The boys are 11 & 14, so are at an age where their sports and friends are their whole world. She drags them away from their friends and activities to spend the summer with her in a place where they know no one and have zero friends. They spent this entire summer inside watching movies and video games because it was 110 degrees everyday. At our house they spend most of their time outside playing sports or riding bikes with friends.

So, we have prepared legal papers to change the custody yet again to reflect the new situation, but are waiting for the boys to come home before we file them because my husband wants to protect them from her rages and also make sure that she returns them. She clearly doesn't want them, which is obvious from her various moves away from them but she needs the CS since she has no job and the alimony payments end in a month.

I am afraid of her wrath when she gets the papers and sees that she will actually have to pay CS instead of receive it. She moved AGAIN last week (new boyfriend!), and now is only 2.5 hours away and is actually paying rent for the first time instead of mooching off family. The kids told us that she ordered a new car, too. I am afraid that she will fight for the weekend visitation because that would mean she will still get CS. Weekend visits don't work anymore for the boys due to their sports schedules but she has said many times that she doesn't care about their sports and they are afraid to stand up to her because of the guilt trips she lays. We also know that when her new relationship ends she will move again and who knows where it will be so we intend this custody agreement to be final and take that into account.

We have the resources and determination to get this done, but she is so manipulative we worry about how the courts will view her. She does not have the money to fight this (our attorney also put language in making her pay our attorneys fees if she contests and loses), but you all know how much these people freak out when they lose control so she may fight just for spite. We have a lot of ammo, including a DUI she got 2 years ago when the kids were with her and she blew a .25 (she doesn't know that we know about that). I just don't know if it's enough to get her visitation reduced to less than 6 weeks a year.

Do any of you have experience with the legal system and how to get the best results?

 The most important thing is to make sure you present everything in terms of how these moves and all this instability affects the kids. Not you. Court doesn't care so much about whether or not you're footing her bill, and how that makes you mad, etc. That's a footnote. "Instability in defendant's life has had a negative impact on the boys and here is the documentation to substantiate this claim." It may be more important that she rages at them than whether or not she can consistently take them during her time -- but even so, include all the moves and the instability as context.

Also, I hate to say this, but the fact that they play video games and watch tv for a summer instead of riding bikes and hanging out with friends -- that probably isn't enough to qualify as "substantial change in circumstances" or however the court phrases a cause for change in custody. More likely it's the instability and impulsive, erratic behavior + rages. Definitely not a good environment for kids.

Be prepared, too, that the courts may give her a chance to fail. They could say, "If you don't abc by such and such a date, then xyz will happen."

Most of these motions that we file take a long time. Be prepared for baby steps, unless she seriously dysregulates during her court appearances.

Yeah, I got baby steps too.  However, one of the things to include is a list of her history of lessened parenting and contact.  If you just write "she always... . " it will be seen as undocumented and more like "he said, she said".  Give some details such as the times she has the children.  Once you establish the actual history for the past YEARS (minimal parenting, moves, distance, behaviors, etc) hopefully the court won't seriously believe her new claims to restart more parenting.

By the way, it's a bit unusual for one parent to have the children all summer.  Maybe the majority but not all, you too should have an opportunity for a month or so, or at least a few weeks for summer vacations.

In my case, my ex is super possessive, paranoid about everyone but her being probable (her word) child abusers.  We had a two year divorce and afterward it took 3 years to get custody but time stayed equal.  The GAL in 2011 though that leaving it at 50/50 would allow her to get child support and that getting it would make her more stable.  I saw it as enabling.  I was right, she kept causing problems.  So I filed for majority parenting time last summer.  That supposed simple motion is still pending, her lawyer has filed 4 continuances and got 2 or 3 of them, the next hearing is scheduled for October, making it at least a 15 month case, probably longer.

I am sure my ex will play the poor card, but the reality is that being poor shouldn't be a driver in a case.  (That's why it went wrong in 2011.)  Priority should be what's best for the child, then the financial aspects are figured afterward.  I'm focusing on her history of paranoia, claims son isn't safe with anyone she hasn't approved, etc.  The latest is is that he's starting middle school and he and I both think he can come home after school on my days and be there until I get home from work.  Well, ex says she's going to take him home with her.  I don't know if she's thinking to snag him from school or my home, but I have requests in to my lawyer and his GAL for an opinion.  I'm prepared to file Contempt of Court if she does.  I can't afford it but hey, the ex, lawyers, court, divorce, support, alimony, etc have taken it all, may as well let them take what little is left.

Sounds like you have a good case, but is it worth paying the legal $$$ to get her to pay child support?  Maybe if you ask for less money from her, she won't fight you as much?  You could save that for the negotiations.

Hi mt grl,

*welcome*

I'm a stepmama as well to three lovely girls - whose mama suffers from BPD. She likes to move a lot too. :)

In my [limited] experience, the courts advocate for the "best interest of the children". So like livednlearned stated, it has to be about them. There is also an expectation that the kids are "entitled" in having a relationship with both parents - even when one struggles.  As the custodial parent, there is an expectation that you are willing to help facilitate a relationship with the other parent. (Which it sounds like you've done so far!) So when you are asking the courts to start reducing the time she's been having with the kids, the reasons do need to be valid and properly solidified with your reasons as to why. i.e. "We are concerned about their safety when with mom" would be valid with the DUI as your reason to be concerned. It would also be something she can rectify - which places the ball in her court as far as showing the court that there should not be a concern for the children's safety (i.e. proof of completing a drug and alcohol program, reinstating her license, etc).  

Same as your concerens about her instability - how does this [specifically] affect the children? In my situation, I have 1 stepdaughter who lives with us full time because of the anxiety that moving all the time has caused her - the other two don't care one bit. They just want to be with their mama wherever her fleeting heart seems to take her. :)

Sports and friends is also a valid reason, but to me, is a subjective "value".  Not all families share the same value that sports are more important then every other weekend visitation with mom.  But say if there was a therapist (or other professional involved) that was saying "these kids struggle with [insert anxiety, depression, feeling part of something] and really benefit from playing these sports, it's important for them to be part of a team, have and outlet and develop these social skills."

Do the kids see a therapist?

If there is a Custody Evaluation, will the kiddos be on the same page as you?  

When I read what you've shared, it sounds like she is an OK mom? Meeting minimum expectations?

What is your proposed parenting schedule?

~DreamGirl

How do the boys feel about their mom ? Do they want to see her more or do they not really care ? In my mind the distance would be a factor for me since she is so far away. 50/50 is not practical or in the children's best interest. The fact that mom has moved that distance and moved several times etc... and still maintained a distance would indicate she has other priorities. That should be documented in chronological order with dates, locations, distances, etc.

Maybe offer an option that doesn't have anybody paying CS to anybody - one less thing to fight over.  Sounds like by the normal formula, she would pay you, but if you don't need the money, and if she is willing to play nice, maybe that's something to give up, just to help settle the issue.

As everybody else says, the key is to put forward what you think will be best for the kids, and why.  If you can document all those moves, and that she doesn't work, and that the kids will be away from friends and activities, those seem like pretty good reasons.

You have a lot of things on your side.  But court sometimes hates to have things too lopsided.  So while you can be prepared to relent and make concessions on some things, don't feel you have to roll over just because the ex demands it.  PwBPD make all sorts of ridiculous demands, doesn't mean they will ever be ordered.

If you can, keep it simple.  "Here is the time spent with dad, here is the time spent with mom.  It has been that way for X years.  Therefore the order is outdated and should be modified to reflect the children's lives."  If ex demands more time now, just point to the established history.  Ex will try to divert the case, adding distractions, disinformation, emotionally compelling claims and blaming but with no facts.  Keep on topic at every hearing.  As with my ex, any delay will only help her keep CS even longer, so expect her to try to delay as much as she can.

About the summers, it might be best for you to take summer vacations at the beginning or end of the summer if she is really distant.  Or if she's closer then vacations in the middle.  It is good to get the kids back a couple weeks before school starts so they can get settled - and so you have some time to rush to court if they don't come back in time.

"She needs the CS."  Yes, mine says she needs hers too.   Fact is, she's not married to the kids' dad any more.  She's an adult and if she's the minority time parent then she has to face the reality that she is responsible for herself, at the very least.  However, it is best to make it all about (1) the kids and (2) dry calculations.  The ex, on the other hand, will try to make it all about emotionally compelling sideshows.

Unless you need the money, you may decide to drop the court's typical requirement for minority time parent to pay CS.  You could let her delay payment for a year of two with the stated purpose to help her in her transition away from living off CS.  Probably shouldn't offer it up front, don't even mention it but keep it in mind in case it will help with negotiations later on.  (Matt will confirm that you don't make your best offer first.  Then ex will still want more concessions.)  Most cases go so slowly that the parents do end up settling.  Judges like that, settlements can't be appealed and they hopes the parents feel better with a settlement rather than a judges decision.

Thanks for your responses. It's nice to know that we are not the only ones going through this.

The CS is the least of our concerns. It is her major concern. We are planning to use it as a negotiating tactic, if she agrees to the modifications we will drop the request for CS from her. We also plan to negotiate her visitation too. We have requested she get 4 weeks in the summer but will go up to 6 weeks. I feel like if she somehow thinks she is getting something from us she will give in.

Our modification request is well written as you all have suggested. It is just the facts, timeline of the moves, etc. Just this past week the older son tried out for varsity soccer and was one of only 2 freshman to make the team. The coach had a meeting and told everyone the practices are mandatory with no exceptions and missing practice means you will not suit up for a game. Well, his mother refused to bring him to THREE practices that week so we don't even know if he is still on the team. I just added that to the modification document. Hopefully that will hold sway with the judge.

I am afraid of how long this will be tied up in court, with them having to spend weekends with her. Ugh.

I was thinking the same thing... . it sounds like maybe she doesn't have a lot of money so what if you just made an arrangement to where she didn't have to pay anything, or have it be a very minimal amount?  That is, unless you really need the CS from her.  It's one less reason for her to be mad and she might even look at it as a plus that she doesn't have to pay you.  On the negative side, she would have to give up the CS she is getting from you, so that might not go over so well... .

I live in Pa. My atty was adamant that CS can not be used as negotiations in a custody issue. The court system I am in looks at that in a very negative way. Double check with your atty to make sure that is okay. It might just be a local issue.

Well, the ball is rolling or rather creeping at the petty pace of the court system. First of all, when she dropped the boys off for the school year she said nothing about wanting to start EOW visitation again and never asked for them for the entire month of Sept. She did ask to see them for fall break, but at the last minute said she had to work late that Friday night so she would pick up Saturday afternoon. That Friday happened to be the day she was served with the court papers at 6:52 at her home. She called DH screaming about how he had her served at home while she was having a BBQ! Wait, I thought she had to work? She is having a hard time keeping track of her lies.

Her response to the custody modification was to say that custody should stay the same (our L was surprised she didn't ask for custody as is normal) and that she should receive more CS because her income has decreased (not sure how she arrived at that since she had no income last time so it was imputed at minimum wage). All of her requests for production were regarding DH's income & assets, nothing about the kids. A couple of weeks later, she "accidentally" texted DH a text meant for her BF talking about the party they were having to announce their surprise... .a baby! She has dated this guy 6 months, 4 of those long distance. We both suspect that there is no baby, that this is her way of getting him to marry her. She faked a pregnancy with my DH after they separated, but he has a vasectomy so her plan didn't work.

One of the things we have to supply is a witness list, so I suggested we call her exH of less than a year to find out what she was like during the 2 years he lived with her. She had warned my DH not to talk to him because he was a "bad guy". He is actually quite nice and happy to talk to us. He told us that he divorced her because of her drinking. He said she drank all day long and as soon as he walked in the door from work she demanded that he drink with her and stay up until the wee hours with her. he couldn't handle it. Even though she didn't work she couldn't manage to get the laundry done, so he started doing it and he was finding empty fifths in her drawers and boxes of wine in the laundry. I asked if she had tried to fake a pregnancy with him, and he said yes, after they split she told him she was pregnant but he did the math and knew it wasn't his. She went so far as to email him an ultrasound photo of their baby, and this summer emailed him to tell him that their baby girl was walking! He said it would have been 3 months old.  he also told us that she tried to drag out the divorce and get half of his retirement, but he called her told her that he would be happy to go to court and tell all of her dirty secrets. She dropped it and signed the papers. he also said that he would be happy to be a witness for us because he thought it was best for the kids to be away from her.

She received our responses to her info requests including the witness list last week and she is panicking. She called and said her attorney advised her to try to settle and that DH should make an offer. I typed up the offer, sent it to the L to review and DH emailed it to her yesterday and told her to respond by email. Of course his phone rang immediately and she left a message to call her ASAP. He didn't respond. She then called multiple times late last night while he was asleep. He asked me if he should call her and I said no, you told her to send you an email and you need to stick to that. She needs to learn to accept boundaries. I think he is a little angry at me for telling him how to handle her, but his way of handling her is the reason we are in this situation 5 years after their divorce because he caves in to her every time.

So, my question is this... .our settlement offer was not favorable to her as it was meant to be a base point for negotiations. No more EOW, reduce her summer to 4 weeks, and alternate holidays. We offered to waive CS requirement for her and offered one more month of current CS paid to her. We asked that pickup/dropoff times/locations be agreed to in writing 48 hours before and if she tries to change then DH can cancel the visit. And asked that all communication be in writing. We are not willing to budge on weekend visits, but will give her an extra week or 2 in summer and we will give a few more months of CS. My DH thought it was a little harsh, but I deal with lawsuits and settlements on a daily basis at work and this is what you do when you are in the better position and the other party does not want to go to trial for fear of what will happen. My feeling is that it won't get any worse than our current situtation because a judge will not uproot the boys from their living situation that has been working well for more than 4 years. It has the potential to get much worse for her.

What is your experience with imposing limits on BPDs? Will she throw a fit but eventually accept it or should we just plan on this going to court? We gave her until tomorrow to accept the settlement and if no response or agreement then we will schedule the trial date and depositions.

Most of our cases, including mine, "settle on the courthouse steps";  that is, they settle but not til just before the trial.

My suggestion would be, do nothing, except prepare for trial.  Do not "counter your own offer", or you will be teaching her that if she digs in her heels she'll get a better deal.  Do not talk with her about the case - as you're doing, give her the option to respond by e-mail or through your lawyer.  Don't entertain any verbal "offer" from her - only accept a written response, accepting your offer or making a counter-offer.

By preparing for trial, you will show her that you have a strong case - she'll see you are planning to bring in witnesses, and she'll see that you have a plan, you're not being passive or winging it.

If she wants to meet with your lawyer, accept that but with limits.  Ask for a counter-proposal, in writing, in advance of the meeting (or what is there to talk about?).  Limit the time of the meeting - maybe an hour, for example.  Don't go around and around with her;  if she asks you to make a concession, either agree to it or say no, and move on - no arguing or circular conversations.  Let your attorney know that he should not extend the time - you will give him a signal if you think a longer discussion is sensible - you're paying the bills so you get to decide how much of his time you're willing to pay for.

But mainly just wait.  If she asks for more time for her response - "I'm preparing a counter-offer and I need til next Monday." - you might decide that's reasonable, and extend the time your offer is on the table by a few days.  But you're wise to put a limit on it - a week or two max.

As the trial date approaches, the other side will almost certainly cave in, and either accept your offer - "Can we go back to what you offered in December please?" - or agree to something you're OK with.  You'll have spent money preparing for trial, but saved the cost of the trial itself.  It would be great if you could sit down with her and work things out now, but that probably won't work;  anybody unethical enough to falsely claim to be pregnant can't be trusted to bargain sensibly or in good faith.

Yes she will throw a fit.  Whether she will accept it is iffy, she may think she can still wriggle out of it or weaken the terms.  She especially won't like the loss of any child support.  (My ex works but she's never verified her earnings so the court has always defaulted to imputing minimum wage.)  I suspect you'll have to at least proceed with the filing and getting the case scheduled for court hearings, after waiting a few extra days just in case.  It's possible that she will put off a settlement until the very last moment when she finally realizes she can't sidestep or overwhelm H's boundaries.  Around here last minute settlements "on the court house steps" - that is, when there are no other ways to delay - are not uncommon.

If she drinks that much, would it be better to schedule multiple shorter summer visits?  For example, perhaps two weeks twice during the summer spaced so they won't interfere with your own vacation plans?  An entire month at a time would be too long for her, wouldn't it?  Reserve the first and last weeks of summer for yourselves, so you can be sure the school years end and begin without interference.  Does she get additional vacation time?  If so, make sure there are clear advance notification requirements, etc.

Having her cooperative exH on the witness list is a good move, fairly safe leverage.  Their marriage is over, they have no children together, so she should have little or no leverage to subvert him.  Her excessive drinking by itself may or may not be seen as significant by the court, but it would be more impactful if exH confirmed she did drink to excess even when she had the children.

Hi! I am also a member of the step-mom club. I'm always so grateful when I see others on here. So much of what you said (i.e. kid's dad being too quick to cave to unreasonable demands and boundary busting) has also been my experience.

A couple of thoughts:

-The court is going to want the kids to be able to have a meaningful relationship with their mother. In my situation the kids live with their BPD mom three states away. In a couple of years (if we don't get custody) they aren't going to want to miss sports and time with friends to come see their dad. We would hope the court wouldn't take away his six weeks that he now gets. See what I'm saying?

-The way our parenting plan works is that we get one weekend a month where we can go to the area where the kids live, find a place to stay, and get parenting time with them which includes taking them to their sports and activities. It would probably be totally harmless to offer something like that in your case as from the sound of it she would probably never use it, but then at least that gives her the option.

I think you are in a really good position. You will probably get a lot of emotionally charged push back but if you stick to your guns you should be fine. The one thing I can tell you to look out for is the lawyer who may take her on pro bono because she's "a poor mother being bullied into a bad situation." *eyeroll*

You could also file a motion asking the court for random drug/alcohol screening for both parents.

Matt, thanks for your input from your experiences. I believe too that a last minute settlement will be her style. The thing she fears most, and this was confirmed by her exH, is being exposed for who she is really. And I feel that right now her biggest fear is that her new BF finds out about all of her past history especially the drinking (he doesn't drink and she hides hers) and fake pregnancies before she gets the ring on. We have also put him on our witness list because we know that she visited him several times and cancelled her visitation to do it. I think we will reserve the drug/alcohol screening for future use if she continues to fight.

ForeverDad, one of the stipulations of the settlement offer was that the court case would continue to proceed until a signed settlement has been filed with the court. That means she is still required to submit her responses to our discovery by the 25th of this month and she does not want to do that because it will be very difficult for her to admit to everything she has done. We can think about multiple shorter visits during the summer, but she is very difficult to work with on visitation so limiting it to one pick up and one drop off would be so much better for everyone. We are asking her visitation to start after July 4 and end the 1st week of August so that it doesn't interfere with sports and school. That is actually why we started this in the first place because she will not honor their commitments to these things.

Nope, you are so right about the meaningful relationship thing but that is hard to maintain when the mom keeps moving further away and shows no interest in their activities. They don't even want to take her phone calls. I like the idea of offering a weekend visit in our town. I will run that by DH and see what he thinks. You are correct taht she probably won't use it but the offer is there for more visitation.

A weekend visit in our town... .at her expense of course.

Yes, exchanges are sometimes hard for me too.  Fewer exchanges = better.

So this supports a strategy - what I believe is usually the best strategy in high-conflict cases - of getting all the relevant information out in the open - information not accusations - and staying confident that with the right information the case will go well.

You may get push-back from your attorney, or family or friends, or from yourself - "Be nice." or "Maybe it's better to keep some of that out of the public record." etc.  Where I live, divorce information isn't "public" - it's not something anybody can find out - it's information for the judge to look at.

Pretty much all the progress on my case came because I got relevant information in front of the court.  As that happened, the other side came to the table and we were able to work out an OK solution.

Matt- I totally agree with you and have been pushing for this but the lawyer and my DH think that they need to hold a few cards in hand. I don't understand that because the more that she knows that we know, the more terrified she will be. For instance, she does not know that we know about her excessive DUI. I was all for sharing that with her, but the attorney wanted to hold back and make her produce her criminal record. If we are trying to avoid the courtroom, why hold onto that until we get to the courtroom? with these BPDs, I believe in overwhelming force not advance and retreat.

And yes, all of our information is documented via texts, witnesses and journals with specifics dates and locations, etc. No general accusations like "she always cancels her visits" but rather "on May 23, she texted that she would not be using her requested Memorial weekend visitation with the boys".

See if your attorney has any experience with similar cases.  The way to find out is to get him to tell "war stories" - nobody's name of course - but examples of similar cases, how he handled them, what lessons he learned, etc.

If he has experience with similar cases, he may know what he's doing - the best time and way to disclose information.  For example, in my state, you have to give the other side a copy of any exhibit you plan to use.  So as you gather evidence, you copy it to the judge and the opposing attorney, and they can see very clearly what case you are building.  Good!  So they know they are going to lose, based on evidence, and they are motivated to come to the table.

It might work differently where you live, and your attorney may be experienced in high-conflict cases, and may be able to tell you why it's best to wait.  But if he has no war stories like your case, he may be bluffing - claiming to know what he's doing when he doesn't really.  That's my first lawyer - said he had experience with similar cases but couldn't back it up - so I fired him and hired a competent one.

We have provided our exhibits... .she received them last week which is what prompted her to ask to settle. That and the fact that she now has to provide hers, and she doesn't have any because my DH has granted all of her requests for additional visits and has never withheld visitation. The problem that we ran into while producing our evidence as that she saves most of her rants for the phone, so we journal the phone calls but that isn't as strong as a text or email.

Document, document, document everyone.

Yeah, I think you're right to just not take her calls or return them - no need to talk about this subject by phone or face-to-face - let her know she should respond in writing.  No rants, no arguments, just proposals and counter-proposals.

But... .if she talks, and you listen, and don't really respond - "I see where you're coming from.  I'll think about it." - that will give you a window into her mind.  Might help you prepare.

I agree with you about putting all of the information out there that concerns her -- like the drinking. I don't see the point in waiting to share that one. That isn't a point of negotiation. A point of negotiation would be that you are actually willing to go up to 5 weeks summer vacation instead of 4, but you hold that card until the last minute. The fact that your lawyer is thinking that way makes me think he doesn't get BPD. Like Matt said, ask him how he has handled cases like this before. BPD divorces are different, they require a different strategy, different mindset.

So pile on the heat now while she is twisting. She is faking a pregnancy with someone and doesn't want her last husband to come out of the woodwork. Perfect time to bring up the DUIs.

Also, about the drinking and the kids. I think it's important to get that stuff on the record. Ask that the new plan say something about her not drinking while the kids are with her. She won't follow it, of course, but if the kids ever call and say, "Mom is passed out cold and we can't get her to move" then you have a legal document that puts her in contempt of court.

I had that language in mine, and would've used it except N/BPDx handed over an ever more damaging incident and that led to me getting full custody.

A concern with 'negotiations' is that once you make a concession, the pwBPD generally feels entitled to ask for more.  And more.  Think of the Moving Goalpost illustration or the endless BPD Dance, every time you make a move, there's a counter move.  So rather than a concession being appreciated, it's often seen as weakness, a chink in your armor and an invitation for more pressure, manipulation and demands.

Really important point.  Anything that doesn't go on the record now, you probably can't bring up later.  So later if you say, "She's been doing this for years!", the other side can say, "Well you didn't say anything about it in 2013, so all that matters is what's happened since then."

Yeah, that's absolutely what I found.

A couple ways to handle that - if the other party asks for X, and you think that's reasonable, you say, "I'll agree to X if you agree to Y." - a concession you think is important for her to make, and which is roughly proportionate.  "I'll agree to you having the kids 5 weeks each summer instead of 4, if you agree that they'll spend every spring break with me."

Or... .you can say, "Let me think about it.", and pile up those requests, and then ask, "Is that it or is there anything else you would like?"  And when the list of requests is complete, you respond all at once, saying, "I can't agree to A, B, or C, but I can agree to D, E and F, if you put them in writing today, and we finalize everything today."  Like a car dealer saying, "I can reduce the price by $100 but only if you buy the car today."  Puts an end to the negotiation - it's not more more more.

That's the part of court that was hard to understand when I first started this stuff. Fortunately, N/BPDx is the one who had to learn the hard way (no idea why he didn't understand, since he's a lawyer, but whatevs). N/BPDx would agree to things, those things would become legal court orders, and then he would try, in later hearings, to re-open stuff that happened prior to the original hearings. Basically, the legal process is a long corridor and you pass through a bunch of doors. Every hearing, every court document is a door that closes, and you can't open those doors once you pass through. Only under special circumstances (substantial changes) can you even get the courts to consider opening those doors. And that's when things get very technical and lawyerly, interpreting what "substantial changes" means.

How are the kids doing, btw?

You guys make excellent points. I'm very aware that she sees a concessions as a weakness to exploit.I'm not sure that my DH really gets that, he still doesn't fully understand the depths of her illness because he was so close to it for 20 years. He started dating her in high school, so she is really all he has known as far as relationships go. And honestly, he most recent ex doesn't really see it. It took him a while to tell me all of the components of the fake pregnancy, like the ultra sound and the email about the baby walking. That came out in drips. I was sitting in his living room with my jaw on the floor and it was like it was no big deal to him.

The point about getting everything on the record is a good one. I actually think that may be why the attorney wants us to withhold the DUI evidence and make her present it as part of discovery because a judge may wonder why we didn't take action when we found out about it. Almost everything in out court documents and evidence has occurred since the last modification, so this makes sense.

The kids are doing great! That is actually part of our argument, that they are happy now. We even have our youngest son's teacher willing to testify about how she saw absolutely no affect on his behavior when his mother moved away. It surprised her because she normally sees kids act out if a parent leaves, so she made a point of telling us at a parent teacher conference and she is more than willing to testify. They did spend Thanksgiving with her, and said they had fun. We don't push them for info, so we don't really know. She did not tell them she was pregnant, which makes me more convinced that it is fake. I believe that she is going to have a miscarriage soon due to the stress of the custody battle so that she can blame that on my DH. Love to be the victim!

You mean, she actually told him she had the baby, and the baby was walking?  That's incredible!  Usually these things don't go that long - it's about "I'm pregnant" not "I had the baby".  If that can be documented - if she put it in writing that she actually had a baby, when she didn't - that should be devastating to her credibility.  Imagine her on the stand, under oath, being asked about that - nobody could possibly believe a word she said after that.

Yes, exactly! She emailed that to her exH. Hopefully he still has the email, I didn't ask but she knows that she did that so I believe that is a big reason for her panic. We did put "Fake pregnancy" under the  description of things that he would testify about on our witness list, so she knows that we know. We also put alcoholism, which according to my DH will trigger her rage. She does not like to be told that she has a drinking problem.

With my DH, her fake pregnancy ended in miscarriage like you said.

That's good -- and yes, same thing in my case. My L actually told me that if I continued to stay with N/BPDx, knowing he had a serious alcohol problem, the judge would question me as a parent. That was a wake-up call.

So does this mean that through the discovery process the drinking will get added to the record? Check with your lawyer about how that works. If you settle, somehow your concerns about her drinking needs to be documented in a way you can refer to it later. Meaning, it isn't just used as a point of negotiation, but is used to document things for the long haul.


That's great that the kids are doing well. It always gives me hope to hear that. I've invested a lot of hope in knowing that the kids can do well when there's at least one stable, loving parent. My son was traumatized by N/BPDx during marriage, and has been through some pretty awful nights at his dad's, but now that things are stable and his visitation is limited to 16 hours a month, he seems to enjoy seeing his dad. It's weird... .but better than the alternative, I guess.

One aspect to the settlement could be, "Mother is ordered to enter a treatment program for alcohol abuse, and remain in that program, as a condition of shared custody." or something like that.

Meaning, at a later date, if you go back to court, you will be able to ask for evidence that she is sober, or at least has her drinking under control.  If she can't provide that, her position will be very weak.  So she'll be reluctant to go back to court.

My ex is under court order to get psychotherapy to treat her psych disorders, but she hasn't done it.  Every conflict we've had, she's obviously eager to settle without going to court, probably because she knows that if that happens, I can show she isn't complying with the court order.  So she's been easier to get along with, since that order was imposed.  (Of course she has the choice to get treatment, and in your case Mom has the option to get help for her drinking.  Probably not gonna happen.)

Also, your case in particular is well-suited to a deposition. With that kind of lying... .

You could charge tickets for ringside seats and sell popcorn to raise money for the legal fees.

I was thinking exactly the same thing.  Deposing the other party is a very powerful tactic to expose dishonesty.

Here's how it worked in my case:

My wife had made a bunch of false accusations, including calling 911 and saying I "threw her down the stairs" (which led to a night in jail and criminal charges, later dropped).  No evidence to back any of them up, and I could prove most of them, including the assault, false.

My lawyer said, "Let's depose her.", so we filed a motion.  Her lawyer responded in kind, and the two lawyers agreed she would be deposed for four hours one morning, and me that afternoon.

My lawyer asked me for a list of topics and questions, and she added some more - her script.  My wife was sworn in and questioned by my lawyer.  There was a court reporter so it was all on the record.  She was asked about each of the accusations - where it took place, and when, and exactly what happened - lots of details.  Then in the afternoon I was deposed, but it only took a little while, since I hadn't made any false accusations.

That gave us a few weeks before trial to assemble evidence showing my wife had lied (more than 40 times!) under oath.  My lawyer kept her lawyer aware - sent her copies of stuff so she knew her client was in big trouble if she took the stand at trial.

If we had gone to trial, my wife would have been sworn in, and confronted with solid proof she had made a number of false accusations and false statements under oath - a crime.  My wife's lawyer had an ethical obligation to protect her client from this, so she strongly advised her to settle.  The case shifted from more-or-less neutral to strongly in my favor, and we got a good settlement at the last minute - the day before trial.

The reason this works so well is because you get a detailed statement, under oath, on the record, with time to prove it false before the trial.  And the opposing party, and more importantly her lawyer, will see what kind of a witness she will make.  Stuff like, "Ms. Mom, did you tell Mr. MtGirl that you were pregnant?  And that he was the father?  And that you had the baby?  And that the baby was walking?" - no way she can answer those questions and retain any credibility at all - she would look dishonest and crazy.

Oh, yes! I can't wait for the deposition, and neither can our lawyer. We are going to schedule that this week if she doesn't accept the settlement and that was conveyed in the settlement offer. My DH can also be present at the deposition, not sure about me but I hope so. I have been through depos at work, so I know the drill & they are designed to make the person sweat. Our atty said that he loves depos, so hopefully he is skilled at it. Since we journal all of her craziness, he has a great starting point for questioning.

We will also depose her exH to get the drinking and fake pregnancy on record. She will have to provide her DUI records as part of discovery unless she settles so at least that will be on record.

I would caution on getting too caught up in her lying and drama. Yes, you can have your lawyer ask questions about the fake pregnancy but stuff like that will probably be just a footnote. The drinking is the real issue because it could effect the kids. Courts see Jerry Springer style drama all the time. The fact that she manipulates the men in her life, even if she lies under oath about it, doesn't necessarily make her unfit. The court expects her to lie. But lying over and over again about provable documented facts will eat away at her credibility. You will be most helped by a deposition that makes the court not believe anything that comes out of her mouth.

I don't know how she is, but the BP I am dealing with absolutely will not settle out of court. She will call and scream at my fiance that she doesn't want to go back to court and that he should be trying to work things out with her like an adult but then she will do whatever she wants, take no responsibility, and break every agreement reached in meditation. Then she will continue to scream that they need to work it out without going to court. It won't matter what evidence we hit her with when the time comes. She is too entitled. We choose not to disclose any of our evidence until we absolutely have to because all we would be doing is giving her more of a chance to come up with lies to explain away all the bad behavior. So, essentially, if she feels so entitled that she thinks she can get a better deal from the judge than from you, that is the route you can expect. Otherwise, I agree with everyone who says last minute settlement.

Well, I knew from the deafening silence from my DH yesterday that he had talked to her and didn't want to tell me. He had a late meeting and I had a pilates class so by the time we finally had a chance to talk at 9:30 last night he told me she had called him on his way to work (she called 3 times after he sent the offer, once right after and twice in the middle of the night and he didn't answer any) and he took the call. First she asked why he hadn't answered his phone and he replied that she called in the middle of the night. She said, oh I didn't know it was that late"... .then she asked when he was going to send the settlement offer that she had asked for (!) and pretended like she hadn't received it! He told her that he had sent it and knows she received it, but if that's the way she wanted to play then he would have his L send it to her L. He said he was trying to save both of them attorney fees but never mind that now. She then said no don't do that, just tell me over the phone. he refused, hung up and called his attorney and told him to send it. Her L called our L and said he got it and would get it to her but that he was booked solid this week so can't get to it until next week.

I work with a lot of attorneys, so I called one of my close atty friends when she retained this guy to get his opinion of him. He said that he is competent but that he always pushes back on deadlines. Clearly that is what he is doing here. I think that we should tell him too bad you are busy, there is still this deadline. My DH told me that he no longer wants my input because I don't like it when he disagrees with how I think he should handle it. He said he didn't think he should have to ask me if he should answer the phone. While I agree in theory, I asked him if he thought he bears any responsibility for her behavior that we are still dealing with 5 years later. he said he did & that he is an enabler, but he still wants to do it his way. Again, in theory, fine. But he is still scared to death of her and will not do any research or reading on BPD and establishing boundaries, etc. He thought that putting "all communication shall be in writing unless involving a medical emergency" was too harsh. i explained that we have had a difficult time proving her craziness because it is always over the phone, and she calls him at work on his cell  and yells at him for 30 mins then if he hangs up she calls his office has has the receptionist patch her through. And for the last several months he has chosen not to answer when she calls, so why not put it in writing? I'm beyond frustrated.

Are you in a state that allows one-party consent recording? I solved this problem with my fiance by creating a rule that he would not pick up the phone if she called unless he was in a position to put the phone on speaker and record the whole thing. It only took him violating the rule twice and really regretting it because he missed catching some very useful stuff before he came around to my way of thinking and now always records. It's great for my continued sanity and for our case.

Plus, sometimes he goes back and listens to the conversations again and I think he really is able to better hear the manipulations with that little bit more distance.

This gets to the psychology that a lot of nons (people who marry or date pwBPD) have. If he knows he is enabling, and wants to do it anyway, then I can see why you'd be frustrated.

Unfortunately, that means you have to develop boundaries with him.

Trying to think of how I would handle it if I were in your shoes. I like nope's suggestion that you say, "Fine, if you want to talk on the phone" but then you need to record those conversations.

This has to be difficult for you, watching your H enable the situation, which makes it worse, which affects you. It would be so hard to not be able to grab the reins. That's probably my own codependence speaking 

No need to put it in writing - "I won't talk to you on the phone."  I never did.  Just put it into practice - consistently.

He probably has her number in his phone, so he knows when it's her calling.  (He can maybe give her a special ring tone too... .)  What I learned to do is, just don't pick up, let it go to voice-mail, then decide if it's a good idea to return the call or not.

This is such an important subject for stepmoms who are standing on the sidelines trying to be in a marriage while all the other stuff is taking up so much space.


This is really the only way to handle these situations.

It has a lot to do with what you are willing to allow into your marriage. i.e. My husband enables his ex-wife at times, which he gets to do if he wants, but my bank account is not allowed to be affected.

I had a really good therapist (who was very knowledgable in BPD, DBT, and stepfamily issues) who taught me a different way of talking to my husband who was (and still has a tendecy to be) enmeshed with the mother of his children. It was not so much about getting him to manage her better but about handling that part of his life in a way that didn't affect our relationship in such a profound way.

She was literally in my ear for a 6 months as I learned to set better boundaries.    

DreamGirl, can you share some of the ways you accomplished this because I do think that would be very helpful to me?