I just don't know how much more I can do

[connect]

Hi Cipher,

Yes she is extreamly demanding and unreasonable. I understand how that feels   Sometimes I think we can go so far down the road of trying to appease them and stop the rages that it seems a long way back. I am certain we can all do it though eventually. Especially with using the tools. Which of the tools has worked best with her? Before you met her, did you feel as though you used to act differently? I know I certainly did before my bf.

As for the "hiding" suff. I have been told quite often that I am not honest and open about things too. My bf says he would be better towards me if I was more open. There is a lot of hypocrosy there believe me... .a LOT!

I am glad to hear that you are going to see a new T - might shake things up a bit. What do you think would happen to her and to you if you did leave, out of interest? I know you are on the fence about it as I have read lots of your posts.

And as an aside - as for the porn stuff. I personally have no problem with my bf looking at porn - he looks at it a few times a week. I just wanted to say that not all women think porn is a crime! Just to balance out against the reaction you got - I know everyone is different though.

Hope you are ok.

[allibaba]

I feel guilty from things I have done int he past. She holds on to them liek they are fresh as yesterday. I'm not proud of it but I have asked for forgiveness and apologized. I had looked at naked ladies on the internet a few times over the past 12 years of marriage. More so in the first 4 years. Thats where her insecurities and her untrusting feelings come from.

Ok Cipher, Personally I just want to say that if THIS IS IT... .then you should take a moment and try to forgive yourself.  My husband looks at porn ALL THE TIME (thanks connect for also being honest about this topic).  Its not a crime.  It may be against some peoples morals... .but that is a different story.  When my husband looks at naked woman on the internet - its not like he wants them more than me.  He's even visited a few strip clubs over the years.  This is also not a crime.  I can take that stance because I have self confidence.  It turns out that going to a strip club makes him feel more lonely and empty so its rare that he does it.  Deeply consider bringing up your guilt at therapy and really working on this.  If you get past your own guilty feelings, I think that it will be a lot easier to start to work on the issues with your wife and your interactions with her.

My ideal life consists of being able to not feel like I have to live with the guilt constantly and that I do not have to account for everyhtign I do at every second to make her feel comfortable.

OK good start but... . Let's get past that.  Let's assume that you actually have control of your own life.  What do you want it to look like?

Example, I want to be successful at my job and want to be promoted to manager within 2 yrs.  I want to have enough concentration at work that I can actually work.  I also want to have a balanced personal and work life where my personal life includes doing something with the guys at least once a week, being able to go when I get invited to hockey games, and going hunting regularly during hunting season, and I want to be able to spend time with my parents at least once a month without feeling guilty about it.

Paint a picture for me.  Its ok to want a life for yourself.  Wanting a life for yourself does mean excluding your wife.  I don't mean to be blunt but your wife is a very sick woman emotionally.  :)o you know that in your soul?

What happened in March?

Her greatest fear stemmed from some dreams before we got married that my parents would either try to convince me to leave and stay with them or that they would take me from her.  I had to go back to my home town to get ma copy of my birth certificate from the courthouse for a passporet for work. KNowing her fears I chose not to tell her I was going there and pretended I was at work. I got home sooner than I expected but was given the rest of the day off. She happend to stop home while on her way to a meeting which at that point she had never done. I was home and supposed to be at work. I had to tell her what I did. I was ashamed I couldn't tell her before but in my mind I was saving myself from an arguement. But I was caught in my lie so the arguement was worse. of course. Thast what happend in March.

Oh my goodness Cipher.  So you made a mistake.  Oh well.  We all make them.  I think that it was Grey Kitty who said that her insecurities stem from her illness, not from your 'bad behavior'.  Until you come to terms with your own past mistakes and forgive yourself... .there's very little likelihood that your wife will get past them either.  I really think that this could be a good place to start in therapy (I mean after you give the new therapist all the background).

 Hang in there buddy.  I know that you can do this.  I feel this current beneath your posts that says that you WILL NOT GET STUCK IN THIS CYCLE OF DYSFUNCTION.  

[Cipher13]

What do you want it to look like?

I actually a month or 2 ago started that very list. allibaba I want to thank you for keeping a interest in my post because the things you listed I have put on that list. I have not had the opportunities to do alot of the things in life I really like. I like politics. My wife actually shares a majority of my veiws on topics. I listen to talk radio. She makes fun of that. I listen to the "old man stations".

When it comes to the past I do know that she is holding on due to BPD. But the guilt she can lash out at me with takes root and after 13 years of it its not easy to always deflect. I am now in contact with an uncle that I have learned went through a similar thing with his ex wife. He even made the comment how good she is at creating and deflecting the guilt based on what I have mensioned to him.

I sure hope there is some progress made with this T. Another new thing that my wife is bringing up is having to me intimate more frequently and any sort of slight by my part is means for not lovig her or being affectionate. Of course that isn't the case at all. I can see her level of desparation has elevated over the last 6 months.

[allibaba]

I actually a month or 2 ago started that very list. allibaba I want to thank you for keeping a interest in my post because the things you listed I have put on that list. I have not had the opportunities to do alot of the things in life I really like. I like politics. My wife actually shares a majority of my veiws on topics. I listen to talk radio. She makes fun of that. I listen to the "old man stations".

This is great stuff.  I am so glad that you are paying attention to yourself!  Now that you have the list find ways to incorporate things "that make you whole" into your life.  I had a typo in my post above.  I said that "Wanting a life for yourself does mean excluding your wife." It was actually a typo - I meant to say that "Wanting a life for yourself does NOT mean excluding your wife."  In other words, if you pursue your life and carve out your own space then your relationship with your wife may actually GET BETTER.  But that's up to her.  It may also do her head in... .but at this point it seems clear that you don't want to continue living the way that you are living so its worth it (at least that is what I gather from your posts).

When it comes to the past I do know that she is holding on due to BPD. But the guilt she can lash out at me with takes root and after 13 years of it its not easy to always deflect. I am now in contact with an uncle that I have learned went through a similar thing with his ex wife. He even made the comment how good she is at creating and deflecting the guilt based on what I have mensioned to him.

Old habits die hard and you will feel really, really uncomfortable making changes.  Embrace that discomfort and understand it for what it is... .a good thing... .helping you make your life better.  I'm glad that you have made contact with your uncle.  Its good to have REAL world support and someone that you can talk to.

I sure hope there is some progress made with this T. Another new thing that my wife is bringing up is having to me intimate more frequently and any sort of slight by my part is means for not lovig her or being affectionate. Of course that isn't the case at all. I can see her level of desparation has elevated over the last 6 months.

  Her desperation has elevated because she thinks that she is losing you.  If you can find ways to tell her that you love her (bring her flowers, maybe make her a nice dinner)... .if you do want a shot at keeping your marriage together you are also going to have to work hard to love her through this tough changing process.  If you let go of your own guilt and fear... .it may be replaced by true love.  That love won't fill her void... .you'll still see the push/pull but if you are more comfortable in yourself then it will be like water off a duck's back.

        Hang in there.

[allibaba]

allibaba I want to thank you for keeping a interest in my post because the things you listed I have put on that list.

 

PS Its been a pleasure to follow your posts... .I have already seen such a start to change within yourself and I can't wait to see the future.

I still encourage you to take time to contact your local police to understand the laws and what they think you should do and how you should protect yourself.  The day will come when you have to stand up for yourself and it may not be pretty.  Just remember you are doing this for YOU AND HER!

[popeye6031]

I had looked at naked ladies on the internet a few times over the past 12 years of marriage. More so in the first 4 years. Thats where her insecurities and her untrusting feelings come from.

This is definitely not where her insecurities and lack of trust in you have come from.

These insecurities were already there long before you two even met.

My fiance has never caught me looking at porn but has found some old videos on a hard drive about 2 years ago.

She recently started an argument from nowhere over how I watch porn every night and it is such an insult to her.

You did nothing wrong Cipher. 

My brother's wfe caught him looking at porn once, she joked with him about it for a few weeks but never got angry and never held it against him.  That is a healthy reaction.

No need to feel guilty.

Her greatest fear stemmed from some dreams before we got married that my parents would either try to convince me to leave and stay with them or that they would take me from her.  I had to go back to my home town to get ma copy of my birth certificate from the courthouse for a passporet for work. KNowing her fears I chose not to tell her I was going there and pretended I was at work. I got home sooner than I expected but was given the rest of the day off. She happend to stop home while on her way to a meeting which at that point she had never done. I was home and supposed to be at work. I had to tell her what I did. I was ashamed I couldn't tell her before but in my mind I was saving myself from an arguement. But I was caught in my lie so the arguement was worse. of course. Thast what happend in March.

Her greatest fear is abandonment and therefore any time you spend with anyone else is perceived as a chance of you being persuaded to leave her, no matter who it is.

The dream thing has been used, whether is really happened or not, as a means to keep you isolated, especially from your parents who appear to know what you are going through.

I get the dream thing on weekly basis about other girls taking me away from her.  I pay no attention to it as I know what it is really about.

Again, you have nothing to feel guilty about here. 

The only thing you did not do was let her know exactly what you were doing for every minute of that particular day.

In a healthy relationship, a partner should be able to go to their parents without ever thinking to mention it except maybe to talk about it later that day.

I will join everyone else here in saying well done to you on your progress since joining here.  A world of difference.

[Cipher13]

I may have made some progress here and in my mind and my thoughts. I feel that I have not made as much of a leap in my actions. Hope that can follow a bit quicker that it has been. I know I should not beat my slef up fo rthe past especially when it really is not wrong just maybe not as pure as the wind driven snow. She can lay the guilt on thick. I have not found my own way to handle it yet so that it doesn't weigh so heavy on my heart and mind. No matter what I do it won't be enought... .understood... .so how do I begin to cut back to a heathier level without her being on my case... .well since that won't happen I just need a good way for me to deal with and handle that part of it becasue I won't stop the "madness".

[allibaba]

No matter what I do it won't be enought... .understood... .so how do I begin to cut back to a heathier level without her being on my case... .well since that won't happen I just need a good way for me to deal with and handle that part of it becasue I won't stop the "madness".

You got it buddy!

I may have made some progress here and in my mind and my thoughts. I feel that I have not made as much of a leap in my actions. Hope that can follow a bit quicker that it has been.

Cipher, I knew in my heart the right approach for probably 2 years before I had the courage to really start working it.  What helped was two things 1.  The knowledge that I had to change or lose the relationship anyway (also having our son was a big part of this)

2.  Having the real practical support of the people on these boards.

Don't beat yourself up.  The one thing that I will say is something that Grey Kitty told me.  Boundaries are really only effective if you are consistent about them.  If you do them great one time and then let it slide the next, it will be a lot harder to affect change.  :)on't worry if you slip up though... .just get back on that horse. 

My recommendation is to start small.  Pick the most damaging behaviors first and start working on them.  For me it was VERBAL ABUSE.  I started with the fact that I would not be called names anymore and I would not be told that I am a piece of [insert expletive] anymore while I was killing myself for my husband.  That ended up rolling out to a whole lot of other things as my confidence grew.  

The timeline for me was probably 6 months between my start with my boundaries and my ability to completely stand up for myself. (it wasn't pretty in between by the way... .I got beat up... .I spent some time in a DV shelter... .and I called the police on him... .all my stuff got packed and put on the side of the road) I'm not there yet but initially there have been great benefits - my husband stopped the verbal abuse, no physical abuse, he's had to turn his attention to himself.  I can sleep better and I am becoming more aware of the areas that I need to work on.

Its simple... .but not even close to easy.  

[Cipher13]

Its simple... .but not even close to easy.

No truer statement. Thanks alot. 

[GreenMango]

As a woman it always shocks me when women freak out about the porn thing.  If it isn't a porn addiction, it isn't informing your sex life negatively, and he don't abuse it why care if he gets his rocks off on porn.

I agree with others that these transgressions she's continuing to beat you with are about her abandonment fears.  

One thing I'd think about is addressing is when you've resolved and argument it doesn't get to used again, brought up again in the next round.  It's resolved.  You may want a boundary for that.

I agree with others here you have some viable stuff for couple counseling.  Keep it about what you want from your marriage and talk about behavior.  Keep the labels out.

What Alli said about intermittent reinforcement on boundaries is spot on.  It extends extinction bursts like the one your wife is going thru now with ll the demands.  You got to weather that big spike with them consistently.

It's exhausting tho.  I totally get why parents with a renegade teenager are so tired because its the similar situation.

It's like: I love you, you feel x that's a crappy way to feel, No I won't do that, I love you.  (on repeat thru it)

[allibaba]

GreenMango!

Your graph totally reflects my last 6 months... .  WOWSERS!

[GreenMango]

It scared me the first time!  Then I though okay that's what's going on and thankfully human behavior is pretty consistent and has a pattern, even if its an erratic one.

It's a graph similar to the one my therapist drew me when I was in my relationship getting therapy on how to handle things. ** the sticking point is if you cave at the height of that spike that becomes the new normal a person repeatedly goes to to get what they want.**

It helped to see it.  Its in the extinction burst workshop with other posts on how to handle it.  How other members tackle it.

Cipher it sounds like you are in the middle of one now.  Which isn't abnormal considering the changes you are making.  

Here's the link to the workshop: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

[Cipher13]

She is back to lookig fo rjobs everywhere because she does not like her job. Wants me to look to. I said it would have to be better than the one I have now to get me to move. Where she is looking again is not in an area that has a lot of potential for me.

[Waddams]

Cipher if you like your job and don't want to leave, then don't look for a new job and don't leave.

If she insists, in your position given the issues you are dealing with, nobody would fault you to tell her to go ahead and find herself a new job and move there on her own.

[GreenMango]

Auspicious a staying board senior member and staff emeritus used to say you can't let a mentally ill person lead.

She's grasping at straws.  

She's impulsively knee jerking to alleviate feelings.

I'm with Waddams.  Let her look I'm guessing if you don't look too this will be short lived.  If my ex had his way we would have been in India, then bartenders in Thailand, in Washington dc doing something DC like, then farmers... .all within a year.

Don't buy a ticket on that train.  Moving doesn't work, new jobs don't work because wherever you go there you are.  It's the same person looking back at her in the mirror.

[Cipher13]

I know this too well. Having moved nearly every single year since we have met takea toll. Some moves were finacially needed as work was drying up but thats not the case now. She has pressure from her bosses to meet certain sales numbers. I get that pressure is something I never liked either. Going to new T today. I hope this can break some ground. I am optamistic and hopeful at least. I know I will be grilled with questions later but since this is supposed to be for both of us I am ready for that.

[Cipher13]

Went to T session. I guess it will last with this person. She has al lthe back ground needed to help with this. Even picked up on the potential BPD without me saying anything specific. However my wife asked about the T. Fat? , Thin?, Young? Old?  I said younger than us and average I guess.

Her response. No we are not going you will just want to **explative her***. 

I asked her before what her criteria would be? She said soemone that has knowledge of our typ of problems and Christ centered. I asked Male or Female? She said doesn't matter. Well it does now I guess. Besides she was goign tobe going to the rest of the sessoins fromthis point on.   I'm in for 1 bad weekend when I get home.

[allibaba]

Cipher -

I think that it may be easier to remember that its not you triggering her.  She'd be triggered with or without you.

If she started demanding stuff (like getting a new therapist) try to find ways to disengage. 

If you have to say no... .then do so.

I'm looking forward to an interesting couple of days.  I walked away from my husband this morning when he became verbally abusive and he smashed a door down and later in the day he tried to close our joint personal line of credit.  Its simple but not easy.  Hang in there.

[Waddams]

Cipher - not trying to be mean, but you don't have to stick around for a really bad weekend.  It's okay to bug out if she gets on you too much. 

[Cipher13]

She is demanding an apology or I don't come home. I am not wanting to come home.

[allibaba]

Cipher - its your house.  You get to go there if you want to.

BTW If you don't come home, there will be hell to pay... .but there's going to be hell to pay regardless... .so maybe its time for a weekend off to your family or something... .

Whatever you do - don't apologize for something that isn't yours... .it just reinforces her bad behavior.

Sometimes it helps to look at your BPD spouse as a sophisticated toddler... .if they scream and rant and rave in the grocery store for a cookie and you give it to them... .then next time they know that to get a cookie in the grocery store... .all that they have to do is scream and rant and rave.

[Surnia]

Cipher

She is demanding an apology or I don't come home. I am not wanting to come home.

It would be a perfect moment to make a visit to your family. No apologize needed.

She is probably scared about the T sessions anyway, regardless if T is female/younger or not.

[letmeout]

That accusing behavior just simply wears you out. It is so far removed from reality, that the only thing you can do is save your sanity and stay far away from it.

[Hopeless777]

Cypher... .what do you mean that she wants a "Christ centered" therapist. The reason I ask is that my wife takes a similar position. Is it possible that some extreme religious beliefs may be impacting on our wives brains as well? I haven't read of any connection, but I think its been there all along. Your thoughts?

[Pearl55]

I compeletely agree with letmeout. They must WIN in their games, it's all about CONTROL. You cannot prove your loyalty to someone who is not able to trust and if you try really hard for doing that they think is something wrong with you. My husband always had trust issues with money and I tried really hard to prove myself that I'm a loyal woman. He played this game with me; he always put some money in one of his coats and asked me to spend it anytime I needed because I knew he doesn't trust me I never touched them. When he took his mask off since our separation, he told me; you know what, you are a very stupid woman for not spending it. I knew if I touched them I would be in a big trouble. There is a no WIN situation. Her jealousy might be due to lack of object constancy so is nothing to do with you. I'm so glad I'm going to get on with my life and away from insanity. But I almost lost my good relationship with my son due to his brainwashing and many other things but never is too late.

[letmeout]

Sadly, my BPDex always thought that everyone else thinks the same way that his disordered brain thinks. However, there is a very huge difference between honest people and dishonest people; BPD people and nons.

Ironically Pearl55, my ex told me that I was stupid for not stealing the money when I had to flee our home to get away from his craziness. I wasn't gone an hour when he emptied our accounts and stole everything. Then he gloated that he won, like it was a game. But yet again, he never possessed any decency and I don't miss it.

[Cipher13]

Oh help! Things are at a point that it is now beyond impossibel. She wants to beblind copied on all my emai at work so that she can see that I am asking people to  not talk to to me unless it is thorugh email at work.

[GaGrl]

Cipher, this is so far beyond "normal craziness" that it sounds as if paranoia is setting in as part of what needs to be clinically diagnosed for her. At the least it's extinction burst behaviors. I'm so sorry... .she may continue to deteriorate over the next few days.

You sound as if you recognize the impossible nature of where she is landing ... .is that the case?

[Cipher13]

You sound as if you recognize the impossible nature of where she is landing ... .is that the case?

Yes I do. She has admitted its not rational but as soon as I tried to gently help suggested we look at that with some professional she say's " I'm not crazy"  she is terrriefed of that labe too I think.

I have said its never been this bad before. I think its going to keep happening and each day has the potential to be the worst day yet.

[popeye6031]

Oh help! Things are at a point that it is now beyond impossibel. She wants to beblind copied on all my emai at work so that she can see that I am asking people to  not talk to to me unless it is thorugh email at work.

Absolutely refuse to do this.  She is just testing you here as you set some boundaries recently, which she does not like.

Can she even prove who you are emailing?  You could send 100 emails a day and include her in 1 of them and she will never know about the other 99. 

But do not include her on any.  I am sure there are even legal ramifications in sending email to someone that is not a member of the company.