where am I?

[patientandclear]

He works hard, is incredibly self-disciplined, and is super, super frugal.  Trauma deprivation-style super frugal.  He has savings & he is living off of them while working to become a serious artist.  I really respect all of that.

He switches passionate life interests every two years or so.  It remains to be seen if the current dedication to art will survive the usual disillusionment window.  I hope so.

He is quite devoted to his kids, who are also wanderers.

Yes, exactly, his dreams for himself & his life got put on hold early on, and definitely, he is exploring now who he wants to be, with a vengeance.  While his approach to relationships has been one of enmeshment & merger, quite quickly, he gets panicked that the other person is trying to capture him in some way.  Whence his statement to me, when I questioned him moving, that he is an "itinerant soul" and he appreciates the people who move through his life but would never try to capture them.

Which flies completely in the face of his very concerted effort to capture me, but he doesn't see that (and we haven't discussed that).

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[123Phoebe]

Hi P&C,

I'm at work so don't have the time to properly respond; a lot of things are going through my mind about what you've written... .  The very first thing that came to mind is the song "It ain't me babe", by Bob Dylan.  Are you familiar with it?

[KateCat]

Seems super Dylanesque to me. Even maybe:


"All your seasick sailors, they are rowing home

All your reindeer armies, are all going home

The lover who just walked out your door

Has taken all his blankets from the floor

The carpet, too, is moving under you

And it’s all over now, Baby Blue

Leave your stepping stones behind, something calls for you

Forget the dead you’ve left, they will not follow you

The vagabond who’s rapping at your door

Is standing in the clothes that you once wore

Strike another match, go start anew

And it’s all over now, Baby Blue"

[patientandclear]

Ah, my cryptic friends.  Once you start going Dylan on me, I know there's no hope!

Do you mean that he has a self-concept that doesn't allow for sustained relationships?  And that I just need to accept that?

He does have a strong, persistent idea that he wants a deep, lasting love r/s.  He talked with me about that in the middle of a dysregulated episode  when we last saw each other, after we had a wonderful day together.  

His ability to find & maintain that is obviously a whole nother question, independent of his "self-concept."

My own theory is that his Dylanesque self-concept is his way of explaining to himself what happens in his life. He can't stay (with a person, in a place) so he rationalizes a value system to support that. But when we were together, it was so clear that he longs to find a resting place, too.

As I may have mentioned, he recently told me he finally saw he probably has an attachment disorder.  After all this time, he realized this--after watching a movie about a character w/an attachment disorder. And he's really wrestling w/the implications, though not wanting to talk w/me about it currently (I offered but didn't push). So it's not like he's completely self-satisfied w/his way of life.

[KateCat]

My guess is that it's more of an "It Ain't Me" situation than anything else. Dylan has great (usually nasty) male/female dynamics numbers ("Just Like a Woman" has gotten me all fired up since about 1973 . But usually he's not as straightforward in message as he was in "It Ain't Me." That song might be his gift to you . . . .

The title of this thread is, "Where Am I?" Wasn't there a Joni Mitchell line something like, "I'm as constant as the Northern Star. . . . Constantly in the dark, where's that at?"

The advice of people on this thread is really terrific, I think, and generous, and far beyond the cynicism that makes me believe he's purposely moving the carpet under you. (Like what's up with meeting your parents recently if he actually knows that he has this power to hurt you?) The advice, as it seems to me, is that this is all about you freeing yourself now, in the way that best suits you.

 

[rosannadanna]

I just have some random commentary:

I gotta say... .the story I hear from Phoebe is one of the changes she made for herself... .and that her pwBPD decided to rise to the occasion when she made her changes.

I agree.  Some pwBPD decide to rise to the occasion and some decide not to.  I am guessing you are fearful of this happening, but what have you got to lose?  You are not getting your needs met currently anyway.

For the first 10 years, that was interspersed with a r/s he kept leaving & coming back to, with a woman whose name he now (sort of joking, sort of not) refuses to speak.  He'd break up with her, have a brief affair, come back to her.  They split for good 5 years ago.

This was his last primary attachment figure.  Before that it was his wife.  :)id he cheat on her?  Just curious.  Anyway, this is probably the best you can hope for.  Is that what you want?  And right now, it ain't looking too good since you guys are 1500 miles apart.  He will probably have short attachments and ultimately may meet another woman to have a primary attachment to where he is living now.  It's just how humans are socialized, BPD or not.  I think you are a long-distance support system that is always available.  Even though you don't behaviorally or verbally "chase", your eternal availability gives off an energy of pursuit that he is aware of and he readily takes your offer of friendship. Who wouldn't?  You sound like a lovely support system and friend.

I'm wondering if it is time for you to re-negotiate the terms of being "friends" with him: Given your history and current (or at least recent) intimacy, perhaps this friendship should include him at least telling you if he is seriously dating (or sleeping with) another woman, and should include you telling him the same if you start seriously dating another guy.

Given what you have said, I wouldn't be surprised if this resulted in him disappearing for a few days/weeks/months, rather than agreeing.

This is a totally reasonable boundary, but you have to be willing to risk him disappearing.  Which leads me to this:

-it doesn't sound like you are feeling your feelings much.  Like you are denying them because of the past hurts and being hurt again.  Vulnerability is hard especially if you you are dealing with trauma.  It sounds like you don't feel secure in saying this isn't okay with me and I need different or more or whatever - regardless if what he will do.

I totally agree with this.  I personally think best way to take care of yourself and heal your pain is to stop contact, get out of the FOG and feel the pain.  You sound sad, anxious, and extremely distressed in your posts.  I want to thump this guys head b/c he is an asshat to you.  I know you posted on staying and I am not supposed to post on here to stop contact, but it is just my opinion and I felt compelled to post b/c I care about you.

[KateCat]

I agree with rosannadanna and also don't think you should hang your (ass)hat on this:

he recently told me he finally saw he probably has an attachment disorder.  

This is not too persuasive after the unhappy marriage, the brief flings, the longer relationships, the string of angry ex-lovers and the stint with the therapist.

I think the therapist expressed the opinion that the two of you should not be in a relationship, and I wonder if that opinion may have been expressed more for your protection than for his. Your suffering seems the one true, clear thing in this relationship. 

[patientandclear]

I think the therapist expressed the opinion that the two of you should not be in a relationship, and I wonder if that opinion may have been expressed more for your protection than for his. Your suffering seems the one true, clear thing in this relationship.  

Yeah.  According to him (and taking it with a grain of salt) ... .the therapist did, exactly, say to him "you say you don't want to hurt her again? well, you are going to hurt her again."  He seemed bemused that she was more concerned about me than about what he wanted at that moment (to get back together."

I have resented that therapist so often ... .

So guys ... .I hear you.  But I see him acting like Dylan, not thinking/feeling like Dylan, if that makes sense.  I think he wants a stable, happy r/s but is terribly scared to claim it & really try.  (Like many people, and all the more so, many pwBPD.)  I think all I can do is act with integrity toward my own feelings, and not make assumptions about what he will do or how he will respond.  He has surprised me before, but only when I too took risks and stopped being so incredibly defensive.

I woke up this morning feeling like life is too short not to say what I feel about this, and that I have little to lose, and suddenly it didn't seem scary to do so.  I think I will say something that expresses that the push-pull is super hard on me and that if he wants in, he needs to understand that if he doesn't stay in, it makes it very hard for me to continue to be this open with and available to him.

Where my scared-ness about having such a conversation comes from is an interesting question.  Clearly I don't want to be rejected & abandoned by him all over again, but the fact is, that's happening on a monthly if not weekly basis already, cyclically.  I am afraid to lose the r/s.  And that is my Achilles' heel here, & I need to get over that.

[patientandclear]

I think the therapist expressed the opinion that the two of you should not be in a relationship, and I wonder if that opinion may have been expressed more for your protection than for his. Your suffering seems the one true, clear thing in this relationship.  

I will say that in the past year, the suffering has seemed to come from the fact that we are not avowedly in a relationship, despite our closeness and connection.  Which is why it is tempting to think that changing that would make for less suffering.

[KateCat]

Rise up!  You have nothing to lose but your chains.

[123Phoebe]

I think I will say something that expresses that the push-pull is super hard on me and that if he wants in, he needs to understand that if he doesn't stay in, it makes it very hard for me to continue to be this open with and available to him.

And he's going to say, "We're on different planets.  You have a hidden agenda.  I told you we're just friends and blah blah blah".

And you're going to say/do?

[KateCat]

He has definitely said it:

"We're on different planets."

"I'm an itinerant soul."

"You're naïve."

"You have a hidden agenda."

I vote for being completely truthful.

[peas]

Patient, your posts on this thread are the basis of a research paper on your ex. There is a lot of analysis going on. Your mental energies are all about hypothesizing, observing and making conclusions about his behavior. You are trying so hard to figure him out. Maybe you've gleaned some good information you can use, but so far it seems your pile of information isn't that productive for you. 

Sometimes we overlook the symbols and get into the minutiae because we want to build a better mousetrap.

Look no further than the highly symbolic gesture of relocating a long distance to start over somewhere else without you in the plans. Maybe I'm wrong, but he didn't leave because he had family obligations, he didn't leave because a job required it. For his own reasons, he wants a different life.

Forget predicting his behavior based on his romantic situations in the past and wondering how you can play it.

And do you think he is in his new city analyzing and trying to predict your behavior as much as you do his? 

Wouldn't you feel better if you released yourself from all this?

[patientandclear]

He has definitely said it:

"We're on different planets."

"I'm an itinerant soul."

"You're naïve."

"You have a hidden agenda."

I vote for being completely truthful.

Kate Cat -- "we're on different planets" was in response to my saying I wouldn't build something together only to pull it apart.  I think he meant that he feels I did that.  Not that we are on different planets generally -- that our view of how we came apart is worlds apart.

But overall, yes, to your points and Peas's, he left.  He said he's an itinerant soul.  It seems like that means he's headed away from me.  The thing is though, we've gotten closer since he left.  Confided more, made efforts to get together & explore hard areas together.  What do I make of that?  I've found that if I watch his actions, not his words, his actions show me togetherness, more than his words.

Kate Cat, what do you mean by "being completely truthful?"  With what goal?  Sounds like you think he is gone, gone, gone, and if so ... .what is the point of putting myself out there like that?  Just to have peace of mind that I didn't withhold my truth?

I think I will say something that expresses that the push-pull is super hard on me and that if he wants in, he needs to understand that if he doesn't stay in, it makes it very hard for me to continue to be this open with and available to him.

And he's going to say, "We're on different planets.  You have a hidden agenda.  I told you we're just friends and blah blah blah".

And you're going to say/do?

You're right Phoebe, that probably is how it will go.  I could conclude from that that I shouldn't explain what I'm feeling.  Or I could say: I am going to say "well, that is your reality, mine is that we have been very close, and that it doesn't work for me to go to those places and then have the ground fall away from under me."

Phoebe, you urge being true to yourself (thank you for that great theme!) but also seem to deal with your own disappointment in the r/s yourself, without voicing it, as "your stuff," not his problem.  Is that right?  If so, how does that map onto this situation?  That seems to counsel against the conversation I sketched out, doesn't it?

[patientandclear]

And in case it isn't clear from those questions ... .I am so grateful for these views, which all make a lot of sense, and am just asking clarifying questions to be sure I really understand the guidance you are giving.  I'm mulling what to do.

[KateCat]

Kate Cat, what do you mean by "being completely truthful?"  With what goal?  Sounds like you think he is gone, gone, gone, and if so ... .what is the point of putting myself out there like that?  Just to have peace of mind that I didn't withhold my truth?

I think you should "declare yourself." You know, in an old-fashioned, declaration of love way. With the goal of having him say, very clearly, once and for all, what his intentions toward you are. In an old-fashioned way.

Otherwise, he has complete deniability for your suffering. He's "told you," but you keep coming back, like the Terminator. And it seems to be his gain and your loss.

I think you need to take pity on yourself in order to move forward, whichever way that is.

Also, a little part of me wonders how fair it is to other women who come and go from his life that there is a woman (I'm hoping not plural "women" like you always there, somewhere. Does it even advance his understanding of himself or his feelings about resuming therapy? Does it keep both of you stuck?

He's not really going to release you fully, ever, is he?

(Added: Your ability to listen to all this "cold water" stuff is really admirable and attractive. You are a role model to me in this, I tell ya.)

[patientandclear]

Kate Cat, what do you mean by "being completely truthful?"  With what goal?  Sounds like you think he is gone, gone, gone, and if so ... .what is the point of putting myself out there like that?  Just to have peace of mind that I didn't withhold my truth?

I think you should "declare yourself." You know, in an old-fashioned, declaration of love way. With the goal of having him say, very clearly, once and for all, what his intentions toward you are. In an old-fashioned way.

***

Also, a little part of me wonders how fair it is to other women who come and go from his life that there is a woman (I'm hoping not plural "women" like you always there, somewhere. Does it even advance his understanding of himself or his feelings about resuming therapy? Does it keep both of you stuck?

He's not really going to release you fully, ever, is he?

(Added: Your ability to listen to all this "cold water" stuff is really admirable and attractive. You are a role model to me in this, I tell ya.)

Gah ... .um, Kate ... .ok, but could you do it for me?  I'm scared.

How's that for attractive?

So, three questions.  One, doesn't this preclude the possibility of him gradually learning to trust me over time?  :)oing "baby steps" as he initially asked?  Isn't that a possible route to solid ground for us?

And second, if I do declare myself, what exactly am I declaring?  That I want to be with him despite that he has barely, if at all, set out on a course of exploring that he has attachment issues?  When I know that a r/s is not necessarily what he needs to deal with in the course of wrestling with the implications of that?  I've said before I'd be with him if he were ready.  He is probably not ready.  So what am I asking for, exactly?

And third, if I declare myself & he says "that's not how I see us" or whatever, then what?  I discontinue my friendship with him because he won't be my partner?  When we expressly made a deal that that was not the foundation of our friendship?

And if there is to be no change after all that ... .why am I declaring myself in the first place?

[KateCat]

Could you ask him questions? Basic ones, like, "Who am I to you?"

[peas]

Patient, you obviously are in love with him and want to be his girlfriend. No matter the amount of information you collect around any possibility there is a future with this man, you will be no further along in knowing where you stand until you straight-up tell him how you feel. A lot of what you are asking and saying this board you should be asking or telling him.

Are you working on this aspect yourself?

The memories of abandonment & being deprioritized compared to other women in my past relationships, & the obvious connection to my fear that uBPDex is choosing another woman over me... .are really powerful.

By the way, I have those exact same issues, the feelings and deep wounds of abandonment and being deprioritized. It has contributed a lot to anxiety in my relationships and resides in a pocket of sadness throughout my r/s's. It's almost like I can't truly relax with someone, and the more I'm in love with them more I feel threatened. 

[patientandclear]

Patient, you obviously are in love with him and want to be his girlfriend. No matter the amount of information you collect around any possibility there is a future with this man, you will be no further along in knowing where you stand until you straight-up tell him how you feel. A lot of what you are asking and saying this board you should be asking or telling him.

I've told him, several times, that my feelings for him are what they were, plus with the added dimensions of what we've been through together since.  But that I am not asking him to do something he doesn't want to do or isn't able to do.  That is all still true.

What else should I say?

I hate to argue with my trusted advisors, but you guys, I don't know that I've read even one single story on these boards where someone declared themselves to a pwBPD who was trying to create or maintain distance, and that made anything better.  It is appealing to think there is something I can say that will make the situation better, because it creates this avenue to have some kind of control -- but it won't really, will it?  Like Phoebe points out, he will just say I have a hidden agenda, he knew it all along, I am trying to control him, yadayadayada.

His actions don't always line up with those words.  And his actions are confusing me.  But in the realm of words, where I talk to him -- there, he has all the control cards & he is not giving those away.

I already backed away and had NO CONTACT with this guy for 10 months because I loved him & it appeared he couldn't be my partner.  I told him all about that.  He didn't take any steps in response.  What exactly is likely to get better if I tell him again that I love him & want a life with him?

It feels like I need to decide what I want to do.  Like, step back.  Or, remain open but with more acceptance.

Phoebe suggested thinking about it as if this r/s were just starting, setting aside the past, taking all that happens at face value, being open to what unfolds.  That seems like the opposite of trying to get him to offer some sort of judgment now on where we might go.

I am also unsure of the value of asking him what is possible in the future, as I don't know that he knows or is an accurate predictor of his own future feelings.

Are you working on this aspect yourself?

The memories of abandonment & being deprioritized compared to other women in my past relationships, & the obvious connection to my fear that uBPDex is choosing another woman over me... .are really powerful.

Yes, in two different trauma therapy approaches.  It's clearly important to address that elsewhere, so I'm not trying to work it out in our ongoing r/s.

***

Right now, my fear and indecision are causing me to pull away from him pretty sharply.  Without explaining anything at all.  I don't feel great about that -- not brave, very defended.

[KateCat]

Can you truly not tell him you are still in love with him and want to know whether your love is in vain?

[Grey Kitty]

 Clearly I don't want to be rejected & abandoned by him all over again, but the fact is, that's happening on a monthly if not weekly basis already, cyclically.  I am afraid to lose the r/s.  And that is my Achilles' heel here, & I need to get over that.

I think you hit on something great right there.

You shouldn't want to lose this r/s; nobody would.

But living in fear of something like that can't be good for you--I know I'm a much happier kitty when I don't let my fears directly control my actions.

Wishing you the best at getting over it!

 GK

[patientandclear]

Can you truly not tell him you are still in love with him and want to know whether your love is in vain?

He will say it is in vain, as anyone will, until/unless the day comes when they decide they actually have those feelings too.  I've been in that position ... .having my ex at that time (not uBPDex) declare his feelings for me repeatedly wouldn't have changed mine, and I'd have said it was futile, I didn't want it.  But later, I did.  Asking someone else whether they are going to want a r/s with you in the future seems unhelpful, because they simply don't know.

And that's with your ordinary bear.  Isn't it 10 times more true with someone with BPD?

This guy (my recent BPD ex) dated the younger woman in my office for a few months, a year before we started seeing each other.  Off-on.  (I learned this from mutual friends after he left me.)  He eventually ended it, told me only that she wanted him & he had had to maintain boundaries (!), and that was that.

If she'd asked him while we were seeing each other whether her continuing feelings of love for him were in vain, he'd have said yes -- or if he's hedged, he'd have been being an incredible cad, to her and to me.

But weeks after he & I decided not to try again, he was pursuing her avidly.

I guess my point is that there is no permanent answer to that question, the relationship is in process like Phoebe has commented, and no matter what he says, it may be different later.  Right?  We know this about BPD.  So why go through the drama of asking?

[Whatwasthat]

Dear P and C 

It's your old friend the 'stuck record' back again! Sorry!

If it's at all possible for you I would really recommend doing nothing at all right now. Making no decisions. Changing nothing. Letting the whole thing just 'be'.

And then focus on the trauma therapy and exercise and anything else that feels helpful.

I know myself that if I'm not feeling strong and centred then it's best not to make big decisions or to start changing things.

I suspect it feels as if the only route to feeling relaxed and happy lies in 'sorting this r/s out'. I would suggest - conversely - that the only way to 'sort this r/s out' is - for a while - to do other things that promote relaxation, strength and happiness. And then see how you feel.

This means that you don't have to choose between cutting him off and telling him you love him. Which should be a relief in itself!

This doesn't mean that I don't think that this whole experience with your ex/friend is the root cause of all the difficult, tangled stuff you're feeling now. Sadly he seems to be a one-man emotional avalanche. But I don't think that direct efforts to look for the answer to the damage he's caused in your current, ongoing relationship with him will yield very much.

Sending very warm  . WWT.

[123Phoebe]

Phoebe, you urge being true to yourself (thank you for that great theme!) but also seem to deal with your own disappointment in the r/s yourself, without voicing it, as "your stuff," not his problem.  Is that right?  If so, how does that map onto this situation?  That seems to counsel against the conversation I sketched out, doesn't it?

No, that is not right, I DO voice disappointment in the relationship.  I don't voice it in one full swoop though, as in, 'Your doing that, makes me do this!'.  No matter how nicely it's phrased. Blame blame blame.  It's more like, 'Ew, I feel weird about this', then giving him the space to modify while taking care of myself.

I made a lot of mountains out of molehills earlier on, a lot of black & white declarations.  And I got a lot of hurt lobbed my way, while trying to change who he is.

If I know he's going to react a certain way, why set myself AND him up for it?  Unless I am totally and completely ready to hear him, BELIEVE what he says, then act on this information, I'll let it go as far as declaring anything to him, because nothing is going to change if I keep doing the same old thing.  I can say all kinds of things, my behaviors will give me away every single time though.  And then he knows I'm full of it.  Full of fear of losing him with the extra added bonus of not accepting him, all the while unhappiness abounds!  For both of us.

I question your love for him.  Is it really love or is it obsession?

When he said, "We're on different planets", why didn't you ask 'in the moment', "What do you mean?"  Instead there has been all kinds of analysis about what you think he might've meant by that.  And if he straight up told you what he meant, would you believe it?  Or is there more interest in what you think he really means because of this that and the other... .?

Let's say that he is absolutely 100% an itinerant soul, a Dylanesque Man.  Can you accept that?  If you want stability, can you attach your future to an itinerant soul?  Or will you always be longing for more?

P&C, I used to long for more, too.  I longed for the white picket fence (had one growing up).  I longed for the love affair of the ages, where we're one against the world and can handle anything and everything with grace and dignity... .  I lived in fantasyland!  Life isn't that easy or lovely.  Real things, like mental illness, exist.  So do bills and disagreements and day to day mundane tasks.  I can't wish it away.  My love doesn't conquer all.  And I can't change another person.

I was in love with the idea of love!  The thoughts of love that swirled through my head, that even when lovely acts of kindness were bestowed upon me, I couldn't recognize them as 'love', because they didn't match the ideal fantasy version of what was going on in my head.

I can't help but think that what you're wanting to do right now is another version of the same old cycle.  How different is it than when your relationship originally ended?

I think I will say something that expresses that the push-pull is super hard on me and that if he wants in, he needs to understand that if he doesn't stay in, it makes it very hard for me to continue to be this open with and available to him.

And he's going to say, "We're on different planets.  You have a hidden agenda.  I told you we're just friends and blah blah blah".

And you're going to say/do?

The reason I asked this is because I'm curious if you know?  Without anybody else's input or analysis.  What are you going to say/do?

Because if you don't know, it's just more of the same and you're setting yourself up for more hurt and another cycle.

[KateCat]

Well, this isn't any oldies love song I've ever heard of!

Not Fleetwood Mac's "The Chain": "And if you don't love me now, you will never love me again. I can still hear you sayin' you would never break the chain."

Not Diana Ross's "Set Me Free": "Set me free, why don't you babe? Get outta my life, my don't you babe? You don't really want me, you just keep me hanging on."

Not even Janis Joplin's "Piece of my Heart," maybe: "Go on,  break it, break another little bit of my heart, now baby."

So I got nothing.

[patientandclear]

No, that is not right, I DO voice disappointment in the relationship.  I don't voice it in one full swoop though, as in, 'Your doing that, makes me do this!'.  No matter how nicely it's phrased. Blame blame blame.  It's more like, 'Ew, I feel weird about this', then giving him the space to modify while taking care of myself.

I made a lot of mountains out of molehills earlier on, a lot of black & white declarations.  And I got a lot of hurt lobbed my way, while trying to change who he is.

Thanks for this, this makes sense, & this what I am inclined to do, rather than make some big declaration of love.

If I know he's going to react a certain way, why set myself AND him up for it?

Exactly.

I question your love for him.  Is it really love or is it obsession?

Interesting.  And challenging. I do think it is love.  But the combination of push-pull (he tells me I'm so important, acts like this is so important, then drops away) and the fact that I've been reliably punished with silent treatment & withdrawal for trying to talk about our r/s, can create an obsessive dynamic.  I want out of that -- which is what this thread is about.  I want to love him as he is, accepting him, without hurting. It've managed the first two (love him as he is, acting as if I am accepting him) but I haven't managed the third part, doing that without hurt.  It hurts.  I want to change that.  I don't know how.

When he said, "We're on different planets", why didn't you ask 'in the moment', "What do you mean?"  Instead there has been all kinds of analysis about what you think he might've meant by that.  And if he straight up told you what he meant, would you believe it?  Or is there more interest in what you think he really means because of this that and the other... .?

There were other things said in that email (I wrote about it here) & I did ask questions about them.  I've considered writing since & asking what he meant by this particular piece, too.  No, I desperately want to know what he thinks about it all, it's just that he is incredibly, incredibly averse to communicating with me about it.  If I mention our past r/s at all, he either ignores the communication completely or answers in such a terse, clipped way it is clear he doesn't want to talk about it.

Let's say that he is absolutely 100% an itinerant soul, a Dylanesque Man.  Can you accept that?  If you want stability, can you attach your future to an itinerant soul?  Or will you always be longing for more?

I can accept him as an itinerant soul.  I've been married, I have a kid, I don't have a need for a white picket fence, I don't have any particular vision of our r/s.  And I've told him that.  I just want him to stay with me (emotionally) if he loves me.  That's the only kind of stability I am looking for.  And it doesn't need to mean constant communication or anything.  I just want us to be true, in some fashion, to the feelings between us, if they are real, which I think they are, which he acts like they are -- except when he doesn't.

I was in love with the idea of love!  The thoughts of love that swirled through my head, that even when lovely acts of kindness were bestowed upon me, I couldn't recognize them as 'love', because they didn't match the ideal fantasy version of what was going on in my head.

I don't think this is what I've got going on.  I've had more the opposite problem -- I've recognized all his little odd gestures as "love," and possibly even over-interpreted them as love.  I am not trying to make this be anything in particular.  The only thing is, I am probably still taking seriously his original declarations of love for me as some sort of deeper "truth" -- he "really" loves me -- in the face of conflicting actions now.  But you see, he gives me enough current material to work with to justify that.  He acts like he loves me, except when he doesn't.  And even then, I can see that that dynamic may be driven by caring too much, not too little.  Fear of loss, etc.  So I have a story in my head that he "really" loves me, based on our original r/s and what he told me when we were breaking up.  And then I have new material that continues to reinforce that that is probably true.  And then I have all of the leaving.

And the leaving just breaks my heart, over, and over, and over.  He finds new and creative ways to leave me all the time.  Sure, he comes back, but each time he goes, it feels like he takes a little bit of my heart with him.  (Just saw your post Kate Cat -- the Joplin fits pretty darn well!) It's not good.  Either I have to feel differently about it, or I have to change the dynamic somehow.  My impulse is to try to get him to not leave, but that isn't going to work, is it?

I suspect where this is going, after I take my friend WWT's advice about doing nothing for a little longer, is saying something very much like your "ew, this feels weird," Phoebe.  Not any big declarations or complaints.

I can't help but think that what you're wanting to do right now is another version of the same old cycle.  How different is it than when your relationship originally ended?

When our r/s originally ended, I was clear for him about my feelings, that I didn't want it to end, but when he was adamant that it couldn't work, I said I accepted it, because this is all voluntary, and if his feelings didn't match what he'd said, well, I couldn't hold onto what he said.  It was devastating and traumatizing, but not horribly confusing, at that point.

What happened after that is what has messed with and continues to mess with my mind so much.  He began to reveal that his words and actions of rejection were a facade, and underneath, he desperately still wanted us to be together, but he didn't know why he'd pushed me away.  I didn't, and don't, know what the right thing to do with that is.

And since then, when he's pushed me away, and I've reacted by saying "ok, I'm away then," he's reached out just as fervently to say "oh no, I didn't really want you to be AWAY."  So I can't just "accept" his distancing as his true position -- it isn't.

And when I ask what's going on, he goes silent.  Sometimes incredibly silent.  So when people recommend that I just "talk to him," my internal reaction is that that will be greeted with one of the most painful experiences of my life -- again.

I think I will say something that expresses that the push-pull is super hard on me and that if he wants in, he needs to understand that if he doesn't stay in, it makes it very hard for me to continue to be this open with and available to him.

And he's going to say, "We're on different planets.  You have a hidden agenda.  I told you we're just friends and blah blah blah".

And you're going to say/do?

The reason I asked this is because I'm curious if you know?  Without anybody else's input or analysis.  What are you going to say/do?

Because if you don't know, it's just more of the same and you're setting yourself up for more hurt and another cycle.

I don't want to set myself up again for that cycle.  You are exactly right.  I already know that story.

I think the confusion you all see in this thread is that, because where we are feels rotten, I'm trying to make changes, and I'm straddling the choice between (A) being brave and trying to make this r/s more -- let it be what it can be -- by being more open and risking more, not getting all defended in the face of his push behavior, working on further acceptance of who & how he is, trying to eliminate my hurt reactions to that somehow ... .and (B) guarding against additional hurt and additional push-pull damage by shutting down, withdrawing, and not letting him in so much any more.  Not going with him the next time he pulls. Not finding it meaningful that he pulls.  Letting go of the idea that he "really" loves me.  Even though I bet if there were some objective truth meter available, the objective truth is that he does really love me.  But the continuous withdrawal of that love is just a killer.

And because I cannot decide between course A & course B, because the first is a risk (and I haven't achieved that level of acceptance) and the second is a waste, I get stuck in the middle, doing neither.

[123Phoebe]

Hi P&C,

If he has BPD or some sort of attachment disorder, he is not capable of being emotionally present all of the time.  He cannot 'stay' there.  And when I got super honest with myself, I'm not always 'there' either.  It's not the end of the world or even that big of a deal unless I want to make it one.

Acceptance lets us get on with it already  It stops the ruminating and what if thoughts... .

Your relationship is different because you live so far apart, there's a lot of space to fill with wonder... . There's also enough distance to accept that it is what it is.

How about rather than feeling this need to talk about what is going on between you (answers for the past, present and future), you feel what it is going on inside yourself and act accordingly.  

Because you care, you want to be authentic.  Not in any big dramatic fashion, all or nothing.  Nuanced, interested and interesting.  Be who you really are... . 


 

[Seashells]

Dear P&C,

I've been so busy right now, I haven't been able to properly respond to the thread I'd started, nor Connect's either to the degree I'd like, and will hopefully be able to do so in the next week or so.

I've been reading short bits though and it's easy to see how this tears at you and I'm so sorry you're going through it.  And wanted to respond quickly for now.

One recurring theme I noticed previously in my own r/s situation,which I've stopped was this: I was projecting into the future possibilities and "living off them" so to speak, instead of looking at TODAY.  Where it stands Today, what the reality of the situation is TODAY, etc. and going from there.   I have to remind myself to live in TODAY.  Not yesterday, not longing for tomorrow, etc.  Not living "what if's".   

Accepting the relationship is exactly as it exists today and respond accordingly.  Knowing this is all it ever may be.   This doesn't mean just leaving it up to him.  This means how practical is it if he's 1500 miles away and has NO plans to return at this point?  This means recognizing it for what he says at FACE value, along with his ACTIONS. 

It's practical to remain friends, if he can be a friend to you as well.  If he feels distance and tries to pull you back in so he's comfortable?  You can respond by saying something like, 'I love our friendship and it means the world to me.  I also realize you're 1500 miles away with no plans to return, you want to remain friends and are uncomfortable discussing or considering anything else from our relationship beyond this level of friendship.  I'm happy to do so and remain friends.  I also have to focus on my own life and my own happiness and future; I need to keep it in perspective for my own sake.  I have to recognize it for what it is and be there when I can while I get on with my own life as well.'  (boundaries)

The other thing (and I wanted to say this to Connect as well about other women, but can apply it to this in a more broad sense) is to accept radically these are things we cannot control and stop allowing them to create anxiety in our minds because of the FEAR of getting hurt again.

I don't want to be hurt, nor do you, nor does Connect, nor does anyone of us who walks this earth.  We accept we're in relationships with someone who is emotionally disordered.   This means in itself we're exposing ourselves to the possibilities of being hurt by their behaviors more than we might with someone who may not be disordered.  We need to evaluate it and get out if we don't want to accept it.   

We can't control what they do.  Not if we're within 10 miles or 1500 miles.   If they choose to be with someone else, they're going to be with someone else.  There are times when I've been away my bf has gone to a bar where there are plenty of single women.  I've accepted I'm 1500 miles away and if he's going to get involved elsewhere and damage the relationship, no amount of me getting upset or interrogating him is going to change it.  If it happens, I will deal with it.  It will hurt, and HE will not be in a relationship with me if he chooses to do it.  We think we can avoid pain by being hyper vigilant to these things and it's a panacea of sorts, as if it's going to prevent them, but it's an illusion. 

We aren't going to stop that behavior, nor ANY OTHER, by questioning them repeatedly in detail because we're driven by the fear of the unknown, by becoming anxious about it, by putting our own lives on hold or by avoiding going out with friends, or doing our own interests.  In fact many of those behaviors in trying to avoid what we FEAR they are doing to cause us pain, actually causes them to react poorly to us, and we make ourselves miserable.   

I think we have to ACCEPT if we choose to be involved with them, it's quite possible we will have to deal with hurt and get through the pain of it and have faith in ourselves that we will be able to do so.  (easy to say)

OUR OWN FEARS are what drive us to these places.  When we accept that we are powerless over their choices and can only do what is best for ourselves and accept the outcomes as they unfold, I think we reach the point where we can enjoy them for who they are and what they can give us TODAY.   And only we can decide if it's enough for us or not.  Only we can decide if we are willing to accept that risk because they do have BPD.

I hope this makes sense.  I care about my bf, and he knows it. 

One thing I stuck with and have continued, was to let go each time he bounced back being undecided with his ex.  I did not chase him.  I in fact refused to remain in contact with him more than once.

He knows I will not chase him even now.  He knows, although he's made plenty of messes, he has to meet me half way at a minimum or I will not remain in the relationship with him.  I may struggle with handling the behaviors and with the lessons.  Yet, this is completely separate from the fact he does know I'm willing to let the relationship go if it becomes too painful or if he crosses certain lines.

As much as I may (try to) understand his disorder, I can still stand separately and see the behavior for what it is at times without making excuses and call it what it is, and say to myself, "hell no".  It's manipulative at times, it's immature at times... .it's... .etc.   I refuse to accept some of them, whether I understand why he does it or not, and I will not thereby allow and accept any and all behaviors that hurt me just to maintain the relationship. 

P&C, this isn't a criticism  .  I admire your insight.  Your words have opened my mind more than once.  Yet at times I wonder if you're being so understanding of BPD that it almost seems you're trying to rationalize why the behavior is "okay", and think you can "understand" away the pain it causes you as well.   You can't.  It still hurts, it doesn't always matter "why" he does it.  It still is what it is.  And we have to honor ourselves too.  You know?  This doesn't mean you can't stay in touch with him at all, at least for TODAY if you can accept it for what it is and respond accordingly.  If you can keep in mind what the relationship is and isn't in your "rational wise mind".  You focus on where it is, and what it is TODAY. 

Look at it this way. Extreme example, but it's an analogy.   If a person w/ BPD punches you in the face because they have uncontrolled anger, is it okay?  You can understand why all you want to, but it doesn't make it okay.  You can't allow them to punch you in the face just because you know why they do it.

Just because we understand why they act the way they do doesn't MEAN IT ISN"T rude, manipulating, cold, hurtful, callous or uncaring of them to do it at the moment.  I think we do ourselves an injustice when we don't recognize it for what it is, even if we have an understanding of why.  I may not hate my bf for his behavior because I understand he has a disorder, but it doesn't mean I'll accept it and remain if he continues doing certain things.  They hurt too much.

The emotional "punches" are the same as the physical ones.  Figuring out what we can do to avoid triggering, knowing what we know and using the "tools" etc, and to what degree we're willing to do so is the tricky part. 

Sometimes I think you're not wanting to see the behaviors for what they are in order to avoid the pain of the consequences in saying "no" to them.   And I don't mean "verbalizing" NO to your friend.  I mean saying within yourself "no" and acting accordingly because your behavior naturally adjusts via your attitude, which isn't necessarily deliberate but a natural extension of you taking care of yourself.  And seeing things for what they are TODAY. 

Also, another tough question.  P&C why do you think you're different than any other woman before you?  Are you counting on your understanding of BPD as a "special exception"? (I ask because I had to ask myself these things)

Are you counting on him realizing if you're understanding enough and hang in enough and take enough of his behavior, it will be enough to motivate make him want a romantic relationship?  If so, is that realistic given what you know about not only BPD, but human interactions with ex relationship partners in general?

I'm rambling a bit here, but hope this makes sense.  Catch up with you all soon.

shellsSea 

[123Phoebe]

Seashells... .

Wow!  You got it goin' on and are a beautiful writer

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