BPDFamily.com

Hi friends ... .

As most of you know, I have an emotionally intimate friendship with my uBPDexbf.  Explicitly, I've told him I am not open to resuming a romantic/sexual r/s unless he addresses his intimacy issues in some fashion, as he never has shown the slightest insight into why he pushed me away so violently in the midst of what seemed like a wonderful r/s.  Explicitly, he has said he only wants a friendship with me.

Day to day though, we have periods in which for all intents and purposes except sex, we function as each other's partner.  We are close, we've gotten to know each other much better, we've worked through hard things, we share important questions and struggles.  :)uring our periods of closeness, we also share tiny little aspects of daily living, you know, the texts that say "it's snowing!" or "my professor just said this in class" or "just overheard this while walking home."

Six months ago, he suddenly moved to another city (sold his coop apartment & moved within three weeks of deciding to do it).  There was no particular reason that I am aware of to choose this other city.  It was as if he just wanted a new start somewhere.  (He is 50 BTW, with adult kids who live elsewhere.)

For the whole past year, as chronicled here on Staying, I've struggled with my feelings of love for him, which are amplified when we are close, because it feels like for people who like each other this much, have this much in common, have a strong physical & sexual connection, and have this much goodwill toward one another, the next step is obvious -- we are supposed to be together.  Yet -- he has an extreme history of unstable relationships, ours being just one of the most recent exhibits, and he pushed me away hard (breaking up, not just withdrawing) for no reason that made sense, and there's no reason to think he's resolved those issues.  He is not in therapy.

So we've been in this strange place of both treating this "friendship" as an unspoken primary relationship, but with no rules, or acknowledgement.  And the basic dynamic, no surprise, has been that he gets close to me at a new level or in new ways (e.g., meets my family, shares something really hard or intimate with me) and then pulls away.  I don't object or criticize or shame that behavior.  And then he returns.  Our current rules are that there are no rules (except there is no abusiveness except to the extent you count the silent treatment as abuse -- he has never raged, he just uses silent withdrawal instead).  He can come and go as he pleases.  So can I.  We do ... .and the truth is, his going hurts me, and I suspect my going also hurts him.'

I'd sum up my approach to this for the past year as: allowing the r/s to progress and see where it goes organically.  Use the best practices I can to ensure it, and I, am healthy.  Love him from here, accept what he can give without a lot of pre-judgment or assumptions, and see where that takes us.  Maintain our r/s in a good place, and if he ever has a realization that this thing that we are doing is love, as opposed to the rush of excitement about a possibly-perfect new person, I'd be open to exploring that with him, though not just plunging back in without a plan for how to deal with how he feels when he gets scared/spooked.

***

So, my current dilemma.

About a month ago, after we visited each other a couple of times, he returned to his new city, and started school.  He was exposed to a whole new universe of people, which is great -- I'm not threatened in general by him having close connections with others.  I don't want to be enmeshed and I don't want him to be either.

At the same time, he referred to a new friend a couple of times, and seemed to have a new reference point besides me for important decisions about his work -- stuff that before, he mostly asked me about.  Again, this is not bad, just significant to my growing feeling that he is developing another primary r/s.

He suddenly developed a new texting pattern with me -- for the first time in over a year, he would just drop out of text conversations we were having without acknowledging he was going or needed to say goodbye/goodnight.  These were mostly very late at night when he was at his place -- very unlikely that anyone else was actually with him then, but still, it was a departure from the normal care he takes with me not to make me feel ignored or unimportant.  He suddenly didn't seem to be worrying about that, not a bit.  I posted about that here, and the general consensus was that I should say something about it.  I didn't end up doing so because I had a gut level reaction to sending something that essentially said "I'd really appreciate it if you prioritized me more and were less rude to me." It seemed really counterproductive.  And also, it seemed so obvious he would just respond by saying "hey, we're just friends, you need to step back your expectations," which is both superficially legitimate, and deeply dishonest, because he doesn't use me as a friend, when we're close, he uses me as a pseudo-partner.  Yet I haven't been able to figure out a way to talk about that with him -- it's completely unacknowledged between us.

Since then, the past two weeks has been an extreme push-pull cycle.  A week ago in a text there was a little hint of jealousy, like he thought I was out with someone we both know -- and it was clear from his text that he himself was not "out and about."  I didn't get his text till the next morning due to text delivery delays, which no doubt compounded his impression I might be with someone else.  But the next morning, I answered, explained the text delay, and we were off to the races, with him asking for my help on some work stuff that's really important to him, us having a lot of fun consulting about it all weekend, and then, him confiding in me for the first time that he realized he has an attachment disorder.  After that he shut down that part of the conversation pretty quickly, but we stayed connected that night with texts about other things (I'd offered to talk by phone, which he almost never does, and he declined -- talking about his realization about attachment issues seemed very hard for him & he wanted to stop).

More email & texts the next few days, still intense.  We had a sort of "fight" in which we both thought the other was offended by something we texted -- ended with him checking in to make sure I was OK, which is a hard thing for him -- hard for him to acknowledge he might have hurt me.  We seemed to be OK at that point.

And then he has withdrawn tremendously since.  After seeming to reach a decision with me about his work issue, he proceeded to do something completely different that we had never discussed (visible on his website).  That's fine in itself, I don't need to be part of his decision-making process & it's his work -- it's just so stark a shift, from having me there every step of the way, to having me completely outside his thinking.

And then I have PTSD-inspired instincts that if he is not involving me in his thinking process, he is doubtless reaching out to someone else -- honestly, as I type this, I don't know if that is a rational conclusion or not.  He does replace people, he does love to have an interlocutor.  He did move from talking constantly to me about this stuff to no communication about it (we've been emailing about other things) very abruptly.  But is it possible he is just withdrawn & doing this stuff on his own?  I suppose.  My spidey senses say there is another woman playing the interlocutor role though.

So anyway, extreme push-pull. Extremely close territory, he invites me in, so far as I can tell, nothing goes "wrong."  Then, I am almost entirely out.  And because of my past & our past, I suspect he has someone else in "my place."

I am trying to figure out what to do, myself.  I just did a fascinating, wrenching session of a trauma recovery therapy treatment called Lifespan Integration, in which my bad feelings about all this took me back to a much earlier r/s which I've always idealized, in which I could see for the first time how much it hurt me that that other man accessed my most intimate places, emotionally and physically, and then didn't write to me for months (the situation was complex, I was not faultless, I've always rationalized that he did nothing wrong). But actually it was intensely hurtful & felt like a deep abandonment.  And here I am again, in a situation with my uBPDex, in which I repeat this abandonment cycle almost weekly.  We get close, he seems to want a lot with me, I offer something lovely & important about myself to him, he seems to want it, then he pushes me away and often, with silence.

I can see that the impact of that cycle on me is Not Good.  It's a continuing trauma repetition machine.

He is who he is.

I can either:

Tell him about this and ask him to help me.  (?)

Or, pull away imperceptibly and step this r/s down to where there is no intimacy, and thus, the repeating traumatic repetition machine stops replicating the same injuries.

Or, pull away and explain that to him honestly.

Or, radically accept that this is who he is and that it isn't necessarily that he is abandoning me in fact, this is how he builds a relationship, and be patient (and clear!), and allow for the sine curve, and somehow override my trauma responses that are keyed to earlier abandonments by other men, a pattern this relationship was almost engineered to exacerbate?  Use force of will and mental discipline to not let our current pattern deepen my own sense that no one will ever choose me & prioritize me & make the effort to stay with me?  Because I know he is who he is, and that is not necessarily what his patterns mean?

Ugh.  I feel like with one set of lenses, I can see that this is me being the fallback emotional caretaker for this man, while he explores or is free to explore exciting other relationships.  And I am only minimally protected from the emotional harm of that by the theory that we are "just friends," by the fact that he is not leaving my bed to go date someone else. Because we are, when we are close, for all intents and purposes, partners, so it does feel to me like emotional infidelity.

And through another set of lenses, I can see that he is being him, and maybe he is really trying, and we are actually having a sustained, meaningful relationship with integrity, and who knows where it can go with patience and clarity, and he isn't a monstrous new edition of betrayal in my past relationships, that is my own fear and my own stuff, he is him, and I am me, and it would be good if I could be more, not less, open with him, and remove the barriers I am imposing to our connection by being so damn scared and poised for flight.

As usual when I post a new thread on here, I am feeling mightily disoriented, like I cannot tell the difference between up and down on this.

I realized I can boil down the range of my indecision as follows:

The memories of abandonment & being deprioritized compared to other women in my past relationships, & the obvious connection to my fear that uBPDex is choosing another woman over me -- amplified by the knowledge that he did immediately move on to another woman when he & I split, and was already communicating with her during our high water mark of happiness & closeness -- are really powerful.  But I don't know what it means.

Does it mean I am importing my past hurts into this dynamic with him & am seeing things that are not necessarily there, that are fear-based?  And thus, as Phoebe and others have pointed out to me elsewhere, I may be the one who is imposing barriers to intimacy, with my refusal to initiate communication, my flight instinct ... .?

Or does it mean I have enough reason to know this dynamic, I keep allowing it to repeat and hurt me, and I owe it to myself to see it & respond to it differently this time?

 

Again, if you were to be more open and honest with him, wouldn't that be better? Talk about the unacknowledged stuff. Get yourself unstuck from it. He is who he is, yes, as you are who you are. So be yourself! Speak your heart. You have every right to do so, and it will help you heal and grow. Even if you just remain as friends, it would be beneficial. If it pushes him away, he's not really there to begin with. The general consensus of your last thread, asking very similar questions, was speak up for yourself and bring those hidden bits to light. You didn't take that advice, and the situation did not get better. It might not even if you do, but what else is there to try at this point? Don't be so wrapped up in what his reactions are going to be that you're not taking your own steps. That's a lesson many of us have had to learn, and it's a good one. 

Hi Myself!    Always so good to hear from you.

I'm not sure I agree.  I let it be, and continued to be open with him.  I didn't close down emotionally (pulling back, getting all anxious) -- I pushed myself to still be there.  And interestingly, we had the biggest breakthrough we have ever had about his intimacy patterns.  He was clearly in an uncomfortable place, I asked about it, pushed gently to hear about it, and he unspooled this amazing revelation that he had understood he pushes away people who love him because he is afraid of being hurt.

As I've said, he is 50.  In all prior conversations about his r/s history, including ours, he has acted like he either takes at face value his excuses for leaving, or he just "doesn't get it" why he needed to get away, or he figured he needed to learn to be alone.

This was a big deal for us.  That he told me this.

And the reticence I had about asking for him to be more steady with me -- not to come so close and then step back so abruptly ... .well, in part, it's because it feels like suggesting I cannot accept who and how he is.  And there are strong themes on here that accepting those attributes, as long as they are not abusive, is important to building these relationships.

In our exchanges the past few weeks, I've been quite open about my feelings about what has been going on between us.  I've offered to listen to him on the phone, I've told him I wasn't completely OK about how our "fight" played out, I've pointed out that we used to be able to talk about even very hard things on the phone, back when we had no reason to trust each other.  I've told him I'm having a hard time with various issues and he offered to talk to me, even by phone, if I wanted.  I feel like we are making glacial but real progress in being real about the fact that there is deep emotional content in our r/s.

I'm not at all saying I've ruled out communicating further about how this dynamic (e.g., he asks me for input, then does something completely different without talking with me, brings me close, then withdraws) makes me feel, but if those reactions are coming more from my own past relationships, shouldn't I deal with my own stuff, and not ask him to take care of it for me?  Shouldn't I accept he acts how he acts, draw appropriate conclusions about what the nature of our r/s is and what I can expect, and proceed from there?

And I do take seriously that it's super tough for him to let anyone in.  I feel like my letting that be is actually a fairly important trust issue between us.  Knowing that I will let him go when he needs to, emotionally, and that he can come back ... .isn't that an important piece of building trust?

***

But as I wrote in my second post above, my ambivalence and confusion comes from not knowing whether the above paradigm (we are building something, slowly and carefully and without pressure) is the right one, or whether what is actually happening is that I am his gap-filler "true friend" while he explores exciting new love feelings with another woman.  Without judgment about whether that can ever be a comfortable place for a former lover to inhabit, for me, because of past issues, even that idea is super painful.  And it makes my continued openness to him feel like I am participating in my own re-traumatization, because I so predictably offer meaningful aspects of myself to him, and he takes them, and he gives his own back, and it seems so important ... .and then he pulls back ... .and maybe he's seeing someone else, we certainly have no rules against it ... .and there is this hurt voice in my head that just cannot stop asking "why-not-me-why-not-me-why-not-me."

Which paradigm is the right one?  How can I figure that out?

HI P and C   

It's lovely to 'see' you - as always.   

My gut reaction in this situation would be to stop trying to work this out on an intellectual level for a while. Instead  I think it would be good to  go for another 3 or 4 sessions with this trauma T (who sounds very interesting) and then re-assess how you think and feel. The sessions will surely help in untangling some of the knots in your head. And at best they might actually enable you to look at the situation from a whole new perspective.

I go on about this endlessly I know - but I really think it's important to be doing enough physical exercise  and/or physical therapy too. I've found physical work very helpful in both bringing out old, buried emotions and helping to process intense and challenging feelings.

When my head is screaming at me that it's impossible to sort things out it's usually best if I stop trying to think things through and turn to other means to clear the 'blockage'.

Sending warm hugs. WWT.

There were so many things I wanted to quote in this, I got a little overwhelmed with it as the number of them rose while I went through your posts P&C 

I don't have concrete all knowing answers of course and you need to decide for yourself.  Your insight is tremendous.  Insight does not always fix situations nor get us what we want and need to be happy as you and I both know well friend.

My "spidey" sense is that this man does fall back on you as an emotional "comfort zone", and you are allowing this knowingly, but justifying it to yourself in some ways and getting some comforts back also, but it is also painful for you.   I'm not sure whether he's sharing in that painful side of the relationship, nor am I saying he should, but clearly your dynamics appear to be focusing on his needs as opposed to your own best interests at times.   (sorry I hope that wasn't too harsh) And I'm sure the same could be said of me many times, so that's not meant as criticism. 

I so agree with Whatwasthat in encouraging you to exercise and "get out of your head" and away from analyzing it for a bit if you can.

I ruminate and do analysis paralysis.  I may have it down to a science now. 

I would ask you this (as I ask myself frequently in my own situation) being he is 50, and assuming you're within a reasonable range of his age; how are you going to feel about risking years of waiting him out to no avail?

How many years and how much time are you willing to give this "glacial" situation? 

Just a few of my thoughts after reading yours and thinking of my own stuff as well.  None of us are perfect.  We all need to be allowed and able to make mistakes in life and in our relationships.  Tip toe-ing to avoid tiny misteps over fear we're going to crack an eggshell is no way to live my friend.   Friendships are two sided in a comfortable non analytical way; and not comfortable in a "if I take a slight mis-step you might leave kind of way".    

I hope none of this is hurtful as it wasn't intended to be and if I put my foot in my mouth and said too much, or assumed too much,  I hope you will forgive me for it.

So much for giving up my lecturing... .lol

Seashells  

No eggshells here, my friend!  You were nowhere near too harsh or too lecturing, nor did you say too much.

I think I am not being completely clear about the fork in the road it feels like I need to confront.  For a bunch of reasons I would love it if this guy could forge into deeper water with me and try to have a real r/s again.  If I want to make that possible, I need to be open, not closed & withdrawing.  And honest. And vulnerable.

But there is another narrative that says he is just one more man who is going to take what I offer and then discard me.  The part of me that fears this is not crazy.  That's what he's done with all women in his life to date, to the best of my knowledge, which comes mostly from those women themselves first or second hand, not from him.

So far I've stayed in this limbo where I'm too interesting and challenging to discard because I haven't declared myself to him, you know?  I haven't said I want something that he can say no to.  So the safety that I feel comes from not making any avowals of wanting anything more than "friendship," which could mean almost anything.

But when we are close, and it is beyond doubt how much more there is between us than just being "friends," it feels like I am chickening out of asking for what I really want, out of fear of renewed rejection.  And as I've been realizing in this new therapy approach, that goes way back with me, to my early adulthood.  So it is possible that we are stuck where we are because of my own lack of courage.

But then again, we are also stuck where we are because he, as yet, from everything I can tell, has no insight into how to deal with his hard, scary feelings in a r/s, and I don't want to plunge back in -- I certainly don't want to urge or pressure him to plunge back in -- when he has no insight, and just condemn us to another loop around the same circuit that made us both feel so bad the first time.  I do have more insights than I did then, but that doesn't mean that he won't run, hard, when things get scary.  My insights don't control how he reacts, and recent months have shown that he still pushes me away hard when things get very close.  I can wait that out, but can he?  He doesn't just withdraw in his romantic relationships, he ends things.

I hate to reduce it to this & to ask for advice on such a question, but: I think my question is "what should I want?"  Is trying to explore where this r/s can go just stupid and pointless?  It seems like part of the problem is that I am simultaneously trying to be safe & trying to explore what is possible between us.  Is there some way to do both, and not be incoherently veering from being open (when brave) to withdrawing (when scared of his reactions), myself, where I end up looking like I am the one with BPD?

What do you want?  Try to answer that without attaching anything to him     

Among many other things in life, I want to be with him.  Not sure if that qualifies as "not attaching anything to him."  The other pieces of my life that I want are there (family, meaningful work, other sources of enjoyment).  I don't need help figuring those out -- though less drama on this front would allow me to devote more energy to those areas.

But I don't want to be with him at all costs, if that makes sense.  Not if it harms him.  Not if he cannot be with me without harming me.  I want to be with him in a healthy dynamic that is good for us both.  As I've told him since things first fell apart, "I'll go anywhere with you that is healthy and good."

Does he like the new city he moved to? Why did he move? How long has he been there and does he have plans to eventually return to your city? Have you and he ever talked about you moving to his city? And, is he an easy car drive away or a plane ride?

What would happen if you cooled it on the texts and contact?

It seems you are treating this guy with kid gloves to create the best environment possible for you and he to return to a committed relationship. Your posts read like you are doing a lot in your power to help him but at a large expense to you since you -- are you tending to your own day-to-day needs? Are you open to meeting another man in your town?

If I had it to do over again with my exuBPDbf, knowing what I know now after reading other people's stories and reading the self-help literature and examining his behavior from a distance, if I wanted him to be with me I would do nothing. Absolutely nothing. I would get on with my life and if he wanted me badly enough, he could do the chasing. I would put much less effort into maintaining the r/s if I could do it over. I let him take too much from me and I feel used.

P&C, I see two different issues in your r/s and I'd like to separate them out a bit.

1. You are trying to accept him as a disordered person with the push/pull thing, and some (albeit very limited) emotional growth on these issues.

2. You suspect he's getting involved with another woman during your "friendship" or at least in some of the latest "push" phase gaps.

Regarding issue #1, Phoebe's question seems like a good place to start.

Regarding issue #2, I've got a thought for you:

This is completely within the "rules" you and he are operating under--he is allowed to pursue other romantic/intimate relationships. And maintain a highly intimate (but non-sexual) relationship with you at the same time.

Assume that it is true. Or that if it hasn't actually happened yet, it will, and soon. Or it will progress further.

How do you feel about this? Does it work for you or not?

  GK

P.S. Sorry to be throwing tough hard-ass questions at you. If you don't think they are apply, you need not answer.

It's hard to tell if he likes the new place.  He is ambivalent about the school he started after arriving.  He's been there for 6 months ... .no long term plans.  He says he is an itinerant soul who isn't likely to stay anywhere permanently.  (That of course is not how he described himself when he was telling me I was the love of his life & the best thing that had ever happened to him.)

We're a long ways apart -- 1,500 miles or so.  Not an easy trip.  We've visited, at a city in between and in my city.  He is not talking about moving back here, no, but I think he could.  He makes impulsive decisions about all things.  A few years back, he set out traveling for two years & then returned here.


If I completely stopped ... .I dunno.  I was about to say that would be antithetical to our friendship pact, in which we both keep that going, but then I realized -- several times over the past year, he has gotten dysregulated after periods of intense closeness and stopped communicating, and it's been up to me to re-start things.  What would happen if I just stopped?  I don't know.  In general, I don't initiate contact, though he has called me on that & asked that I pull more of my weight in, e.g., asking to see each other.  But after a few days of my not initiating, he will usually reach out.  I don't feel like it would be OK not to respond to that.  I could respond with more or less content, more or less depth, more or less care, of course.


Yes, I'm open to meeting someone else here.  I'm not thinking the odds are great, but I am open.  I've dated other people since we split.  No one who is as interesting to me as him, for a variety of reasons.  Yes, I am tending to my day to day needs.  I just cannot get comfortable with a range of questions about this r/s ... .some of which I now see as a trauma reaction of "what could I go back & do now to prevent the hurt from happening?" which I need to pull out & deal with separately; and some of which are about how to handle things with him going forward.

I do see that my fears really impede my ability to be open with this man.  On the other hand, my fears have a foundation.  That, in two sentences, probably encapsulates all the writing I've done trying to explain my uncertainty about what to do.


Interesting.  I do think I could stand to do less.  To some extent, my efforts have buffered him from the consequences of his own decisions.  He ended our r/s -- but after my 10 months of NC, I came back as a friend, so he didn't lose me.  I like him, so he doesn't suffer any negative implications of how he dealt with our r/s.  He moved, but I stay in touch, & we get together -- he hasn't lost nearly as much as he might have because of that decision.

What I'd like is for him to take seriously the importance of what we have, and prioritize it more than he does.  I can't make him.  But I guess I can stop making up the difference if he doesn't do that.  If that's my approach, I guess I have to decide if I am going to explain that to him, or just do it.

Thanks, GK ... .no, your question totally applies.

Honestly, it feels bad.  It doesn't really work for me.  (To be very emotionally intimate with and available to him while he is all excited about & eager to pursue someone else like he once pursued me, when he has never explained why he was unwilling to try to make good on the connection he asked me for when we were dating.)

So -- where does that leave me?

Especially when the fact is my assumptions about what he is doing might be totally off ... .I agree he will eventually do this, but he spent the last year alone, and if I come at this from the perspective that he is already engaged with someone else, I may just be importing my own fears and anxieties from the past into the current dynamic.

P&C

I can hear the pain this is causing you.  I know I made my emotional state worse when in this by trying to work the problem from the outside (him) in (you) rather than inside out.

Couple of things (sorry this is short and not meant to be dismissive).

-check out repetition compulsion.  It may give some insight on why you are finding yourself at the same spot cyclically (I had found myself there a few times)

-it doesn't sound like you are feeling your feelings much.  Like you are denying them because of the past hurts and being hurt again.  Vulnerability is hard especially if you you are dealing with trauma.  It sounds like you don't feel secure in saying this isn't okay with me and I need different or more or whatever - regardless if what he will do.

Just some thoughts.  They could be totally irrelevant.

Also, Patient, the reason I asked about the distance and where your ex is is because I had a long-distance r/s with my BPD guy, but I was close enough for weekend road trips to see him.

My biggest anxiety, and his, lay in me not being local. He piled on tremendous guilt that I could not be with him during the week. Weekends weren't enough. Most of our arguments stemmed from me living away even though I assured him I would return to him permanently when I had money behind me and put in some time at a new job, which took me away from our city. My physical distance was a big factor in our demise. His BPD and abandonment problems were magnified with the LDR. He resented me for taking the job and moving even though my survival depended on it (I was unemployed for a year and had no money, savings or health insurance). 

When he wasn't guilt tripping me, during the r/s ex would say all kinds of hopeful things about us getting married, maybe he would move to my city, or I would move back to his city. And he would tell me how much he missed me during the week and couldn't wait to see me, and he was committed to seeing things through, blah blah blah. But it was always up to me to keep the r/s going. I always had to drive to him. Seriously, I put in 90% and he put in 10%. I only got weekends with him, but then he started making plans with his buddies during my visits. So he chose to spend even less time with me. That was when things started to go downhill fast.

My point is LDRs are tough on the healthiest of r/s's. Consider that the person you are working with is already of the mindset that he is a free man and will do whatever he wants when he wants. And he has an attachment/abandonment disorder and you are 1,500 miles away. Mine couldn't handle it and pushed me away.

This finally made me laugh.  What am I thinking?

The irony is of course that in a weird way, it is exactly the geographic distance and the distance he has imposed with the "friends" label that has allowed him to maintain our relationship and to let it go to some places he does not go with girlfriends.  We've met each other's family, we've seen each other through some complex transitions, we've heard each other's stories evolve over time.  He doesn't do that.  With the women he sleeps with.  Ever.

Now he's started to bring me inside his questions about how he destroys relationships.

And that truth is what caused me to sort of suspend disbelief after he moved and go along with his sense that this was no big deal for us, he couldn't see what the downside would be, nothing would be lost. I think in a sense, this arrangement is the way he can be closest to me.

And that's why, Staying board friends, I don't know about asking for what I want.  Asking him to be closer.  I feel like we are still very much in process and making progress, because I am letting him be where he needs to be, and find his way back as he can.  Which is why we have the boundary that we do -- we are not being partners because it would be too messy and hard to navigate all the coming & going.  I do think we are heading in some kind of worthwhile, good direction. It's just that -- because when we are close, we are that close -- it feels like my heart might break on the way there.

You are probably onto something here. Reading that reminded that at one point my BPDex suggested that I stop staying with him on weekends, that I instead stay with a girlfriend and call him when I'm in town and we can date casually. I rejected this outright. Looking back on it, it was one of my boundaries and I'm glad I stuck to it. I would be damned if I was going to drive to his city only to stay with someone else and see if he wanted to spend a few hours with me.

His request bothered me because when he asked it we were already hot and heavy, to the tune of he had already started with some big promises for the future, talked about marriage and kids, and he insisted that his house was "our" house. We were a serious couple. So I couldn't suddenly change that mindset and start staying with friends and calling him to hang out whenever I was in town. I thought that was ludicrous. If he had requested early on in the r/s that we have that arrangement, that would have been a different story. 

Wow.  This is another one of those moments where it becomes clear we are all sort of living out the same script.

After my ex left me out of the blue and then spent two months secretly regretting it, though saying nothing to me about that ... .and I asked for NC, and he finally said enough about how hard this had been for him that I demanded to talk, because it seemed we were totally missing each other ... .he ended up asking if we could have a "baby steps" relationship, where we just got to know each other.  It sounded like this would entail no formal definition of a r/s, not saying we loved each other, not necessarily having sex.  I told him I couldn't do that -- to me, if we were going to back out of our hot & heavy (sex/talk of marriage/this is the most important thing ever to happen to human beings sorta thing) r/s, we needed to be completely out -- not sort of in, sort of out, which I felt would be gutting on a daily basis, as I constantly waited to see what my fate would be that day.

I've regretted that decision so many times since.  I think it was the only way he could try to keep our closeness ... .he couldn't adhere to the formal expectations but he didn't want to cut off our connection either, and he was looking for a way forward.  I didn't realize at the time that this was, as someone on this board once said so aptly, such a "limited time offer."  I turned that down & that was pretty much it -- there were no further negotiations to be had, from his perspective.  It was on to the next woman.

And that's not fair to us.

I also wondered if I had gone through with my ex'es baby steps request after all the idealization and talk of being a couple (if I had a dollar for every time he said I was "the one"... .) whether that would have let him digest the r/s at his pace and maybe it would have been a good solution for us to build a better r/s. But I couldn't fathom dating him casually, which would have given him an out to explore other dating opportunities, and hope he would stick with me. Especially because I wasn't local. I was making a big investment by spending the gas money and time, and above all, emotion, to be with him on weekends and I wanted to protect my investment.

I also would have been okay if he broke it off with me when he started having doubts or whatever makes pwBPD pull away. But he didn't. Like you, I was of the attitude that I needed to be in or out, not in between.

When he started with the big promises and forever talk, which I never forced, I took him seriously and expected him to be held accountable. That's probably what made him back off.

I know pwBPD are irrational and impulsive and we try to forgive them for their decisions or rationalize why they do what they do. But always follow their actions. This guy chose to remove himself from your area.

Yes.  My gut reaction was that the "somewhere in between," baby steps, arrangement, would have left me a quivering mass of jello. As a member here wrote once, it would be the transition from "the adored to the adoring," where I knew I wanted him, and I would wake up every day to find out if he wanted me, and how much.  It would have wrecked the equality we'd experienced at the outset.

... .You're right about paying attention to his concrete choices.  His sudden decision to leave here was wrenching for me.  Because, as I wrote him at the time, there was something lost in the process -- people who know and love him here, including me.  He was furious that I said that, so much so that he didn't write back for 10 weeks, maybe never would have had I not reached out again.  I was not supposed to question or make him feel bad about his strategies for making himself feel better.  Before he left, we'd been getting progressively closer, in a really cool and interesting process, but it was as if all that was nothing stacked up against the whole wide world.  Nice.

I've got to finally admit, I cannot compete against the whole wide world.  There will always be something possibly more compelling out there, even more compelling than our wonderful, rich, forged-through-difficulty, mulit-layered, loving relationship. So, I guess, he gets to sabotage that with all the many nuanced forms of leaving he has found, and I cannot protect us from that.

This just makes me incredibly sad.  It is hard to believe there is no alternative than to just back up & let go.  But it doesn't seem that there is.

Sabotage is pwBPD modus operandi.

About letting go, yes, it's real difficult. I held on tight and tried to control the situation with my ex and it left me hurt and exhausted. And in the end it still left me without him. He detached and broke up with me despite my efforts.

And, I have second-guessed my move for the job every day. My big "if only" that haunts me is If Only I Stayed We'd Be Together. Me leaving was an enormous challenge.

You, or I, cannot compete against bigger forces that we have zero control over. We'll just get burned out and more hurt. I have decided that if this guy and I are meant to be together, we'll be together, but it will be because fate allowed it. That's how we met. I wasn't supposed to meet someone when I met him. My mind was elsewhere and I avoided dating to focus on my job search. Then he shows up out of nowhere and we hit it off and we're both immediately smitten. Both of us were like: Where have you been all my life? Then I get the job offer out of town  :'(

Let things be. You can only do so much with a pwBPD, or anybody, you want in your life. 

I could be wrong, but it sounds like you keep playing out the same relationship scenario with him.  You want to be all in or all out, even though what is actually happening is anything but, because you're longing for more.  'Longing for more' defines this relationship, without actually doing anything differently than what was done before.  It's safe.  It's fantasy based.

"Baby steps" do help us get to know people.  One of the defining factors of a BPD relationship is the instant connection and love-bombing.  We start at the end-- We love each other!  Heck, we don't even know these people we're claiming to want to spend the rest of our lives with lol  If only they'd do this or that or this other thing... .  Why  Why   Why don't they?  Never mind us.

This guy got under your skin, P&C.  What you have is precisely what you feared-- feeling gutted on a daily basis as you constantly wait to see what your fate will be on any given day.  This is your relationship. 

Our thoughts and fears manifest themselves in strange ways... . 

"Change your perceptions and you change your life!  Nothing changes without changes" (Thanks UfN for getting that point across)

What do you want?  Is it realistic?  How can you find out?

Phoebe, I totally agree, and that is really insightful -- that I am exactly where I didn't want to be -- figuring out my fate vis a vis this relationship every day.

I have nothing against baby steps as a way to begin a r/s, it's just that when this was proposed, it involved stepping back into uncertainty but in some sort of r/s, when I'd just been dropped on my head out of nowhere after being told I was safe and completely loved.  I didn't know anything about BPD and I didn't understand that this might be the only way to proceed in a healthy way to rebuild the r/s.  I thought I needed to hold out for a commitment.  I also thought that we could get to know each other as friends over time while he explored these issues in therapy, & then we could come back together if that made sense.  I didn't realize he wouldn't be able to be alone for even a few weeks, and would immediately go try to resume things with his exgf.

If I had it to do over again I might say yes to that baby steps offer, except that then, I didn't have the framework to understand what was going on the tools to deal with it, so maybe it would have been the disaster I anticipated, in which I felt constantly rejected & just fell apart.  But I think saying no made him feel rejected in a way we still haven't recovered from.  I think it led him to tell me, when we reconnected last year, that he didn't want to be more than friends -- it was too painful then last time around.

So what I want?  I want, I think, what happened for you.  I want him to just organically turn to me in the course of our being together "as friends" and make some gesture indicating he wants to come back across this line in the sand.

It feels incredibly hard for me to venture that and not just wait passively for him to make some gesture.  He's said explicitly several times that he only wants to be friends.  He's moved.  He may be involved with someone else.  He's framed any comments I've made about a deeper bond between us in the past year as me not respecting his decision.  Even though with many of his own actions, he deepens that bond and acts as though we are each others' person. People.

Phoebe, you've said things that make sense to me about openness, removing barriers to intimacy, being yourself.  I feel I have been except I haven't shared with him my hopes that we might come back together.  You've also said lots about not chasing, waiting for him to show what he wanted, needing to know that he wanted you.  I've taken that approach.  We have taken important steps using that approach.  But ... .he said this thing when we were fighting this spring about his decision to leave our city, when I commented that I'd never build something only to dismantle it.  He said "we are on different planets."  Which I've taken to mean that he thinks I did build something (with him) only to dismantle it.  Somehow I'm the one that failed us or prevented us from being together.  And it seems like he feels it's too late.

So under all those circumstances, is what I want realistic?

What if your relationship was to begin today?  Or starting with the next communication between the two of you?

How would your behavior change, if say... .You met online seeking friendship/possibly more (in your profiles)?  You're just starting to get to know each other... .

As a challenge to yourself, can you let the past go and pretend you just met him?

I got the same message. One way my ex justified (lessened the pain for himself?) letting go was "we're just too opposite." It hurts to hear that from them because weeks or months prior you were perfect. 

But since this mental problem makes people work backwards, where it's infatuation up front then a chilling effect later, maybe my ex did get to know me and he felt we weren't compatible. But really, I don't believe that because he was attracted to my differences. I think they try to grasp at anything to convince themselves they are better off without us when the decided they are done. Also, he and I were actually more alike than different.

I'm afraid it leaves you feeling crappy, and I'm seeing it right now. 

I'm wondering if it is time for you to re-negotiate the terms of being "friends" with him: Given your history and current (or at least recent) intimacy, perhaps this friendship should include him at least telling you if he is seriously dating (or sleeping with) another woman, and should include you telling him the same if you start seriously dating another guy.

Given what you have said, I wouldn't be surprised if this resulted in him disappearing for a few days/weeks/months, rather than agreeing.



It doesn't match your history with him very well. Based on that I'd guess that if he does step farther across the line in the sand to be close to you, he'll get scared and run away again after he does it.

I gotta say... .the story I hear from Phoebe is one of the changes she made for herself... .and that her pwBPD decided to rise to the occasion when she made her changes.

Can you find a way to be happy and satisfied with your life while expecting nothing from him? What changes would you have to make for this to be possible?

It seems to me like I should just adjust my behavior with him based on how it makes me feel that he withdraws like this after being so intimate.  Regardless of the reason for the withdrawal.  Does that make sense? I know he could date someone else.  I know he withdraws.  Those two things together should provide me all the information I need about keeping myself emotionally safe.  I think it means not going all the way to the edge of the cliff with him each time he wants to take me there ... .not allowing the intimacy we have been indulging in, without some other terms.  If he wants the intimacy, we can discuss why I can't go there on the current terms.

It seems weird to me to say "I'll be this kind of friend unless you are dating someone, in which case, it all changes."



Probably right.  He does step across the line in various ways.  Then he does get scared and run away again.  I think he is possibly more extreme in his aversion to sustained closeness than even some other pwBPD on this board.  He has zero, exactly zero, experience remaining friendly and close with a woman he is romantically/sexually involved with for more than a couple of weeks.  Our r/s is new territory and when I am honest with myself about what I've observed, it terrifies him to engage with me in person and to come close to physical contact.  So what I want may not be realistic.  Torturing myself as though it is some sort of verdict on me that he does not do this -- which is what I've been doing -- is really pointless.


Actually, my life is satisfying apart from him, and I've pretty much dealt with him in this way for the past year.  I think it's why our r/s is relatively stable and successful on its own terms.  The problem is the longing.  Being this close to someone for such a protracted period without reaching across that line is just a very difficult assignment.  It feels unnatural and like something is going wrong.

Patient: I think I really don't understand what you've related about your fellow's past. Wasn't he once married and doesn't he have adult children? Is he really an enfant-sauvage Into the Wilderness kind of guy, or is he something else?

KC -- I always love your posts :)  Yes, enfant-sauvage is him (loves Into the Wilderness, you are remembering correctly).  He married a woman 8 years older than he when he was in his early 20s when she got pregnant when they didn't think she could.  Stayed in the marriage out of, I think, a rigid sense of duty that flows from his very religious upbringing, till kids were in their early teens.  Was super unhappy and I am certain made his wife super unhappy.

Ever since he left, 15 years ago now, he's had a series of intense, very brief affairs with women whom he leaves suddenly for odd reasons, and doesn't stay close to.  For the first 10 years, that was interspersed with a r/s he kept leaving & coming back to, with a woman whose name he now (sort of joking, sort of not) refuses to speak.  He'd break up with her, have a brief affair, come back to her.  They split for good 5 years ago.

I believe I am the first woman he's been involved with with whom he has gone on to have a close friendship (or any kind of friendship).  Also, last year was the first time he's been alone (without a partner, not dating) since his marriage.

Oh my, that seems a very unusual life story. No wonder you are puzzled.

And, in view of this history, he must be capable of real consistency in some areas of his life, right? If not, I can't quite picture how, by the age of 50, he would have been able to satisfy his obligations to his children and been able also to put aside enough money to begin to practice a freer lifestyle.

It sounds as though he assumed the responsibilities of adulthood pretty early, at least for our society. And maybe he is living his deferred adolescence now?

He works hard, is incredibly self-disciplined, and is super, super frugal.  Trauma deprivation-style super frugal.  He has savings & he is living off of them while working to become a serious artist.  I really respect all of that.

He switches passionate life interests every two years or so.  It remains to be seen if the current dedication to art will survive the usual disillusionment window.  I hope so.

He is quite devoted to his kids, who are also wanderers.

Yes, exactly, his dreams for himself & his life got put on hold early on, and definitely, he is exploring now who he wants to be, with a vengeance.  While his approach to relationships has been one of enmeshment & merger, quite quickly, he gets panicked that the other person is trying to capture him in some way.  Whence his statement to me, when I questioned him moving, that he is an "itinerant soul" and he appreciates the people who move through his life but would never try to capture them.

Which flies completely in the face of his very concerted effort to capture me, but he doesn't see that (and we haven't discussed that).

Hi P&C,

I'm at work so don't have the time to properly respond; a lot of things are going through my mind about what you've written... .  The very first thing that came to mind is the song "It ain't me babe", by Bob Dylan.  Are you familiar with it?

Seems super Dylanesque to me. Even maybe:


"All your seasick sailors, they are rowing home

All your reindeer armies, are all going home

The lover who just walked out your door

Has taken all his blankets from the floor

The carpet, too, is moving under you

And it’s all over now, Baby Blue

Leave your stepping stones behind, something calls for you

Forget the dead you’ve left, they will not follow you

The vagabond who’s rapping at your door

Is standing in the clothes that you once wore

Strike another match, go start anew

And it’s all over now, Baby Blue"

Ah, my cryptic friends.  Once you start going Dylan on me, I know there's no hope!

Do you mean that he has a self-concept that doesn't allow for sustained relationships?  And that I just need to accept that?

He does have a strong, persistent idea that he wants a deep, lasting love r/s.  He talked with me about that in the middle of a dysregulated episode  when we last saw each other, after we had a wonderful day together.  

His ability to find & maintain that is obviously a whole nother question, independent of his "self-concept."

My own theory is that his Dylanesque self-concept is his way of explaining to himself what happens in his life. He can't stay (with a person, in a place) so he rationalizes a value system to support that. But when we were together, it was so clear that he longs to find a resting place, too.

As I may have mentioned, he recently told me he finally saw he probably has an attachment disorder.  After all this time, he realized this--after watching a movie about a character w/an attachment disorder. And he's really wrestling w/the implications, though not wanting to talk w/me about it currently (I offered but didn't push). So it's not like he's completely self-satisfied w/his way of life.

My guess is that it's more of an "It Ain't Me" situation than anything else. Dylan has great (usually nasty) male/female dynamics numbers ("Just Like a Woman" has gotten me all fired up since about 1973 :). But usually he's not as straightforward in message as he was in "It Ain't Me." That song might be his gift to you . . . .

The title of this thread is, "Where Am I?" Wasn't there a Joni Mitchell line something like, "I'm as constant as the Northern Star. . . . Constantly in the dark, where's that at?"

The advice of people on this thread is really terrific, I think, and generous, and far beyond the cynicism that makes me believe he's purposely moving the carpet under you. (Like what's up with meeting your parents recently if he actually knows that he has this power to hurt you?) The advice, as it seems to me, is that this is all about you freeing yourself now, in the way that best suits you.

 

I just have some random commentary:


I agree.  Some pwBPD decide to rise to the occasion and some decide not to.  I am guessing you are fearful of this happening, but what have you got to lose?  You are not getting your needs met currently anyway.


This was his last primary attachment figure.  Before that it was his wife.  :)id he cheat on her?  Just curious.  Anyway, this is probably the best you can hope for.  Is that what you want?  And right now, it ain't looking too good since you guys are 1500 miles apart.  He will probably have short attachments and ultimately may meet another woman to have a primary attachment to where he is living now.  It's just how humans are socialized, BPD or not.  I think you are a long-distance support system that is always available.  Even though you don't behaviorally or verbally "chase", your eternal availability gives off an energy of pursuit that he is aware of and he readily takes your offer of friendship. Who wouldn't?  You sound like a lovely support system and friend. :)


This is a totally reasonable boundary, but you have to be willing to risk him disappearing.  Which leads me to this:


I totally agree with this.  I personally think best way to take care of yourself and heal your pain is to stop contact, get out of the FOG and feel the pain.  You sound sad, anxious, and extremely distressed in your posts.  I want to thump this guys head b/c he is an asshat to you.  I know you posted on staying and I am not supposed to post on here to stop contact, but it is just my opinion and I felt compelled to post b/c I care about you.

I agree with rosannadanna and also don't think you should hang your (ass)hat on this:


This is not too persuasive after the unhappy marriage, the brief flings, the longer relationships, the string of angry ex-lovers and the stint with the therapist.

I think the therapist expressed the opinion that the two of you should not be in a relationship, and I wonder if that opinion may have been expressed more for your protection than for his. Your suffering seems the one true, clear thing in this relationship. 

Yeah.  According to him (and taking it with a grain of salt) ... .the therapist did, exactly, say to him "you say you don't want to hurt her again? well, you are going to hurt her again."  He seemed bemused that she was more concerned about me than about what he wanted at that moment (to get back together."

I have resented that therapist so often ... .

So guys ... .I hear you.  But I see him acting like Dylan, not thinking/feeling like Dylan, if that makes sense.  I think he wants a stable, happy r/s but is terribly scared to claim it & really try.  (Like many people, and all the more so, many pwBPD.)  I think all I can do is act with integrity toward my own feelings, and not make assumptions about what he will do or how he will respond.  He has surprised me before, but only when I too took risks and stopped being so incredibly defensive.

I woke up this morning feeling like life is too short not to say what I feel about this, and that I have little to lose, and suddenly it didn't seem scary to do so.  I think I will say something that expresses that the push-pull is super hard on me and that if he wants in, he needs to understand that if he doesn't stay in, it makes it very hard for me to continue to be this open with and available to him.

Where my scared-ness about having such a conversation comes from is an interesting question.  Clearly I don't want to be rejected & abandoned by him all over again, but the fact is, that's happening on a monthly if not weekly basis already, cyclically.  I am afraid to lose the r/s.  And that is my Achilles' heel here, & I need to get over that.

I will say that in the past year, the suffering has seemed to come from the fact that we are not avowedly in a relationship, despite our closeness and connection.  Which is why it is tempting to think that changing that would make for less suffering.

Rise up!  |iiii You have nothing to lose but your chains.

And he's going to say, "We're on different planets.  You have a hidden agenda.  I told you we're just friends and blah blah blah".

And you're going to say/do?

He has definitely said it:

"We're on different planets."

"I'm an itinerant soul."

"You're naïve."

"You have a hidden agenda."

I vote for being completely truthful.

Patient, your posts on this thread are the basis of a research paper on your ex. There is a lot of analysis going on. Your mental energies are all about hypothesizing, observing and making conclusions about his behavior. You are trying so hard to figure him out. Maybe you've gleaned some good information you can use, but so far it seems your pile of information isn't that productive for you. 

Sometimes we overlook the symbols and get into the minutiae because we want to build a better mousetrap.

Look no further than the highly symbolic gesture of relocating a long distance to start over somewhere else without you in the plans. Maybe I'm wrong, but he didn't leave because he had family obligations, he didn't leave because a job required it. For his own reasons, he wants a different life.

Forget predicting his behavior based on his romantic situations in the past and wondering how you can play it.

And do you think he is in his new city analyzing and trying to predict your behavior as much as you do his? 

Wouldn't you feel better if you released yourself from all this?

Kate Cat -- "we're on different planets" was in response to my saying I wouldn't build something together only to pull it apart.  I think he meant that he feels I did that.  Not that we are on different planets generally -- that our view of how we came apart is worlds apart.

But overall, yes, to your points and Peas's, he left.  He said he's an itinerant soul.  It seems like that means he's headed away from me.  The thing is though, we've gotten closer since he left.  Confided more, made efforts to get together & explore hard areas together.  What do I make of that?  I've found that if I watch his actions, not his words, his actions show me togetherness, more than his words.

Kate Cat, what do you mean by "being completely truthful?"  With what goal?  Sounds like you think he is gone, gone, gone, and if so ... .what is the point of putting myself out there like that?  Just to have peace of mind that I didn't withhold my truth?


You're right Phoebe, that probably is how it will go.  I could conclude from that that I shouldn't explain what I'm feeling.  Or I could say: I am going to say "well, that is your reality, mine is that we have been very close, and that it doesn't work for me to go to those places and then have the ground fall away from under me."

Phoebe, you urge being true to yourself (thank you for that great theme!) but also seem to deal with your own disappointment in the r/s yourself, without voicing it, as "your stuff," not his problem.  Is that right?  If so, how does that map onto this situation?  That seems to counsel against the conversation I sketched out, doesn't it?

And in case it isn't clear from those questions ... .I am so grateful for these views, which all make a lot of sense, and am just asking clarifying questions to be sure I really understand the guidance you are giving.  I'm mulling what to do.

I think you should "declare yourself." You know, in an old-fashioned, declaration of love way. With the goal of having him say, very clearly, once and for all, what his intentions toward you are. In an old-fashioned way.

Otherwise, he has complete deniability for your suffering. He's "told you," but you keep coming back, like the Terminator. And it seems to be his gain and your loss.

I think you need to take pity on yourself in order to move forward, whichever way that is.

Also, a little part of me wonders how fair it is to other women who come and go from his life that there is a woman (I'm hoping not plural "women" like you always there, somewhere. Does it even advance his understanding of himself or his feelings about resuming therapy? Does it keep both of you stuck?

He's not really going to release you fully, ever, is he?

(Added: Your ability to listen to all this "cold water" stuff is really admirable and attractive. You are a role model to me in this, I tell ya.)

Gah ... .um, Kate ... .ok, but could you do it for me?  I'm scared.

How's that for attractive?

So, three questions.  One, doesn't this preclude the possibility of him gradually learning to trust me over time?  :)oing "baby steps" as he initially asked?  Isn't that a possible route to solid ground for us?

And second, if I do declare myself, what exactly am I declaring?  That I want to be with him despite that he has barely, if at all, set out on a course of exploring that he has attachment issues?  When I know that a r/s is not necessarily what he needs to deal with in the course of wrestling with the implications of that?  I've said before I'd be with him if he were ready.  He is probably not ready.  So what am I asking for, exactly?

And third, if I declare myself & he says "that's not how I see us" or whatever, then what?  I discontinue my friendship with him because he won't be my partner?  When we expressly made a deal that that was not the foundation of our friendship?

And if there is to be no change after all that ... .why am I declaring myself in the first place?

Could you ask him questions? Basic ones, like, "Who am I to you?"

Patient, you obviously are in love with him and want to be his girlfriend. No matter the amount of information you collect around any possibility there is a future with this man, you will be no further along in knowing where you stand until you straight-up tell him how you feel. A lot of what you are asking and saying this board you should be asking or telling him.

Are you working on this aspect yourself?




By the way, I have those exact same issues, the feelings and deep wounds of abandonment and being deprioritized. It has contributed a lot to anxiety in my relationships and resides in a pocket of sadness throughout my r/s's. It's almost like I can't truly relax with someone, and the more I'm in love with them more I feel threatened. 

I've told him, several times, that my feelings for him are what they were, plus with the added dimensions of what we've been through together since.  But that I am not asking him to do something he doesn't want to do or isn't able to do.  That is all still true.

What else should I say?

I hate to argue with my trusted advisors, but you guys, I don't know that I've read even one single story on these boards where someone declared themselves to a pwBPD who was trying to create or maintain distance, and that made anything better.  It is appealing to think there is something I can say that will make the situation better, because it creates this avenue to have some kind of control -- but it won't really, will it?  Like Phoebe points out, he will just say I have a hidden agenda, he knew it all along, I am trying to control him, yadayadayada.

His actions don't always line up with those words.  And his actions are confusing me.  But in the realm of words, where I talk to him -- there, he has all the control cards & he is not giving those away.

I already backed away and had NO CONTACT with this guy for 10 months because I loved him & it appeared he couldn't be my partner.  I told him all about that.  He didn't take any steps in response.  What exactly is likely to get better if I tell him again that I love him & want a life with him?

It feels like I need to decide what I want to do.  Like, step back.  Or, remain open but with more acceptance.

Phoebe suggested thinking about it as if this r/s were just starting, setting aside the past, taking all that happens at face value, being open to what unfolds.  That seems like the opposite of trying to get him to offer some sort of judgment now on where we might go.

I am also unsure of the value of asking him what is possible in the future, as I don't know that he knows or is an accurate predictor of his own future feelings.


Yes, in two different trauma therapy approaches.  It's clearly important to address that elsewhere, so I'm not trying to work it out in our ongoing r/s.

***

Right now, my fear and indecision are causing me to pull away from him pretty sharply.  Without explaining anything at all.  I don't feel great about that -- not brave, very defended.

Can you truly not tell him you are still in love with him and want to know whether your love is in vain?

|iiii I think you hit on something great right there.

You shouldn't want to lose this r/s; nobody would.

But living in fear of something like that can't be good for you--I know I'm a much happier kitty when I don't let my fears directly control my actions.

Wishing you the best at getting over it!

 GK

He will say it is in vain, as anyone will, until/unless the day comes when they decide they actually have those feelings too.  I've been in that position ... .having my ex at that time (not uBPDex) declare his feelings for me repeatedly wouldn't have changed mine, and I'd have said it was futile, I didn't want it.  But later, I did.  Asking someone else whether they are going to want a r/s with you in the future seems unhelpful, because they simply don't know.

And that's with your ordinary bear.  Isn't it 10 times more true with someone with BPD?

This guy (my recent BPD ex) dated the younger woman in my office for a few months, a year before we started seeing each other.  Off-on.  (I learned this from mutual friends after he left me.)  He eventually ended it, told me only that she wanted him & he had had to maintain boundaries (!), and that was that.

If she'd asked him while we were seeing each other whether her continuing feelings of love for him were in vain, he'd have said yes -- or if he's hedged, he'd have been being an incredible cad, to her and to me.

But weeks after he & I decided not to try again, he was pursuing her avidly.

I guess my point is that there is no permanent answer to that question, the relationship is in process like Phoebe has commented, and no matter what he says, it may be different later.  Right?  We know this about BPD.  So why go through the drama of asking?

Dear P and C 

It's your old friend the 'stuck record' back again! Sorry!

If it's at all possible for you I would really recommend doing nothing at all right now. Making no decisions. Changing nothing. Letting the whole thing just 'be'.

And then focus on the trauma therapy and exercise and anything else that feels helpful.

I know myself that if I'm not feeling strong and centred then it's best not to make big decisions or to start changing things.

I suspect it feels as if the only route to feeling relaxed and happy lies in 'sorting this r/s out'. I would suggest - conversely - that the only way to 'sort this r/s out' is - for a while - to do other things that promote relaxation, strength and happiness. And then see how you feel.

This means that you don't have to choose between cutting him off and telling him you love him. Which should be a relief in itself!

This doesn't mean that I don't think that this whole experience with your ex/friend is the root cause of all the difficult, tangled stuff you're feeling now. Sadly he seems to be a one-man emotional avalanche. But I don't think that direct efforts to look for the answer to the damage he's caused in your current, ongoing relationship with him will yield very much.

Sending very warm  . WWT.

No, that is not right, I DO voice disappointment in the relationship.  I don't voice it in one full swoop though, as in, 'Your doing that, makes me do this!'.  No matter how nicely it's phrased. Blame blame blame.  It's more like, 'Ew, I feel weird about this', then giving him the space to modify while taking care of myself.

I made a lot of mountains out of molehills earlier on, a lot of black & white declarations.  And I got a lot of hurt lobbed my way, while trying to change who he is.

If I know he's going to react a certain way, why set myself AND him up for it?  Unless I am totally and completely ready to hear him, BELIEVE what he says, then act on this information, I'll let it go as far as declaring anything to him, because nothing is going to change if I keep doing the same old thing.  I can say all kinds of things, my behaviors will give me away every single time though.  And then he knows I'm full of it.  Full of fear of losing him with the extra added bonus of not accepting him, all the while unhappiness abounds!  For both of us.

I question your love for him.  Is it really love or is it obsession?

When he said, "We're on different planets", why didn't you ask 'in the moment', "What do you mean?"  Instead there has been all kinds of analysis about what you think he might've meant by that.  And if he straight up told you what he meant, would you believe it?  Or is there more interest in what you think he really means because of this that and the other... .?

Let's say that he is absolutely 100% an itinerant soul, a Dylanesque Man.  Can you accept that?  If you want stability, can you attach your future to an itinerant soul?  Or will you always be longing for more?

P&C, I used to long for more, too.  I longed for the white picket fence (had one growing up).  I longed for the love affair of the ages, where we're one against the world and can handle anything and everything with grace and dignity... .  I lived in fantasyland!  Life isn't that easy or lovely.  Real things, like mental illness, exist.  So do bills and disagreements and day to day mundane tasks.  I can't wish it away.  My love doesn't conquer all.  And I can't change another person.

I was in love with the idea of love!  The thoughts of love that swirled through my head, that even when lovely acts of kindness were bestowed upon me, I couldn't recognize them as 'love', because they didn't match the ideal fantasy version of what was going on in my head.

I can't help but think that what you're wanting to do right now is another version of the same old cycle.  How different is it than when your relationship originally ended?


The reason I asked this is because I'm curious if you know?  Without anybody else's input or analysis.  What are you going to say/do?

Because if you don't know, it's just more of the same and you're setting yourself up for more hurt and another cycle.

Well, this isn't any oldies love song I've ever heard of!

Not Fleetwood Mac's "The Chain": "And if you don't love me now, you will never love me again. I can still hear you sayin' you would never break the chain."

Not Diana Ross's "Set Me Free": "Set me free, why don't you babe? Get outta my life, my don't you babe? You don't really want me, you just keep me hanging on."

Not even Janis Joplin's "Piece of my Heart," maybe: "Go on,  break it, break another little bit of my heart, now baby."

So I got nothing.

Thanks for this, this makes sense, & this what I am inclined to do, rather than make some big declaration of love.


Exactly.


Interesting.  And challenging. I do think it is love.  But the combination of push-pull (he tells me I'm so important, acts like this is so important, then drops away) and the fact that I've been reliably punished with silent treatment & withdrawal for trying to talk about our r/s, can create an obsessive dynamic.  I want out of that -- which is what this thread is about.  I want to love him as he is, accepting him, without hurting. It've managed the first two (love him as he is, acting as if I am accepting him) but I haven't managed the third part, doing that without hurt.  It hurts.  I want to change that.  I don't know how.


There were other things said in that email (I wrote about it here) & I did ask questions about them.  I've considered writing since & asking what he meant by this particular piece, too.  No, I desperately want to know what he thinks about it all, it's just that he is incredibly, incredibly averse to communicating with me about it.  If I mention our past r/s at all, he either ignores the communication completely or answers in such a terse, clipped way it is clear he doesn't want to talk about it.


I can accept him as an itinerant soul.  I've been married, I have a kid, I don't have a need for a white picket fence, I don't have any particular vision of our r/s.  And I've told him that.  I just want him to stay with me (emotionally) if he loves me.  That's the only kind of stability I am looking for.  And it doesn't need to mean constant communication or anything.  I just want us to be true, in some fashion, to the feelings between us, if they are real, which I think they are, which he acts like they are -- except when he doesn't.


I don't think this is what I've got going on.  I've had more the opposite problem -- I've recognized all his little odd gestures as "love," and possibly even over-interpreted them as love.  I am not trying to make this be anything in particular.  The only thing is, I am probably still taking seriously his original declarations of love for me as some sort of deeper "truth" -- he "really" loves me -- in the face of conflicting actions now.  But you see, he gives me enough current material to work with to justify that.  He acts like he loves me, except when he doesn't.  And even then, I can see that that dynamic may be driven by caring too much, not too little.  Fear of loss, etc.  So I have a story in my head that he "really" loves me, based on our original r/s and what he told me when we were breaking up.  And then I have new material that continues to reinforce that that is probably true.  And then I have all of the leaving.

And the leaving just breaks my heart, over, and over, and over.  He finds new and creative ways to leave me all the time.  Sure, he comes back, but each time he goes, it feels like he takes a little bit of my heart with him.  (Just saw your post Kate Cat -- the Joplin fits pretty darn well!) It's not good.  Either I have to feel differently about it, or I have to change the dynamic somehow.  My impulse is to try to get him to not leave, but that isn't going to work, is it?

I suspect where this is going, after I take my friend WWT's advice about doing nothing for a little longer, is saying something very much like your "ew, this feels weird," Phoebe.  Not any big declarations or complaints.


When our r/s originally ended, I was clear for him about my feelings, that I didn't want it to end, but when he was adamant that it couldn't work, I said I accepted it, because this is all voluntary, and if his feelings didn't match what he'd said, well, I couldn't hold onto what he said.  It was devastating and traumatizing, but not horribly confusing, at that point.

What happened after that is what has messed with and continues to mess with my mind so much.  He began to reveal that his words and actions of rejection were a facade, and underneath, he desperately still wanted us to be together, but he didn't know why he'd pushed me away.  I didn't, and don't, know what the right thing to do with that is.

And since then, when he's pushed me away, and I've reacted by saying "ok, I'm away then," he's reached out just as fervently to say "oh no, I didn't really want you to be AWAY."  So I can't just "accept" his distancing as his true position -- it isn't.

And when I ask what's going on, he goes silent.  Sometimes incredibly silent.  So when people recommend that I just "talk to him," my internal reaction is that that will be greeted with one of the most painful experiences of my life -- again.


I don't want to set myself up again for that cycle.  You are exactly right.  I already know that story.

I think the confusion you all see in this thread is that, because where we are feels rotten, I'm trying to make changes, and I'm straddling the choice between (A) being brave and trying to make this r/s more -- let it be what it can be -- by being more open and risking more, not getting all defended in the face of his push behavior, working on further acceptance of who & how he is, trying to eliminate my hurt reactions to that somehow ... .and (B) guarding against additional hurt and additional push-pull damage by shutting down, withdrawing, and not letting him in so much any more.  Not going with him the next time he pulls. Not finding it meaningful that he pulls.  Letting go of the idea that he "really" loves me.  Even though I bet if there were some objective truth meter available, the objective truth is that he does really love me.  But the continuous withdrawal of that love is just a killer.

And because I cannot decide between course A & course B, because the first is a risk (and I haven't achieved that level of acceptance) and the second is a waste, I get stuck in the middle, doing neither.

Hi P&C,

If he has BPD or some sort of attachment disorder, he is not capable of being emotionally present all of the time.  He cannot 'stay' there.  And when I got super honest with myself, I'm not always 'there' either.  It's not the end of the world or even that big of a deal unless I want to make it one.

Acceptance lets us get on with it already lol  It stops the ruminating and what if thoughts... .

Your relationship is different because you live so far apart, there's a lot of space to fill with wonder... . There's also enough distance to accept that it is what it is.

How about rather than feeling this need to talk about what is going on between you (answers for the past, present and future), you feel what it is going on inside yourself and act accordingly.  

Because you care, you want to be authentic.  Not in any big dramatic fashion, all or nothing.  Nuanced, interested and interesting.  Be who you really are... . 


 

Dear P&C,

I've been so busy right now, I haven't been able to properly respond to the thread I'd started, nor Connect's either to the degree I'd like, and will hopefully be able to do so in the next week or so.

I've been reading short bits though and it's easy to see how this tears at you and I'm so sorry you're going through it.  And wanted to respond quickly for now.

One recurring theme I noticed previously in my own r/s situation,which I've stopped was this: I was projecting into the future possibilities and "living off them" so to speak, instead of looking at TODAY.  Where it stands Today, what the reality of the situation is TODAY, etc. and going from there.   I have to remind myself to live in TODAY.  Not yesterday, not longing for tomorrow, etc.  Not living "what if's".   

Accepting the relationship is exactly as it exists today and respond accordingly.  Knowing this is all it ever may be.   This doesn't mean just leaving it up to him.  This means how practical is it if he's 1500 miles away and has NO plans to return at this point?  This means recognizing it for what he says at FACE value, along with his ACTIONS. 

It's practical to remain friends, if he can be a friend to you as well.  If he feels distance and tries to pull you back in so he's comfortable?  You can respond by saying something like, 'I love our friendship and it means the world to me.  I also realize you're 1500 miles away with no plans to return, you want to remain friends and are uncomfortable discussing or considering anything else from our relationship beyond this level of friendship.  I'm happy to do so and remain friends.  I also have to focus on my own life and my own happiness and future; I need to keep it in perspective for my own sake.  I have to recognize it for what it is and be there when I can while I get on with my own life as well.'  (boundaries)

The other thing (and I wanted to say this to Connect as well about other women, but can apply it to this in a more broad sense) is to accept radically these are things we cannot control and stop allowing them to create anxiety in our minds because of the FEAR of getting hurt again.

I don't want to be hurt, nor do you, nor does Connect, nor does anyone of us who walks this earth.  We accept we're in relationships with someone who is emotionally disordered.   This means in itself we're exposing ourselves to the possibilities of being hurt by their behaviors more than we might with someone who may not be disordered.  We need to evaluate it and get out if we don't want to accept it.   

We can't control what they do.  Not if we're within 10 miles or 1500 miles.   If they choose to be with someone else, they're going to be with someone else.  There are times when I've been away my bf has gone to a bar where there are plenty of single women.  I've accepted I'm 1500 miles away and if he's going to get involved elsewhere and damage the relationship, no amount of me getting upset or interrogating him is going to change it.  If it happens, I will deal with it.  It will hurt, and HE will not be in a relationship with me if he chooses to do it.  We think we can avoid pain by being hyper vigilant to these things and it's a panacea of sorts, as if it's going to prevent them, but it's an illusion. 

We aren't going to stop that behavior, nor ANY OTHER, by questioning them repeatedly in detail because we're driven by the fear of the unknown, by becoming anxious about it, by putting our own lives on hold or by avoiding going out with friends, or doing our own interests.  In fact many of those behaviors in trying to avoid what we FEAR they are doing to cause us pain, actually causes them to react poorly to us, and we make ourselves miserable.   

I think we have to ACCEPT if we choose to be involved with them, it's quite possible we will have to deal with hurt and get through the pain of it and have faith in ourselves that we will be able to do so.  (easy to say)

OUR OWN FEARS are what drive us to these places.  When we accept that we are powerless over their choices and can only do what is best for ourselves and accept the outcomes as they unfold, I think we reach the point where we can enjoy them for who they are and what they can give us TODAY.   And only we can decide if it's enough for us or not.  Only we can decide if we are willing to accept that risk because they do have BPD.

I hope this makes sense.  I care about my bf, and he knows it. 

One thing I stuck with and have continued, was to let go each time he bounced back being undecided with his ex.  I did not chase him.  I in fact refused to remain in contact with him more than once.

He knows I will not chase him even now.  He knows, although he's made plenty of messes, he has to meet me half way at a minimum or I will not remain in the relationship with him.  I may struggle with handling the behaviors and with the lessons.  Yet, this is completely separate from the fact he does know I'm willing to let the relationship go if it becomes too painful or if he crosses certain lines.

As much as I may (try to) understand his disorder, I can still stand separately and see the behavior for what it is at times without making excuses and call it what it is, and say to myself, "hell no".  It's manipulative at times, it's immature at times... .it's... .etc.   I refuse to accept some of them, whether I understand why he does it or not, and I will not thereby allow and accept any and all behaviors that hurt me just to maintain the relationship. 

P&C, this isn't a criticism  .  I admire your insight.  Your words have opened my mind more than once.  Yet at times I wonder if you're being so understanding of BPD that it almost seems you're trying to rationalize why the behavior is "okay", and think you can "understand" away the pain it causes you as well.   You can't.  It still hurts, it doesn't always matter "why" he does it.  It still is what it is.  And we have to honor ourselves too.  You know?  This doesn't mean you can't stay in touch with him at all, at least for TODAY if you can accept it for what it is and respond accordingly.  If you can keep in mind what the relationship is and isn't in your "rational wise mind".  You focus on where it is, and what it is TODAY. 

Look at it this way. Extreme example, but it's an analogy.   If a person w/ BPD punches you in the face because they have uncontrolled anger, is it okay?  You can understand why all you want to, but it doesn't make it okay.  You can't allow them to punch you in the face just because you know why they do it.

Just because we understand why they act the way they do doesn't MEAN IT ISN"T rude, manipulating, cold, hurtful, callous or uncaring of them to do it at the moment.  I think we do ourselves an injustice when we don't recognize it for what it is, even if we have an understanding of why.  I may not hate my bf for his behavior because I understand he has a disorder, but it doesn't mean I'll accept it and remain if he continues doing certain things.  They hurt too much.

The emotional "punches" are the same as the physical ones.  Figuring out what we can do to avoid triggering, knowing what we know and using the "tools" etc, and to what degree we're willing to do so is the tricky part. 

Sometimes I think you're not wanting to see the behaviors for what they are in order to avoid the pain of the consequences in saying "no" to them.   And I don't mean "verbalizing" NO to your friend.  I mean saying within yourself "no" and acting accordingly because your behavior naturally adjusts via your attitude, which isn't necessarily deliberate but a natural extension of you taking care of yourself.  And seeing things for what they are TODAY. 

Also, another tough question.  P&C why do you think you're different than any other woman before you?  Are you counting on your understanding of BPD as a "special exception"? (I ask because I had to ask myself these things)

Are you counting on him realizing if you're understanding enough and hang in enough and take enough of his behavior, it will be enough to motivate make him want a romantic relationship?  If so, is that realistic given what you know about not only BPD, but human interactions with ex relationship partners in general?

I'm rambling a bit here, but hope this makes sense.  Catch up with you all soon.

shellsSea 

Seashells... .

Wow!  You got it goin' on and are a beautiful writer :)

clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |iiii

 

|iiii

P&C,

You wouldn't expect a diabetic friend to eat and behave the way non-diabetics do. You would accept he has diabetes and either (1) ate what he eats; (2) ate your thing and he ate his; (3) chose to eat with another friend if you wanted someone to join you in eating what you want to eat.

You would not keep wishing his diabetes away (hopefully).

Still, you keep wanting a diabetic not to be diabetic. You keep wanting to understand his diabetes away. You keep wanting him to eat what he cannot eat.

A child goes, "I want that, I want that, I want that!" Even though she cannot realistically have it.

Who do you think is the realistic one here? You or him?

Question for you:

Do you understand that he cannot do what you want from him? That he is incapable of it?

Your first task is to see if you are able to accepting that.

If you are - and if you do - then your choice will be more clear what to do.

If you are not - you will keep coming back here, with variations of same questions. Nothing will significantly change. Which is ok, too. That, too, is your choice.  :light:

I agree!  P&C, I just wanted to briefly chime in (as I'm time-crunched, too) and say that I'm sorry to hear you're struggling.  Also, I completely agree with every bit of Seashells' post.  I couldn't have said it better myself!

Seashells,

Preach it, girl!

Seashells ... .thank you.  I agree with everyone else about your great post.

Here is my question though.

In the end, this man's "problematic behavior" is just his coming & going.  It is only objectionable if you want to rail against the fundamental behavior of BPD, as many of you have pointed out.  He doesn't rage, he doesn't "cheat," in that we have formally defined our r/s as such that such a category doesn't exist.

And yet, the coming & going is super painful.

So I hear you (and others) about acceptance, living in the present, not playing out "what ifs."

But I'm not sure I get what y'all mean when you say I rationalize his bad behavior in terms of BPD.  That is exactly what it is, is it not?

So all that remains is for me to decide if it hurts too much for me to continue to allow him to have the access to me he seeks when he is in a "pull" mode.  And frankly, that is where I am today.  I've stepped back considerably and am not planning that we will have the same degree of emotional familiarity that we have had.  We were planning to meet each other in a third city in a few months, but where I am right now, that doesn't really make sense.

It feels almost as if we don't even know each other right now.  Even though, less than two weeks ago, we were closer than we'd been since we were "in love."  It is just the hardest thing to assimilate.  You all are right, I haven't fully accepted that the "away" parts are as much a natural part of the r/s as the together parts.  I keep thinking they are a mistake somehow, a mistake that can be rectified if I figure out the magic words or the magic thing to do.

Hi P&C  

I'm sorry you are still going through this with your ex. . .and I can tell it's causing you a lot of pain  

I think perhaps what others are trying to say is that BPD or not, there are some behaviours that if are hurting you, you have to step up and place a boundary. . .not be scared to do so and have to be willing to accept their reaction.  There are going to be times BPD or not that he will have to decide if he is going to step up and modify his behaviour.

I have just finished reading Stop Caretaking the Borderline. . .it mentions, when communicating, avoid using 'you'.

So. . .

It's important to me in a friendship to be consistent and not be really close at one time and then no contact

If that happens I feel I'm not valued as a friend

And if that continued I'd have to withdraw my friendship. . .you get the idea and then it would be up to him to step up to the mark or not.  

There is also a note to giving up any 'hope' in a BPD r/s. . .I know  

And also that, BPDs think only in the present, not the past or future. . .so I know it hurts you but he likely does not hold on to the same feelings of your past as you.  It really is very hard to process it, I know.

I wish you luck in whatever you decide  

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