gearing up for custody/support battle

[Matt]

You mean, she actually told him she had the baby, and the baby was walking?  That's incredible!  Usually these things don't go that long - it's about "I'm pregnant" not "I had the baby".  If that can be documented - if she put it in writing that she actually had a baby, when she didn't - that should be devastating to her credibility.  Imagine her on the stand, under oath, being asked about that - nobody could possibly believe a word she said after that.

[mt grl]

Yes, exactly! She emailed that to her exH. Hopefully he still has the email, I didn't ask but she knows that she did that so I believe that is a big reason for her panic. We did put "Fake pregnancy" under the  description of things that he would testify about on our witness list, so she knows that we know. We also put alcoholism, which according to my DH will trigger her rage. She does not like to be told that she has a drinking problem.

With my DH, her fake pregnancy ended in miscarriage like you said.

[livednlearned]

The point about getting everything on the record is a good one. I actually think that may be why the attorney wants us to withhold the DUI evidence and make her present it as part of discovery because a judge may wonder why we didn't take action when we found out about it. Almost everything in out court documents and evidence has occurred since the last modification, so this makes sense.

That's good -- and yes, same thing in my case. My L actually told me that if I continued to stay with N/BPDx, knowing he had a serious alcohol problem, the judge would question me as a parent. That was a wake-up call.

So does this mean that through the discovery process the drinking will get added to the record? Check with your lawyer about how that works. If you settle, somehow your concerns about her drinking needs to be documented in a way you can refer to it later. Meaning, it isn't just used as a point of negotiation, but is used to document things for the long haul.

The kids are doing great! That is actually part of our argument, that they are happy now. We even have our youngest son's teacher willing to testify about how she saw absolutely no affect on his behavior when his mother moved away. It surprised her because she normally sees kids act out if a parent leaves, so she made a point of telling us at a parent teacher conference and she is more than willing to testify. They did spend Thanksgiving with her, and said they had fun. We don't push them for info, so we don't really know. She did not tell them she was pregnant, which makes me more convinced that it is fake. I believe that she is going to have a miscarriage soon due to the stress of the custody battle so that she can blame that on my DH. Love to be the victim!

That's great that the kids are doing well. It always gives me hope to hear that. I've invested a lot of hope in knowing that the kids can do well when there's at least one stable, loving parent. My son was traumatized by N/BPDx during marriage, and has been through some pretty awful nights at his dad's, but now that things are stable and his visitation is limited to 16 hours a month, he seems to enjoy seeing his dad. It's weird... .but better than the alternative, I guess.

[Matt]

One aspect to the settlement could be, "Mother is ordered to enter a treatment program for alcohol abuse, and remain in that program, as a condition of shared custody." or something like that.

Meaning, at a later date, if you go back to court, you will be able to ask for evidence that she is sober, or at least has her drinking under control.  If she can't provide that, her position will be very weak.  So she'll be reluctant to go back to court.

My ex is under court order to get psychotherapy to treat her psych disorders, but she hasn't done it.  Every conflict we've had, she's obviously eager to settle without going to court, probably because she knows that if that happens, I can show she isn't complying with the court order.  So she's been easier to get along with, since that order was imposed.  (Of course she has the choice to get treatment, and in your case Mom has the option to get help for her drinking.  Probably not gonna happen.)

[livednlearned]

Also, your case in particular is well-suited to a deposition. With that kind of lying... .

You could charge tickets for ringside seats and sell popcorn to raise money for the legal fees.

[Matt]

Also, your case in particular is well-suited to a deposition. With that kind of lying... .

You could charge tickets for ringside seats and sell popcorn to raise money for the legal fees.

I was thinking exactly the same thing.  Deposing the other party is a very powerful tactic to expose dishonesty.

Here's how it worked in my case:

My wife had made a bunch of false accusations, including calling 911 and saying I "threw her down the stairs" (which led to a night in jail and criminal charges, later dropped).  No evidence to back any of them up, and I could prove most of them, including the assault, false.

My lawyer said, "Let's depose her.", so we filed a motion.  Her lawyer responded in kind, and the two lawyers agreed she would be deposed for four hours one morning, and me that afternoon.

My lawyer asked me for a list of topics and questions, and she added some more - her script.  My wife was sworn in and questioned by my lawyer.  There was a court reporter so it was all on the record.  She was asked about each of the accusations - where it took place, and when, and exactly what happened - lots of details.  Then in the afternoon I was deposed, but it only took a little while, since I hadn't made any false accusations.

That gave us a few weeks before trial to assemble evidence showing my wife had lied (more than 40 times!) under oath.  My lawyer kept her lawyer aware - sent her copies of stuff so she knew her client was in big trouble if she took the stand at trial.

If we had gone to trial, my wife would have been sworn in, and confronted with solid proof she had made a number of false accusations and false statements under oath - a crime.  My wife's lawyer had an ethical obligation to protect her client from this, so she strongly advised her to settle.  The case shifted from more-or-less neutral to strongly in my favor, and we got a good settlement at the last minute - the day before trial.

The reason this works so well is because you get a detailed statement, under oath, on the record, with time to prove it false before the trial.  And the opposing party, and more importantly her lawyer, will see what kind of a witness she will make.  Stuff like, "Ms. Mom, did you tell Mr. MtGirl that you were pregnant?  And that he was the father?  And that you had the baby?  And that the baby was walking?" - no way she can answer those questions and retain any credibility at all - she would look dishonest and crazy.

[mt grl]

Oh, yes! I can't wait for the deposition, and neither can our lawyer. We are going to schedule that this week if she doesn't accept the settlement and that was conveyed in the settlement offer. My DH can also be present at the deposition, not sure about me but I hope so. I have been through depos at work, so I know the drill & they are designed to make the person sweat. Our atty said that he loves depos, so hopefully he is skilled at it. Since we journal all of her craziness, he has a great starting point for questioning.

We will also depose her exH to get the drinking and fake pregnancy on record. She will have to provide her DUI records as part of discovery unless she settles so at least that will be on record.

[Nope]

Oh, yes! I can't wait for the deposition, and neither can our lawyer. We are going to schedule that this week if she doesn't accept the settlement and that was conveyed in the settlement offer. My DH can also be present at the deposition, not sure about me but I hope so. I have been through depos at work, so I know the drill & they are designed to make the person sweat. Our atty said that he loves depos, so hopefully he is skilled at it. Since we journal all of her craziness, he has a great starting point for questioning.

We will also depose her exH to get the drinking and fake pregnancy on record. She will have to provide her DUI records as part of discovery unless she settles so at least that will be on record.

I would caution on getting too caught up in her lying and drama. Yes, you can have your lawyer ask questions about the fake pregnancy but stuff like that will probably be just a footnote. The drinking is the real issue because it could effect the kids. Courts see Jerry Springer style drama all the time. The fact that she manipulates the men in her life, even if she lies under oath about it, doesn't necessarily make her unfit. The court expects her to lie. But lying over and over again about provable documented facts will eat away at her credibility. You will be most helped by a deposition that makes the court not believe anything that comes out of her mouth.

I don't know how she is, but the BP I am dealing with absolutely will not settle out of court. She will call and scream at my fiance that she doesn't want to go back to court and that he should be trying to work things out with her like an adult but then she will do whatever she wants, take no responsibility, and break every agreement reached in meditation. Then she will continue to scream that they need to work it out without going to court. It won't matter what evidence we hit her with when the time comes. She is too entitled. We choose not to disclose any of our evidence until we absolutely have to because all we would be doing is giving her more of a chance to come up with lies to explain away all the bad behavior. So, essentially, if she feels so entitled that she thinks she can get a better deal from the judge than from you, that is the route you can expect. Otherwise, I agree with everyone who says last minute settlement.

[mt grl]

Well, I knew from the deafening silence from my DH yesterday that he had talked to her and didn't want to tell me. He had a late meeting and I had a pilates class so by the time we finally had a chance to talk at 9:30 last night he told me she had called him on his way to work (she called 3 times after he sent the offer, once right after and twice in the middle of the night and he didn't answer any) and he took the call. First she asked why he hadn't answered his phone and he replied that she called in the middle of the night. She said, oh I didn't know it was that late"... .then she asked when he was going to send the settlement offer that she had asked for (!) and pretended like she hadn't received it! He told her that he had sent it and knows she received it, but if that's the way she wanted to play then he would have his L send it to her L. He said he was trying to save both of them attorney fees but never mind that now. She then said no don't do that, just tell me over the phone. he refused, hung up and called his attorney and told him to send it. Her L called our L and said he got it and would get it to her but that he was booked solid this week so can't get to it until next week.

I work with a lot of attorneys, so I called one of my close atty friends when she retained this guy to get his opinion of him. He said that he is competent but that he always pushes back on deadlines. Clearly that is what he is doing here. I think that we should tell him too bad you are busy, there is still this deadline. My DH told me that he no longer wants my input because I don't like it when he disagrees with how I think he should handle it. He said he didn't think he should have to ask me if he should answer the phone. While I agree in theory, I asked him if he thought he bears any responsibility for her behavior that we are still dealing with 5 years later. he said he did & that he is an enabler, but he still wants to do it his way. Again, in theory, fine. But he is still scared to death of her and will not do any research or reading on BPD and establishing boundaries, etc. He thought that putting "all communication shall be in writing unless involving a medical emergency" was too harsh. i explained that we have had a difficult time proving her craziness because it is always over the phone, and she calls him at work on his cell  and yells at him for 30 mins then if he hangs up she calls his office has has the receptionist patch her through. And for the last several months he has chosen not to answer when she calls, so why not put it in writing? I'm beyond frustrated.

[Nope]

Are you in a state that allows one-party consent recording? I solved this problem with my fiance by creating a rule that he would not pick up the phone if she called unless he was in a position to put the phone on speaker and record the whole thing. It only took him violating the rule twice and really regretting it because he missed catching some very useful stuff before he came around to my way of thinking and now always records. It's great for my continued sanity and for our case.

Plus, sometimes he goes back and listens to the conversations again and I think he really is able to better hear the manipulations with that little bit more distance.

[livednlearned]

I asked him if he thought he bears any responsibility for her behavior that we are still dealing with 5 years later. he said he did & that he is an enabler, but he still wants to do it his way. Again, in theory, fine. But he is still scared to death of her and will not do any research or reading on BPD and establishing boundaries, etc. He thought that putting "all communication shall be in writing unless involving a medical emergency" was too harsh. i explained that we have had a difficult time proving her craziness because it is always over the phone, and she calls him at work on his cell  and yells at him for 30 mins then if he hangs up she calls his office has has the receptionist patch her through. And for the last several months he has chosen not to answer when she calls, so why not put it in writing? I'm beyond frustrated.

This gets to the psychology that a lot of nons (people who marry or date pwBPD) have. If he knows he is enabling, and wants to do it anyway, then I can see why you'd be frustrated.

Unfortunately, that means you have to develop boundaries with him.

Trying to think of how I would handle it if I were in your shoes. I like nope's suggestion that you say, "Fine, if you want to talk on the phone" but then you need to record those conversations.

This has to be difficult for you, watching your H enable the situation, which makes it worse, which affects you. It would be so hard to not be able to grab the reins. That's probably my own codependence speaking 

[Matt]

No need to put it in writing - "I won't talk to you on the phone."  I never did.  Just put it into practice - consistently.

He probably has her number in his phone, so he knows when it's her calling.  (He can maybe give her a special ring tone too... .)  What I learned to do is, just don't pick up, let it go to voice-mail, then decide if it's a good idea to return the call or not.

[DreamGirl]

This is such an important subject for stepmoms who are standing on the sidelines trying to be in a marriage while all the other stuff is taking up so much space.

Unfortunately, that means you have to develop boundaries with him.

This is really the only way to handle these situations.

It has a lot to do with what you are willing to allow into your marriage. i.e. My husband enables his ex-wife at times, which he gets to do if he wants, but my bank account is not allowed to be affected.

I had a really good therapist (who was very knowledgable in BPD, DBT, and stepfamily issues) who taught me a different way of talking to my husband who was (and still has a tendecy to be) enmeshed with the mother of his children. It was not so much about getting him to manage her better but about handling that part of his life in a way that didn't affect our relationship in such a profound way.

She was literally in my ear for a 6 months as I learned to set better boundaries.    

[mt grl]

DreamGirl, can you share some of the ways you accomplished this because I do think that would be very helpful to me?