Do they know?

[Depression = 72% of members]

 What is mind boggling to me, I know that BPD is a serious mental disorder, and believe me, my lifes been turned upside down, over and over during this relationship, now hers has too, as a result of this last breakup.

What is incomprehensible to me is that they don't seem to know they have a serious illness, putting the pwBPD aside, they drag their children along through it all... . how is it possible they don't see their life pattern and the fact that they're the common denominator?

I honestly struggle with wanting to believe she can control her actions, and wanting to either take the blame myself or blame it wholly on the illness, which it is my conclusion its an illness causing all this chaos and insanity. I just refuse to believe anyone would behave in a way, that us adults aside, could and does affect her kids in such a negative way.

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that she can't see that she's out of her flippin mind. I have no problem admitting I'm an alcoholic, or at least misuse it and never have a problem taking steps towards solving that problem. How in the world someone can live their whole adult life a certain way, repeat the same behavior in 4 long term relationships which have covered most of that adult life, and somehow not accept the fact that she's the one with a serious serious problem.

Its not like her relationships are common, how many women does she know that recycles relationships every other month? How many other couples does she see where the woman breaks up with her bf or husband twice a month, or moves out every 6 weeks, or kicks the husband out twice a month, I've never seen it from anyone besides my wife in my 39 years on earth, and she's done it in every relationship she ever had, how in the world wouldn't she see that she's out of her friggin mind?

You think for her own kids sake, she would take a serious look in the mirror, if nothing else. I've had people suggest she's simply a " b word ( female dog)" and others suggest it has sonething to do with money... . I just can't buy those excuses because I can't see anyone dragging their kids back and forth, and letting their kids witness the instability, just because they're moody or trying to use a guy. Its gotta be an illness, but why can't the pwBPD see it?

[blurry]

 What is mind boggling to me, I know that BPD is a serious mental disorder, and believe me, my lifes been turned upside down, over and over during this relationship, now hers has too, as a result of this last breakup.

What is incomprehensible to me is that they don't seem to know they have a serious illness, putting the pwBPD aside, they drag their children along through it all... . how is it possible they don't see their life pattern and the fact that they're the common denominator?

I honestly struggle with wanting to believe she can control her actions, and wanting to either take the blame myself or blame it wholly on the illness, which it is my conclusion its an illness causing all this chaos and insanity. I just refuse to believe anyone would behave in a way, that us adults aside, could and does affect her kids in such a negative way.

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that she can't see that she's out of her flippin mind. I have no problem admitting I'm an alcoholic, or at least misuse it and never have a problem taking steps towards solving that problem. How in the world someone can live their whole adult life a certain way, repeat the same behavior in 4 long term relationships which have covered most of that adult life, and somehow not accept the fact that she's the one with a serious serious problem.

Its not like her relationships are common, how many women does she know that recycles relationships every other month? How many other couples does she see where the woman breaks up with her bf or husband twice a month, or moves out every 6 weeks, or kicks the husband out twice a month, I've never seen it from anyone besides my wife in my 39 years on earth, and she's done it in every relationship she ever had, how in the world wouldn't she see that she's out of her friggin mind?

You think for her own kids sake, she would take a serious look in the mirror, if nothing else. I've had people suggest she's simply a " b word ( female dog)" and others suggest it has sonething to do with money... . I just can't buy those excuses because I can't see anyone dragging their kids back and forth, and letting their kids witness the instability, just because they're moody or trying to use a guy. Its gotta be an illness, but why can't the pwBPD see it?

[ComoLu]

I don't know if they all know, but mine knew something was off.  He told me that he didn't know why he did what he did, that he was ashamed of his behavior, that he had done things he wished had never come to light, and he apologized.  Then he turned right around every time and treated me badly again.  It was almost like part of him was watching the horrible things and was helpless to stop it, but that same part sabotaged the evil part and made sure he was punished in some way for his actions.  Part of him cried to me, and part of him tried to destroy me.  I don't understand it either.  I just know I am glad that I don't have to deal with it any more than I do.

[Ironmanrises]

Denial.

That is how my exUBPDgf seems to know that she is ill and at the same time not know.

She would reverse her position on that.

Denial. Admit. Denial/admit. Either. None. Both.

She did all of that within one sentence with me at the end.

My mind cannot process all of that.

[Mutt]

I'm the same age as you OP and it's the same with my estranged uBPDw although, not as bad. I got kicked out on a yearly basis, but she would break/up make up with me monthly.

I can't answer that. My uBPDw has no clue that she is truly a destructive force on herself and those around her.

What I can't understand either is why her family doesn't see the craziness of it all and try to do an intervention and seek help for her? She repeats the same patterns over and over.

I'm terrified for my kids and the pain she is going to put them through with all of her boyfriends. She dragged mine with my replacement/affair partner 2 weeks after she moved out. She tells me that her and the kids are in a healthy relationship now. Really? A honeymoon phase and your evaluating your relationship and my kids relationship as healthy?

[MindfulMan]

Blurry

My exBPDgf seemed to know that she had BPD.  I read her the DBT Treatment without naming the disorder and she started to cry.  "That is my whole life!" she sobbed.  I thought I had a breakthrough when she attempted to get an appointment at a DBT clinic.  Alas, it was not to be.  Her rage at me (her rage projected) never ceased and she quickly found an excuse not to go.  She was very close... . but in retrospect I see that it simply isn't possible.  There is no sustainable self.  There is no "there" over there.

Now I'm the devil and I "raged" at her every night (kept a journal knowing she would accuse me of this) and everything is rendered into "ashes". 

Like her fragmented personality.  Somewhere underneath, deep down, she "knows" but she could never confront it.  Too painful.

And besides, it was easier to blame me and become an emotional vampire.  Sucked the life out of me.

[delgato]

I think for at least some (if not most/all), there are occasional brief moments of awareness which are shown/shared/admitted to those who are closer to them at the time, especially to those who might be more understanding/non-judgemental and/or have an idea of "what's up." It also depends on the situation/circumstances/environment at that moment.

And that's only what comes to the surface on the outside; I'm assuming it occurs to them internally a bit more often than that.


Finally, earlier this year I lurked a bit on a blog & a forum or two where mainly pwBPD hang out. Perhaps due to the anonymity/comradery, I've found that they're more apt to admitting/sharing/discussing.

Of course, it seemed that, although they'd like to be better, they eventually tended to have the attitude of "eff it, I'm this way, oh well, if people don't like it then they can stuff it" -- and joke about it, or change topics and rant & rave about their latest issue/drama/problem (how they're right & everybody else in their offline world is wrong, etc.).


Short answer: Overall, I believe they know (perhaps less so for the younger crowd). But sadly I don't believe many really care in trying to get better, perhaps feeling it's too difficult/waste of time/others should be catering to them/etc.

[snappafcw]

The hardest bit in all this for me has been to not take it personally. But slowly rather than think im worthless for being rejected i look at it as she missed out I was good to her. I guess thats progress... .

I still have a long way to go though and I am struggling with this. My ex girlfriend realised how much trouble she was and would say she was trying to protect me (during her silent treatments ect) And even in one of the last batches of emails i got from her she said she was so sorry she didn't know where to begin... . But the moment I tried to make her take accountability she was triggered and turned back into the monster.

[blurry]

One would even think common sense would prevail at some point and instead of recycling, they'd just continuously find new victims. A recycle means ultimately theyre gonna be held accountable for their past behavior, where in a brand new relationship, they don't have to make up for past behavior. You'd think the best route for them would be to leave us for good, and go find someone new to disrespect. I know I trigger the breakups because I refuse to keep my mouth shut when I feel disrespected or disregarded, but a lot of those feelings stem from minor issues that I think are magnified by her past behavior. Be much easier for her to find someone new I would think. Guess I gotta stop ruminating at some point and chalk this up as karma getting me back for something in my past. Every day is a new day and a chance to start fresh.

[GreenMango]

It's a catch22.  BPD in itself unmitigated precludes treatment because at the heart of it is a huge fear and insecurity of rejection.  How does a person who's biggest fear is rejection face a stigmatized place of mental illness?  Many times they don't unless there aren't any options left. 

Sad truth.  All the rational thoughts and deductions you've made mean very little to someone who's frantically trying to shore up an unstable ego.  Enter denial and all the other coping mechanisms - here's the the other catch they are very successful methods for this person.  The mind is actually a highly tuned machine - it can develop all kinds of feats to protect itself.  Think back to what you've been able to deny about the relationship and you get just a taste if what a person who battles with this disorder can do to survive.   It works remarkably well for them just not those around them that's what people mean when they explain its a history of unstable relationships.

This is where the lack of empathy comes from - a sole focus on oneself, ones emotional survival, and ones feelings.  It's really not a matter of choice its survival.

"Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal." - Albert Camus

[snappafcw]

Thanks for that GreenMango and its for that reason despite my hurt I have nothing but compassion for my ex. Sometimes life just isn't fair.

[Reg]

Just to add my two cents on the matter.  I've been reading about two larger streams within people with BPD.  One are those whose life is a complete mess, emotionally and professionally.  The others function very good professionally and badly emotionally.  It seems that the first group is more open to therapy then the second one.  Probably because their life is such a mess in comparison with others that they are more easily to convince that something is wrong.

The second group is something different, my ex partner was that way.  I'm also not happy with the fact that she is destroying the life of her own daughter, I see abandonment issues in her already as well, impulsive anger while doing homework when she gets help etc.

My ex partner had moments when she knew that something was wrong with her.  I can't process that is something I've heard myself in all kind of different ways.  I've seen emerging the honesty in moments that she has a problem with a number of things.

I would like to qoute GreenMango on this matter 'How does a person who's biggest fear is rejection face a stigmatized place of mental illness?  Many times they don't unless there aren't any options left.'

Stigma is one of the big problems.  I've tried to show to my ex partner that BPD is a disorder that she can not be blamed for, that it is not something she did by choice.  Just as a physical problem.

I was on the right way with that.  However, the people in the immediate surrounding of my ex partner played an important role in this as well.

Having lost her sexual identity, she is now surrounded by a number of known persons with BPD.  Pushing and pulling is daily behavior to them, so she tends to think this might be normal due to this.  Even when they do accuse another with having borderline... .   Which is correct by the way.

Also my ex partner can't let go of her husband since 5 years.  She is now, again, financially dependent from him.  Two good friends and therapists and some other people in psychiatric care, have told me he has very serious narcistic features.  I just had been thinking of him as extremely selfish and manipulative.  He was the first to tell my ex partner she had no BPD, he knows better then therapists ans specialists !  Next to that there's little or no empathy from the side of her family.  The only one who's caring on that matter is her mom, but she seems to have BPD features as well, if she has BPD, it is a lot softer then the case of her daughter, but this might explain a few things as well.

So, the most contradicting thing is that the only person around her who actually cared about getting help for the BPD was me, also the person who doesn't want her in his life again, because I've seen that the influence of the others is to big (I live 55 miles away from her) and this is of no use, unless she actually understands fully that she needs help... .  But even then it would be another vicious circle as the other BPD's in her life won't let go because of their own issues of abandonment... .

We also have to understand that if you've had one kind of behavior since early childhood, it is very hard to face that this is not 'normal'.  Very confronting, think about yourself and how difficult it may be to change things in your own behavioral patterns... .

[GreenMango]

Those two streams - subclinical (a few traits ... . What most members are dealing with) and clinical (the disorder ticking all the boxes - selfharming, suicidal) are of the same basic fears.  The clinical presents itself severly - its hard to deny suicide attempts, drug addicts, cutting and self mutilation. 

The subclinical traits are moderately functioning people - mostly destroying the very things they want - like relationships.  This isn't bottom.  It can get to bottom though - throw in a death of a family member, job loss, divorce and you could see some extreme behavior beyond the run of the mill difficult dynamics.

The stigma is a killer.  The negative advocates don't help either.  Successful treatment is shown to be the most successful when the support system is on the same page and healthy too.  Knowing that this disorder is part genetic and part environment - having an unhealthy environment and learned behaviors presents a barrier.

It's an overhaul of family systems, learned behaviors, and thinking/feeling adjustments in the right kind of therapy.  No small feat.

It isn't fair.  It's hard on all involved.

[Aussie0zborn]

Hey Blurry, I could have written this original post myself, except that i'm not a drinker.

As for family intervention they have already painted us black and the family does not trust us to help the out.  They believe we are the problem.

[Reg]

GreenMango,

Completely agree on your post ! And no, it isn't fair at all.

Talking about bottom thoughts, I've seen the situation when my ex partner her aunt did commit suicide, to add to the problem it was a suicide in very suspicious circumstances which have never been solved.

It is my personal hope that help will come for all those who suffer so much from BPD.  But it is unfortunately not realistic... .

AussieOzborn,

So right, we have been painted black, towards family etc, and family etc does not trust us anymore, perhaps there could be one exception and that was my ex mother in law, with some BPD features... .

But she was the most open one in the whole family of my ex partner... .   What a contradiction.

Her husband could not talk about feelings, except when we were alone and he had consumed a few beers, her brother was extremaly closed on his feelings, her younger brother was very immature for his age in general, and my ex partner her husband (from whom she is to divorce since almost 5 years) couldn't talk about his feelings either... .

[Learning_curve74]

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that she can't see that she's out of her flippin mind. How in the world someone can live their whole adult life a certain way, repeat the same behavior in 4 long term relationships which have covered most of that adult life, and somehow not accept the fact that she's the one with a serious serious problem.

You're asking why a crazy person can't see that they are crazy? 

She's lived her whole life this way, it is normal for her! Why would she think it's crazy?

All flippancy aside, what Green Mango said explains it pretty well. If it were easy to just accept that, we would spend a lot less time agonizing over why pwBPD can't see what we see. I think that is a point of acceptance we have to reach for our own healing.

[Mutt]

Painting ex bf and h's continously seems like such a cheap parlor trick to fool family and friends. Are they in a fog as well with a BPD? Is the area of effect that large? In mi situation I would of thought a family member or a friend on her side would of come forward and told her "you know a sepearation is a life event and I think it's inappropriate to have a bf sleepover 3 weeks after you left h"

Dat power of the victim card. Seems like an unbeatable hand. If your not a part of the solution, your a part of the problem. I see it as family and friends enabling.

[GreenMango]

I would of thought a family member or a friend on her side would of come forward and told her "you know a sepearation is a life event and I think it's inappropriate to have a bf sleepover 3 weeks after you left h"

It's possible someone did.  Not many people like to be called on their behavior. Someone with BPD really isn't going to want to hear it.  And ignored it.

It's also possible they didn't want to get involved.

[Mutt]

I would of thought a family member or a friend on her side would of come forward and told her "you know a sepearation is a life event and I think it's inappropriate to have a bf sleepover 3 weeks after you left h"

It's possible someone did.  Not many people like to be called on their behavior. Someone with BPD really isn't going to want to hear it.  And ignored it.

It's also possible they didn't want to get involved.

Thanks for the response. Sad but true.

[blurry]

My wife was just asking her ex to let her move back in with him, 3 WEEKS AFTER GETTING BACK FROM OUR HONEYMOON, 12 hours after we woke up with no issue, the same night she left. What message does that say to her 5 kids and her friends and family about her? Nothing probably, probably sends a message I'm some sort of horrible guy. Its like they're all playing dumb. Can you imagine her asking him to take her back 3 weeks after getting married, the same day where a petty argument triggered her and caused her to bounce... . and everyones telling me I should of been non- reactive towards that, like a man. It'll be a cold day in hell before I'm non-reactive towards something like that!

[blurry]

I do know, if I had a daughter that pulled some stunt like that, she'd get an earful, and wouldn't like one word of what I had to say.

[GreenMango]

You are entitled to your feelings and values.  They are going to differ from hers as they flucuate with situation and mood.

It may be her family knows but when someone has a pervasive pattern of instability like BPD it can be a powerless place for families.  What can they really do?  It's hard to enforce treatment?  And passing judgements or ostracism from loved ones tends to flare up problems.  Or this maybe be acceptable.

[Mutt]

My wife was just asking her ex to let her move back in with him, 3 WEEKS AFTER GETTING BACK FROM OUR HONEYMOON, 12 hours after we woke up with no issue, the same night she left. What message does that say to her 5 kids and her friends and family about her? Nothing probably, probably sends a message I'm some sort of horrible guy. Its like they're all playing dumb. Can you imagine her asking him to take her back 3 weeks after getting married, the same day where a petty argument triggered her and caused her to bounce... . and everyones telling me I should of been non- reactive towards that, like a man. It'll be a cold day in hell before I'm non-reactive towards something like that!

I'm sorry to hear that. That's something else to go back to an ex after just getting married. She was telling my kids after moving out that mom and dad are ex-husband and ex-wife, as if to justify her bf. Or mutual friends saying "well if your fighting all of the time you should both call it quits" Yes I fought back because I had enough with being humiliated in front of the kids, family and friends with her denigration. 'well her boyfriend is something new to her" I don't remember where in the wedding vows it says "to have and to hold until something new comes along"

It feels like a lose/lose. Does she just make bad choices with the men that she picks? They're all drug addicts, alcoholics/abusers? It's the kids that hurts me the most. Her family and friends have shown their true colors to me. If you can't find out the other half of the story then there is no need to have people like that in my life. If you would rather believe a horrific, dramatic story, then it shows who you are.

[clairedair]

One would even think common sense would prevail at some point and instead of recycling, they'd just continuously find new victims. A recycle means ultimately theyre gonna be held accountable for their past behavior, where in a brand new relationship, they don't have to make up for past behavior. You'd think the best route for them would be to leave us for good, and go find someone new to disrespect.

Hi blurry - my exH and I broke up and reconciled many times.  When he wasn't with me he did the same with an exgf who he was going to marry but we weren't divorced yet.  I don't believe he could stay with either me or the exgf because to do so would mean dealing with having left us/hurt us repeatedly.  After our last split, he married a co-worker he'd been seeing less than six months.  No time for a split so nothing to feel accountable for.

BUT I realise that common sense should have prevailed with me and instead of recycling, I should have been the one to say no to reconciliation.

":)o they know?" - my exH did - quite painfully - at times and then repeated the behaviour.

":)id I know" - yes; and I went back every time... . and repeated the behaviour.

[blurry]

What in the world would possess us to keep going back? I almost feel, sick as it sounds, that getting to the point where she married me 7 weeks ago was almost some kind of victory in my mind, like it showed everyone that saw her dump me 5 or 6 times over the year that I... . I don't know exactly. Is it the challenge, or the florence nightingale syndrome, where were trying to save them? Or is is low self esteem on our parts? Or, why in the world do I even need an answer, or care anymore?

[GreenMango]

Good Questions.  What do you think might have been going on?

[Mutt]

From my experience, I believe it was to have her day, and the attention soley focused on her. I met her in early 2005 and by mid 2006 she wanted to get married, we had had our first child together. I kept wanting to wait. In the end, I know that marriage certificates and divorce papers are just pieces of papers and mean nothing else.

[GreenMango]

Mutt - come on now  , I wasn't talking about what was up with her that's easy - a wedding and baby sealing the deal on unconditional love is predictable with someone who has abandonment fears and attention = love.  I was wondering what might have been going on with Blurry (or you) that lead to this relationship?  Honest question (not judging - we all have a reason).

[Mutt]

Mutt - come on now   , I wasn't talking about what was up with her that's easy - a wedding and baby sealing the deal on unconditional love is predictable with someone who has abandonment fears and attention = love.  I was wondering what might have been going on with Blurry (or you) that lead to this relationship?  Honest question (not judging - we all have a reason).

Good question. I'm 7 months seperated. I have been angry, grieving and trying to learn about BPD and putting my 8 year relationship into perspective, or it's true reality of events.

I've been taking personal inventory in the last couple of weeks or so, as to what led me to this relationship and sifting through the rubble, taking the pieces that I own.

I talked to my best man about this actually last weekend... . how I got into this relationship.

8 years ago... . Depression, loneliness, wanting to settle down and have a family, lack of self-esteem, seeking validation from others, care-giver, lack of healthy boundaries, trying to rescue and fix people, not loving myself and seeking it from others... . Those are a few I can name off of the top of my head and are still issues 8 years later.

I'm still in T and I'm wanting to work on myself and my core issues that exploded to the surface when my wife left. That's what I can identify at the moment, I'm sure there's more that I'll discover while I work through therapy.

Is that what you mean GreenMango?

[blurry]

My relationship had red flags all over the place from day one, a therapists wet dream as far as clientele, me and her. Problem is, once you realize what's going on in a relationship like this, I think you're too far gone. Too emotionally invested and somehow have to go down with the ship. The pwBPD is ill, and there must be something seriously wrong with me as well, co-dependant I guess, or some kind of attatchment disorder.

All I do know is, when it boils down to it, I don't recycle partners, I don't idealize/devalue, I don't threaten the relationship, I don't cheat, I don't lie,  and I'm capable of sitting down and talking about solutions to a problem after a minor disagreement.

I was on the rebound going into this, but I had fallen in love with this woman 4 years earlier, but at the time we both had partners and it wasn't till 4 years later I was recently out of a LTR that we reunited. She was fresh out of a relationship also, which is a given with BPD, but she was even still living with the guy (huge red flag, I know) she had him painted black and I fell for it. Then starts the honeymoon phase, never even knew a woman could be so wonderful... .

[GreenMango]

Gentlemen ... . key in the right lock so to speak.  Hard lessons.  Very revealing right?  What it took to look past better judgment? 

I did it too.