BPDFamily.com

 What is mind boggling to me, I know that BPD is a serious mental disorder, and believe me, my lifes been turned upside down, over and over during this relationship, now hers has too, as a result of this last breakup.

What is incomprehensible to me is that they don't seem to know they have a serious illness, putting the pwBPD aside, they drag their children along through it all... . how is it possible they don't see their life pattern and the fact that they're the common denominator?

I honestly struggle with wanting to believe she can control her actions, and wanting to either take the blame myself or blame it wholly on the illness, which it is my conclusion its an illness causing all this chaos and insanity. I just refuse to believe anyone would behave in a way, that us adults aside, could and does affect her kids in such a negative way.

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that she can't see that she's out of her flippin mind. I have no problem admitting I'm an alcoholic, or at least misuse it and never have a problem taking steps towards solving that problem. How in the world someone can live their whole adult life a certain way, repeat the same behavior in 4 long term relationships which have covered most of that adult life, and somehow not accept the fact that she's the one with a serious serious problem.

Its not like her relationships are common, how many women does she know that recycles relationships every other month? How many other couples does she see where the woman breaks up with her bf or husband twice a month, or moves out every 6 weeks, or kicks the husband out twice a month, I've never seen it from anyone besides my wife in my 39 years on earth, and she's done it in every relationship she ever had, how in the world wouldn't she see that she's out of her friggin mind?

You think for her own kids sake, she would take a serious look in the mirror, if nothing else. I've had people suggest she's simply a " b word ( female dog)" and others suggest it has sonething to do with money... . I just can't buy those excuses because I can't see anyone dragging their kids back and forth, and letting their kids witness the instability, just because they're moody or trying to use a guy. Its gotta be an illness, but why can't the pwBPD see it?

I don't know if they all know, but mine knew something was off.  He told me that he didn't know why he did what he did, that he was ashamed of his behavior, that he had done things he wished had never come to light, and he apologized.  Then he turned right around every time and treated me badly again.  It was almost like part of him was watching the horrible things and was helpless to stop it, but that same part sabotaged the evil part and made sure he was punished in some way for his actions.  Part of him cried to me, and part of him tried to destroy me.  I don't understand it either.  I just know I am glad that I don't have to deal with it any more than I do.

Denial.

That is how my exUBPDgf seems to know that she is ill and at the same time not know.

She would reverse her position on that.

Denial. Admit. Denial/admit. Either. None. Both.

She did all of that within one sentence with me at the end.

My mind cannot process all of that.

I'm the same age as you OP and it's the same with my estranged uBPDw although, not as bad. I got kicked out on a yearly basis, but she would break/up make up with me monthly.

I can't answer that. My uBPDw has no clue that she is truly a destructive force on herself and those around her.

What I can't understand either is why her family doesn't see the craziness of it all and try to do an intervention and seek help for her? She repeats the same patterns over and over.

I'm terrified for my kids and the pain she is going to put them through with all of her boyfriends. She dragged mine with my replacement/affair partner 2 weeks after she moved out. She tells me that her and the kids are in a healthy relationship now. Really? A honeymoon phase and your evaluating your relationship and my kids relationship as healthy?

Blurry

My exBPDgf seemed to know that she had BPD.  I read her the DBT Treatment without naming the disorder and she started to cry.  "That is my whole life!" she sobbed.  I thought I had a breakthrough when she attempted to get an appointment at a DBT clinic.  Alas, it was not to be.  Her rage at me (her rage projected) never ceased and she quickly found an excuse not to go.  She was very close... . but in retrospect I see that it simply isn't possible.  There is no sustainable self.  There is no "there" over there.

Now I'm the devil and I "raged" at her every night (kept a journal knowing she would accuse me of this) and everything is rendered into "ashes". 

Like her fragmented personality.  Somewhere underneath, deep down, she "knows" but she could never confront it.  Too painful.

And besides, it was easier to blame me and become an emotional vampire.  Sucked the life out of me.

I think for at least some (if not most/all), there are occasional brief moments of awareness which are shown/shared/admitted to those who are closer to them at the time, especially to those who might be more understanding/non-judgemental and/or have an idea of "what's up." It also depends on the situation/circumstances/environment at that moment.

And that's only what comes to the surface on the outside; I'm assuming it occurs to them internally a bit more often than that.


Finally, earlier this year I lurked a bit on a blog & a forum or two where mainly pwBPD hang out. Perhaps due to the anonymity/comradery, I've found that they're more apt to admitting/sharing/discussing.

Of course, it seemed that, although they'd like to be better, they eventually tended to have the attitude of "eff it, I'm this way, oh well, if people don't like it then they can stuff it" -- and joke about it, or change topics and rant & rave about their latest issue/drama/problem (how they're right & everybody else in their offline world is wrong, etc.).


Short answer: Overall, I believe they know (perhaps less so for the younger crowd). But sadly I don't believe many really care in trying to get better, perhaps feeling it's too difficult/waste of time/others should be catering to them/etc.

The hardest bit in all this for me has been to not take it personally. But slowly rather than think im worthless for being rejected i look at it as she missed out I was good to her. I guess thats progress... .

I still have a long way to go though and I am struggling with this. My ex girlfriend realised how much trouble she was and would say she was trying to protect me (during her silent treatments ect) And even in one of the last batches of emails i got from her she said she was so sorry she didn't know where to begin... . But the moment I tried to make her take accountability she was triggered and turned back into the monster.

One would even think common sense would prevail at some point and instead of recycling, they'd just continuously find new victims. A recycle means ultimately theyre gonna be held accountable for their past behavior, where in a brand new relationship, they don't have to make up for past behavior. You'd think the best route for them would be to leave us for good, and go find someone new to disrespect. I know I trigger the breakups because I refuse to keep my mouth shut when I feel disrespected or disregarded, but a lot of those feelings stem from minor issues that I think are magnified by her past behavior. Be much easier for her to find someone new I would think. Guess I gotta stop ruminating at some point and chalk this up as karma getting me back for something in my past. Every day is a new day and a chance to start fresh.

It's a catch22.  BPD in itself unmitigated precludes treatment because at the heart of it is a huge fear and insecurity of rejection.  How does a person who's biggest fear is rejection face a stigmatized place of mental illness?  Many times they don't unless there aren't any options left. 

Sad truth.  All the rational thoughts and deductions you've made mean very little to someone who's frantically trying to shore up an unstable ego.  Enter denial and all the other coping mechanisms - here's the the other catch they are very successful methods for this person.  The mind is actually a highly tuned machine - it can develop all kinds of feats to protect itself.  Think back to what you've been able to deny about the relationship and you get just a taste if what a person who battles with this disorder can do to survive.   It works remarkably well for them just not those around them that's what people mean when they explain its a history of unstable relationships.

This is where the lack of empathy comes from - a sole focus on oneself, ones emotional survival, and ones feelings.  It's really not a matter of choice its survival.

"Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal." - Albert Camus

Thanks for that GreenMango and its for that reason despite my hurt I have nothing but compassion for my ex. Sometimes life just isn't fair.

Just to add my two cents on the matter.  I've been reading about two larger streams within people with BPD.  One are those whose life is a complete mess, emotionally and professionally.  The others function very good professionally and badly emotionally.  It seems that the first group is more open to therapy then the second one.  Probably because their life is such a mess in comparison with others that they are more easily to convince that something is wrong.

The second group is something different, my ex partner was that way.  I'm also not happy with the fact that she is destroying the life of her own daughter, I see abandonment issues in her already as well, impulsive anger while doing homework when she gets help etc.

My ex partner had moments when she knew that something was wrong with her.  I can't process that is something I've heard myself in all kind of different ways.  I've seen emerging the honesty in moments that she has a problem with a number of things.

I would like to qoute GreenMango on this matter 'How does a person who's biggest fear is rejection face a stigmatized place of mental illness?  Many times they don't unless there aren't any options left.'

Stigma is one of the big problems.  I've tried to show to my ex partner that BPD is a disorder that she can not be blamed for, that it is not something she did by choice.  Just as a physical problem.

I was on the right way with that.  However, the people in the immediate surrounding of my ex partner played an important role in this as well.

Having lost her sexual identity, she is now surrounded by a number of known persons with BPD.  Pushing and pulling is daily behavior to them, so she tends to think this might be normal due to this.  Even when they do accuse another with having borderline... .   Which is correct by the way.

Also my ex partner can't let go of her husband since 5 years.  She is now, again, financially dependent from him.  Two good friends and therapists and some other people in psychiatric care, have told me he has very serious narcistic features.  I just had been thinking of him as extremely selfish and manipulative.  He was the first to tell my ex partner she had no BPD, he knows better then therapists ans specialists !  Next to that there's little or no empathy from the side of her family.  The only one who's caring on that matter is her mom, but she seems to have BPD features as well, if she has BPD, it is a lot softer then the case of her daughter, but this might explain a few things as well.

So, the most contradicting thing is that the only person around her who actually cared about getting help for the BPD was me, also the person who doesn't want her in his life again, because I've seen that the influence of the others is to big (I live 55 miles away from her) and this is of no use, unless she actually understands fully that she needs help... .  But even then it would be another vicious circle as the other BPD's in her life won't let go because of their own issues of abandonment... .

We also have to understand that if you've had one kind of behavior since early childhood, it is very hard to face that this is not 'normal'.  Very confronting, think about yourself and how difficult it may be to change things in your own behavioral patterns... .

Those two streams - subclinical (a few traits ... . What most members are dealing with) and clinical (the disorder ticking all the boxes - selfharming, suicidal) are of the same basic fears.  The clinical presents itself severly - its hard to deny suicide attempts, drug addicts, cutting and self mutilation. 

The subclinical traits are moderately functioning people - mostly destroying the very things they want - like relationships.  This isn't bottom.  It can get to bottom though - throw in a death of a family member, job loss, divorce and you could see some extreme behavior beyond the run of the mill difficult dynamics.

The stigma is a killer.  The negative advocates don't help either.  Successful treatment is shown to be the most successful when the support system is on the same page and healthy too.  Knowing that this disorder is part genetic and part environment - having an unhealthy environment and learned behaviors presents a barrier.

It's an overhaul of family systems, learned behaviors, and thinking/feeling adjustments in the right kind of therapy.  No small feat.

It isn't fair.  It's hard on all involved.

Hey Blurry, I could have written this original post myself, except that i'm not a drinker.

As for family intervention they have already painted us black and the family does not trust us to help the out.  They believe we are the problem.

GreenMango,

Completely agree on your post ! And no, it isn't fair at all.

Talking about bottom thoughts, I've seen the situation when my ex partner her aunt did commit suicide, to add to the problem it was a suicide in very suspicious circumstances which have never been solved.

It is my personal hope that help will come for all those who suffer so much from BPD.  But it is unfortunately not realistic... .

AussieOzborn,

So right, we have been painted black, towards family etc, and family etc does not trust us anymore, perhaps there could be one exception and that was my ex mother in law, with some BPD features... .

But she was the most open one in the whole family of my ex partner... .   What a contradiction.

Her husband could not talk about feelings, except when we were alone and he had consumed a few beers, her brother was extremaly closed on his feelings, her younger brother was very immature for his age in general, and my ex partner her husband (from whom she is to divorce since almost 5 years) couldn't talk about his feelings either... .

You're asking why a crazy person can't see that they are crazy?  lol

She's lived her whole life this way, it is normal for her! Why would she think it's crazy?

All flippancy aside, what Green Mango said explains it pretty well. If it were easy to just accept that, we would spend a lot less time agonizing over why pwBPD can't see what we see. I think that is a point of acceptance we have to reach for our own healing.

Painting ex bf and h's continously seems like such a cheap parlor trick to fool family and friends. Are they in a fog as well with a BPD? Is the area of effect that large? In mi situation I would of thought a family member or a friend on her side would of come forward and told her "you know a sepearation is a life event and I think it's inappropriate to have a bf sleepover 3 weeks after you left h"

Dat power of the victim card. Seems like an unbeatable hand. If your not a part of the solution, your a part of the problem. I see it as family and friends enabling.

It's possible someone did.  Not many people like to be called on their behavior. Someone with BPD really isn't going to want to hear it.  And ignored it.

It's also possible they didn't want to get involved.

Thanks for the response. Sad but true.

My wife was just asking her ex to let her move back in with him, 3 WEEKS AFTER GETTING BACK FROM OUR HONEYMOON, 12 hours after we woke up with no issue, the same night she left. What message does that say to her 5 kids and her friends and family about her? Nothing probably, probably sends a message I'm some sort of horrible guy. Its like they're all playing dumb. Can you imagine her asking him to take her back 3 weeks after getting married, the same day where a petty argument triggered her and caused her to bounce... . and everyones telling me I should of been non- reactive towards that, like a man. It'll be a cold day in hell before I'm non-reactive towards something like that!

I do know, if I had a daughter that pulled some stunt like that, she'd get an earful, and wouldn't like one word of what I had to say.

You are entitled to your feelings and values.  They are going to differ from hers as they flucuate with situation and mood.

It may be her family knows but when someone has a pervasive pattern of instability like BPD it can be a powerless place for families.  What can they really do?  It's hard to enforce treatment?  And passing judgements or ostracism from loved ones tends to flare up problems.  Or this maybe be acceptable.

I'm sorry to hear that. That's something else to go back to an ex after just getting married. She was telling my kids after moving out that mom and dad are ex-husband and ex-wife, as if to justify her bf. Or mutual friends saying "well if your fighting all of the time you should both call it quits" Yes I fought back because I had enough with being humiliated in front of the kids, family and friends with her denigration. 'well her boyfriend is something new to her" I don't remember where in the wedding vows it says "to have and to hold until something new comes along"

It feels like a lose/lose. Does she just make bad choices with the men that she picks? They're all drug addicts, alcoholics/abusers? It's the kids that hurts me the most. Her family and friends have shown their true colors to me. If you can't find out the other half of the story then there is no need to have people like that in my life. If you would rather believe a horrific, dramatic story, then it shows who you are.

Hi blurry - my exH and I broke up and reconciled many times.  When he wasn't with me he did the same with an exgf who he was going to marry but we weren't divorced yet.  I don't believe he could stay with either me or the exgf because to do so would mean dealing with having left us/hurt us repeatedly.  After our last split, he married a co-worker he'd been seeing less than six months.  No time for a split so nothing to feel accountable for.

BUT I realise that common sense should have prevailed with me and instead of recycling, I should have been the one to say no to reconciliation.

":)o they know?" - my exH did - quite painfully - at times and then repeated the behaviour.

":)id I know" - yes; and I went back every time... . and repeated the behaviour.

What in the world would possess us to keep going back? I almost feel, sick as it sounds, that getting to the point where she married me 7 weeks ago was almost some kind of victory in my mind, like it showed everyone that saw her dump me 5 or 6 times over the year that I... . I don't know exactly. Is it the challenge, or the florence nightingale syndrome, where were trying to save them? Or is is low self esteem on our parts? Or, why in the world do I even need an answer, or care anymore?

Good Questions.  What do you think might have been going on?

From my experience, I believe it was to have her day, and the attention soley focused on her. I met her in early 2005 and by mid 2006 she wanted to get married, we had had our first child together. I kept wanting to wait. In the end, I know that marriage certificates and divorce papers are just pieces of papers and mean nothing else.

Mutt - come on now  :) , I wasn't talking about what was up with her that's easy - a wedding and baby sealing the deal on unconditional love is predictable with someone who has abandonment fears and attention = love.  I was wondering what might have been going on with Blurry (or you) that lead to this relationship?  Honest question (not judging - we all have a reason).

Good question. I'm 7 months seperated. I have been angry, grieving and trying to learn about BPD and putting my 8 year relationship into perspective, or it's true reality of events.

I've been taking personal inventory in the last couple of weeks or so, as to what led me to this relationship and sifting through the rubble, taking the pieces that I own.

I talked to my best man about this actually last weekend... . how I got into this relationship.

8 years ago... . Depression, loneliness, wanting to settle down and have a family, lack of self-esteem, seeking validation from others, care-giver, lack of healthy boundaries, trying to rescue and fix people, not loving myself and seeking it from others... . Those are a few I can name off of the top of my head and are still issues 8 years later.

I'm still in T and I'm wanting to work on myself and my core issues that exploded to the surface when my wife left. That's what I can identify at the moment, I'm sure there's more that I'll discover while I work through therapy.

Is that what you mean GreenMango?

My relationship had red flags all over the place from day one, a therapists wet dream as far as clientele, me and her. Problem is, once you realize what's going on in a relationship like this, I think you're too far gone. Too emotionally invested and somehow have to go down with the ship. The pwBPD is ill, and there must be something seriously wrong with me as well, co-dependant I guess, or some kind of attatchment disorder.

All I do know is, when it boils down to it, I don't recycle partners, I don't idealize/devalue, I don't threaten the relationship, I don't cheat, I don't lie,  and I'm capable of sitting down and talking about solutions to a problem after a minor disagreement.

I was on the rebound going into this, but I had fallen in love with this woman 4 years earlier, but at the time we both had partners and it wasn't till 4 years later I was recently out of a LTR that we reunited. She was fresh out of a relationship also, which is a given with BPD, but she was even still living with the guy (huge red flag, I know) she had him painted black and I fell for it. Then starts the honeymoon phase, never even knew a woman could be so wonderful... .

Gentlemen ... . key in the right lock so to speak.  Hard lessons.  Very revealing right?  What it took to look past better judgment? 

I did it too.

I can relate.

She was at the right place at the right time for me and I had all of the right vulnerabilites. Hard pill to swallow,  but at the same time, it's really made me take a hard look at myself. I can take that away and grow from it. I can't say the same for her. If there is another lesson learned for myself, it's to trust my intuition and I glossed so many things over inside and outward and I don't mean to be hyper-vigilant. Another girl willing to sleep on the first date with a stranger or sob/sympathy stories is getting shut down right away from myself. I put up with way too much garbage for being a nice, truthful and honest guy. There is a silver lining to all of this if you look inside.

That's really half the battle in feeling better from all this. 



Very True.

You know another thing that sticks out to me, I'm judgemental, to the point I'm going to hell, guaranteed, i dont have enough lifetimes to change how judgemental i am, but I kept looking at all the red flags and telling myself not to judge, let her past be her past, and go by how she treats me. So I actually thought I was taking some kind of higher road by not judging. Now I realize I need to take being judgemental to a new level, and act on my instincts.

I can think of 5 clear textbook red flags that I saw or knew of inside the first 6 weeks and chose to ignore, 5 red flags that probably eliminate 60 or 70 pct of any potential partners for this woman. I can't imagine there's too many guys out there as dumb as I apparently am.

5 kids from 3 different guys, red flag, self medicates with pills, weed and alcohol, red flag, still living with ex when she initiated the relationship (had reached out to me about 4 times during that relationship to which I never responded to her before), red flag, best friends one of the dirtiest girls I've ever known, red flag, and a couple more I don't even want to mention. Yet she was so absolutely wonderful to me, I chose to ignore all that, and it wasn't even a thing at the time, till her BPD decided to make a surprise appearance, then it all made sense sort of.

I'm suddenly starting to feel guilty talking about my wife this way, especially now that I'm two weeks sober, but its so hard to not want to vent this stuff. I guess I'm looking for validation which I think is a codependant trait, I really better stay away from relationships for a long time I guess.

Hi blurry - I feel this way too but this is the one place where we can vent and we're not judged.  Even better, we get gentle (and not so gentle) nudges to help us move forward from the venting and focus more on our own stuff. 

What I write here is generally the really angry stuff but, bottom line, I don't believe my exH deliberately set out to make my life hell.  I have seen the pain he is in at times and I don't really believe that his recent instant remarriage means that he's now in a place of peace and wholeness.  However, in the past I've been angry for a while then repressed that because I felt guilty - just caused more problems so I vent here rather than let my kids hear me talking about their dad to the postman or anyone else who crosses my path!

I don't like how angry I feel just now - many months after our last split - but I am trying to stay with it more this time and work through it.  This board is a safe place to do that, and I also need the validation of realising others are in very similar situations and feel angry too!

It's interesting that you say that you're judgemental and yet not with your wife.  How do they have us behaving towards them differently?  I'm still trying to work that one out.

Another really good question.


lol Blurry you cracked me up with this:


There's a happy medium here... . the grey area.  Discerning is good.  We all make choices on what will work with us.  People do it all the time - from clothes to what to eat for breakfast to mates.  Judgment has a pretty bad wrap-maybe its discerning?

wow delgato, a little investigative reporting, eh?  :) yeah this just confirms how i feel about it. obviously while no one would want to have a mental illness to say that my ex wasn't aware of many of her behaviors is preposterous. in fact, i think the more drama she caused, the more pain she inflicted the happier she was. just how her brain worked IMO. at the end of the day, even knowing this doesn't stop me from detaching and ultimately forgiving. however i think it's important to understand that some people continue to do whatever they want, simply because they can, because they haven't hit rock bottom so why care if they keep destroying others in the process? knowing this makes it easier to stay away.

couple of things, when you say "... . a petty argument triggered her and caused her to bounce... . "-- i say No. it's wild how powerful their manipulations can be, it wasn't til over a year that i started finding out the depths of the deceptions. i don't know your situation totally, but i doubt some small issue "triggered" her causing the end of your r/s all of the sudden. more than likely she just felt like being with her ex; so then she made a conscious effort to cook up an argument, any argument so that she could use your inevitable reaction to justify what she was going to do. she knew she just wanted to leave and be with this other guy... . but wouldn't want to make herself look bad in the process. it's a simple scarecrow tactic, make up some crap, act crazy and then make you look like the bad guy. it will take you too long to figure out the ruse anyway; and it's worked for her many times in the past, so why not?

your feelings, the children's feelings? they don't mean as much to her than satisfying her need for "passion". it is what it is.

nothing that i'm saying is contradictory to the well informed comments about pwBPD suffering from abandonment fears, shame, etc.--this is the "why", however i think it's important to understand the "what" as well as the "why". understanding this truth as quick as possible can help us heal faster, IMO.

It the "how" how it presents, how it manifests, how the actions affect others... . the why is clinical and the how is how you respond or react.

Goldy, I definitely agree, it points towards the passive/agressive type thing they do, or at least mine does. I try not to react for a couple weeks at a time but then finally, what would seem like a non-issue to a healthy couple, triggers me to confront her.

I can't imagine she woke up that day pining for her ex, just can't, but she definitely reacted impulsively towards me and I think going for the ex was her instant idea of a solution, unlike normal adults who take a breather then talk things out.

It all points towards the emotional immaturity, like kids in a playground fighting over a ball or something when one screams to his bestfriend, " you're not me best friend any more, he is!" That's what I think anyway. Maybe I'm just trying to protect my ego here.

Blurry it doesn't feel good to invest a lot on a relationship to have the other person not value it or you - then choose someone else.

That ego thing you mentioned isn't uncommon.  It's painful and it brings out feelings of anger and hurt.  Anger being the mask to hurt.  Because this stuff hurts.  There's really no shame in that - people have feelings.

Sometimes looking at the facts of what actually happened - how you were treated, words versus actions etc - help to uncloud these mixed up feelings.

haha, GreenMango, very insightful. i agree that there is also a "how" perspective and this has to do more with our own personal reactions or how this affects us or others, meaning the "how" aspect doesn't have to do with the pwBPD but with us.

for me, understanding more about "what" was going on was very helpful to change "how" i reacted to things. for example, my ex would start fights on purpose to be cruel, so that she could try to make me angry and react. i never thought this was something she was doing on purpose... . but when i finally trusted myself, trusted my gut, i found out "what" she was up to. she was recording our arguments, and when i did all the right things by trying to leave, calming down, refusing to argue or validated her and basically tried to step away--this pissed her off so she would keep provoking me, because she wanted to get me to sound abusive while recording me on her phone. so, me trusting my gut and knowing fully "what" was going on, i was able to call her out on her isht, i was able to not react angrily to her manipulations, i was a better person for it.

this is what i'm saying--calling them out on their manipulations, not saying it to them per se, but understanding "what" they are up to gives us the upper hand, increases our awareness so that we don't fall into the traps they want to set. of course not every argument is manipulative to this degree, but some are.

understanding "what" is going on helps us immensely control "how" we react.  

i know, this was one of the most damaging things for me too. having to hold back from reacting to her emotional abuse. i think holding things in like this, trying to be the "bigger person" is one of the most hurtful parts of the abuse. because there's no way, ever, to approach the issue in a respectful manner. the ruse is that it's not the issue at all, it's the disrespect or dishonesty surrounding it. for me whatever behavior from her was one thing, but the most damaging to me was her unapologetic, disregulated or dishonest responses to me if I brought up issues (even small ones).

I had issues with that too in round 2 of relationship.

I too tried to be the bigger person by not reacting... .

Made no difference.

She launched missile after missile regardless.

It didnt matter what i did or didnt do... .

Or said or didnt say... .

Or how understanding i tried to be... .

There was no stopping it.

remember this if you ever start blaming yourself for things falling apart. i'm sure you overreacted at times; sure you did things you aren't proud of. it's healthy to own up to this and make sure we don't react in these ways again. however, i think we all know the truth is that the only solution was to end the r/s and go complete NC. i hate seeing people beat themselves up thinking "if only i hadn't said this or done that" that things would have been better. no, you just would have been a nicer doormat 

There is a good lesson in all this on how we respond or will respond.


How much good is come out engaging this way with a person with a mental illness?   You know the why and the what.  Will one upping them bring on an awakening?

Is there a way to assess your values and match it to actions in this?

Ps almost everyone here has at one time or another stooped to their level.  Engaging in conflict - but get this my guess and experience was doing this alleviated the other persons feelings of mounting anxiety and irritability effectively letting them transfer their emotions to you.  Dysfunctional soothing at its finest.

These aren't the actions of someone well equipped - these are autoresponses from a person who doesn't have healthy coping skills.

This is perfectly said for my experiences as well.  He knew something was wrong, he knows he self-sabotaged things, he knows about BPD, yet at the same time he can't stop it.  He is helpless to stop it.  Even learning about BPD he hasn't fully accepted it... . I believe that is just too painful for him to do. 

Yep Goldy, you hit on it again. It wasn't the actual behavior itself, the behavior itself would of gone unnoticed, or not worth raising an issue over, I a healthy relationship. But based on our past, it was an issue to me.

What always made things escalate was me questioning the behavior and getting told "oh its nothing", "oh well, get over it", "its none of your business, leave me alone", "if you ask me one more time, I'm calling the police", "grow some #$%%& and be a man"... . that's what got her own a$$ kicked out this last time finally, for once. It was always me getting kicked out before.

I tried explaining to her politely as I could, many times, for instance, her not initiating, or her turning down sex for a couple weeks, yeah in a healthy relationship, pms, headache, physical ailments, all good reasons to decline or avoid sex for some period of time. Now in her case, id explain, being that she had an ex, and a stranger off the internet inside her multiple times in the previous months, well then the lack of sex becomes kind of alarming in my mind. She never seemed to appreciate that thought process I had during those conversations, I wonder why?

Really? 

Abso-friggin-lutely it brought some of the greatest awakenings and aha moments I've had to date. Seeing the manipulation in all it's glory was equal parts sickening and depressing (knowing that she was capable of this) and also healing and beautiful (because I found out that my instincts were true, I wasn't crazy and I wasn't the bad guy). It was incredibly healing, as traumatizing as it was GreenMango.


I have never disagreed that stooping to their level is ever a good idea. I don't feel like I'm being heard so I will try and state it again clearer--the moments where I realized that I was being manipulated on purpose by my ex caused me to behave in a more rational, less emotional, more positive frame of mind, instantly! You are assuming that I figured out what she was up to and blew up? The opposite was true, in the two moments i can remember--I calmed down and the whole argument ended. And, she never tried to pull that stupid isht again because she knew it wouldn't work.

She faked like she was scared of me several times, crying the PTSD her crying "just go away!". and each time i dutifully went away, i was horrified that i could actually scare her like this. so i did the "right" thing. this solved *nothing*, she did it several times more. but, the one time when it just clicked in my head what she was up to, that she was faking PTSD, as i said, i was able to remain calm, i was able to tell her i didn't think she was actually that afraid, and that if she was then she was free to leave. calm, cool, collect and left her an open pathway to the exit--she stayed right where she was and through her anger i could see her real intentions. it was beautiful to know this truth, that i wasn't presenting myself as a violent man. Heck yeah this was a beautiful (yet terribly heartbreaking) awakening.

She made a habit of recording arguments and when I didn't blow up as you say, this would frustrate her so she'd follow me around and throw more insults to try and get me to lose it so she'd have the audio. Once I called her out on it ("why do you have that phone in your hand? you're recording this?", I immediately contained myself. I told her it was dumb, and it hurt like hell later but I dealt with it on my own--but now I knew the game, and this further made me watch what I said. I knew it would only hurt me whether it was being recorded or not.

I've never claimed that we nons should not be accountable for the bad things we did in the r/s. I think it's critical to understand all of the truth, which albeit different for each of us. Me understanding her narcissistic games gave me the insight and protective wisdom to stay calm, become stronger in front of her, and not react. What's wrong with that?

because she's mentally ill. and it doesn't matter if you said the foulest thing to her or the nicest thing to her, the outcome would have been the same. she's still mentally ill either way. you know this because you tried both approaches, and neither absolved the issue, right? but which approach is better for your well being?

we can see how foolish it is to allow them to get us to the point where we actually act like the monster. that's what she wanted, but best to not fuel the fire so she can justify her behaviors. reacting like this only hurts us in the end, which in the moment i feel is exactly the effect they want. i did many breathing and grounding techniques which helped my reactions a lot. by accepting the shocking truths we can raise our awareness of ourselves, our reactions and emotions and behave better in the future.

Always wish I could go back to the beginning and either never confronted her about her behavior and/ or never reacted to it. To not rock the boat, so to speak. But I'm kidding myself if I think that was ever possible. I feel like if I acted like I didn't care, then I might as well really not care, and be done with her. Idk, so many conflicting thoughts about the whole thing, gotta stop the ruminating.

I did that blurry.  Thought pick my battles - brushing the others off - was the path of least resistance.

Those conflicting emotions are difficult.  Hang in there.  It took time to get this deep its going to take time to dig out.

Too honest... .  

Another thing to add to the ongoing conversation, I think many pwBPD are also easily bored and need the drama and conflict to feel something, to feel alive. My BPDex actually told me many times, "I'm bored", to get me to do something with her. She acted like a little kid in an adult body. 

@goldylamont

I know what you mean, and I'm with you in this. For me, it was CRUCIAL to see what was going on to get out of the final delusions and hopeful self-deception I still had. My ex went so far that he cut all sex, all physical contact, everything in his final means to get upper hand. I don't give a damn about upper hand, I don't need it, I don't want it, but neither do I want to have a partner who is willing to go to any lenghts to control me, even if it means he has to hurt himself in process. I understood that he REALLY is rather without if getting something would mean I would get something too.

I had to see how far he is ready to go to control me, to have the feeling of being the one who makes rules and who is in charge, and who gets his needs met. It is sickening, and it is an eye-opener. You have to see it to get free, to understand that all those cosy nice feelings you have are just your own illusions and wishful thinking, your partner has agenda of his/her own and it is not a nice agenda.