BPDFamily.com

I know a few of you have followed my story but in a nutshell:

I have a uBPD mother (65) and a uBPD husband (47).  Both are high functioning.  My mom had trauma as a kid.  My husband had some abuse as a kid but his mental illness really developed in his early 40's as a result of a series of very bad events.

I did a lot of work on boundaries/ validation etc with my mom a few years back and effectively have a normal relationship with her now (she has also done some work on herself).

My husband had become physically and emotionally abusive a few years ago and things were getting worse and worse until I found this site.  Everything culminated in a massive incident in July (my husband ended up in a ball crying for 3 days, promising that he had hit his bottom and would get help and get back on his feet).  The boundaries are working in many, many ways and our lives have improved greatly.

Right now we are in the middle of some stressful times.  My husband just finished his seasonal minimum wage (he's a highly intelligent qualified professional who is paralyzed by fear and anxiety at the moment).  One of his biggest triggers is not working.  Last week he did lots of work around the house and managed to hold it together (for the most part).  We had a bit of BPD drama but I was able to manage it with firm boundaries.  He has been applying for jobs on his own for the first time in 5 yrs!  I'm really proud of him but its taking everything he has got to do this.

Another note, is that as a result of therapy, I understand (reading between the lines) that he's probably mildly bipolar in addition to majorly BPD (and lots of anxiety and ocd to boot).

This morning we had drama.  I woke up at 5 am to our toddler crying for his bottle.  Went and got one and unfortunately the milk was empty and needed to be refilled.  I had to go to the bathroom and thought... .its 5 am I will go to the bathroom and then I will come back and refill the milk.  While I was in the bathroom my husband (who has a high metabolism as well as diabetes type 2- no insulin) went for a glass of milk.  It was empty and he lost it.  Normally we keep 2 jugs full but I wasn't on my game.  Anyway he threw food across the kitchen and went into a tirade about how I am ruining his life and he's deathly ill and I don't care about him and he's dying of diabetic nerve damage (diabetes doc says he has the best bloodwork that she has ever seen for a diabetic in 40 yrs as a doctor).  

All he had to do was take milk out of the shelf below and refill the jug but instead I got him yelling that he wants a divorce and he's going to die of a low blood sugar today (um, unlikely since he's diabetic and not on insulin).  He went on and on about how I am a cold hearted b and the devil incarnate etc etc and that he thinks that I am trying to destroy him.

I think that I managed ok this morning but there are so many things that come out of this situation that needs to be addressed.  I'm lost.

1.  He was hungry when he woke up because he worked out yesterday and ate cereal for dinner (his own decision).  I will not own it.

2.  Yes we agree that there will always be 2 milk jugs - this is important to him.  I missed it.  But there are 2 adults in the house.  I own exactly 50% of that responsibility.

3.  I am not ok with having the clean up messes in the kitchen because he's having a bad day.  I need a boundary here (normally I walk out if I'm preparing a meal but I actually have him doing his own breakfast now.  So I need a new boundary. Woo hoo.)!  

4.  He can't control his rages (generally).  They trigger once a week like clockwork.  He needs to be medicated.

I don't think that I can manage all of this in one conversation.  I have SET prepared for #4 but haven't found a good opportunity for it.  #3 I just need to be prepared and need ideas.

For 1 and 2, I was thinking "You're my best friend and I know that you are going through a lot right of stress right now.  I can't ever understand how hard it is to be gluten intolerant, have a high metabolism, and deal with diabetes.  You chose to eat cereal for dinner after a workout.  I offered to make you a dinner with more calories but you declined which put you into a bad situation with your blood sugar.  I can continue to try to make sure that there are 2 milks stocked in the fridge but I will miss it occasionally.  If you see me only stocking 1 milk please go ahead and help by filling up the 2nd jug so that you don't get caught in a bad situation when you are hungry."  

I am going to ignore the threat after threat of divorce, all the misc stuff he threw at me verbally this morning and the fact that he left his wedding ring on my pillow.  Last night he thanked me for being stable emotionally because currently (according to him) he is a basket case.  I set my stopwatch at that point to 12 hrs and began preparing for the next meltdown.  Not my first rodeo

  I'm so sorry to hear what you are going through. Again.


It sounds like you have the right attitude and the right tools for yourself. Practical solutions to things which set him off are the right thing to do, but won't solve the real problem.

I think your assessment that he needs more treatment is correct. When he is disordered, he is going to be less receptive than usual. (I'm sure you know this too.)

Boundaries will be necessary. First keep yourself safe. Second your son and your dogs. Then do as much as you can for your H.

I wish you strength.

 GK

Its all part of the process!

So you think the plan is ok... .well then I'll go for it :)

Any idea about what to do about him throwing food around the kitchen.  I can't not pick up the food.  The dogs would walk it through the house.  Not sure what else to do here... .

Allibaba

I, by no means, want to discount your efforts with your H; you have taken tremendous care in accepting him.

Reality is that once a week he blows.  He mouths off.  He throws stuff.  He gets out of control.

Understanding that he's going through stressful times is one thing.  Subjecting your son to this kind of behavior is another.  Regardless of his age, what room of the house he's in, doesn't matter.  He is being exposed to abuse.  His mother is being abused and allowing it.

This sort of thing cannot be intellectualized and spoken about in just the right way.  It is flat out domestic violence.


^^Is this a boundary of yours?^^

What if meds don't control his rages?

What is your bottom line?

My wife also has more difficulty controlling her anger when she's hungry (low blood sugar).  As we learn and work on our reactions these kinds of outburst start to lose their impact (removal of wedding rings, threats of divorce, etc.).  As these buttons lose their impact on us, they get pushed less and less. 

Hang in there. I've followed your journey for a long time, and you're doing great.  |iiii

You really are doing great, Allibaba.  It's so good to see!   |iiii

The one thing I wonder after reading your post may be what Phoebe picked up on too.  What is your boundary around verbal abuse?  From your past posts, I believe you have one.  I remember the one about stopping any food preparation that you're doing for him.

I ask because it seems that your h went pretty far into the list of accusations and threats.  Maybe he rattled them off pretty quickly.  But I wonder to what extent you may have stayed around, which gave him time to keep going.

I've noticed that the faster I enforce my "walk away and ignore" boundary, the less time my uBPDw has to make accusations and threats, the less I have to put up with hearing them, and the less she can take out her own negative emotions on me.

If you didn't pick up H's thrown food and the dogs tracked it through the house, what do you think his reaction would be?  Is it scary to think about?

The boundary around verbal abuse is that I DO NOT STICK AROUND.  I walk away.  This morning he followed me into the bathroom and spoke very very quickly before going down into the basement.  The verbal abuse lasted maybe 60 seconds max.  If we are in the car, then I make it clear that if he can't stop the verbal abuse that he is welcome to drop me off at the nearest driveway.  He's only taken me up on the 'offer' once.  At no point did I ok or even remain silent for the tirade.  I had to enforce the 'no verbal abuse' in the car this weekend.  It ended the behavior.  FYI our son was with a babysitter.  This morning he was asleep (I quietly checked after the tirade and he was snoring).

The follow up was probably two hours later when he told me that our relationship wasn't working.  Hadn't ever worked and that he wants a divorce.  He did throw in 2 cents that clearly I don't care about anyone because I allowed my alcoholic father to drink (clearly not my fault.  he got sober when I was in my early 20's and therefore I am a cold hearted b)


No its not scary to think about at all.  I refuse to allow milk or any other food to be tracked around my house and rot.  I have pride in my surroundings.


I am an adult and I chose to remain in this relationship and work on the tools required to improve our lives.  I have seen massive improvements over the last 6 months.  He cooks, he cleans, he has worked 95% of the time.  He contributes his earnings to our household bills and he has stopped spending every last penny we have on stupid stuff.  He now agrees that he suffers from mental illness and his dyregulations usually do not involve rages (he dyregulates once a week.  He doesn't rage once a week.  I did not state this correctly in my post as I was at work and in a hurry.  He's raged verbally to me 3x since July so about once a month). When he gets in a rage I do not stick around.  The walls in our house are thick.  I can't hear our son cry from our bedroom (which is next door to ours) unless the baby monitor is on or the doors are open. 

I do not agree with the following statement... .feeling free to point out where I am wrong. 


My husband does not want to expose our son to domestic violence since he himself was raised with it.  He generally limits it to me.  I have made it clear that I won't play his games any more.  

I would have no issue if a member of 'child protective services' was sitting on my shoulder like an angel watching my every move.  My first priority is my son.  I am not a victim and I have gone to great efforts to make sure that my son is not exposed to much of my husband's mood swings.  Since I started on this journey his exposure to abuse has decreased to almost nothing.  If my husband can't handle doing the baby routines - he tells me that he isn't up for it. If he's in a mood he goes downstairs.  The time that I don't have control over yet is the mornings.  He experiences strong anxiety when he wakes up (a lot to do with blood sugar).  The other dyregulations throughout the day have virtually disappeared.


No this is not a boundary.  I don't really think that I want to get into WHAT IFS on meds when he hasn't even tried them.  I also don't know what my bottom line is on meds.  I think people far too often jump to them when they are not a 'fix all'.

Thanks!  Funny thing is that I see lots of posts about diabetes, blood sugar issues, gluten intolerances and autoimmune diseases.  My husband has all of them.  I believe that the blood sugar imbalances and gluten increase aggression.   I can virtually always tie my husbands rages to eating too much bread or sugar late the day before.  He confirmed the same thing to me.

Now I really think your husband is a reincarnation of my late father. If you had asked my father, up to the day of his death, if he was abusive to his wife and kids, he would have been stunned that you had even posed the question. He himself was beaten and neglected, and his own behavior toward his family stopped a little short of what you have been describing here.

I think the consequences of our father's emotional illness and unpredictable outbursts have been the greatest for my brother, the only other male in the home as we kids were growing up. It seems to me now that a son has to short-circuit his natural impulses to protect his mother in situations like this. My brother will not ever speak of any of this, so I can't know the costs to him of this particular aspect of our childhood. (For the record: my brother has never married, has no children of his own, has had bouts of substance abuse and depression, but has otherwise been a high-functioning professional, as was his father. He is a highly ethical man, as was his father.)

I would love to hear if (given full disclosure) a therapist would advise you that there is a way to protect your son, without some very major changes in your family. One thing I strongly believe is that there is no wall so thick that children, even very small ones, are separate from what is happening between their parents.

You are a remarkable woman, really trying hard. I'm very, very sorry you have this disorder attacking the core of your family and home.

My husband openly acknowledges that his behavior towards me had become abusive back in July.  Its now a fact and is openly discussed in our house between my husband and I.  The was the foundation of our new beginning.  I don't expect things to change overnight.  Its not realistic.  I also don't expect him to be as healthy during stressful times.  That was kind of the point of my post. 

As long as the trends seem to be going in the right direction and my son, dogs, and I are not in danger then I am happy to stay in the relationship and keep working on it.


 

I'm sorry too.  Its important to remember though, I am not the only one fighting it.  My husband is fighting it too and he's not exactly playing with a full deck of cards.  He speaks openly and honestly about the horrors that go through his head.  He says right now he is able to pull back from 'losing it' (dyregulation) about 90% of the time.  I can see him do this because he now walks away quietly (either into our bedroom or outside).  He does this because I changed the way that I react to him and he no longer gets his needs fulfilled by tantrums.

The time that we still struggle with is the mornings and the more I think about it the more I believe that this is tied to FOOD (blood sugar - either low blood sugar from his high metabolism or the after effects of too much processed sugar or gluten the night before).


FYI 2 different therapists have had full disclosure of the happenings in our house.  The one that I see now says that the best thing that I can do for my son is the steps that I am following here and removing him calmly before things go south.  I'm usually able to do that by saying to my husband, 'I need to run errands would you like to keep the baby here? or do you want me to take him with me?'  He usually recognizes that he is 'out of his mind' and says 'no you take him'.

I'm under no illusion that my son isn't exposed to the conflict in our house but on the balance he sees more positives from his dad than negatives (he adores his dad and I am very supportive of that relationship) and I believe that at the moment as a two parenting team, we bring more balance to his life than I would alone.  I'm sure he hears some arguments but the majority of our disagreements are not yelling matches (they are rare) and objects don't normally fly around the house.  On the balance so far, he's a very happy little boy (everyone comments on that).  I watch every day for signs that he isn't adjusting well.  He goes to daycare and he's bright/ advanced for his age and very social.  I can't protect him from everything and I'm not going to try.  He gets to be a kid and that is what is most important.

Good.  Glad to hear!  I thought that was the case from your prior posts, but for some reason I wondered when I read your post above.  Thanks for confirming.  :)

Hmmm I think that I have stumbled on an option here.  His mood swings almost disappeared a few years ago when he went on a gluten free diet for 6 months.  I think that when I have the SET discussion about medication, the part where I say "what we are doing now isn't working" should be followed by some options of supporting him in a GF diet or mood stabilizers.  There is lots of links between gluten intolerance and mental illness.  One of the most common signs of gluten intolerance is

"Emotional issues involving chronic irritability and sudden, irrational mood shifts."

Learn more: www.naturalnews.com/038170_gluten_sensitivity_symptoms_intolerance.html#ixzz2iYPkPJsy

Depression

  Anxiety

  Neuropathy

  Irrational irritability

  Mood swings

www.glutenfreesociety.org/gluten-free-society-blog/gluten-sensitivity-intolerance-self-test/

And here is an interesting article... .

www.celiacdisease.about.com/od/CeliacNeuroSymptoms/a/Gluten-Neurological-Symptoms.htm

Thanks again for listening.  I really think that I have stumbled on something valuable here.  I forgot how good he was when he went gluten free for 6 months.

I think removing yourself and your son when things get scary is a great practice, and it seems to be paying off for all of you. . . . Have you discussed with your therapist(s) the best course of action when your husband throws food around? My general impression has been that therapists consider it counterproductive for the "non-throwing" spouse to clean up after the "throwing" spouse.

I agree here but the problem comes is that I have a personal value on cleanliness.  If he dumps food in the sink then I leave it but if its across the floors or walls then I clean it up.  I had some discussion about this a while back with the therapist but can't remember the outcome.  I do remember him saying that leaving the messes that my husband creates is important.  We had a box of cereal (closed) at the bottom of our stairs for 3 days last week until he picked it up.   :)

The food in the kitchen thing has come up 2x this month which is why I was asking if anyone had any idea on better boundaries.

I think you're asking exactly the right question, because the food dumped on the floor or thrown at the wall can be expected to increase in frequency, now that you're removing yourself when situations of general verbal dysregulation begin. (It re-directs your solicitous attention back to him, back to his diet, back to various ways to soothe him.)

I think I've seen maybe a dozen examples of advice here on bpdfamily.com (including advice from official Advisors) specifically regarding this issue of throwing things and making physical messes. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the idea is to endure the "extinction burst" of messes in the short term, in order to regain control of the physical environment in the long term. In other words, let him live (too) with the results of his actions.

I suspect he is very aware of the fact that you take pride in your home.

I think that you are spot on here.  He's found a way to take control back.  The answer is probably to put the dogs outside and leave the mess at least in the short-term.  He's an OCD neat freak so it eats at him far more than it eats at me.

His aunt (like a mother to him)... .once told me that if he leaves laundry on the floor... .put it on his pillow.  He'll quickly learn to pick it up.  My husband's parents used to drop him off to be with this aunt when he was acting up as a kid.  The story goes - he would always behave at her house (because it was the house of tough love).  This included if she found drugs in his drawers or coat pockets then she made it clear that she would be the one calling the police.  Got to love that aunt.  Got to take a page out of her book.

Phoebe hit on a difficult topic when she asked above, in this thread, what you are afraid of in the event you do not pick up after him. (And, just to be extra snarky, I will add that I find it of note that you touched on this issue with a therapist but cannot seem to remember what that discussion yielded.) I wonder if your conscious mind is not trying to "protect" you from answering this question.

I doubt it.  I have a TERRIBLE memory (admittedly serves me well at times).  It forgets about all sorts of stuff... .including (in this post) the fact that my husbands mood swings almost went away when he went off of gluten for 6 months in 2012!

I am not afraid of standing up to my husband anymore.  I am still afraid of him if I am near him when he rages.  I think that that is healthy fear that tells me when its time to leave the room/ the house/ or the situation.

Does he know, pretty clearly, what you will do if he gets so frustrated he hits you again, or pushes you down again, or throws something at you again?

I think that if unambiguous physical assault is your boundary, and if you have expressed it clearly, then you have accomplished the main thing that seems to define the successful "Stayers" who post here. They face their greatest fears.

It must be hurtful and humiliating to clean up after his deliberate fouling of your nest. Repeatedly. If I were doing this, I think it would only be out of fear. So this is what I do not understand about the new you . . . .

Hi Allibaba, I have gone through similar messes - making a mess is almost a power trip, a way of expressing power when a disregulated person is holding back from something more serious (hitting, physical, breaking objects). This shows some level of self-control and redirection. In a way, this is good, if only that it doesn't deteriorate. In another way, it is bad, because he will not clean up his own messes. Take a picture of every occurrence, before your clean it, and store it somewhere secure. Do this not just for your own memory (one loses track quickly of just how many times a bad thing happened to us, because we mentally block it). It is useful because it will eventually come up someday during an MC or mediator session that "I NEVER made a mess for you to clean up, tell me ONE instance where I did that!" And there you will have have it. Documentation is good. It's also good that he's got a high level of self-awareness even when he's going off his rocker, including during the times when he's off, and he seems to know he's off the rails then, so there's that. Still though, it is depressing and wearing down's one's resolve to deal with it on that frequency. I wish the best for you and your family.

Just want to add that I do not think of "facing your fears" as provoking him or anything. Something, maybe, one day along the lines of a therapeutic separation and/or requiring very specific therapy. Other options seem too dangerous in this particular situation, at least to me.

When you have time, check out the posts of "Steph," who was a long-time advisor to the Staying Board. She is a psychiatric nurse, and her husband was every bit as ill as yours is. She bit a really big bullet along the road to saving her marriage, and she is one of the undeniable success stories of this forum.

Added: terrific suggestions from stockholmama.

Thanks for this KateCat.  I have seen a few of the posts of Steph (maybe on the Success stories).  I'll try to track through her story when I get some more time.

I truly believe that my marriage is worth fighting for.  I do not believe that I am in any physical danger anymore.  The work with boundaries has cut out any physical aggression other than throwing things and like I said... .they now take flight in the opposite direction of me!  Yay!

I unfortunately believe to do the work to return our marriage/ family to sanity that I will have to bite a few bullets and swallow the old proverbial ego.  The fact that my husband understands that I am no longer the problem is HUGE (he only blames me when completely dyregulated and this is a huge change)!  For him to realize this, I had to grow a backbone and stop being a doormat. 

I also believe that my husband will ultimately get the treatment that he needs and we will return to a somewhat regular existence.  Last night he shared that he's had so many years of self-created drama that he's actually having to learn to be normal again.  Poor guy.  I even see it in myself.  When things are too good or too quiet I can antsy because I have become conditioned to the insanity.  When these days happen I take them for what they are - a blessing!  That means that the trauma and drama is reducing... .and I myself am having to ween off of my addiction to insanity.

Thanks again for your support.

These are great realizations, allibaba! (Don't suppose your husband wants some of that help--you know, like DBT--in learning how to be normal, does he?) :)

I think you are doing really well. It needs to be acknowledged that it is a slow and steady process getting things back on a healthy path. Even then it wont be perfect.

So I would suggest that you continue to consolidate on what you have achieved. Yes apply your mind to the next steps, but don't put too much pressure on trying to fix them immediately. Often the calming effect of what you have already takes time to flow through to them so they start to see things for themselves.

As far as throwing things and making a mess, you are right leave it short term and address it once things have calmed down, rather than clean up whilst the dysregulation is still happening. Otherwise in his mind it won't register the full extend of it really happening.

Sometimes cleaning up together after an episode works best as it is less accusatory and they can still feel ownership of it, maybe even embarrassment. The object is to try to find the less confront way to prevent it happening again rather than blame making over that particular incident.

You are correct, making boundaries over medications would be wrong at this stage as it is an as yet unproven answer to anything, so any fears over them can be real and you can't say otherwise.

As far as kids being exposed to 'episodes', dont overlook the fact that they  can see when it is becoming less frequent. Kids can often see progress more readily than you, and shrug it off as ":)ads getting better". Its when it is trending the other way, or not at all, that it does real harm. You are not being seen to be walked over or allowing it to happen, it will be seen that you are a lot stronger and taking more control of situations, but sometimes it happens and you can't control everything, thats life.

I missed this the first time through -- I was re-reading this post trying to find good 'nuggets' from the discussions.

Yes.  My husband realized back in July that laying a hand on me was not an option any more.  He was physical with me a few times over the years but it was more of a 'power play' than anything.  In October 2012 I called the police on him one morning because his behavior was hanging on a thread and I feared things were about to go south.  To be honest, that was really the beginning of our journey.  I was clear with the police that I was not reporting anything but that they better get their butts out here and have a chat with my husband before he did something that he would regret.  In July, I called the police on him again.  :)idn't report him (I only used them as a tool to get things back on track) - but made it abundantly clear to my husband that physical behavior would NO LONGER BE TOLERATED.  I basically told him that I love him but I am not a victim and therefore I was going to stop acting like one.  It would break my heart because I think it would finish him, but he knows that I'll have him 'locked up' without hesitation.


I think that it can feel hurtful and humiliating if you allow it to be.  I tell myself that in fact... .its not about me... .its about him.  In other words, he destroys his surroundings because he is hating himself.  Sometimes I have to 'con' myself into forgetting all the hatred that he harbors during a dyregulation just to get through it without resentment.  It is what it is.

Thanks for the validation and tips waverider.  Very good points.  Wish I had more time to comment :)

What a terrific, inventive idea from waverider: if your husband will participate in clean up when he has calmed down, that seems like a genuine game-changer. A real owning, or at least "co-owning" of the situation.

I'd like to dispute the following idea, though, at least as far as young kids are concerned:


You might be hard pressed to find anyone who experienced being a small child with a scary dad who would agree with this statement. (And Dr. Phil definitely would disagree: according to him, each episode of witnessing out-of-control parental anger "changes who a child is." Sorry for the T.V. psychology, but I think your son's emotional development needs an advocate here too. You cannot know the damage until much later . . . .

Good for you, great for you |iiii on the no-DV boundary. 

This is presuming of course that the outburst are not physical, or directed at the kids and are lessoning compared to what they used to be. ie things are getting better. It is a judgement call of course, but you are not going to completely transform any situation overnight. Pushing too hard can be counter productive, as you then stop being on the same side and are once again projected as a "controlling tyrant' and cycle back to square one.

In my RS projecting anger and blame onto everyone around was a major issue. To stop that it was necessary to work together so my partner could own what she was doing. Blanket boundaries simply dug the denial deeper. Allowing the emotions to come out as "outbursts' as that was the only way she knew of communicating them, and rather then expecting an argument/boundaries, they started to self extinguish as they were met with no drama.

The consequences of this is that now when these 'BPD  moments' happen they are always acted in, there is no projection of anger or conflict onto me or the kids now, ever. In fact whenever there is a heated conflict it is nearly always started by me...

Normal folks argue and fight, it is too easy to try and overcompensate too quickly and make the changes impossible for them to keep up with.

This is the case around my son. 

The last couple of days have pretty tough.  Pretty much been one steady dyregulation after another.  Last night he triggered for the first time at night in a long time.  I had made meatloaf for dinner (checked with him before doing it) and then right before dinner he said I'm not eating the dinner you made because the onions and garlic are going to make me sick.  I said "gosh that's frustrating because I had consulted you on dinner beforehand"  he went into a speech about how I should try living in his shoes and being him for 5 minutes because I wouldn't be able to handle it and basically said it made him angry that I was frustrated with the situation because it was far worse to be in his shoes.

I validated but he flew off the emotional cliff (nothing abusive - just the YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT me stuff).  I walked away because even me being there was a trigger but that seemed to make him more angry.  He said that each time I disrespect him by ignoring his needs - he dies a little more inside.  I said 'it must be really hard feeling that way.'  And he went into - someday I will walk out and never come back.

He started to raise his voice and I said 'you're scaring me and if you aren't careful you will scare our son.'  He told me that he'd 'show me' and then said 'I am going to cut [my new jacket in half as in my husband's own jacket] and show you.'  I just walked away and then he pretended to destroy his jacket and talked about how he had destroyed it and then went downstairs to hide.

This morning he was dyregulated as well.  He just has nothing to focus on but the hate for himself right now.

If unaddressed he will slide into a mess so I think that I have to say something to him about finding something to be involved in or maybe taking some time to go home because I'm not going to expose our son to this on a daily basis.

Hooray, hero mom!

I agree with your husband that it's really, really tough to be "them." I have no clue how my father endured the misery that was his emotional life. But I do know that he wasn't able to do it without cost to his children. It's the saddest situation ever. :'(

You are doing well and supporting him to find a new outlet to occupy his mind is right,but ultimately you can't make him the desire has to come from himself.

Sounds like his dysrelating is more acting in than it used to. The less he is directing it solely at you, the less you will react badly and the more genuinely supportive you can be. It is progress in the right direction, albeit slowly.

How does it make you feel? Is it more frustration than anger and resentment?

Does your son have any opinions on what is happening?

Hi Waverider,

Yes even though he is dyregulating quite regularly at the moment, I do see less of the dyregulations aimed at me (at least for the moment).  Yesterday he flew into a tirade and shut himself in our room.  I could hear him talking loudly to himself but not to me or our son and he was far enough away neither of us could hear what he was saying. 

My son can tell that daddy is out of sorts at the moment.  When my husband starts to dyregulate he sort of tip toes away and then you hear his start up a game or playing in another room.  I think that he is mimicking my behavior (quiet escape and then trying to shake off the negative cloud of emotional by distracting myself with something fun).  I am worried that he had picked up on a particular swear word that my husband uses a lot when he's not in a good spot.  We are ignoring that word for the moment and my husband says that he needs to make a concerted effort to not 'bare his @ss in front of our son' because he recognizes that it isn't healthy.

So far there are less rages in this period and there is significantly less verbal and emotional abuse than previous stressful periods.  This morning I got out of the house with two negative comments (both about my choice of what to wear to work).  Nothing abusive was said so I think that mostly I have to move on and disconnect.  Sure I would like my husband to be proud and supportive as I am on my way out the door, but that is not my reality at the moment.

I am mostly frustrated and a bit sad (not angry or resentful) because I know exactly what he needs to do to get employed (source of much of his frustrations) but his anxiety is virtually debilitating and I have offered help but is was declined.  I know that he has to do this himself and I have moments of real fear (will he go over an edge and not come back).  I am trying to embrace it for what it is and keep trudging along.  I suggested some alternative therapy yesterday which might help him and was told point blank that he's not interested.  He's focused on pulling himself out of this rut mostly alone and that is scary at times.

The fear that I am experiencing has manifested itself in nightmares of his rages and in each of those nightmares I calmly enforce boundaries and walk away while he screams for me to come back.

He has mentioned going home a few times and I think that would be good right now.  We still have quite a bit of stuff that needs to be done around the house to get ready for winter and on 'good days' he focuses on that and he's not dyregulated.

This really does seem to be a "new you," allibaba. The sage observation from emeritus advisor unitedfornow that "nothing changes without  changes" is playing itself out, isn't it? It's got to be scary that there's no way of knowing all the changes to come. You must feel it, though--that you are now marching down the solid path toward stability for yourself and for your son.

And maybe even for your husband, as painful as it is for him at this time of self-doubt.

(I can't help but feel amused recognition about your son's precocious knowledge of swear words. I think my mom got a huge shock back around 1957 from a report on my unusual vocabulary after I had a first playdate with one of the daughters of a neighboring Catholic family. On the plus side, much later than that, I scored in the 98th percentile on the "verbal" portion of the GRE exam. And I don't even think there was a section on "cursing like a sailor." )

Hi KateCat,

Thanks for the little chuckle on swear words.  In a way, I am glad that at 18 months my son is mimicking his dad's language because he is like a mirror for my husband.  I don't like it but I think that the healthier that my husband gets now, the less issues we'll have with our son down the road.  You can easily 'unteach' swear words at this early stage because they don't mean anything to a toddler.  Even though it is painful for my husband to see, my husband is a good man and its better that he see the raw impacts of his behavior as that may be a catalyst to get him past his own self-hate into action.

I think that the fear is certainly tied to having no control of the outcome of this journey and the clear knowledge that my husband has to make his own choices.  The self-doubt is the internal pull that wants me to go into full blown crisis aversion mode (scurrying around, panicking, trying to find him work, trying to sooth him and make him 'happy'when I know that only my husband can walk his own path and doing these things will keep him from taking his own action.

I do feel that I am gaining traction on this 'road to recovery' and my son and I will experience more stability.

At this point I am doing what is right for us and I am praying for my husband to find his way

I think Marsha Linehan, the pioneering developer of DBT therapy (and a recovered borderline herself) reminds everyone that adults get to choose their actions for themselves, even if the choice includes refusing therapy. And I think she adds, "Sorry!"

(Kids' words are so revealing. The first time I met my then-six-year-old niece in person, it was at her family's lovely lakeside home in Stamford, Connecticut. Instead of saying things like "This is crap!" like I did at that age, the first thing this little girl said to me was, "I'm having lunch at my friend's club today." And then I too was a bit dumbstruck at the things that emerge from the mouths of babes.)

I think you are just witnessing the necessary journey a person with this disorder needs to go through on their journey to self improvement.

You have effectively cut off projection as a means of effective soothing, or buck passing. At first this will result in a new type of dysregulation by bottling it up with themselves, so yes this can create more frequent stress with non of the usual outlet available. They are forced to acknowledge the severity of their problems. Starting to acknowledge the collateral damage, in this case on your son, is also self awareness.

At first it is natural for then to try to "go it alone". Until they have exhausted this option they wont turn to outside help, or at least with enough commitment to stick at it.

Focus mainly on not being drawn into unnecessarily conflict as that just becomes a distraction and an avenue to regress into projection and avoidance of their real issues.

|iiii

Waverider,


I really needed this reminder last night.  It was timely.  Thank you.  He spent the entire day laying on the couch depressed yesterday.  Normally this happens after he rages at me.  This time he didn't rage he went straight to stage 2 (I hate myself, I hate my life).


YES!  I see this clearly.  Yesterday he broke his own mobile phone.  I did not even ask about why or how and I did not offer to go get him a new one.  None of our situations in the past 3 days have been aggression towards me and the moments that they were I just would not accept it.  I would not accept responsibility where it was not mine.  This morning he tried to tell me that he will never find a 'real' job because I am terrible at supporting him because I didn't buy his cereal yesterday and I don't keep enough food in the house.

I replied 'I am really sorry to hear that you feel that way, but you have a car and money you can either go to the grocery store if the food that I am buying is not adequate.  If you know that we are out of something, I will be happy to pick it up for you.  Just give me a call and ask me to go get it.   I thought that he was going to EXPLODE he was so mad.  He went into our bedroom and started screaming "I hate you.  I f hate you."  Note:  he walked away from me to lose it.  This is progress.

The other day when he flipped out about the milk and I told him that I would only take 50% responsibility for the milk being empty because there are 2 adults in the house... .well guess what... .he started filling the milk container for the first time in our marriage.  Woo hoo.


Thank you, thank you, thank you.  This is a scary time for me and I appreciate this very much.

OK, now this is really, really reminding me of Steph's postings of her husband's journey to therapy.

It's been a while since I've read her story, but as I recall, her husband was/is a very, very high functioning person in his professional life. Prominent in his field. He had also come to a point where he was clearly self-harming: hurling himself out of cars, attempting suicide, etc. Self harming stuff reminiscent of that of teenage girls with BPD.

And here's the astounding part, at least to me. He somehow mustered the determination and self-acceptance to attend months and even years, I think, of DBT training. And also the courage to be one of a group of DBT patients, doing DBT group work. And these other people in his group were indeed mostly female.

According to Steph, her husband was truly BPD. BPD without additional comorbidities. (No sex addiction, for instance. And no alcoholism, at least as far as I recall.) According to Steph, he is completely recovered, following his total commitment to therapy. And, yes, following a significant period of therapeutic separation for the two of them.

Some people on this forum have commented that the one truly convincing tale of "recovery" in this online community is the story of Steph and her husband. It's well worth exploring, as your husband seems to have come commonalities with hers.

I know you can't make him do it, and I know you probably can't even show him the "Steph example" directly. 

My husband does have some co-morbidity (he is probably slightly bipolar, definitely OCD but minor as a coping mechanism, and some anxiety).  I do think that he is an excellent candidate for true recovery.  He is one of the STRONGEST people I know and I truly respect him as a human being despite his mental illness.  There have been so many times in my life where I have watched my husband do the right thing and thought WOW I'm not sure that I could have done that myself.  I have literally watched him put himself in physical danger to save someone else's life.  He is a truly courageous man.  Once he comes out of the current depression I am going to talk to him about treatment again.

I just got a call from my husband saying that he has decided that he will not work ever again (this is what is causing his stress) - I told him that if he changes his mind that I will be happy to support him in his search for work.  I could tell by his voice that he's been crying.  He said that he is selling our house in the Spring and moving to Costa Rica.  He said that nothing has worked out for him since his move to Canada and that he feels completely unsupported by me.  He said that I can come with him or not, that he doesn't care but that if he's going to sit around and do nothing then he's do it someplace warm where he can be happy.  He said that he never has any fun with me and that he is tired of waiting for a good life with me.

I only said "It must be really awful feeling that way" and he hung up on me.

I didn't call him back.  Obviously I am not moving to Costa Rica (changing the scene again).  I don't believe that he is really moving.  He is just trying desperately for a way out of feeling like he does.

When he comes out of this cycle I am going to let him know that:

I am behind him 100% (this weekend he shared the fear that I would leave him because of his mood swings.  I told him that I would only leave him physically if I felt like myself, our son, or the dogs were in danger.  I told him that even when he's in a bad place mentally that I consider that we are fighting the battle of his mental illness together as a team and that he is not alone.)

That I can't imagine being where he is at the moment.  That I would do anything to take away his pain but I don't have that power.

That his decision not to pursue treatment is his but that there is a 80% success rate for people that seek treatment and stick with it.  That I truly believe that our lives can be restored to sanity but that only he can make that huge step.

Steph's husband attended 3 years of DBT before he was 'cured of BPD'.  Part of the reason that my husband is such a good candidate for finding a program and sticking to it is that he extremely regimented.  Once he gets into a pattern and accepts that pattern and routine, he is really excellent at sticking with it.  His diabetes doctor says that in her 40 yrs of practice she has NEVER seen a diabetic with such excellent blood sugars (I was there.  I heard her.)  His Rheumatoid doctor said that he could be a 'posterchild' for recovery from this debilitating disease.  Its not my husband's first time fighting a hard battle.  He recovered from a cocaine addiction 30 yrs ago and went to university and became a productive member of society and never looked back.

I believe that for my husband to find peace he needs to regularly attend DBT, he needs to go 100% gluten free and he may need minor medication for the bipolar.  I know that none of this is cut and dry and that it would be a long and painful process but my husband has a HUGE amount of self-awareness therefore it makes him a good candidate for recovery.

LIGHTBULB  :light:   :light:    :light:    :light:    :light:  :light:   :light:

I am going to go seek DBT therapy including biofeedback.  I will be an example to him.  It cannot hurt and knowing that I grew up in a BPD family (mom was BPD) with an alcoholic father... .I have many issues that could be addressed with this sort of therapy.  

Thanks for bearing with me here guys.  I will go regularly and show him that there is nothing to be scared of!  If nothing else, I can be a better example to my husband.

If Steph ever reads your story, she will be very proud of you.  |iiii I remember how open she was about her own struggles and her "own side of the street." Not many people can be as courageous as she has been and as you are being.

That's  a good idea, if nothing else it will help reinforce a lot of the self awareness you are already developing...

Sounds like your hubby has that "stubborn switch" either stuck on or off. My partner is the opposite with a fickle switch, can't stick to anything. I have given up pushing for therapy, as she gives up everything after a couple of visits. This applies to everything not just therapy.

Those of us following you here are definitely proud of you too!   |iiii

Thanks for the support guys.

Not a good day in the house this morning.  He picked a fight over the STUPIDEST thing.  The fact that my tablet doesn't have the weather network application and therefore I am lazy and can't manage my life.  He then asked me if I had gotten his workout vitamins.  I said no, I went twice and then I sent you a message saying that it was your responsibility to find some as the place was out.  He had responded OK.  He said "See you are a disaster, you can't manage your life, how am I supposed to get better?"

I don't think that I have to tell you all that I'm not a disaster, I make good money and have a profession career.  I am the primary caregiver for our son.  I do all the work with the dogs as well as primary responsibility for inside the house and for meals, laundry, etc.

He said.  Starting next week, I am getting rid of one dog per week until you get your life under control (believe me if it had been about the dogs, they would have been gone long ago).  I said, no.  The dogs aren't going anywhere - so he opened the front door and tried to chase off our big dog   I grabbed my big puppy and put him in the car.  Bless the poor dog, he was looking at me like 'why is daddy telling me to go away?'

He said that there is NO WAY THAT I CAN RECOVER when you are such a disaster.  I said, listen, I have my issues but:

And then went into SET about how I adore him and I understand that he's going through a tough time now but that what he's doing isn't working and that he needs to do something different.  I said therapy, medication, temporary separation but he needs help.  

He started screaming profanities at me.

I said, husband I love you but staying on the current path isn't good and you promised in July that you would actively pursue treatment and then you didn't.  I said that I deserve a better life than this, he deserves a better life than this and so does our son.  He said f u f u.  You deserved everything you got in July and your gone it is clear to me now that you care more about the dogs than me.  I said that isn't true.  He said dogs will now start to disappear, you better watch yourself, and your stuff will be on the side of the road.  I said, if dogs go missing, if you lay a hand on me, or if my stuff leaves this house.  I will call the police without hesitation.  I told him that I have many issues but that they were not open for discussion until he got help.  He said that I am part of the problem and do nothing for myself.  I told him (as I have told him before) that I am getting treatment but that is not a subject for discussion.  He said 'see we don't have a relationship.  you don't share you are getting help.'  (I had told him).  He reiterated that I am his only problem and I replied that if I am his only issue then he can pursue a divorce but I will not.

I took the two big dogs to the local kennel (they LOVE it there) and asked them to keep the dogs for a few days.  

And I am very sad this morning but I am worried that if he doesn't get treatment and keeps going down this path that suicide attempt or other destructive behavior will start.  I tried for things not to come to a head but he brought them there and when he threatened to get rid of dogs or kick me out of the house... .I had to take a stand.  

I don't know what is going to happen today.  He called later to say that I do deserve better and so does he.  Once again he tried to explain that he needs me to manage our lives better because he is very sick and I said, I am doing a lot of things to get better myself but you need help.  He said 'see its always about me and my problems' you don't give a s about me and hung up on me.

I don't know today what will happen but I am to the point where if I need to, I will kick him out or pursue a separation.  Not because I don't care about him but BECAUSE I DO CARE SO DESPERATELY about him.

I tried over and over again to validate and defuse the situation.  Nothing worked - he just brought the whole thing to a head

Allibaba, 

Waverider,

I really took on board your thoughts earlier this week about not pushing my 'agenda' (which is that he needs intensive treatment) too hard.  But I feel like I got myself backed into a corner.  

I tried to disengage when he demanded that we get rid of the dogs, but then he started trying to chase them out of the house.

I know that I wasn't in control of the situation this morning (other than trying to be calm and react appropriately).

I didn't want to get into a spot where it was 'my way or the highway' but I just didn't feel like I got much of an option

One thing that is different is that I am not scared of him anymore.  I am not scared of him hurting me.  I am not scared of him leaving and I don't feel trapped.  Its very very different.  I didn't get an adrenaline dump when he started ramping things up.  I wasn't even shaking.  I grabbed the big dog (already had keys in my pocket and my purse because he was acting nutty) and our son and put him in the car.  I went back into the house to have the SET discussion.  So our son missed most of it.

SIGH

LOL thanks!

And all of a sudden I am just really tired.  I have so much sadness in my heart that my husband who is so willing to acknowledge that he's sick is so UNWILLING to do something about it.    I do know that this is his journey and I accept it but I am really feeling the sadness of today.  :'( I didn't expect the drama (though I am ready almost any morning).

His family is almost accusatory to me that he needs help and that I haven't FORCED him to get it.  Um yeah - I don't have that power guys and I'm definitely not going to take that on.

And the irony is that he is posting this kind of stuff on facebook (obviously directed at me)

“There comes a time in your life, when you walk away from all the drama and people who create it. You surround yourself with people who make you laugh. Forget the bad, and focus on the good. Love the people who treat you right, pray for the ones who don't. Life is too short to be anything but happy. Falling down is a part of life, getting back up is living.”

I think you did good.

Mentioning the treatment was handled ok, as it can't be ignored, but it wasn't used to trigger this. Boundaries are only for when they are encroached on, not as leverage to make someone do something or as a threat

Ultimately you can't control or fix him. The fact that you were not terrified shows you are doing a good job of fixing you. You are doing nothing to trigger this.

Removing the dogs and your son from immediate threat was also good to, that way you removed the potential to get side tracked with immediate leverage.

Just be careful you dont try to start having logical discussions when he has gone into dysregulation mode, it will be wasted

It is all very draining and tiring no matter how you handle it.

Yes it hasn't been easy at all.  Thanks for confirming that you think that I handled the situation with talking about getting treatment ok.  The message was relayed loud and clear and that is what is important (not that he acts on it).

The big dogs are still in 'doggy daycare'.  Each time that my son asked for them last night, my husband would say "they are gone now" and I would say "they aren't here right now buddy."

Last night (after my son went to bed) my husband came and asked me if I wanted to have sex (not uncommon).  I said sure if its with my husband, no if its the guy who wants to divorce me.  He stormed off saying 'I don't need you.'  He came back an hour later and asked again.  I replied the same and he said 'no its the guy who loves you.'  This is new for me.  I used to say 'yes' unconditionally no matter how badly he was treated me and I felt bad about it.

This morning he's completely on edge again picking on the STUPIDEST things.  Things that there is NO way we have ever discussed.  I managed to avoid the conflicts.  When he mentioned that he never wanted to see those dogs again I said "well they are at the kennels because I respect the fact that you are stressed out but they are not staying there."

I had promised my husband that I would buy him 2 sweatshirts on Wednesday (when I got paid) but yesterday I went to do it and our credit card was declined.  In fact it was well over its limit.  When I looked, he had been shopping all last week.  He called me at work this morning to ask if I had bought the sweatshirts yesterday like I promised.  I said no, I tried but the card was declined.  Since you decided to spend the money on something else I couldn't afford them.  He got angry and said that he's going down to the bank to pull money off of our personal line of credit to pay off the credit card so that he can continue shopping and hung up on me.  Without him working and with him shopping all the time, he is going to cause financial hardship for us if I'm not careful.  In the first several years of his true disorder I spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to make him happy.  I'm not kidding you.  I even bought him a sportscar!  Silly silly me.  Regardless we'll be ok though.  We have very little debt and he doesn't have much control over our finances - I only added him to our line of credit to make sure that he felt a part of our financial life (again silly me) but I have separate bank accounts and can move our money (which I earn) across when he is dyregulated.

I am so very tired this morning but at least feel at peace that I am standing up for myself and am no longer a doormat.

Your poor son!

I guess I'm seeing your husband now coming at you with abuse from all angles: emotional, financial, sexual . . . and psychological abuse of your son, just to get you in line as soon as he can.

Perhaps I am over reactive, as the adult child of a scary father, and waverider or another advisor can jump in here and set me straight. But I think you need some outside help right now. Or temporary removal of your husband from the home until he can choose professional assistance. 

He's definitely trying a hand at getting me 'back under his control'.  My son is less than 2 at the moment so he didn't understand the "they are gone now" comment.  If he did I would have reacted more strongly.  As it was I didn't react at all.  He's mad as a hornet this morning that I didn't buy him his sweatshirts... .but seriously he spent $1,000 last week on crap (first time in a long time).

As for outside help, I spoke to an attorney back in June to understand my options.  She's really calm and sensible and she's not your typical divorce attorney.  I really loved her.  I got a background on the options back then and wanted to get more details now.

I had an appt with her this morning to discuss the current state of affairs and my options under the circumstances.  Knowledge is power.  My jurisdiction is ZERO tolerance on domestic violence or abuse (whether physical or not).  That helps a lot.  She understands clearly that my husband is suffering from mental illness (he's not just a nasty abusive man).  I explained to her some of the work that I have done on boundaries and we agreed (as was always the plan) that in the case of anything physical, I will call the police.  The impact is that he would be charged, removed from the home and a mandatory restraining order would be put in place.  Because he has no history of criminal activity and there are mental health concerns, the likely impact would be diversion (he would be forced to live outside the home and get treatment/ anger management/ etc).  Alternatively he would likely be convicted of something criminal.  Obviously this isn't ideal but if we go down this road, he chose it, not me.

The last week has been HELL for me and I am tired.  My son knows something is wrong but he's still rolling along.  Basically I am watching him closely.  The minute that he starts to show the signs of stress, I will ask my husband to leave the house.  If he declines, my son and I will move to somewhere else temporarily while I file for a motion of exclusive possession of the house on the basis of stability for our son and the fact that my husband is suffering from mental illness and exposure to his behavior long-term will be dangerous to his psychological welfare.  It would take about 2 - 3 weeks and I would have sole custody during that time.  I could stop this process at any time and allow him back in the house if I chose to (i.e. after effectively participating in a therapeutic separation where we are both getting treatment).

These are obviously extreme measures but these are extreme times.  I just wanted to make sure that my toolkit was full and ready for use.

I will not continue to bug you, allibaba, after giving this final personal impression:

You're at the point right now where action is needed.

(If you have a very strong stomach, invite some of the people who post on the forums for adult children of borderline parents to weigh in on how much stress your son is under at this time. . . . And maybe ask some of them for their stories about family pets.)

You are trying so hard and so valiantly. May God be with you.

And just to be very very clear, there has never been any sexual abuse in our relationship.  Period.

Emotional, psychological, financial - yes

Sexual - no

DONE.  I do have a strong stomach and I want all input.

I apologize for mentioning "sexual abuse." I agree this is much better understood as "codependence" or "caretaking" or "FOG" or something other than "sexual abuse":


Allibaba, you astound me once again! You are really heroic for asking for the feedback you have just requested.

What a woman.  |iiii

Well at the end of the day, no matter what happens to my relationship, I'll be better and healthier for it.

I have just signed up to start DBT with biofeedback.  Weeeeeee

*mod*

We've reached our four page limit on this topic, and allibaba's last post looks like a good place to lock things up.  Feel free to start a new topic to continue the discussion.