BPDFamily.com

How do we become more empathetic to the pwBPD in our life?

Empathy is one of the main components of emotional intelligence.   Empathy is often confused with sympathy - but empathy it is distinctly different.  Empathy is the experience of understanding another person's condition from their perspective. You effectively place yourself in their shoes and feel what they are feeling. Seeing things from another person's perspective isn't simply understanding their point of view -- it extends to understanding, without disclaimers, why they feel their point of view is just and appropriate and honest.  Empathic people are skilled in placing themselves inside the shoes of others and seeing the world through another person’s perspective.
 
The problem most of us face with empathy isn’t the failure of understanding the importance of empathy  - it is a lack of knowing how - and a lack of discipline to see it through when it matters most.
 
The purpose of this workshop is to discuss the lessons we have all learned on our journey to be more empathetic with our family members and what we have found that works and what does not work.
 
To get us started, I'v listed some things we often need to do to effectively place ourselves inside the shoes of another and see the world through their perspective.
 

• Set Aside Personal Beliefs, Concerns and Agenda - Just for now, at least. Go into the conversation empty handed—with no personal expectations or goal of fixing anyone.  Be willing to have your mind and perspective changed. Your only agenda is listening and trying to understand the other’s point of view.

• Remove Ourselves / Gain Perspective - When you take things personally, you cannot separate yourself enough to feel the other person’s pain. Detach enough so that you are not in a emotionally heightened state— do not allowing the other person’s behavior to upset you or trigger you.

• Be Present/ Be an Active Listener - Listen to the person in the moment, truly utilizing the skills of actively listening.  :)on't jump ahead, re-frame what they are saying and compare it to a personal experience you had, don't rush to project ahead, or to frame a response.  When we do this we completely lose sight of the reason of our conversation in the first place, sharing information as a means to build, maintain and sustain the relationship.

• Getting Beyond the Facts / Relate - When the other person begins to share, focus on their feelings.  Think of situations that you’ve experienced in the past that are similar.  Just think about this - connect with it - don't share it.  This will deepen your emotional insight into the other person’s plight.

• Talk to the Person's Inner-Child - When we visualize our pwBPD as their vulnerable inner-child we can lower and lessen our defenses, which will then allow us to want to preserve the relationship and communicate in an effective way.

• See Empathy as a Lifestyle, Not an Event -  Make an effort to heal the past hurts, to remember to accentuate the positive, and to nurture the relationship on a daily basis.  Most importantly, be mindful that when we are angry we can do a lot of damage and set things way back.

We look forward to everyone's comments.  Please remember, this is a workshop - we are here to discuss concepts - not personal matters- please limit personal comments to examples to clarify your points.

Please see video: Listen with Empathy - A Powerful Life Skill (https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy)

I've had to learn how to be empathetic toward myself, before being able to truly empathize with anyone else.  Denying my own feelings in lieu of FOG short circuited this ability.

Getting out of the mindset that people are doing things to me, i.e., taking things personally (fiercely attaching), has helped tremendously.  Instead of building bridges, this creates gaps.  All of a sudden there's an agenda and that is to get them to STOP doing these things!  To deny them the very right to have feelings of their own.  Blah.

Standing separately with an open heart and mind allows space for things to simply 'be'.  This 'be'ing space/state is the actual connection, and I am learning to respond to it, with no rush or flurry to fix for my immediate relief and faux comfort.  I do not expect to get it right every time and that's okay.  As long as I'm aware, I can always get back on track.

Knowing that it sometimes takes (me) a while to work through a feeling, to really process it... .Why would I think it would be any different for anyone else?

If someone is sharing a part of themselves with me, don't I owe them the right to their own perspective?  And to at least try to understand it?  Even if it makes me uncomfortable?

Digging into my own uncomfortable feelings, uncovering why they exist in the first place and empathizing with myself (my inner child), has given me a window of opportunity to step into someone else's shoes and experience... .

To be able to really connect by empathizing

As understanding creates intellectual closeness, I believe that empathy is a gateway to emotional closeness.

For some reason, we are born with the desire to be known AND accepted by others. If that happens on the intellectual level, great. If that happens on an emotional level, it is deeply satisfying.

PwBPD often feels alone (not connected), misunderstood (intellectual disconnect), and invalidated (emotional disconnect). Furthermore - they fear intimacy, because they fear that if we really knew them, we would abandon them.

What better gift can we give them (or anyone else for that matter), than to empathize - connect on the emotional level in an accepting manner?

However it is such a difficult task, because we ourselves have to have the extra capacity to leave ourselves behind and to focus on the other person... .That doesn't happen if our capacity is taxed by conflict, troubles, stressed, unhealthiness.

What you are saying is that empathy is only as healthy as the mind providing it. So get yourself healthy first.

I like this. I don't think I deny my own feelings as much as ignore them... .and I suspect that pattern goes back through most of my life.

I don't see myself as someone with a huge store of empathy for others.


Hmm... .I think I've done this one a bunch of times, often not noticing how I'm switching the focus back to myself.

Thanks for giving me stuff to think about folks!

Or at least be able to recognize the unhealthiness of my own perspective/experience at times.  When my mind starts going to thoughts that have nothing to do with the situation at hand.



These 2 points go hand in hand.

Thinking of similar experiences/feelings from my own past (while saying nothing), INSTEAD of how this shared information is going to affect me or is affecting me right now (and reacting to it).  It's such a selfish staNPDoint, the complete opposite of 'relating', when I'm latching onto someone else's plight with ways to 'fix' them through my own discomfort.  Or expecting them to feel the same way as I do in that moment, when the moment isn't even about me, other than I am there.  In a way, demanding empathy and understanding from the very person who could use a little.

I think one of the biggest hurdles is the endless nature of it. The feeling that I am burying my own reality in order to keep the peace wit my wife.

First of all to be successful you have to actually mean it. You need to be genuinely interested in their world. To act empathy only sets you up for a fall when you can't maintain the act and it just become patronizing.

Being empathetic to a Disordered partner is a lot different to the average person, an acquaintance, or even other members on this site. As it can be all day and everyday in some cases, in all areas from small issues to large issues. Even with best intentions you can stop listening and run dry. A facade of empathy will not last long at all, and you will become inconsistant

This often means before you can be successful at this you need to have worked on yourself first, feel good in yourself, know your own truth so that you dont feel it is being buried. Not be afraid to clearly state you are not up to discussing something if you are not.

This ties in with a subject I have been thinking about recently, and that is respect. Do you really respect your partner? Respect cant be bought by words or gifts. It is earned by moral standards and a willingness to put yourself out for others without personal gain. Both of these virtues are often missing for pwBPD.

If you don't have that deep respect, it becomes difficult to maintain the desire to be genuinely empathetic in a continuous way. Maintaining empathy for someone you respect is a lot easier than feeling empathy for someone you feel like you are just doing your duty of caring for, let alone if you are simply doing it keep the peace.

So if you can learn to respect your partner, and you will have to deal with your own baggage and acceptance skills first, then you will be in a far better place to provide genuine and effective empathy.

Empathy is not about you, even if they are talking about you. It is about their feelings. Do not try to bandwaggon on their issues with a whole lot of "me too" then hijacking the discussion onto your experiences in a misguided attempt to make them not feel alone.  The empathy then just becomes an intro link to you stealing center stage. Very invalidating.

I think a big part of this becomes easier when I've fought to set aside my ego. I am no better than anyone else, we all have our individual challenges.


Letting go of fixing things and our expectations can sometimes be a challenge but it's doable.


Bpd or not, this point has been a growth area. It's difficult not to take things personally when someone is talking to you and is upset, or when you expect their past behavior escalating. Expectations play a role here too in being able to detach I believe.


Practicing active listening has been really good for my relationships. It's actually easier to form a response after you hear what is said in mho. It has had a calming effect for me, to not expect the worst. Half the time in the past I geared up to defend myself instead of just hearing someone out first. That made it difficult to formulate any questions to better my understanding of the goal of the conversation in the first place.


Ugh, this has been one of my downfalls. Sharing my experiences to relate. I know I do this, I also know that ends up seeming I'm making a conversation about me. Not my intent though it's a hard habit to break. 


I use this technique often and it is very helpful. In fact, it has been one of the most effective ways to deepen my empathy.


I make it a practice to try to approach someone quickly that I may have hurt. My hopes are that this shows the relationship is meaningful to me and that I do think of them. That I give someone else's thoughts thought.

It is interesting that the architects of the DSM 5 recommended that a personality disorder be diagnosed when a person has diminished skills in two of the following -- either "empathy or intimacy" and either "identity or self direction".
 
The words they use to rate impaired empathy are telling (each one is part of  rating):
 

• See others as controling

• Excessively self-referential

• Unawareness of effect of own behavior on others

• Unable to consider alternative perspectives

• Threatened by differences of opinion

• Bewildered about peoples’ thoughts

• Destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others

It might be eye opening to see how family members score you (and each other) using this scale.
 
Skip
 

---

DSM 5 Empathy Assessment Levels
 
Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing. Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.
 
Mild impairment (1) Somewhat compromised in ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences; may tend to see others as having unreasonable expectations or a wish for control. Although capable of considering and understanding different perspectives, resists doing so. Inconsistent is awareness of effect of own behavior on others.
 
Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.
 
Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering. Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.
 
Extreme Impairment (4) Pronounced inability to consider and understand others’ experience and motivation. Attention to others' perspectives virtually absent (attention is hypervigilant, focused on need-fulfillment and harm avoidance). Social interactions can be confusing and disorienting.

It's a matter of desire and practice, I think.  You have to be at a place where you sincerely want to improve a relationship with someone you love, but who has caused you real pain and heartache in the past.  

It's especially hard to be empathetic when you are still processing the problems of the past, or working through your own strong feelings of anger, resentment or other emotional pain. But working through these feelings is worth the effort, both for the relationship and for yourself.

For me, it's hard to feel a lot of empathy for my wife when I feel things aren't fair to me somehow.  My natural inclination isn't to "put myself in their shoes," its to think "here we go again."  But, that's really just me choosing to focus on myself at that moment.    

   

I am wondering if it is easier to feel empathy for BPD child? Do you think when that child grows into an adult we have less ability to feel empathy?

That's the innocence factor,  which is why an immature adult is rarely treated as immature in anything other than a derogatory way.

Empathy is basically "listening and hearing" skill.

In reading on this site for a few years, there is are two discussions that reoccur quite frequently regarding empathy.

The first one goes like this "the pwBPD in my life has no empathy - how can they be like that with someone they supposedly love". Sometimes it's a bit more colorful with words like selfish, evil, psychopath, vampire, etc.  

The second one is "Should we be empathetic? I'm the one that needs the empathy! Why should I... .".

If being empathic is a primary measure of emotional intelligence and lack of empathy is one of the 4 criteria proposed by the DSM architects to be used as a screen for personality disorders, what does this say about us?  I'm not asking this rhetorically or suggesting that there is a universal answer - I don't think there is.  I'm am suggesting that this might be a good question to ask ourselves.

Scotty Peck does a good job of conveying the feelings that could motivate us to be empathetic... .

(https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/images/empathy_video.jpg) (https://bpdfamily.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-importance-of-empathy-skills-when.html)

   Click on arrowhead to play

My defense system gets so easily triggered, most especially by dxBPD daughter (27), when she is in distress and projecting extremely intense blame onto me. I find myself talking over her - I do not even want to hear what she has to say or deal with it.

She has been writing me letters. First read - lots of anger and denial on my part. If I go back, imagine I am sitting with her, feeling what she is feeling, seeing what she is seeing, hearing what she is hearing... .really let go of my self and sit inside her skin, then I can go back and read the heart of the letter and not the words. Only then can I find a response puts her needs in the center. Only then can I think of validating questions that might help her form a solution, and how SHE perceives I can support her in her solution.

Now I can talk on the phone, I have this letter as a kind of script in my head, and there is love between us. The problems are still present - they belong to her now.

This feels like an example of following a path toward empathy. I needed the physical space from her before I could approach this inside myself.

qcr

Letting go of our own self-centeredness is a prerequisite to being open to true empathy

Empathy is a good subject for a Workshop; that video above with Scott Peck is really good (I watched it three times). He says (if I transcribed correctly):

"Empathy means that you actually stop thinking about yourself, stop making judgments and conclusions, and start listening to the other person so you are in his or her own world."

When my non-Son34 & his uBPDWife are talking or even yelling about something that doesn't involve me, I can do this easily. I'm really good at it (many of us are, I would guess).

But, one thing that I tend to do--if the complaints or hurts he has are related to something I've done or do all the time--is hear their story and see my faults and failings through their eyes. I can feel horrible about myself and withdraw; it's easy for me to "lose myself" in it and think that maybe I don't know my own motives and "goodness" anymore. It truly knocks me for a loop, and I become a wide-eyed listener, tallying up my faults as he and she see them.

Sometimes, in a really traumatic event of his & her rage or pain, I remember every slight or human failing related to me, and get depressed, thinking I'm terrible. Because (in hindsight) the rage has come like a bolt of lightning out of the blue, I'm off-guard and for some reason very willing to absorb the blame for almost anything, real or imagined. I've done this over and over with every BPD in my life since I was young, and I'm wondering if the video means I should even take my own self out of a situation like that when I'm listening to them... .

Just listen to them, be in their shoes, see myself and my actions as they see me and my actions, and not let it touch me personally? Not get caught up in it and hate myself for causing so much apparent pain (even when it doesn't even actually make any sense)? I'm aware of refusing to J.A.D.E. (Justify, Argue, Defend & Explain) during such an event, but that doesn't seem to be my problem as a rule... .Getting depressed and feeling like a "bad" person tends to be my reaction at first; it usually isn't till later that I can look at the situation clearly and realize that I might not be perfect, but I'm not the monster they think I am.

I'm sure that empathy doesn't mean that I have to agree that I'm the worst person in the world, when that actually isn't true... .I suppose if I could separate myself from the situation and think "S.E.T" when responding during one of those rages directed at me, I could avoid the depression and self-recrimination. It's tricky... .

I think once you have achieved a high degree of Acceptance, and by that I don't mean of them but of your own shortfalls and accepting that you are not perfect and ok with that, then is easier to let go of your defensiveness and listen.

What's hard is that, knowing already that I am a flawed human being capable of mistakes, I tend to absorb the charges--however skewed by the BPD perception of the rager--and feel like I've committed the sins assigned to me. I do that even while totally confused and knocked for a loop because none of the accusations even make sense. It might be defensiveness, but it feels more like internalizing or feeling guilty as charged, no matter how weird the charges may be. It's always later, after having the chance to think clearly about it all, that I can see that I needed to not do that.

It's actually been a while since an event like that has happened; now that I've been on this site longer and have read so much and learned so much, I'm hoping if (when?) there is a next time, I'll be able to listen empathetically while not taking it all personally. And emerge without the guilt and resulting depression afterwards... .So far, using the communication tools and other techniques I've learned here, I've avoided the rages directed at me. It's a lot easier to deal with those that are not directed at me personally; no resulting guilt to tie myself up in knots about.

How do we protect ourselves in the face of our grown child's rage projecting all their pain and distress onto us? While at the same time they are desperately reaching out for us to rescue them from this very pain and distress. Guilt and depression hit us unless we can shield self from this assault.

I just realized this is the partner board:undecided. Well my BPDDD27 is in many ways a 'partner', and I am searching my soul with the question of choosing my path - as in the sidebar.


As a parent, there is a deeper biological layer to this acceptance. A big part of being the parent is guiding, modeling, teaching... . When our child is so distressed it is so easy to take it on ourselves from a very deep, unconscious place. Finding a path of awareness - what is mine and what is my child's - has to come before the work of acceptance can really take hold. And it is one of those life processes that never really 'gets there'.

It is so important to build support around me for those times when I cannot care for my self - where I can reach out for reassurance that I am OK. It is so easy to become isolated. I also have to accept that I will need others support, I cannot do this on  my own. I need others to be empathetic/validating to meet my needs too. And I cannot look to my pwBPD to be involved in this. My support network is there to help me with this.

Choosing a Path -- this is a powerful step to becoming a person with the capacity to be empathetic in the face of a raging, blaming pwBPD that I love.

qcr

The topic is about becoming more empathetic - listening more, listening without an agenda, or fear, or preoccupation.  But like all the tools, its not an overnight thing, a 100% thing, and it's never about enabling.

The challenge, of course, is defining that line.

When your son/daughter is dysregulated, when anyone is dysregulated, the line is clear, there is no communication.  The best thing to do is to step away as benignly as possible and let the pwBPD resolve.  And above all, don't take anything said personally.  One of the most fundamental things we teach here is how important it is not to take dysregulation personally.  We know that when a person with BPD feels pain, they can attack others close to them to project the pain.  

When your son/daughter is talking about things not related to you, the line is clear here too.  As you say, you already do well in these situations.  This is the best place to start building your empathy skills.

When your son/daughter is calm and collected and says things that are derogatory about you, that is the harder call.  Sometimes this is where opening up and listening can be painful... .but ,in time, beneficial.  Sometimes its not constructive at all.  You have to make that call - mutually if you can.

• Often negative feelings may have hardened and taken a life of their own over the years because no one was listening and that is going to take some time to work through.  If your son says you beat him (and you didn't), maybe he has been exaggerating the real pain (because he didn't feel heard) which is that he was humiliated by some of you punishments as a child that has never been resolved.  Listening may help get to the bottom of this over time. It may open up enough to make peace and to even share your own hurt.

• Sometimes the pwBPD in our life is just angry and there is no direction to it... .or their anger / resentment toward us has gone to an extremely elevated state and its not going to resolve.  Maybe you just agree to compartmentalize some topics for the time being and be an empathic listener for others.

• Sometimes its impulsive and best to let the other person self-sooth and not involve you.

Good mental health is hard and it takes a great deal of strength.  That is true for all the tools.

There is a lot of hurt in a bpdfamily.

I appreciate this workshop.  I believe practicing empathy requires compassion and imagination.  I agree with others who stated empathy is best practiced when we are emotionally healthy or in a positive space.  For me, without such a foundation, it is very difficult to experience empathy, as I am too involved in my own emotional turmoil. 

Active listening helps with empathy, which may involve asking validating questions to better understand the individual at hand.

But how can we really know what someone else is feeling?  I don't think we can, but we can sometimes get very close.  This is where imagination can help.  I also feel that some people have a stronger innate sense for what others might be feeling/experiencing.  Or possibly this sense was partially learned in an environment that called for empathy when the person was young.  Compassion ties in to this for me.

It helps me to understand that all humans undergo suffering, thus we are all equal on that playing field and so can understand each other on those terms.

I think the #1 inhibitor to having empathy is a history of painful experiences with a person... .not just a pwBPD.  When we carry around the pain with us and accompany the pain with unresolved problems it can  certainly block our ability to empathize.  Being mindful (in the moment) that this situation can be different than times before can open us up to communication and the opportunity to be empathetic.   When  we see the emotions underneath the behaviors and not focus on the behaviors themselves then we are one step closer to empathizing.  It may be difficult to focus and stay in the moment and we can refocus as many times as it takes during a conversation.  


Not personalizing!  That can be a big job when you are the target of rage by your child.  A general rule that helps me is to remind myself that my daughter is hurting and needs me to hear her pain regardless of the words she uses or who it is directed at.  


Reminding myself of the goal before the conversation/event gets too far "My goal is for her to know she has been heard and understood"... .the same internal conversation I had with myself when learning how to be validating.


Relating to experiences that are unfamiliar to us can be difficult.  I use the phrase inside my head "imagine if you felt this way".


I've never tried this technique... .I imagine it would be highly effective. :)


So... .I have come back full circle to the first point... .painful history... .let it go and leave it in the past for a chance at a better future.  Replacing the pain, anger, and fear with empathy was a life changing process for my family.

When those difficult moments come... .I am able to respond with validation,  nonjudgment, compassion... .empathy.

It is one thing to be genuinely empathetic and validating of our BPDs, and I most certainly have done so with my BPDw and with everyone in my life as long as I have lived. What I am finding is resistance due to my BPDw's desire not to be close. She stays away, involves herself with this and that, and will be verbally abusive. So, the questions I wish to pose are the following: how do we do remain being empathetic to and validating of the BPD who continuously wishes to be away from empathy and validating? How do we remain when they stay away? How do we remain when there is obvious verbal abuse? You may say not to take it personally. Yet, when is it time to leave when there is resistance?

Samuel,

I imagine this is a different answer for each of us. Logic and emotional tuning goes only but so far in this relationship complexity. Intuition has got to kick in to make major decisions regarding the relationship.

For me as selfish as this sounds, I chose to leave the relationship when I was losing more than gaining... .this was something only I could barely grasp (value of my relationship) though and made no sense to others.

That said, "leaving" is not black and white.

I don't think I can be truly empathetic before I am consistently selfish.

(https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/images/mb/whyshould.gif)

... .the other person is not being empathetic to me? ... .the other person is devaluing me? ... .I'm the one that needs the empathy? ... .I tried - waste of time.

Fair question.   :)

If we realize that being a good listener (empathetic listener) is more than we want to contribute to the relationship, or if we need the other person to do it first, or we have been doing it for a long time and it's not helping, then that's helpful information in itself.

At the same time, it takes a while for the tools to have an effect on the relationship -- there is a deprogramming process if you will -- and sometimes we are not as competent at a skill and we might think -- and that is why we workshop a topic like this.

I am happy to report that this is working. Now. In real time for me! I had the opportunity to put these rules in place on Saturday night, during a (what could have been a very contentious) phone call with my non-Son34 & his uBPDWife. And then again today, when I was able to reach out to my uDIL in the correct way, with the result being a rational, friendly email back.

As mentioned up-thread, I've had a hard time communicating with them when the issues being discussed are my supposed "betrayals" or slights against them. I've always retreated from the discussion after absorbing their complaints and feeling guilty for my misdeeds. When my Son34 (on speakerphone with DIL in background) called me Saturday night about plans to visit with them next weekend, the conversation digressed (yet again) to the issues they need to "hash out" with me--going back years and most recently, months. I have always reacted in fear and frustration over that; I don't like to dwell on anyone's dealings with me that might have hurt me in the past, once I've forgiven them, and actually resent others holding my past over me.

Saturday night I remembered this Workshop, and detached enough from my feelings, and I listened. Really listened to their complaints. I validated their feelings, used S.E.T. to gently let them know the situations that hurt them from my own vantage point, and continued to validate. For almost an hour. With a visit coming up with them this coming weekend, I knew I had to contact my DIL somehow first; all of the actual hurt feelings are hers. I listened so well on that phone call, that I heard my Son say many times in many different ways, that it is his Wife with the anger, pain and hurt feelings. Obviously; I should have always realized that. He is not BPD; he is trying with all of his good heart to help his wife find peace and happiness in her pain.

Last night I had the epiphany... .I had to take my own self and feelings and truth out of this situation, and contact my DIL as I would a poster on this site. I needed to validate her feelings, support her in her pain, and offer myself as a sounding board. So, this morning I emailed her, using my intense listening revelations of that phone call to realize what her inner child has been crying for. I looked at her complaints about me as I would a poster on this site; the "Mother-In-Law" in the equation wasn't me, but some source of angst for her that I needed to understand and offer comfort for.

I actually never mentioned any of the complaints in this morning's email, I just used them as a basis for my compassion. And, in the end, my realization in all of this drama is that she is mostly lonely, overwhelmed with a new baby, and feeling abandoned by my son who has to work 70 hours per week, and by me, as family who lives too far away to help her out. As a former stay-at-home-mom myself, I commiserated with how she was feeling, offered myself as part of her continuous support system (we both have avoided phone calls and emails in the past due to this pain she's attached to me for so long), and then even suggested that we put aside some time this weekend for her to tell me how she feels about the issues she has with me.

I promised to listen to her, understand her feelings, and suggested we get past this and have a better relationship from now on. Prior to this email this morning, I would never actually willingly offer to make a specific time to actually talk about her complaints about me (I find them skewed and unreasonable), and I like to avoid confrontation at all costs. But, because of this Workshop, I realized that this will need to be the way I deal with her forever; I can't hide from her and just hope her behaviors will go away someday, so I will have to face her and risk this coming conversation.

And you know what? I expected either no email back from her, or maybe something that would lash out and list every single supposed slight from the last 10 years (this is a recurring thing). And I was OK with that; I planned on detaching from it, and using the same techniques I used in the phone call and email, and I knew I would live through it. Well, she emailed back:

"Thank you for reaching out to me... .[insert several lines of chit chat here]

I agree it would be great to chat and clear the air a bit... .Let's try to find a moment this weekend.

Have a great week, and drive safely on Saturday!

Love, DIL"  

And I will be able to have that chat, now, and I will be empathetic in a way I never could before. I see her as a person in pain who needs my compassion, understanding, love and support--not someone who is attacking me for crazy reasons that make me feel guilty and horrible. I see her as someone I could reply to and listen to on this site. I truly never thought I could do that before. I am amazed... .

Rapt Reader - thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing this expereince. It is so helpful for me today,.

qcr

I have thought about how empathy fits in with the other tools.

1. How empathy can help with other tools:

Others mentioned dysregulation and rages - in these occasions we may have to disengage and take a time-out.

However, using empathy in this case helps us understand what is going on with that person, and we have a better chance of disengaging with compassion.

I am not sure if this qualifies as speaking to their inner-child - but for me personally it helps if I imagine the pwBPD as a toddler in distress (angry, sad, or scared - and screaming their head off). It then allows me to go into a different mode - focusing on what approach will be helpful and effective.

2. How other tools can help us be more empathetic:

When I learned more about the disorder, and the ways of BPD thinking, it helped me understand better what is going on.

That in turn helps with tunning-in to the person, listening to their experience with detachment, rather than focusing on their actual words of accusation (which may be inaccurate, or a manifestation of another issue that they are dealing with). I can look at their world and focus on what's going on with them - their experience. It has nothing to do with me (for the moment). It frees me to be more empathetic.

#2 is really helpful for me. Esp. the part I can look at their world and focus on what's going on with them - their experience. It has nothing to do with me (for the moment).   When I am attuned in this way it does free me from sinking into a distressed place myself. It really is not all about me.

qcr

If you don't have that deep respect, it becomes difficult to maintain the desire to be genuinely empathetic in a continuous way. Maintaining empathy for someone you respect is a lot easier than feeling empathy for someone you feel like you are just doing your duty of caring for, let alone if you are simply doing it keep the peace.

So True, Waverider!  Perhaps a workshop on respect would be in order.  This is where I have really been struggling and you hit the nail on the head.  Without respect it is so very hard to be truly empathetic, things become personal and the cycle begins all over again. 

I do find that when I work on finding ways to give respect (remember good things he has done) it is easier for me to listen with empathy.  When I am feeling disrespectful (ie you did this to me!) I would rather not put myself in his shoes. 

I think the hardest part for me is to remove myself and gain perspective.  This is really difficult when the person is verbally attacking, but saying it in a very calm, pleasant way.  They are "helping" you see your faults and blind spots.  I'm OK with someone pointing out a blind spot if it is true, but when it is a projection and it happens over and over it gets really hard.  So for me this is where I need to concentrate my efforts- Don't take it personally! 

This tip does work. It left me feeling resentful afterwards though. I thought "but he's not a child-he needs to just grow up". I felt resentful too because I wasn't getting that same empathy in return. So yes, this tip works but it only worked for me in the short-term. Over the long-term, I just had to get out of the relationship and consciously choose to be around empathetic people.

I think all these tips work but they come at a huge personal cost to me I felt that I was sacrificing my needs for someone else's needs. If someone treats me well, then I don't have a problem showing them empathy but if someone treats me badly, then I naturally feel angry and want to stand up for myself.

I agree about standing up for yourself when treated badly, however I think that even people who treat us badly can receive our empathy, while we protect ourselves. I think that huge personal cost comes up when we "give" something for reasons other than generosity. If you speak to their inner child simply because you wish to help their wounded inner child, you won't feel resentful later. If you are doing it out of the expectation of a kind response, you will feel betrayed when that doesn't come.

Grey Kitty- I think that we have completely different perspectives on this issue so lets agree to disagree on this one.

Actually I don't have to bother myself with this issue at all. I am on the "leaving" board and am strict NO COMMUNICATION. I have released that person into Gods hands. I let GOD show empathy or validation or whatever... .

If I had a child or parent with this disorder that would be different... .but I don't. I think I will practice a little self empathy and validation and stay the course of minding my own side of the street.

I agree with you however I've still gotten a lot from this thread. Waverider had a good point earlier that respect is important in relationships- that it can only be earned by the person's deeds. I didn't respect my BPD ex. He was older than me so I felt that he should be emotionally mature.

There were times when I related to his inner child and it was nice but then I'd remind myself that he wasn't a child. And that was painful. He could only be vulnerable in that inner child state and then he'd just return to being competitive. I felt this strong undercurrent of competitiveness throughout the relationship. I felt that he was trying to become me in certain aspects- that he resented my emotional stability and basically wondered what my "secret" was... how was I doing it and how could he copy it? I felt resentful about this- that he was trespassing on my happiness/inner contentment... trying to usurp it. I felt threatened by that understandably enough and I decided that I didn't want to relate to that inner child side of his anymore. I didn't want to be vulnerable around him because it was too hard.

Being empathetic with someone on a continuous basis means being vulnerable and that's why it comes with a huge personal cost. I know that people talk here about boundaries but once I care about someone, I'm in. I've had to learn to care less... to be less empathetic and to put myself first.

I tried to be as empathetic with my exUBPDgf as I could possibly be. It came with a huge price. Me. I tried so hard to listen to her. To try and relate to what she was saying to me and what she was trying to say in her less then stellar moments. I felt her pain. And there was alot of it. And it hurt to feel that. I would ask her gently, where was the origin of this pain. She would shut down on me. When devaluation kicked in, she started to expect me to read her mind and know how she was feeling. Literally. And still, I was as empathetic with her as I could be. It left me completely exposed, reaching out to her each time. None of my empathy worked. Was I doing it wrong? I tried. I failed in that regard.

There might be some confusion between empathy and boundaries.

Being empathetic and hearing where someone is coming from is important.  It facilitates communication - the backbone to any relationship.  It's not about agreeing on everything.  It also humanizes.

What it doesn't mean is to totally lay down and give a person everything they are demanding. This isn't being healthy either.  Empathy isn't a replacement or solution.

It also doesn't mean that things will miraculousy be smooth or the person will be all of sudden a happy, well adjusted person with great coping skills. Just that you hear where this person was/is coming from or experiencing.

Where you go from there is really about choice.  Choice about values, principles and personal/family needs.  Stay, go, etc.

Having empathy isn't exclusive to the staying board. 

Separate it from "why didn't I get it back or why doesn't/didn't it make this person treat me better?". 

musicfan42, Ironmanfalls, ShadowDancer , like you, a failed relationship brought to me here.  We come here to grieve, to detach and to eventually dissect and rehabilitate our own relationship skills.  

In the spirit of the latter:

~ how do you feel about empathy/listening in relationships in general - what is the motivation to be empathetic - when should one stop being empathetic?

~ how do you assess your own skills?  Where you a truly open listener in your last relationship,  a conditional listener, or one needing to be heard and reorient the other's thinking?

~ how do you see yourself different in your future relationships - especially in difficult times of conflict?

I think it is important to have empathy in a relationship because it allows you to feel and connect with the other person on a deeper level. If they are hurting, you can feel their hurt and try and comfort them by relating to that hurt in a more personal way. My previous relationship partners have always complimented me on that aspect of me, telling me that it is a gift that I have. My only motivation is, well there really isn't a motivation, I have always been like this. It is how I can connect with someone which for me goes beyond just listening to the other person. I want to experience what it is like to be in their shoes, so I can better grasp how it is they are feeling. One should not stop being empathetic but instead try and lessen the connection to that person so to speak. I don't even know if that makes any sense. I don't know how to be empathetic without completely opening myself up which leaves me completely vulnerable.




I would consider myself an open listener. My previous relationships and close friends have always remarked that I am really good at listening to people and relating to them.


A good question. At this point, since I am not fully healed, I honestly do not know. My empathy which I have always thought as a gift did not help me at all. I do not know how to keep that conduit of my empathy open to the other person and to protect myself at the same time.

Interesting questions Skip :)


I think they're both important skills in relationships.

I often feel empty so I think that I give empathy to others in the hope that they'll give me empathy in return- that they'll notice how empty I feel.

I think that one should stop being empathetic when someone else is taking advantage.


I think my listening skills are pretty good however there's always room for improvement


I'm going to take more time outs and set more boundaries.

Thank you for asking these three question Skip. I found them to be profound and certainly self revealing. In the moment I am at a loss for a formulated coherent reply as I feel some personal reflection is necessary to answer with a candid forthright non defensive honesty. I am going to load up the dogs and take a long walk on the beach and ponder these three questions and reply to them when I am able.

My thinking is much along the lines of Green Mango's.  A mentor in my life told me that it is important not to give away my soul in relationships.  My soul is MINE and it very precious, and the only person who can really protect it is ME.  It appears some are confusing empathy with "laying down everything" for the other.  This is not empathy at all, in my opinion.  The mention of boundaries by Green Mango ties in here and is very important.  I can show the other empathy while remaining detached on a healthy level.  My mistake was giving her my soul, so to speak.  In the process, I began to lose myself.  This took me to some very dark places.  Keeping myself in tact and whole is key to practicing empathy.

 
I wonder if there is some misunderstanding as to what empathy really is.  Empathy is the ability to truly listen to someone.  It does not entail vulnerability or self sacrifice - although it does require us to set our own emotions, perspectives, feelings, "need to be heard" down temporarily, while we listen.

Empathy is a listening skill. It is the ability to look at someone else's situation and understand beyond our own feelings and our needs. That does not necessarily mean we agree but that we can understand and acknowledge why the other person feels the way they do. Hearing someone and acknowledging what they are saying is very important in relationships.

I feel like what you are describing, Ironmanfalls, is perhaps enmeshment -  where our feelings and those of another person overlap, psychologically.  Where the other person's feelings become our own.  Enmeshment is more than understanding what another is experiencing - it is more taking on it on or trying to sooth it / solve it.

Enmeshment is enabling and involves self-sacrifice - empathy does not.  Enmeshment is part of co-dependency.


You are asking the right question.   |iiii

I agree that if we naturally have respect for someone, it is easier to be empathetic. Our feeling of respect shows us we perceive value in that person, and our relationship with them.

I also think that there is a difference between having respect and giving respect. Remembering the things that someone has done, in order to feel respect for them I think is an attempt to have respect for that person. Giving respect to someone is how we treat them regardless of how we feel about them. It is a good idea for a workshop!


That, in my opinion, might be the the instance where it's a good idea to "make that call" as Skip mentioned earlier on in this Workshop, and disengage from that kind of discussion (boundaries to protect ourselves), rather than taking the abuse and trying to not take it personally (when someone is hurting us, it IS personal)... .

Gidget, Thank you for sharing your story. It illustrates so well the bumpy path parenting our kids can be when there is something missing in our connection with them. As parents we do tend to take it all very personal. Yet our feelings of "hurt, rage, disbelief... .abuse" are very real. And these experiences do have a trememdous impact on our ability to react with empathy/validation/understanding, even when we have the tools inside ourselves somewhere. This reply focuses on the "how to".

I have struggled for 27 years with my BPDDD27 (LD, ADHD, anxiety/panic, bipolar, ODD, as child/teen; BPD as young adult), and am now struggling with my gd8 (anxiety, ADHD) that dh and I are raising.

In the past year I have been exposed to a new way of practicing these tools. Gd's T works with both of us. DD has been to a few sessions, but she has a lot of work to do on her own before she can participate. Dh declines to participate, being very resistant to the very idea of therapy - a very independent, fix it myself kind of guy. About a year ago this T offer me a book "Creating Loving Attachments... .", Kim Golding and Daniel Hughes. I have since read two new books by Daniel Huges, co-authored with others, that specialize in creating healthy relationships with others that trigger our innate self-protective systems. Last week I was able to attend a one-day training workshop he provided for parents and professionals.

He interacted with us using awesome empathy skills - he role-played the answers to the participants questions and role-played many of the topics he was sharing. He gave us a sample dialogue that addresses his PACE process plus so many of the resources I have found here. He has 40 years of working with families involved in foster care, adoption, and intense bio kids. His approach incorporates theory from attachment, behavior, pshycology and interpersonal neuroscience. It all makes so much more sense to me, and gives me hope that I do have the ability to overcome limits of my own fragmented life story and build better connections with both my girls. I have developed a core belief that attachment issues are a key to solving many mental illnesses, esp. PD's.

The first step is to take care of ourselves - physically, emotionally, spriritually. Doing yoga, meditation/prayer practices, building supportive relationships in our life - espcially with our partners, getting therapy from well trained/experienced couselor. This helps us unblock all the systems we need to use the tools and skills. He bases this on a lot of new understanding of the neuroscience of how humans are designed to interact - and how we are designed to shut down when feel the need to self-protect.

This self-protection is where you may have been, Gidget. Me too. I am slowly climbing out of the dark abyss of the past 9 months or so. I created protective boundaries as my DD27's abusiveness pounded relentlessly on me, and she had the greatest extinction burst I can ever imagine. Yet, when she hit a bottom and melted down, I was able to push out and be there for her. She reached out to me for help and I had these new tools to respond from a more loving place with empathy and understanding. This wore me down in a different way - fatigue.

Here is an excerpt from Daniel Hughes newest book that really helped me help myself -- then I could connect with my DD and with those in my support circle. "8 Keys to Building Your Best Reataionships". This quote referenced 2011 material from David Rock and Daniel J. Siegel, MD., a neuroscience researcher.


THE HEALTHY MIND PLATTER: Seven daily essential mental activities to optimize brain matter and create well-being

• FOCUS TIME: When we closely focus on tasks in a goal-oriented way, we take on challenges that make deep connections in the brain.



• PLAYTIME: When we allow ourselves to be spontaneous or creative, playfully enjoying novel experiences, we help make new connections in the brain.



• CONNECTING TIME: When we connect with other people, ideally in person, and when we take time to appreciate our connection to the natural world around us, we activate and reinforce the brain's relational circuitry.



• PHYSICAL TIME: When we move our bodies, aerobically if medically possible, we strengthen the brain in many ways.



• TIME-IN: When we quietly reflect internally, focusing on sensations, images, feelings, and thoughts, we help to better integrate the brain.



• DOWNTIME: When we are non-focused, without any specific goal, and let our mind wander or simply relax, we help the brain recharge.



• SLEEP TIME: When we give the brain the rest it needs, and consolidate learning and recover from the experiences of the day.

[/color]

The "How To" starts with taking care of me. It is so easy to give up on myself in the day to day demands of my life. Hope this helps all who read here.

qcr

• Remove Ourselves / Gain Perspective - When you take things personally, you cannot separate yourself enough to feel the other person’s pain. Detach enough so that you are not in a emotionally heightened state— do not allowing the other person’s behavior to upset you or trigger you.

 

This has really helped me when I practiced this.  It is really hard not to take things, personally. However, if you keep in mind the illness, then it becomes so much easier.  I practice this MOST of the time.  Sometimes, I still slip on this.  But, I will dwell on what was said, and I look at it from their perspective.  I go back and get a do over.  My dd thanks me for validating her feelings.   Not making it personal has helped tremendously!

See Empathy as a Lifestyle, Not an Event -  Make an effort to heal the past hurts, to remember to accentuate the positive, and to nurture the relationship on a daily basis.  Most importantly, be mindful that when we are angry we can do a lot of damage and set things way back.

This is a great desire for me, and one of my biggest challenges. It is so easy to get my own intense emotions going and stop hearing the other person. I am a big fixer - such a hard pattern to break. This is especially difficult when the pwBPD shifts in to projecting blame on me instead of taking personal responsibility. Easy to get into that defensive mode filled with explaining, defending, etc. I even recruit others in the situation to engage in my defense - all the while perceiving that I am helping the pwBPD.

So how can I break into this reaction? Be aware of my body - posture, voice (intensity, speed, etc.), breathing and muscle tension. Then intentionally breath a little deeper, consciously relax my face and give myself a half-smile, focus my eyes on  other person's face, lean forward just a little... . And do all this in a moment. Takes lots of practice for both the awareness and the quick flow into a better state of being.

I think I need to be practicing more.

qcr

Be Present/ Be an Active Listener - Listen to the person in the moment, truly utilizing the skills of actively listening.  Don't jump ahead, re-frame what they are saying and compare it to a personal experience you had, don't rush to project ahead, or to frame a response.  When we do this we completely lose sight of the reason of our conversation in the first place, sharing information as a means to build, maintain and sustain the relationship.

I like this one a lot because I feel I do this at times... . jumping ahead... . I have really worked on this over the last year... . I find I do this more when it is a repeat of an old disagreement... . my dd16 will want something like say a tattoo... . it is hard not to jump ahead because we have had this conversation so many times but I realize it is important that she is heard.

I have just read again, this time in the book "Emotional Intelligence" that when 'emotions go up, thinking ability goes down.' And that it's the same for our ability to really listen, when our own emotions are triggered.

So, to expound on the points of:

Remove Ourselves / Gain Perspective

Be Present/ Be an Active Listener

If I happen to catch myself early enough, to be able to listen better, I deliberately try to relax my body to feel more comfortable and to counteract that fight-or-flight reflex, and slow-down and deepen my breathing... .

(very much like what qcarolr said... . )

All of the above skills are great for empathy.  When I am having a really, really, tough time reaching empathy what I do is go on youtube and type in "borderline personality disorder what it feels like" and trust me, it has never failed to bring me to tears and a REAL empathy for my dd26.  There are personal accounts of how difficult it is to live with BPD by people diagnosed with it.   It is raw and sometimes very difficult to watch.  Be prepared for to view very hard/difficult realities for those diagnosed BPD.  As I said, it never fails to bring about empathy instantaneously.

Hi All

•Talk to the Person's Inner-Child - When we visualize our child as their vulnerable inner-child we can lower and lessen our defenses, that will then allow us to want to preserve the relationship and communicate in an effective way.

What is meant to "talk to the inner child" when I talk to my BPD wife?

I think here is something very important that I am missing

Please elaborate extensively

Further reading suggestions also please

Inner child refers to base feeling feelings and reactions. In this mode you strip away all the learned "appropriate" consequencies and responsibilities. Stripping it back to instinctive reactions to impulses and stimulus, without judging whether it is right or wrong.

pwBPD's stunted emotional maturity, often leaves them stranded in this mode to some degree. It is a well known psychotherapy phrase, so you should be able to google some info on this.

I participated in the empathy levels evaluation by asking my 14 y/o son and my BPD fiance' to assess me.  The results were really different.  My fiance' said I'm 1, 2, and 3 and my son said I'm 0 or 1.  It was really eye-opening and allows me to understand where I can direct my growth in this area 

How do we have empathy for a BPD parent who physically and verbally abused you in your past and is now doing so as a senior? How do we not self abandon or put ourselves and our inner children in harms way? How do we not feel guilty for needing to protect ourselves in the face of psychological and verbal abuse, shame and guilt?

Hi TJP.


Sometimes it is not possible, at least not without a whole lot of recovery behind you and even then empathy can be a tall order for someone who abused you from childhood on.

I think the first steps involve honoring you and your inner child and the feelings you have as being justified and valid.   Give yourself the space and emotional support you need.   Look at the guilt you feel and explore it.  Ask if it is reality based or if it stems from conditioning that occurred in childhood and or misguided expectations imposed by society that either is living in a pretty bubble or never experienced the type of dysfunction you did.  

At this point I would recommend putting the issue of having empathy aside.  Don't put it away as over time you may be able to or even want to work towards it.  It is okay if now is not that time.

Thanks so much for the thoughtful and insightful reply  :love-it: