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I'm done. Completely drained. Now I am starting to feel angry and that is soemthing I just do not usually feel.  Last night I missed her phone calls for 12 mins. I was in the woods hunting trying to pick up my gear and ead home. The phone was on silent. She was upset. She knew where I was. I told her. even took a picture before it got dark. Then I come home and I find out I out my t-shirt on insideout when I put it on inthe dark. So what does all of this mean... .I was cheating obviously.  Also she tells me I have a facebook account I am hidding. I explained I don't then looked it up and found there are more than 1 person with my name with facebook pages. I said I can't be all these people.

So I know logic can't work so what am I left with. Compassion? I think its gone. I wanted t leave last night. even put on my coat to go. 2 different times. I stopped myself. Why I so wanted to just drive away. I still so. It was firswt aggreed that I pack up my stuff this afternoon. Then my dumb mouth opens up and all of a sudden i am accepting every demand she gives. I don't want to. She is demanding that I bring her to work and show her around and that is where I hide everyting. She said she needs to have control of that because that is the only thing she can't see or be able to do anything about. Plus I have to quite because she can't control if she is allowed to go in the building. Which she can not get in.

Cipher - DON'T CAVE!  She doesn't belong meddling in your professional life.

It won't help her.  Giving in to her demands will only result in her making more demands and life being more and more uncomfortable for you.

Validate her and then move on.

What can you do to take a break?  How about going hunting without your cell phone or that it will be turned off.  State in advance that you will be gone for 3 hrs and it won't be on so she won't be able to get in touch with you.

It may be better (for you long term) to stand up to her and give her the decision to end your relationship if she won't get on board with the healthier you... .then to run and never resolve what is going on inside of you.

Hi Cipher

I can so relate! All the control stuff and the accusations and mistrust.

You may feel uncomfortable with anger, in your situation its good to have it. It makes you stronger.

Say hello to the thoughts about leaving. Its okay to have it. Even if you don't do it now. You are thinking about it.

What about each day at least one time saying NO? No honey I don't do that. Little things - for practicing. 

I agree that the anger here is healthy Cipher.  You can use it to motivate you - whether to make changes within your relationship or to leave your relationship... .whatever turns out to be the best decision for you :)

Cypher,

Sorry you're going through this.  I can relate.  In my case I've often said to myself... .I'm not going on the merry go round anymore.  Anger also makes me uncomfortable, and fighting off my own anger even moreso.

One way or the other, whether trying to maintain the relationship and learning to say no in the calmest, least hurtful and best way I can, or by leaving it if necessary I had to decide it was going to stop. 

Going along with demands that aren't warranted or comfortable to you are part of being on the merry go round or 'roller coaster', and the BPD partner is leading the dance. 

As I've seen 123Phoebe say to others here on the board (paraphrasing), hold on dearly to your truth and your own rational reality.  It's the only way. 

Cipher - I know how you feel because I've been there myself.  I have a BPDex that once tried to tell me I had to call her when I was at work every hour, call her when I'm leaving, call her when I'm 1/2 way home, etc.  The level of control they try to exert is unreal.

Here's the thing - the more you give, the more they will take.  You can never give enough.  You can never give in to enough.  There will always be a new demand that will escalate their control further.

Her telling you that you have to quit because she can't get into the office?  This is so out of line to even think it.

I know on this site, we usually try to not do too much "you need to do x, y, z... ." even when it's real clear to the readers here, and instead try to let posters come to their own conclusions and find their own way.  But seriously man, you will not ever be able to appease her adequately.  She will continue to push things farther.  I can feel how drained you are from all this in your posts.  I've been there myself.  The only way out of your predicament is tell her NO, and let her rant and rage.  You can't control what she does, or how she does it.  You can only control yourself.  And the way out for you is to tell her no and let go of how she will react.  Let it be on her.  

Cipher:  First, I agree with the others about not giving in to her demands.  We all know that only provides temporary soothing for her and ultimately makes the situation worse because 1) it enables/encourages her ridiculous behavior, ensuring more of the same in the future, and 2) it sacrifices your sense of reality, individual rights, and self-worth on the altar of BPD.  I would encourage you to try to validate her feelings without agreeing with her warped “reality” and demands, and take a time-out when she becomes abusive.  

Another thing I plan to experiment with soon is redirecting my wife when she starts to veer away from talking about her feelings and begins to blame/abuse me instead.  Something along the lines of, “Let’s pause for a second.  You are important to me, and I really care about your feelings, and I want to be here for you to work through these things together.  It’s okay for you to feel what you feel – you don’t have to justify your feelings to me b/c I accept you just as you are.  This conversation is starting to delve into topics we have already discussed at length, and I am starting to feel blamed and attacked, which hurts me.  If the conversation continues to go this way, I will need to take a time out and pick it up again later when things are calmer, but I would prefer to be able to stay here with you and really listen to what you are feeling.  Just a minute ago you were talking about your fear of abandonment and how that affects you – could you tell me more about that?”

I’m sure I’ll get a chance to try this soon, and I will try to remember to report on how it goes.


This type of behavior sounds like JADE on your part.  It typically does not help.



Enabling her unhealthy controlling tendencies will just make things worse in the long run and might hurt your career.

Hang in there, Cipher.  None of this is easy.  I encourage you to stand up for yourself and your reality.  If you are not pleased with how things are going, the only sane action you can take is for you to start doing things differently in the future.  You can’t keep responding the same way and expect for things to get better.

Cipher,

I remember those days.  They were horrifiying b/c my SO had his line of suspicious questioning down to a science.  He learned from his father:  a narcissistic, antisocial, meth-freak who intermittently interregated my SO or told him he couldn't trust anyone.  Combine that with my codependent sensitivity to criticism, and I was a hot mess.

First you have to start with this:




Then do this:





This is awesome wrongturn.  If you don't JADE, which will be easier if you know your truth, and use the tools you should hopefully see some improvement.  It sounds like she is going to have a mother of a tantrum before the improvement though, so get ready.  If you do the tools very repetitively while staying emotionally calm (an emotional leader), you will build your confidence.  

If she remains abusive after you have tried all you can, then you have to kind of have the conversation with yourself about what kind of relationship can you tolerate, pros vs. cons, what are you getting out of it, ":)o I radically accept this relationship as it is right now?".

Good luck and take care :)

The word "no" is okay to say.*  It might be your best friend.


*prefacing it in SET or whatever tools to smooth out the edges.

This is really good stuff... .at the beginning of learning about boundaries you might not be able to get all of this out (at least I wouldn't have been able to).  I found at the beginning, I had to keep it really, really simple.  "I don't feel comfortable with continuing this conversation right now."  "No, I'm sorry I can't do that."  "I need to leave the house before I say something that I might regret."

Maybe prefaced with "I love you very much."

Hey thanks to everyone. It was one heck of a bumpy weekend. I made huge mistaek in her eyes by not responding to the phone Saturday morning while I was int he woods hunting. It was on silent and I had my hads full of my things walking out of the woods.  I replied when i got to the car. It was only 20 to 25 mins but that was 19 to 24 mins too long for her. I told her I would try to respond when I could and explained the situation... .I recieved a lecture about how it does not matter what the situation is or the circumstances. When she calls or texts she must have an answer. Otherwise she thinks I am cheating.

Oh the new thing is 'I need proof".  She wants physical proof of things that I can not. Can i prove that I didn't know the phone went off? Can I prove my habds were full and couldn't text her back? Can I prove that my shirt was put on in the dark inside out and that does not prove I had an afair with anyone?  No. She wants actions from me to help her trust me. I don't know what that looks like other than texting and just saying and doing what I meen to say and do. I asked her what would a timeline look like for you to trust me... .She says 6 months of her never having to ask me or remind me that I wasn't following through .


Something i said to her that got throught though. I said I realize that ther eare not simple or small issues. Everything is a big deal, Everything is critical. For her that hit home. For me that confirmed that I have fallen too far down the hole of giving in to everything. My stomach tightens.

Cipher, I don't think that its a good idea to exhaust yourself trying to prove things to her EVEN IF YOU CAN.


Really?  Do you want to live like this? No matter how good you are - its never going to be enough.  I am positive of that.

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably say something like "I love you.  I understand that it causes you a great deal of stress of whether to trust me or not.  I really can't prove this to you but I haven't cheaten on you."

Demands ----> Disengage

Abuse ----> Boundaries

Once she starts making demands... .find a way to check out of the conversation.

Cipher, you can't prove a negative.  It's a lapse of logic.

lol see Cipher what you are up here?

Her demands are getting more unreasonable and paranoid too.  These things grow and I know I made these types of situations way worse by catering to it.

It's like a teacup with a hole in the bottom... .you can keep pouring but eventually you aren't going to have anything left in the pot.

There's some great advice in this thread.  There's another thread in the Workshop board about dealing with jealousy and paranoia from a partner and how to handle it.  Step by step, because these is a slippery slope.

How nice!  In just 6 months from now, she will finally trust you and life will be great for both of you! [**end sarcasm**]

If she has BPD, she still won't trust you after 6 months of compliant behavior, or 12 months, or 12 years, etc.  By definition, people with BPD have an extreme, pathological fear of abandonment and therefore do not have the ability to trust their spouses.  Regardless of what you do for the next 6 months, she still won't trust you because her trust level is determined by the disorder, not by the objective reality of your good behavior. 

There's also a high probability that if you agree to her demands for "earning" her trust, she will set you up to fail in some way so that she can continue to play the victim indefinitely.

Wrongturn1,

Do you have cameras in my house or something?

Are you following me?

In bold, I have found myself thinking this same thing... .

This has played out in my relationship on a constant basis. Constantly set up to fail. Trust never re-earned... .when will I learn... .

Proud_Dad: Yes indeed, the cameras I set up in your house are functioning perfectly... .hahaha  :)


But seriously, I hear a variation on this theme quite frequently from my uBPDw.  It goes something like this: "You are always hiding things from me.  I need you to be totally open and honest with me at all times so that I can trust you."  It's like they're all reading from the same script. 

Wrongturn,


I concur.

I am alway hiding something, lying, covering up, not bein honest about my thoughts, or something along those lines.

I just try not to fall into the "JADE trap" and give her my truth. That is all I have anymore... .

Yes I can agree to everythign everyone is saying about this. I can see it when more so after the fact. The heat of the moment is different. I have a new T apt for  coming up. We just can't keep going to our old one. Too far and she is too busy and our schedules do not fit.   So it will be just me first. Then the next both of us will attend. How or what do I say. I don't wan tot get painted as the person will say I am. I do own some issues especailly in the past. I hope the T wil be able to see whats going on over time but I wan to establish what is really going on sooner rather than later. 

These are good news. Be honest about the present. Tell him about your struggles, the same you are telling us. 

I planned on doing just that. I have felt in other sessions that I had that I never had enough time to get to everything. If they were every day then maybe. I shouldn't rush it though.

I am trying to set up a work related boundary. I asked what she feels she needs from me to feel better about the situation.

> I guess what I need from you is to be kept informed of what is going

> on in your world there.  I feel that you keep that part of your life

> "hidden" from me and that is where a lot of my insecurities come from.

>  Of course a good majority of that is because of what you did in March

> by going back to your home town and not telling me.  That was related to

> your work and maybe that is why I do not want you to be there.

> Because I associate you lying to me with your job... .does that make

> sense.  So I feel that this is a secret hidden part of you that you

> want me to have no part in so you can continue to hide stuff from me... .

So I replied:This work part I am not trying to hide anything from you. What

> I do at work is not any sort of secret. It is my job not yours. I do

> not have anything to hide what so ever.  I realize that what I have

> done back in March is very much directly affecting this and weighs

> heavily on how it makes you feel.  I can see why you might attach my

> job since it was for my job that I did that.  Again I want to assure

> you I am not hiding anything from you with my job or at my job. It's

> just my job and nothing more to it than that.

Now the retaliaon part from her: "it doesn't matter I should know everything that is going on with you there should not be any separation at all!  Please get that through your dang head!  If you don't understand that you should not be keeping anything from me and that nothing in our lives are separate then we will continue to have problems!

Argh!

In the solo session with the new T, it might be helpful to say something like the following (after giving a brief intro and bio of yourself of course):

"Most of the struggles in our relationship seem to revolve around certain longstanding aspects of her personality, such as:

1) Extreme fear of abandonment and jealousy,

2) Black and white thinking,

3) Impulsiveness,

4) Lacks a sense of identity,

5) Unstable mood and disproportionately angry,

6) Talks about suicide"

This way, while you're not actually coming out and saying she has BPD in the initial appointment, if the T is sharp, BPD will now be on the T's radar screen, and the T will hopefully be able to hone in on the disorder.  

An item to add to the list you mention to the new T: unhealthy enmeshment

Hint: Don't buy into her push for complete enmeshment; if nothing in your lives is separate, your problems will get even worse.

Well then tell the T that.  It might help to write it out beforehand so you can read from an outline in the session.  I've done that when visiting my T and had a lot to go over.

Also, it's okay to find yourself your own T, that is just for you, and that your BPD never gets to go see.  At one point, when I was with BPD, I didn't tell her I was seeing a T because I knew what the reaction would be.  I just scheduled sessions with him during work and took PTO time to do it.  His office is 5 minutes away and sometimes I was even able to schedule sessions for lunch hour.  

When she finally found out, she tried to stop me from going anymore, then it was attend with me, etc.  Anything to try to either control it or isolate me from it.  I just put my foot down and said, no it's for me and me only.  She extinction bursted, but it was something I needed to do, and since I was with her, it was something I had to go through, and would continue to be as long as I remained with her.

I also believe very strongly that any joint counseling should be done by a different T than your individual T, but that's a different story to tell some other time!

Good luck!  You're in better shape than you think or feel.  You realize there are issues and you need help solving them, and you are getting the help.  That's all anyone can ask of you.  

And I agree with Wrongturn1 that she is pushing for a level of enmeshment that is super unhealthy for both you and her.  It's hard to keep it straight in the heat of the moment, but remember holding your boundaries against this is also for her own good, even if she disagrees!

Great stuff thank you. I will try to spend a few minutes in my free time writing out a quick outline. My wife and I are planing on make out own for the background anyway. I will ad my personal feeling to it.  Agsain thanks for the good advice.

Cipher in your correspondence with her - you seem like you feel guilty.  Why do you feel guilty?  What do you need to do to be at peace with yourself?  Do you realize that the things that she asks you for are above and beyond what a spouse should have to do.

Tell me:  What does your ideal life seem like?  Can you tell me in a few sentences?

What happened in March?

I feel guilty from things I have done int he past. She holds on to them liek they are fresh as yesterday. I'm not proud of it but I have asked for forgiveness and apologized. I had looked at naked ladies on the internet a few times over the past 12 years of marriage. More so in the first 4 years. Thats where her insecurities and her untrusting feelings come from.

My ideal life consists of being able to not feel like I have to live with the guilt constantly and that I do not have to account for everyhtign I do at every second to make her feel comfortable.


Her greatest fear stemmed from some dreams before we got married that my parents would either try to convince me to leave and stay with them or that they would take me from her.  I had to go back to my home town to get ma copy of my birth certificate from the courthouse for a passporet for work. KNowing her fears I chose not to tell her I was going there and pretended I was at work. I got home sooner than I expected but was given the rest of the day off. She happend to stop home while on her way to a meeting which at that point she had never done. I was home and supposed to be at work. I had to tell her what I did. I was ashamed I couldn't tell her before but in my mind I was saving myself from an arguement. But I was caught in my lie so the arguement was worse. of course. Thast what happend in March.

Cipher: I can totally relate to this and had the same trouble in my own marriage 8 years ago - my uBPDw still brings this up as if it happened yesterday.  But I do want to offer a slight correction on what you said.  "Thats where her insecurities and her untrusting feelings come from." 

My view is that her insecurities and untrusting feelings result from having BPD, not from your behavior of periodically viewing naked ladies on the internet many years ago.  A mentally healthy wife would have likely been pissed the day she discovered it; then she would forgive and eventually trust you over a reasonable period of time after you asked forgiveness and changed your behavior.  But that's not how it goes with a BPD wife.  Since your wife has BPD, even if you had never seen another naked lady, she would be just as insecure and untrusting of you... .she would just find some other reason to blame her problems on you.

Hi Cipher,

Yes she is extreamly demanding and unreasonable. I understand how that feels   Sometimes I think we can go so far down the road of trying to appease them and stop the rages that it seems a long way back. I am certain we can all do it though eventually. Especially with using the tools. Which of the tools has worked best with her? Before you met her, did you feel as though you used to act differently? I know I certainly did before my bf.

As for the "hiding" suff. I have been told quite often that I am not honest and open about things too. My bf says he would be better towards me if I was more open. There is a lot of hypocrosy there believe me... .a LOT!

I am glad to hear that you are going to see a new T - might shake things up a bit. What do you think would happen to her and to you if you did leave, out of interest? I know you are on the fence about it as I have read lots of your posts.

And as an aside - as for the porn stuff. I personally have no problem with my bf looking at porn - he looks at it a few times a week. I just wanted to say that not all women think porn is a crime! Just to balance out against the reaction you got - I know everyone is different though.

Hope you are ok.

Ok Cipher, Personally I just want to say that if THIS IS IT... .then you should take a moment and try to forgive yourself.  My husband looks at porn ALL THE TIME (thanks connect for also being honest about this topic).  Its not a crime.  It may be against some peoples morals... .but that is a different story.  When my husband looks at naked woman on the internet - its not like he wants them more than me.  He's even visited a few strip clubs over the years.  This is also not a crime.  I can take that stance because I have self confidence.  It turns out that going to a strip club makes him feel more lonely and empty so its rare that he does it.  Deeply consider bringing up your guilt at therapy and really working on this.  If you get past your own guilty feelings, I think that it will be a lot easier to start to work on the issues with your wife and your interactions with her.


OK good start but... . Let's get past that.  Let's assume that you actually have control of your own life.  What do you want it to look like?

Example, I want to be successful at my job and want to be promoted to manager within 2 yrs.  I want to have enough concentration at work that I can actually work.  I also want to have a balanced personal and work life where my personal life includes doing something with the guys at least once a week, being able to go when I get invited to hockey games, and going hunting regularly during hunting season, and I want to be able to spend time with my parents at least once a month without feeling guilty about it.

Paint a picture for me.  Its ok to want a life for yourself.  Wanting a life for yourself does mean excluding your wife.  I don't mean to be blunt but your wife is a very sick woman emotionally.  :)o you know that in your soul?



Oh my goodness Cipher.  So you made a mistake.  Oh well.  We all make them.  I think that it was Grey Kitty who said that her insecurities stem from her illness, not from your 'bad behavior'.  Until you come to terms with your own past mistakes and forgive yourself... .there's very little likelihood that your wife will get past them either.  I really think that this could be a good place to start in therapy (I mean after you give the new therapist all the background).

|iiii  Hang in there buddy.  I know that you can do this.  I feel this current beneath your posts that says that you WILL NOT GET STUCK IN THIS CYCLE OF DYSFUNCTION.   |iiii

I actually a month or 2 ago started that very list. allibaba I want to thank you for keeping a interest in my post because the things you listed I have put on that list. I have not had the opportunities to do alot of the things in life I really like. I like politics. My wife actually shares a majority of my veiws on topics. I listen to talk radio. She makes fun of that. I listen to the "old man stations".

When it comes to the past I do know that she is holding on due to BPD. But the guilt she can lash out at me with takes root and after 13 years of it its not easy to always deflect. I am now in contact with an uncle that I have learned went through a similar thing with his ex wife. He even made the comment how good she is at creating and deflecting the guilt based on what I have mensioned to him.

I sure hope there is some progress made with this T. Another new thing that my wife is bringing up is having to me intimate more frequently and any sort of slight by my part is means for not lovig her or being affectionate. Of course that isn't the case at all. I can see her level of desparation has elevated over the last 6 months.

This is great stuff.  I am so glad that you are paying attention to yourself!  Now that you have the list find ways to incorporate things "that make you whole" into your life.  I had a typo in my post above.  I said that "Wanting a life for yourself does mean excluding your wife." It was actually a typo - I meant to say that "Wanting a life for yourself does NOT mean excluding your wife."  In other words, if you pursue your life and carve out your own space then your relationship with your wife may actually GET BETTER.  But that's up to her.  It may also do her head in... .but at this point it seems clear that you don't want to continue living the way that you are living so its worth it (at least that is what I gather from your posts).


Old habits die hard and you will feel really, really uncomfortable making changes.  Embrace that discomfort and understand it for what it is... .a good thing... .helping you make your life better.  I'm glad that you have made contact with your uncle.  Its good to have REAL world support and someone that you can talk to.


  Her desperation has elevated because she thinks that she is losing you.  If you can find ways to tell her that you love her (bring her flowers, maybe make her a nice dinner)... .if you do want a shot at keeping your marriage together you are also going to have to work hard to love her through this tough changing process.  If you let go of your own guilt and fear... .it may be replaced by true love.  That love won't fill her void... .you'll still see the push/pull but if you are more comfortable in yourself then it will be like water off a duck's back.

|iiii    |iiii    |iiii Hang in there.

 

PS Its been a pleasure to follow your posts... .I have already seen such a start to change within yourself and I can't wait to see the future.

I still encourage you to take time to contact your local police to understand the laws and what they think you should do and how you should protect yourself.  The day will come when you have to stand up for yourself and it may not be pretty.  Just remember you are doing this for YOU AND HER!

This is definitely not where her insecurities and lack of trust in you have come from.

These insecurities were already there long before you two even met.

My fiance has never caught me looking at porn but has found some old videos on a hard drive about 2 years ago.

She recently started an argument from nowhere over how I watch porn every night and it is such an insult to her.

You did nothing wrong Cipher. 

My brother's wfe caught him looking at porn once, she joked with him about it for a few weeks but never got angry and never held it against him.  That is a healthy reaction.

No need to feel guilty.


Her greatest fear is abandonment and therefore any time you spend with anyone else is perceived as a chance of you being persuaded to leave her, no matter who it is.

The dream thing has been used, whether is really happened or not, as a means to keep you isolated, especially from your parents who appear to know what you are going through.

I get the dream thing on weekly basis about other girls taking me away from her.  I pay no attention to it as I know what it is really about.

Again, you have nothing to feel guilty about here. 

The only thing you did not do was let her know exactly what you were doing for every minute of that particular day.

In a healthy relationship, a partner should be able to go to their parents without ever thinking to mention it except maybe to talk about it later that day.

I will join everyone else here in saying well done to you on your progress since joining here.  A world of difference.

I may have made some progress here and in my mind and my thoughts. I feel that I have not made as much of a leap in my actions. Hope that can follow a bit quicker that it has been. I know I should not beat my slef up fo rthe past especially when it really is not wrong just maybe not as pure as the wind driven snow. She can lay the guilt on thick. I have not found my own way to handle it yet so that it doesn't weigh so heavy on my heart and mind. No matter what I do it won't be enought... .understood... .so how do I begin to cut back to a heathier level without her being on my case... .well since that won't happen I just need a good way for me to deal with and handle that part of it becasue I won't stop the "madness".

You got it buddy!


Cipher, I knew in my heart the right approach for probably 2 years before I had the courage to really start working it.  What helped was two things 1.  The knowledge that I had to change or lose the relationship anyway (also having our son was a big part of this)

2.  Having the real practical support of the people on these boards.

Don't beat yourself up.  The one thing that I will say is something that Grey Kitty told me.  Boundaries are really only effective if you are consistent about them.  If you do them great one time and then let it slide the next, it will be a lot harder to affect change.  :)on't worry if you slip up though... .just get back on that horse. 

My recommendation is to start small.  Pick the most damaging behaviors first and start working on them.  For me it was VERBAL ABUSE.  I started with the fact that I would not be called names anymore and I would not be told that I am a piece of [insert expletive] anymore while I was killing myself for my husband.  That ended up rolling out to a whole lot of other things as my confidence grew.  

The timeline for me was probably 6 months between my start with my boundaries and my ability to completely stand up for myself. (it wasn't pretty in between by the way... .I got beat up... .I spent some time in a DV shelter... .and I called the police on him... .all my stuff got packed and put on the side of the road) I'm not there yet but initially there have been great benefits - my husband stopped the verbal abuse, no physical abuse, he's had to turn his attention to himself.  I can sleep better and I am becoming more aware of the areas that I need to work on.

Its simple... .but not even close to easy.  

No truer statement. Thanks alot.  |iiii

As a woman it always shocks me when women freak out about the porn thing.  If it isn't a porn addiction, it isn't informing your sex life negatively, and he don't abuse it why care if he gets his rocks off on porn.

I agree with others that these transgressions she's continuing to beat you with are about her abandonment fears.  

One thing I'd think about is addressing is when you've resolved and argument it doesn't get to used again, brought up again in the next round.  It's resolved.  You may want a boundary for that.

I agree with others here you have some viable stuff for couple counseling.  Keep it about what you want from your marriage and talk about behavior.  Keep the labels out.

What Alli said about intermittent reinforcement on boundaries is spot on.  It extends extinction bursts like the one your wife is going thru now with ll the demands.  You got to weather that big spike with them consistently.

It's exhausting tho.  I totally get why parents with a renegade teenager are so tired because its the similar situation.

It's like: I love you, you feel x that's a crappy way to feel, No I won't do that, I love you.  (on repeat thru it)


(http://www.gator1897.hostgator.com/~puckette/wp-content/uploads/extinction-burst2.gif)

GreenMango!

Your graph totally reflects my last 6 months... .  WOWSERS!

It scared me the first time!  Then I though okay that's what's going on and thankfully human behavior is pretty consistent and has a pattern, even if its an erratic one.

It's a graph similar to the one my therapist drew me when I was in my relationship getting therapy on how to handle things. ** the sticking point is if you cave at the height of that spike that becomes the new normal a person repeatedly goes to to get what they want.**

It helped to see it.  Its in the extinction burst workshop with other posts on how to handle it.  How other members tackle it.

Cipher it sounds like you are in the middle of one now.  Which isn't abnormal considering the changes you are making.  

Here's the link to the workshop: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

She is back to lookig fo rjobs everywhere because she does not like her job. Wants me to look to. I said it would have to be better than the one I have now to get me to move. Where she is looking again is not in an area that has a lot of potential for me.

Cipher if you like your job and don't want to leave, then don't look for a new job and don't leave.

If she insists, in your position given the issues you are dealing with, nobody would fault you to tell her to go ahead and find herself a new job and move there on her own.

Auspicious a staying board senior member and staff emeritus used to say you can't let a mentally ill person lead.

She's grasping at straws.  

She's impulsively knee jerking to alleviate feelings.

I'm with Waddams.  Let her look I'm guessing if you don't look too this will be short lived.  If my ex had his way we would have been in India, then bartenders in Thailand, in Washington dc doing something DC like, then farmers... .all within a year.

Don't buy a ticket on that train.  Moving doesn't work, new jobs don't work because wherever you go there you are.  It's the same person looking back at her in the mirror.

I know this too well. Having moved nearly every single year since we have met takea toll. Some moves were finacially needed as work was drying up but thats not the case now. She has pressure from her bosses to meet certain sales numbers. I get that pressure is something I never liked either. Going to new T today. I hope this can break some ground. I am optamistic and hopeful at least. I know I will be grilled with questions later but since this is supposed to be for both of us I am ready for that.

Went to T session. I guess it will last with this person. She has al lthe back ground needed to help with this. Even picked up on the potential BPD without me saying anything specific. However my wife asked about the T. Fat? , Thin?, Young? Old?  I said younger than us and average I guess.

Her response. No we are not going you will just want to **explative her***. 

I asked her before what her criteria would be? She said soemone that has knowledge of our typ of problems and Christ centered. I asked Male or Female? She said doesn't matter. Well it does now I guess. Besides she was goign tobe going to the rest of the sessoins fromthis point on.   I'm in for 1 bad weekend when I get home.

Cipher -

I think that it may be easier to remember that its not you triggering her.  She'd be triggered with or without you.

If she started demanding stuff (like getting a new therapist) try to find ways to disengage. 

If you have to say no... .then do so.

I'm looking forward to an interesting couple of days.  I walked away from my husband this morning when he became verbally abusive and he smashed a door down and later in the day he tried to close our joint personal line of credit.  Its simple but not easy.  Hang in there.

Cipher - not trying to be mean, but you don't have to stick around for a really bad weekend.  It's okay to bug out if she gets on you too much. 

She is demanding an apology or I don't come home. I am not wanting to come home.

Cipher - its your house.  You get to go there if you want to.

BTW If you don't come home, there will be hell to pay... .but there's going to be hell to pay regardless... .so maybe its time for a weekend off to your family or something... .

Whatever you do - don't apologize for something that isn't yours... .it just reinforces her bad behavior.

Sometimes it helps to look at your BPD spouse as a sophisticated toddler... .if they scream and rant and rave in the grocery store for a cookie and you give it to them... .then next time they know that to get a cookie in the grocery store... .all that they have to do is scream and rant and rave.

:)

Cipher


It would be a perfect moment to make a visit to your family. No apologize needed.

She is probably scared about the T sessions anyway, regardless if T is female/younger or not.

That accusing behavior just simply wears you out. It is so far removed from reality, that the only thing you can do is save your sanity and stay far away from it.

Cypher... .what do you mean that she wants a "Christ centered" therapist. The reason I ask is that my wife takes a similar position. Is it possible that some extreme religious beliefs may be impacting on our wives brains as well? I haven't read of any connection, but I think its been there all along. Your thoughts?

I compeletely agree with letmeout. They must WIN in their games, it's all about CONTROL. You cannot prove your loyalty to someone who is not able to trust and if you try really hard for doing that they think is something wrong with you. My husband always had trust issues with money and I tried really hard to prove myself that I'm a loyal woman. He played this game with me; he always put some money in one of his coats and asked me to spend it anytime I needed because I knew he doesn't trust me I never touched them. When he took his mask off since our separation, he told me; you know what, you are a very stupid woman for not spending it. I knew if I touched them I would be in a big trouble. There is a no WIN situation. Her jealousy might be due to lack of object constancy so is nothing to do with you. I'm so glad I'm going to get on with my life and away from insanity. But I almost lost my good relationship with my son due to his brainwashing and many other things but never is too late.

Sadly, my BPDex always thought that everyone else thinks the same way that his disordered brain thinks. However, there is a very huge difference between honest people and dishonest people; BPD people and nons.

Ironically Pearl55, my ex told me that I was stupid for not stealing the money when I had to flee our home to get away from his craziness. I wasn't gone an hour when he emptied our accounts and stole everything. Then he gloated that he won, like it was a game. But yet again, he never possessed any decency and I don't miss it.

Oh help! Things are at a point that it is now beyond impossibel. She wants to beblind copied on all my emai at work so that she can see that I am asking people to  not talk to to me unless it is thorugh email at work.

Cipher, this is so far beyond "normal craziness" that it sounds as if paranoia is setting in as part of what needs to be clinically diagnosed for her. At the least it's extinction burst behaviors. I'm so sorry... .she may continue to deteriorate over the next few days.

You sound as if you recognize the impossible nature of where she is landing ... .is that the case?

Yes I do. She has admitted its not rational but as soon as I tried to gently help suggested we look at that with some professional she say's " I'm not crazy"  she is terrriefed of that labe too I think.

I have said its never been this bad before. I think its going to keep happening and each day has the potential to be the worst day yet.

Absolutely refuse to do this.  She is just testing you here as you set some boundaries recently, which she does not like.

Can she even prove who you are emailing?  You could send 100 emails a day and include her in 1 of them and she will never know about the other 99. 

But do not include her on any.  I am sure there are even legal ramifications in sending email to someone that is not a member of the company.

I knowthere probably is. I was hoping to be able to send fakes but that is extra work that I should not have to do. I hate I let it get liek this. I was hoping she coul dsee how messed up this is. I think I found out that I am the one that is crazy. Trying to think I can get her to see how messed up these requests are.

Also I was planning on bringin soemthing up to my manager. I just don't know how much to reveal. Its affecting my job and I can't have that.

Right with you there mate.  You may as well be talking to a brick wall to try and convince her, it's a lost cause.


This could be a good idea, especially if you think it has been noticed that you are constatnly texting etc.  You do not have to tell them everything but could mention that you are having difficulties at home.

I have been in work and spent 6 or 7 hours texting while my fiance was dysregulating. I am sure it was noticed. 

I just spoke to my boss. They understand and were appriciative of making them aware. I know i have put a target on my back but maybe I need that anyway to force me to do what is right. They aid they havn't noticed yet but that could be the right people havn't mentioned it. I said I wanted to make you aware and that I am doing everthign to control this and I need this job becasue it is my sanity and the one thing that is mine that I enjoy.


I had to tell the wife I was pulled into a meeting that I was being told about exsessive texting and emailing. I should limit my time here to lunch breaks.

Cipher,

Sorry to be blunt but its crazy to pretend to send FAKE EMAILS.  When is enough, enough?  When are you literally just going to SAY NO?  I hope that you took some time to call or go to the police station to get advise on your local laws.  The minute you say NO to her... .things are probably going to go a little crazy.  Fasten your seat belt buddy.

I am going to Private message you with the offer of sending (e-mail, dropbox, or other method of delivery) you a book that I read that really helped clear up my thinking and set me on a path to recovery (whether my husband comes along or not).

I'm glad that you spoke to your boss about what is going on.  I'm sure that its effecting your productivity and its good to make them aware that you are trying to do the right thing.

Allibaba

Being blunt is really what works for me. I appricate that. My boss was blunt and understanding. From that conversation I was able to find the solution the email issue. I told her that work spoke to me and oother in my departement about texting and extra emails. And that I can no tset up the email template that she came up with. I said that I had to ask them about anythign liek that for procudure and they said it was not needed and I couldn't do that.  So that issue was avoided rather naturally and offical.

I do know exactly what you mean by saying "No". I had the opportunity to test that out unfortunately.  Friday she said she wanted me to look for a different job. I said "no".  She did become very aggitated. Her tone changed. Her manurisms changed. It was on the verge a of an explosion. I said finally if there was somethign that I thought I would liek better I would keep my options open. That wasn't a lie. However I do not plan that happening today or tomorrow. She settled a little bit. Took the edge off her attitude about it.  So I got a glimpse of what I might be in for. Oh she also said she woul dget me fired. I was able to get her to see that statement was out of bounds if only temporaly at the time.

Cipher

I am glad that you told your boss.  Its basically the first step to freeing yourself.  You stop keeping what you are going through SECRET.

I just electronically sent you a book that has helped me tremendously.  Its about Narcissism, but the basic premise is the same.  The book is called 13 Steps Towards a Peaceful Home Step 1 opens up as follows:

"If you are right now living with a verbally, emotionally or physically abusive partner, get as

much help as is available in your area and get rid of the people in your life (and especially

your home) who are not helping. Do not be proud. If there is a family worker who will visit

your home, get them over regularly. If there is a domestic violence (D.V.) officer at your local

police station, go and see them. Let as many people as you can who work in family matters in

your community know about your situation. Make friends with these support workers and at

the same time reclaim your home . . ."

Anyone who wants to buy the book can private message me and I'll send them the link.  Its about narcissism, but the steps are sound and it talks a lot about protecting yourself.  When you truly start standing up for yourself its important not to be naive about what the consequences might be.  I'm so glad that I took steps in advance to arm myself with information before I started my journey.

Alli

Cipher - one day you're gonna have to stop worrying about what she thinks, what she is doing or might do, how she reacts, etc.  Just let it all go.

Threatening to try and get you fired is way out of bounds.  This business of BCC'ing her on your emails?  Telling her work policy precludes you from complying is different from telling her NO.  You're at the least letting her think you would if you could.  It's a passive way of trying to wriggle out of her demands instead of assertively standing up for yourself and telling her NO.  You're just egging things on by being wishy washy about this.

I understand you are afraid and stressed out about what her reactions would be if you were to be more assertive in setting your own boundaries with her.  But consider this:  You haven't done anything wrong.  The things you have posted in the past that you feel bad about... .okay but honestly they aren't that bad.  Definitely not anything to warrant what you are going through.  If you are going to get out of this situation, you are going to have to be assertive and tell her NO.  And then don't get sucked into the arguments, accusations, mocking, etc. that follows.  Have a plan for how to get out of dodge quickly if you need to, and otherwise let your actions be based on what is healthy, and not how you can deal with each situation with as little drama as possible.  At some point, you're gonna have to go through the drama she creates when improving things for yourself.

I am putting forth an evacuation plan complete with clothing and place to stay hopefully. I was just going to use my car for a place to stay for a while before it turned all artctic cold outside. This is just another one of those times that having family or friends close by would so be a huge blessing. I do not make that kind of money where I can get a hotel room for any length of time. My mind is made up to a degree that it is enough. I falter on the execusion and blame that I don't have anything planned or place to go. I am going to see what I do when I take away my own excuses.

Thanks for saying this Waddams.  I was thinking the same and then got distracted.  Prepare yourself for a battle Cipher, but in the end you will win yourself back... .and you may even get your relationship back.  Read the book I sent you if you get a chance. 

We are behind you.   |iiii

I looked at it a littel bit. Again thank you for that. I will do what I can to read it with some more time to absorb it all in.

Cipher: I also wanted to chime in here and just note that I agree with what the others are saying to you.  Your wife’s antics in asking what the therapist looks like and accusing you of wanting to eff her and asking you to bcc her on emails are off the charts inappropriate.  Telling your wife somehow that your supervisor said the bcc thing is not okay does not go far enough.  I try to avoid telling people what to do, but I really think it’s time for you to start telling your wife “no” about these things. 

Something along the lines of, “it would be unreasonable and unprofessional of me to email co-workers and instruct them to only contact me by email – that would hamper my ability to do my job and would be detrimental to my career, so I WILL NOT be doing that.”  Then let her explode, yell, cry, accuse, etc.  Whatever happens with her, you can still keep your dignity as a human.

Oh, I would also encourage you to get your wife in to see that couples counseling female therapist that your wife was accusing you about.  If the therapist understands the BPD angle, she might be able to help.

Cipher her demands are getting pretty out there.  I popped up the link to jealousy and paranoia before because these things spiral.  They can quickly become a negayive feedback loop where her demands and paranoia worsen your response gets more rigid and her demands get more extreme in reaction to your avoiding or digging in making a point.  Then the crap really hits the fan with a emotional outburst or tantrum.  Sometimes validating her feelings in between (it doesn't mean you agree or think its rational) . This stuff is like a massive cry for attention and help.

One thing as far as slowing this down a bit - if you want to try for this marriage - is validating.

Now I'm not saying validate the invalid - like yeah honey copying you on emails sounds like a great idea.

The more you don't hear her fears the more she's gonna push for outlandish stuff.

It can go something like "I know you are nervous when I'm not around and it makes you feel better when you know what's going on with me."

That's it really.  It isn't about fixing anything or controlling whether she freaks out because that's a different boundary or time out if it gets abusive.  If you validate early it can be a salve and you can work your way to saying no.

Please don't make up emails to satisfy her.  That's not healthy for either of you.

And the paranoia and demands are definitely something I'd bring up with the t.

Ps her demands on the email where totally inappropriate.  She's not well.

I will give validating a larger push than I have. I slacked there from time to time. especially when I am feeling like the demands are coming from all  directions. I found and appropriate way to handle the email situation. She was surprizingly accetable with it. I told her that I was told I could not set it up that way and that the procedures in place would not allow for me to set up an email only inbox. 

I was thinking about trying to reach out o her parents for some help. I don't think I can really do much more of this without any help. The T was supposed to be for the both of us and perhaps secretly in my mind it was to gently nudge her to look at and within herself not just me. I know she needs and can only benefit from T.  I need it to keep from loosing what marbles I have left. Last night I almost fell for the open ticket to leave. I started to take it but just before I wnet all in something inside stopped me.  General Ackbar from Star Wars "Its a trap!" Is the first thing that came to me. Even though I began my emergency prep kit for leaving. Its only a pittiful pair of socks and 2 shirts hidden in the spare tire wheel well of my car. Its all I could find that she would not notice as being gone.

I think that this is very wise Cipher.  What you are dealing with is bigger than some marital problems.  I think that you need to quietly find an army to be in your court - family is good - you have mentions being Christian - find a pastor or someone at the church that you can talk to.  Make sure when you talk to them that you don't mention mental illness... .talk about her behavior (abuse) and let them know you are starting to question your own sanity things have been so hard... .emphasize that you love your wife but things can't keep going the way that they are going and explain that you need some support to try to save your marriage.  Is her family trustworthy?  Would they go talk to her behind your back and make things worse?


This works for now.


Yes, it is a trap.  And good for you for noticing.  

Sometimes the benefit of having an emergency kit is just peace of mind.  When my husband gets loopy, I put my purse someplace else... .just in case.

I fairely confident that they are trust worthy. I know they have had to deal with some situations with her before I was ever in the picture so they are aware of some of her potential I'd say. I would definately avoid any discussion with her sister. She has her own mental health issues to deal with and has tried to link my wife into her world of "personal crazy". 

I suspect her Dad has some kind of NPD or BPD but it is nowhere near any sort of level that my wife has. He is well educated in mental helath issues with social working and counseling type back grounds. Her mom however is kind of the glue to the family when it comes to the emotional things I think. So I might try there first.

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