1.14 | How To Be More Empathetic To The pwBPD In Our Life?

[Mara2]

If you don't have that deep respect, it becomes difficult to maintain the desire to be genuinely empathetic in a continuous way. Maintaining empathy for someone you respect is a lot easier than feeling empathy for someone you feel like you are just doing your duty of caring for, let alone if you are simply doing it keep the peace.

So True, Waverider!  Perhaps a workshop on respect would be in order.  This is where I have really been struggling and you hit the nail on the head.  Without respect it is so very hard to be truly empathetic, things become personal and the cycle begins all over again. 

I do find that when I work on finding ways to give respect (remember good things he has done) it is easier for me to listen with empathy.  When I am feeling disrespectful (ie you did this to me!) I would rather not put myself in his shoes. 

I think the hardest part for me is to remove myself and gain perspective.  This is really difficult when the person is verbally attacking, but saying it in a very calm, pleasant way.  They are "helping" you see your faults and blind spots.  I'm OK with someone pointing out a blind spot if it is true, but when it is a projection and it happens over and over it gets really hard.  So for me this is where I need to concentrate my efforts- Don't take it personally! 

[musicfan42]

Talk to the Person's Inner-Child - When we visualize our child as their vulnerable inner-child we can lower and lessen our defenses, that will then allow us to want to preserve the relationship and communicate in an effective way.

I've never tried this technique... .I imagine it would be highly effective.

This tip does work. It left me feeling resentful afterwards though. I thought "but he's not a child-he needs to just grow up". I felt resentful too because I wasn't getting that same empathy in return. So yes, this tip works but it only worked for me in the short-term. Over the long-term, I just had to get out of the relationship and consciously choose to be around empathetic people.

I think all these tips work but they come at a huge personal cost to me I felt that I was sacrificing my needs for someone else's needs. If someone treats me well, then I don't have a problem showing them empathy but if someone treats me badly, then I naturally feel angry and want to stand up for myself.

[Grey Kitty]

I think all these tips work but they come at a huge personal cost to me I felt that I was sacrificing my needs for someone else's needs. If someone treats me well, then I don't have a problem showing them empathy but if someone treats me badly, then I naturally feel angry and want to stand up for myself.

I agree about standing up for yourself when treated badly, however I think that even people who treat us badly can receive our empathy, while we protect ourselves. I think that huge personal cost comes up when we "give" something for reasons other than generosity. If you speak to their inner child simply because you wish to help their wounded inner child, you won't feel resentful later. If you are doing it out of the expectation of a kind response, you will feel betrayed when that doesn't come.

[musicfan42]

Grey Kitty- I think that we have completely different perspectives on this issue so lets agree to disagree on this one.

[ShadowDancer]

Actually I don't have to bother myself with this issue at all. I am on the "leaving" board and am strict NO COMMUNICATION. I have released that person into Gods hands. I let GOD show empathy or validation or whatever... .

If I had a child or parent with this disorder that would be different... .but I don't. I think I will practice a little self empathy and validation and stay the course of minding my own side of the street.

[musicfan42]

Actually I don't have to bother myself with this issue at all. I am on the "leaving" board and am strict NO COMMUNICATION. I have released that person into Gods hands. I let GOD show empathy or validation or whatever... .

I agree with you however I've still gotten a lot from this thread. Waverider had a good point earlier that respect is important in relationships- that it can only be earned by the person's deeds. I didn't respect my BPD ex. He was older than me so I felt that he should be emotionally mature.

There were times when I related to his inner child and it was nice but then I'd remind myself that he wasn't a child. And that was painful. He could only be vulnerable in that inner child state and then he'd just return to being competitive. I felt this strong undercurrent of competitiveness throughout the relationship. I felt that he was trying to become me in certain aspects- that he resented my emotional stability and basically wondered what my "secret" was... how was I doing it and how could he copy it? I felt resentful about this- that he was trespassing on my happiness/inner contentment... trying to usurp it. I felt threatened by that understandably enough and I decided that I didn't want to relate to that inner child side of his anymore. I didn't want to be vulnerable around him because it was too hard.

Being empathetic with someone on a continuous basis means being vulnerable and that's why it comes with a huge personal cost. I know that people talk here about boundaries but once I care about someone, I'm in. I've had to learn to care less... to be less empathetic and to put myself first.

[Ironmanrises]

I tried to be as empathetic with my exUBPDgf as I could possibly be. It came with a huge price. Me. I tried so hard to listen to her. To try and relate to what she was saying to me and what she was trying to say in her less then stellar moments. I felt her pain. And there was alot of it. And it hurt to feel that. I would ask her gently, where was the origin of this pain. She would shut down on me. When devaluation kicked in, she started to expect me to read her mind and know how she was feeling. Literally. And still, I was as empathetic with her as I could be. It left me completely exposed, reaching out to her each time. None of my empathy worked. Was I doing it wrong? I tried. I failed in that regard.

[GreenMango]

There might be some confusion between empathy and boundaries.

Being empathetic and hearing where someone is coming from is important.  It facilitates communication - the backbone to any relationship.  It's not about agreeing on everything.  It also humanizes.

What it doesn't mean is to totally lay down and give a person everything they are demanding. This isn't being healthy either.  Empathy isn't a replacement or solution.

It also doesn't mean that things will miraculousy be smooth or the person will be all of sudden a happy, well adjusted person with great coping skills. Just that you hear where this person was/is coming from or experiencing.

Where you go from there is really about choice.  Choice about values, principles and personal/family needs.  Stay, go, etc.

Having empathy isn't exclusive to the staying board. 

Separate it from "why didn't I get it back or why doesn't/didn't it make this person treat me better?". 

[Skip]

musicfan42, Ironmanfalls, ShadowDancer , like you, a failed relationship brought to me here.  We come here to grieve, to detach and to eventually dissect and rehabilitate our own relationship skills.  

In the spirit of the latter:

~ how do you feel about empathy/listening in relationships in general - what is the motivation to be empathetic - when should one stop being empathetic?

~ how do you assess your own skills?  Where you a truly open listener in your last relationship,  a conditional listener, or one needing to be heard and reorient the other's thinking?

~ how do you see yourself different in your future relationships - especially in difficult times of conflict?

[Ironmanrises]

~ how do you feel about empathy/listening in relationships in general - what is the motivation to be empathetic - when should one stop being empathetic?

I think it is important to have empathy in a relationship because it allows you to feel and connect with the other person on a deeper level. If they are hurting, you can feel their hurt and try and comfort them by relating to that hurt in a more personal way. My previous relationship partners have always complimented me on that aspect of me, telling me that it is a gift that I have. My only motivation is, well there really isn't a motivation, I have always been like this. It is how I can connect with someone which for me goes beyond just listening to the other person. I want to experience what it is like to be in their shoes, so I can better grasp how it is they are feeling. One should not stop being empathetic but instead try and lessen the connection to that person so to speak. I don't even know if that makes any sense. I don't know how to be empathetic without completely opening myself up which leaves me completely vulnerable.

~ how do you assess your own skills?

Where you a truly open listener in your last relationship,  a conditional listener, or one needing to be heard and reorient the other's thinking?

I would consider myself an open listener. My previous relationships and close friends have always remarked that I am really good at listening to people and relating to them.

~ how do you see yourself different in your future relationships - especially in difficult times of conflict?

A good question. At this point, since I am not fully healed, I honestly do not know. My empathy which I have always thought as a gift did not help me at all. I do not know how to keep that conduit of my empathy open to the other person and to protect myself at the same time.

[musicfan42]

Interesting questions Skip

~ how do you feel about empathy/listening in relationships in general - what is the motivation to be empathetic - when should one stop being empathetic?

I think they're both important skills in relationships.

I often feel empty so I think that I give empathy to others in the hope that they'll give me empathy in return- that they'll notice how empty I feel.

I think that one should stop being empathetic when someone else is taking advantage.

~ how do you assess your own skills?  Where you a truly open listener in your last relationship,  a conditional listener, or one needing to be heard and reorient the other's thinking?

I think my listening skills are pretty good however there's always room for improvement

~ how do you see yourself different in your future relationships - especially in difficult times of conflict?

I'm going to take more time outs and set more boundaries.

[ShadowDancer]

Thank you for asking these three question Skip. I found them to be profound and certainly self revealing. In the moment I am at a loss for a formulated coherent reply as I feel some personal reflection is necessary to answer with a candid forthright non defensive honesty. I am going to load up the dogs and take a long walk on the beach and ponder these three questions and reply to them when I am able.

[Phoenix.Rising]

There might be some confusion between empathy and boundaries.

Being empathetic and hearing where someone is coming from is important.  It facilitates communication - the backbone to any relationship.  It's not about agreeing on everything.  It also humanizes.

What it doesn't mean is to totally lay down and give a person everything they are demanding. This isn't being healthy either.  Empathy isn't a replacement or solution.

It also doesn't mean that things will miraculously be smooth or the person will be all of sudden a happy, well adjusted person with great coping skills. Just that you hear where this person was/is coming from or experiencing.

Where you go from there is really about choice.  Choice about values, principles and personal/family needs.  Stay, go, etc.

Having empathy isn't exclusive to the staying board. 

Separate it from "why didn't I get it back or why doesn't/didn't it make this person treat me better?". 

My thinking is much along the lines of Green Mango's.  A mentor in my life told me that it is important not to give away my soul in relationships.  My soul is MINE and it very precious, and the only person who can really protect it is ME.  It appears some are confusing empathy with "laying down everything" for the other.  This is not empathy at all, in my opinion.  The mention of boundaries by Green Mango ties in here and is very important.  I can show the other empathy while remaining detached on a healthy level.  My mistake was giving her my soul, so to speak.  In the process, I began to lose myself.  This took me to some very dark places.  Keeping myself in tact and whole is key to practicing empathy.

[DreamGirl]

 

~ how do you feel about empathy/listening in relationships in general - what is the motivation to be empathetic - when should one stop being empathetic?

I think it is important to have empathy in a relationship because it allows you to feel and connect with the other person on a deeper level. If they are hurting, you can feel their hurt and try and comfort them by relating to that hurt in a more personal way. My previous relationship partners have always complimented me on that aspect of me, telling me that it is a gift that I have. My only motivation is, well there really isn't a motivation, I have always been like this. It is how I can connect with someone which for me goes beyond just listening to the other person. I want to experience what it is like to be in their shoes, so I can better grasp how it is they are feeling. One should not stop being empathetic but instead try and lessen the connection to that person so to speak. I don't even know if that makes any sense. I don't know how to be empathetic without completely opening myself up which leaves me completely vulnerable.

I wonder if there is some misunderstanding as to what empathy really is.  Empathy is the ability to truly listen to someone.  It does not entail vulnerability or self sacrifice - although it does require us to set our own emotions, perspectives, feelings, "need to be heard" down temporarily, while we listen.

Empathy is a listening skill. It is the ability to look at someone else's situation and understand beyond our own feelings and our needs. That does not necessarily mean we agree but that we can understand and acknowledge why the other person feels the way they do. Hearing someone and acknowledging what they are saying is very important in relationships.

I feel like what you are describing, Ironmanfalls, is perhaps enmeshment -  where our feelings and those of another person overlap, psychologically.  Where the other person's feelings become our own.  Enmeshment is more than understanding what another is experiencing - it is more taking on it on or trying to sooth it / solve it.

Enmeshment is enabling and involves self-sacrifice - empathy does not.  Enmeshment is part of co-dependency.

~ how do you see yourself different in your future relationships - especially in difficult times of conflict?

A good question. At this point, since I am not fully healed, I honestly do not know. My empathy which I have always thought as a gift did not help me at all. I do not know how to keep that conduit of my empathy open to the other person and to protect myself at the same time.

You are asking the right question.   

[pessim-optimist]

If you don't have that deep respect, it becomes difficult to maintain the desire to be genuinely empathetic in a continuous way. Maintaining empathy for someone you respect is a lot easier than feeling empathy for someone you feel like you are just doing your duty of caring for, let alone if you are simply doing it keep the peace.

I do find that when I work on finding ways to give respect (remember good things he has done) it is easier for me to listen with empathy.  When I am feeling disrespectful (ie you did this to me!) I would rather not put myself in his shoes.

I agree that if we naturally have respect for someone, it is easier to be empathetic. Our feeling of respect shows us we perceive value in that person, and our relationship with them.

I also think that there is a difference between having respect and giving respect. Remembering the things that someone has done, in order to feel respect for them I think is an attempt to have respect for that person. Giving respect to someone is how we treat them regardless of how we feel about them. It is a good idea for a workshop!

I think the hardest part for me is to remove myself and gain perspective.  This is really difficult when the person is verbally attacking, but saying it in a very calm, pleasant way.  They are "helping" you see your faults and blind spots.  I'm OK with someone pointing out a blind spot if it is true, but when it is a projection and it happens over and over it gets really hard.  So for me this is where I need to concentrate my efforts- Don't take it personally! 

That, in my opinion, might be the the instance where it's a good idea to "make that call" as Skip mentioned earlier on in this Workshop, and disengage from that kind of discussion (boundaries to protect ourselves), rather than taking the abuse and trying to not take it personally (when someone is hurting us, it IS personal)... .

[qcarolr]

Gidget, Thank you for sharing your story. It illustrates so well the bumpy path parenting our kids can be when there is something missing in our connection with them. As parents we do tend to take it all very personal. Yet our feelings of "hurt, rage, disbelief... .abuse" are very real. And these experiences do have a trememdous impact on our ability to react with empathy/validation/understanding, even when we have the tools inside ourselves somewhere. This reply focuses on the "how to".

I have struggled for 27 years with my BPDDD27 (LD, ADHD, anxiety/panic, bipolar, ODD, as child/teen; BPD as young adult), and am now struggling with my gd8 (anxiety, ADHD) that dh and I are raising.

In the past year I have been exposed to a new way of practicing these tools. Gd's T works with both of us. DD has been to a few sessions, but she has a lot of work to do on her own before she can participate. Dh declines to participate, being very resistant to the very idea of therapy - a very independent, fix it myself kind of guy. About a year ago this T offer me a book "Creating Loving Attachments... .", Kim Golding and Daniel Hughes. I have since read two new books by Daniel Huges, co-authored with others, that specialize in creating healthy relationships with others that trigger our innate self-protective systems. Last week I was able to attend a one-day training workshop he provided for parents and professionals.

He interacted with us using awesome empathy skills - he role-played the answers to the participants questions and role-played many of the topics he was sharing. He gave us a sample dialogue that addresses his PACE process plus so many of the resources I have found here. He has 40 years of working with families involved in foster care, adoption, and intense bio kids. His approach incorporates theory from attachment, behavior, pshycology and interpersonal neuroscience. It all makes so much more sense to me, and gives me hope that I do have the ability to overcome limits of my own fragmented life story and build better connections with both my girls. I have developed a core belief that attachment issues are a key to solving many mental illnesses, esp. PD's.

The first step is to take care of ourselves - physically, emotionally, spriritually. Doing yoga, meditation/prayer practices, building supportive relationships in our life - espcially with our partners, getting therapy from well trained/experienced couselor. This helps us unblock all the systems we need to use the tools and skills. He bases this on a lot of new understanding of the neuroscience of how humans are designed to interact - and how we are designed to shut down when feel the need to self-protect.

This self-protection is where you may have been, Gidget. Me too. I am slowly climbing out of the dark abyss of the past 9 months or so. I created protective boundaries as my DD27's abusiveness pounded relentlessly on me, and she had the greatest extinction burst I can ever imagine. Yet, when she hit a bottom and melted down, I was able to push out and be there for her. She reached out to me for help and I had these new tools to respond from a more loving place with empathy and understanding. This wore me down in a different way - fatigue.

Here is an excerpt from Daniel Hughes newest book that really helped me help myself -- then I could connect with my DD and with those in my support circle. "8 Keys to Building Your Best Reataionships". This quote referenced 2011 material from David Rock and Daniel J. Siegel, MD., a neuroscience researcher.


THE HEALTHY MIND PLATTER: Seven daily essential mental activities to optimize brain matter and create well-being

• FOCUS TIME: When we closely focus on tasks in a goal-oriented way, we take on challenges that make deep connections in the brain.



• PLAYTIME: When we allow ourselves to be spontaneous or creative, playfully enjoying novel experiences, we help make new connections in the brain.



• CONNECTING TIME: When we connect with other people, ideally in person, and when we take time to appreciate our connection to the natural world around us, we activate and reinforce the brain's relational circuitry.



• PHYSICAL TIME: When we move our bodies, aerobically if medically possible, we strengthen the brain in many ways.



• TIME-IN: When we quietly reflect internally, focusing on sensations, images, feelings, and thoughts, we help to better integrate the brain.



• DOWNTIME: When we are non-focused, without any specific goal, and let our mind wander or simply relax, we help the brain recharge.



• SLEEP TIME: When we give the brain the rest it needs, and consolidate learning and recover from the experiences of the day.

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The "How To" starts with taking care of me. It is so easy to give up on myself in the day to day demands of my life. Hope this helps all who read here.

qcr

[peaceplease]

• Remove Ourselves / Gain Perspective - When you take things personally, you cannot separate yourself enough to feel the other person’s pain. Detach enough so that you are not in a emotionally heightened state— do not allowing the other person’s behavior to upset you or trigger you.

 

This has really helped me when I practiced this.  It is really hard not to take things, personally. However, if you keep in mind the illness, then it becomes so much easier.  I practice this MOST of the time.  Sometimes, I still slip on this.  But, I will dwell on what was said, and I look at it from their perspective.  I go back and get a do over.  My dd thanks me for validating her feelings.   Not making it personal has helped tremendously!

[qcarolr]

See Empathy as a Lifestyle, Not an Event -  Make an effort to heal the past hurts, to remember to accentuate the positive, and to nurture the relationship on a daily basis.  Most importantly, be mindful that when we are angry we can do a lot of damage and set things way back.

This is a great desire for me, and one of my biggest challenges. It is so easy to get my own intense emotions going and stop hearing the other person. I am a big fixer - such a hard pattern to break. This is especially difficult when the pwBPD shifts in to projecting blame on me instead of taking personal responsibility. Easy to get into that defensive mode filled with explaining, defending, etc. I even recruit others in the situation to engage in my defense - all the while perceiving that I am helping the pwBPD.

So how can I break into this reaction? Be aware of my body - posture, voice (intensity, speed, etc.), breathing and muscle tension. Then intentionally breath a little deeper, consciously relax my face and give myself a half-smile, focus my eyes on  other person's face, lean forward just a little... . And do all this in a moment. Takes lots of practice for both the awareness and the quick flow into a better state of being.

I think I need to be practicing more.

qcr

[scallops]

Be Present/ Be an Active Listener - Listen to the person in the moment, truly utilizing the skills of actively listening.  Don't jump ahead, re-frame what they are saying and compare it to a personal experience you had, don't rush to project ahead, or to frame a response.  When we do this we completely lose sight of the reason of our conversation in the first place, sharing information as a means to build, maintain and sustain the relationship.

I like this one a lot because I feel I do this at times... . jumping ahead... . I have really worked on this over the last year... . I find I do this more when it is a repeat of an old disagreement... . my dd16 will want something like say a tattoo... . it is hard not to jump ahead because we have had this conversation so many times but I realize it is important that she is heard.

[pessim-optimist]

I have just read again, this time in the book "Emotional Intelligence" that when 'emotions go up, thinking ability goes down.' And that it's the same for our ability to really listen, when our own emotions are triggered.

So, to expound on the points of:

Remove Ourselves / Gain Perspective

Be Present/ Be an Active Listener

If I happen to catch myself early enough, to be able to listen better, I deliberately try to relax my body to feel more comfortable and to counteract that fight-or-flight reflex, and slow-down and deepen my breathing... .

(very much like what qcarolr said... . )

[Someday . . .]

All of the above skills are great for empathy.  When I am having a really, really, tough time reaching empathy what I do is go on youtube and type in "borderline personality disorder what it feels like" and trust me, it has never failed to bring me to tears and a REAL empathy for my dd26.  There are personal accounts of how difficult it is to live with BPD by people diagnosed with it.   It is raw and sometimes very difficult to watch.  Be prepared for to view very hard/difficult realities for those diagnosed BPD.  As I said, it never fails to bring about empathy instantaneously.

[Fanie]

Hi All

•Talk to the Person's Inner-Child - When we visualize our child as their vulnerable inner-child we can lower and lessen our defenses, that will then allow us to want to preserve the relationship and communicate in an effective way.

What is meant to "talk to the inner child" when I talk to my BPD wife?

I think here is something very important that I am missing

Please elaborate extensively

Further reading suggestions also please

[waverider]

Hi All

•Talk to the Person's Inner-Child - When we visualize our child as their vulnerable inner-child we can lower and lessen our defenses, that will then allow us to want to preserve the relationship and communicate in an effective way.

What is meant to "talk to the inner child" when I talk to my BPD wife?

I think here is something very important that I am missing

Please elaborate extensively

Further reading suggestions also please

Inner child refers to base feeling feelings and reactions. In this mode you strip away all the learned "appropriate" consequencies and responsibilities. Stripping it back to instinctive reactions to impulses and stimulus, without judging whether it is right or wrong.

pwBPD's stunted emotional maturity, often leaves them stranded in this mode to some degree. It is a well known psychotherapy phrase, so you should be able to google some info on this.

[LordSoj]

I participated in the empathy levels evaluation by asking my 14 y/o son and my BPD fiance' to assess me.  The results were really different.  My fiance' said I'm 1, 2, and 3 and my son said I'm 0 or 1.  It was really eye-opening and allows me to understand where I can direct my growth in this area 

[TJP]

How do we have empathy for a BPD parent who physically and verbally abused you in your past and is now doing so as a senior? How do we not self abandon or put ourselves and our inner children in harms way? How do we not feel guilty for needing to protect ourselves in the face of psychological and verbal abuse, shame and guilt?

[Harri]

Hi TJP.

How do we have empathy for a BPD parent who physically and verbally abused you in your past and is now doing so as a senior? How do we not self abandon or put ourselves and our inner children in harms way? How do we not feel guilty for needing to protect ourselves in the face of psychological and verbal abuse, shame and guilt?

Sometimes it is not possible, at least not without a whole lot of recovery behind you and even then empathy can be a tall order for someone who abused you from childhood on.

I think the first steps involve honoring you and your inner child and the feelings you have as being justified and valid.   Give yourself the space and emotional support you need.   Look at the guilt you feel and explore it.  Ask if it is reality based or if it stems from conditioning that occurred in childhood and or misguided expectations imposed by society that either is living in a pretty bubble or never experienced the type of dysfunction you did.  

At this point I would recommend putting the issue of having empathy aside.  Don't put it away as over time you may be able to or even want to work towards it.  It is okay if now is not that time.

[TJP]

Thanks so much for the thoughtful and insightful reply