BPDFamily.com

I thought this might be better suited to this thread... .

My exBPD lover whom I have been having an argument with for 3 weeks now (after she lashed out at me with accusations)- sent me this article last night via text. And it basically says that you shouldn't brush off women (in particular exes) as crazy or say they are "too sensitive" or "too defensive". And that it is "emotionally abuse"  to invalidate their feelings and concerns and all too easy to say they are crazy.

She said to me via text:  "A friend posted this article on Facebook. Interesting timing I guess".

www.m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4259779


I replied and said "Is this meant for me?  it's aimed at an ex who has invalidated your feelings and brushed u off as crazy. I don't think you are crazy and you have a right to feel whatever you feel".

And she replied saying:  "Ha! Sorry but I have never been made to feel this way. Look, you're obviously very intelligent and understand the power of words and how to use them. The fact that I keep buying into this saga is actually driving me a bit loopy!"



I don't even understand what that means. She is calling our argument a "saga". I replied by telling her to maybe send it to someone else who thinks she is "loopy" or "crazy" as this is not something I have called her.  Could this be projection?

I'm confused. Again.

Huh, interesting article.

well, DO you think your ex is crazy?

Since this is a board specifically for partners of people with a mental illness called BPD, I will assume you suspect your ex has BPD or BPD like behaviors to some degree?

how we talk and interact says a lot about how we think or feel about a person, and a sensitive person can pick up on that feeling context pretty easily...

Perhaps she senses you think she is crazy, or that you hold that opinion of her in some capacity, whether it was formally stated or not?

and, she may wonder about it herself, too... "am I crazy?"

since you are on a board designed to support people in relationship with a partner who is mentally ill... .her 'sense' that you might think  or suspect she's crazy or mentally ill might be at least in part, be accurate?

no?

emotional validation is a good way to avoid lengthy, unproductive arguments.

you say she is your ex, but are you wanting to stay?

My suggestion is don't try so hard to make what she says make sense. Especially when it is about what you are feeling or thinking.

I'd mostly try to notice how she is feeling that she would say/txt something like that... .and believe that she really really is having those feelings, at that time. (Different feelings may follow later.)

If the rest of what she says (besides her feelings) doesn't fit your reality, let it go.

Thanks for your comments.

I think she is BPD but not a crazy.

I think she may likely have mental issues so I have never called her crazy. I've thought her behaviour was "nuts" and nonsensical. But I realise now she likely has a disorder.

So to send me a link like that with no explanation really... is strange.

It's like she is inviting more questions... but then gets angry when I do respond.

Do you think the article is her way of telling me she has mental issues?

And that I shouldn't think of her as crazy?

Update... .

so i asked her why she sent it to me...

she said. "You shouldnt label women as crazy just because you want them to behave in the way you deem appropriate. It was explaining why it is so patronising. It was a pretty simple article I thought."

Thing is... her behaviour isn't normal. And she doesn't seem to have any insights into it.

I've never called her crazy to her face or anything. I have only told her I was hurt and scared after her outburst at me.

This feels like projection. Like she knows she's crazy but she's blaming me for "labelling" her crazy! Which I never did.

Do u think its best to ignore? This could go on forever

On the Staying board I think the best way is validate her - Yes, it sucks to feel labeled as crazy.

Its not about what you did or not did, its about how she feels.

... so I asked her when have I labelled her as crazy and she said:

"You dont have to because apparently everyone who knows me does it already.

Im really bored of this.  What do I have to admit to or say to make u stop texting me every day?"

Wow. Is this victim playing here?

And I don't text her every day.

It sure sounds like she is playing the victim or being self destructive. 

Everyone thinks she is crazy... so she sends me an article to not label her crazy? Hmm.

Is it attention seeking?

And she's being quite rude too by saying what can she say to make me stop texting her everyday. And I merely respond to her texts when she says things that invite responses.

I'm thinking the best way to handle this is to not respond. She sounds like she's in a bad mood again... .?

I feel that I need to set boundaries now.

I feel almost emotionally abused now. She keeps sending me self destructive texts saying she feels terrible and I make her feel awful. And I'm not uncaring and she knows that.

So she invites a response and then goes crazy when I respond and ask for clarification.

Do you think this message is rude to say in response?

Please stop sending me self destructive texts that invite a response. I'm not uncaring & I've been respectful to you from the start. So, please respect me & don't blame me for your bad feelings that stem from others.

I am sorry you are experiencing this trouble. With my husband, I would call this baiting. She was looking to provoke a response in you. Anything to justify her feelings that she thinks you see her as crazy. Don't JADE. It just gives them ammunition. Acknowledge her feelings without agreeing with them. My BPDh and I have really fought hard to accept that we are allowed our feelings. No one can tell you how to feel. It is hard and takes a lot of practice. If she is your ex, why even respond and engage in circular arguments? It will not solve anything and it won't stop until you validate her. I wish you luck. This is a hard disorder to deal with. - pecia

Thanks percia.

I have heard of baiting and it does sound like it.

Why send me the article otherwise? And then when I ask her to tell me when I have labelled her a "crazy", she then plays the victim!

Apparently EVERYONE thinks she is crazy now.

I feel like my caring nature is being taken advantage of.

I guess I should just stop responding. It seems she just can't be civil or say anything nice to me without a little insult or such.

And it seems she wants me to respond but then if I don't respond in the way she likes, I get abused.

Have you read this workshop?

How to stop circular arguments  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0)

I think this describes the situation you are in very well.

I'd also add that emotionally charged issues are much harder to resolve when you remove non-verbal communications. So face to face is best. Voice is next best. Email isn't very good, although it can help sometimes. Text messages are worst.

Validation is very helpful. I'd make sure you aren't doing anything invalidating before stepping up the validation a notch: One little bit of invalidation can completely undo a ton of validation with a pwBPD.

Not JADE'ing (mentioned in the workshop at the top), not Justifying, Arguing, Defending, or Explaining is a huge step, because any of those are both natural things we want to do, and completely invalidating.

Hang in there!

 GK

Thanks for the link. I will definitely read this!

I feel like she is a child throwing tantrums who may need to be told off.

I drafted thus response:

Please stop sending me these self destructive messages that bait a response. I used to enjoy talking to you. But I've had enough of being made to feel bad over things that others have done to you. If you can't be pleasant to me, I don't wish to hear from you again. Send your article & messages to someone else.


Obviously this is harsh. But I feel boundaries need to be put in.

For the past 3 weeks, I have been absused over text and belittled and made to feel awful over things I never did to her.

Then she sends me an article and plays the victim and sends more bitter messages if I don't get her. And then tells me she doesn't want me to text her every day.

Silence could be golden... do you think?

You can send the message however I wouldn't expect it to stop the abusive txts and maintain the friendship. My guess is that it will continue to fuel more angry txts sooner or later. I also don't put up boundaries that way.

A boundary you enforce is in the form of "If you do X, I will do Y".

A rule is in the form of "Please stop doing X"

If you make a rule, she gets to decide whether to follow or break the rule. You don't have any power over it.

If you enforce a boundary, you prevent the action from harming you by taking your own decisive action. She has no power to stop you from enforcing the boundary; you are completely able to take actions to protect yourself. She simply gets to choose whether to trigger enforcement of your boundary.

Yes, we have a workshop on that too :)

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence (https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries)

In this case, if you are getting abusive txts, think about a way you could enforce that boundary. Some choices include:

• reply saying "I do not wish to discuss this by txt"



• delete them without reading them



• block her phone number from sending you txts



• do one of these things for a fixed period of time.

Well I sent the message.

I ended by telling her that I used to enjoy talking to her but I'm tired of being made to feel bad for the way others have treated her. And that she can focus her bitterness on someone else. I also told her to not send me such self destructive messages expecting a reply and then get annoyed when I do reply.

I feel bad in a way because I'm not a mean person. I know she is very sensitive and may be very torn up by that.

But I can't handle her. It seems the nicer I am- the more vindictive she is. Perhaps me being assertive will help.  Or she may never reply.

I forgot to mention...

When I asked her why she sent me the article... she also said "*sigh* the only problem I have is the complete lack of will power when trying to ignore you"



My immediate thought was- what a bhit!

And she then went on to say how the article is easy to understand.

Is it common for BPDs to send you messages to provoke a response in you or confuse you... and then when you reply asking them to clarify- they brush u off and act like you're a pest?

When I started getting deeper into the issues I was having with my pwBPD, it helped to flip things around.  Surprisingly I found that we weren't all that much different in times of stress which has really helped me to empathize.

Is it possible that you lack willpower when it comes to ignoring her at times?

Hey there

Good question... .|iiii

Yes, I lack will power when it comes to ignoring her too.     It's almost as if she mirrors my thoughts. Perhaps we are similar in that we are both trying to ignore each other but can't.

The reason I can't ignore her- is that I care about her. I still have feelings for her.  And whenever she has been upset, although it's irrational and nonsensical, it's made me feel sad. Perhaps I am a weak personality, I'm not sure.

But I have been on the receiving end of abuse and lash outs for the past 3 weeks.

This drama started because I had asked her why she avoided me before I went overseas and then told me she misses me.

I had felt rejected by her as we had been dating, and we had an argument (yet we made up) but she didn't want to see me anymore. She kept making excuses to avoid me and I then went to Europe on a holiday. And when I returned, she suddenly wasn't flakey and said she missed me.  I was confused and asked her why she had avoided me so much and didn't want to see me at all for weeks before I went to Europe. I had been upset at her avoidance.

And she went off at me. Lashed out with an accusation I called her something I didn't...  

And a week later I rang her to apologised and she lashed out again saying I insult her regularly.

So since I came back home- she has missed me and then seems to hate me!  And now we are in this terrible drama and I can't make sense of it.  I do feel bad sending her that message telling her off... but I can't take the abuse anymore.

What I dislike the most about her sending me that article, is the way she said everyone she knows apparently labels her 'crazy', so I must as well. And how she told me it's 'patronising'... yet her messages to me are patronising.

So she plays the victim again... comparing me to everyone else. Feeling sorry for herself...

And it is baiting to send me these self destructive messages and then get annoyed at me when I respond in a way that she doesn't like isn't it?

I think she expected me to respond in a soothing way by saying "you're not crazy... I think you're amazing"  or something.  I guess that's her need for validation? 

But instead, I asked her to clarify why she sent me this article and asked her when exactly I labelled her 'crazy'. 

She didn't like that answer and shut me down by saying "What do i need to say or admit to to make you stop texting me everyday?"

Why does it feel so bad to have sent her that message? :'(

I know that she probably is upset. If she got upset over nothing earlier... imagine what a message like that would do!

I guess she may either never reply or apologise again.

Been there, done that, know it.

You are stuck at the moment.

Take a step aside, out of the boxing ring.

To me it seems like you try to prove something, meanwhile you want something.

Ask yourself why?

Ask yourself, can you really prove her wrong at the moment?

Why do you need to? What is it you believe to gain? Will you gain it, really?

What exactly is it that you want?

Can she provides you with it, really?

What is it inside of you that you can change, not to end up here?

I am confused by one thing: is she your ex or not... ?

I have started to say as follow to my ex, on occasions:

"I understand you have this perspective/thought/feeling.

You are allowed to see things/think/feel whatever you see/think/feel."

You do not need to tell her you disagree even, or your boundaries. You just put them (Don't read, answer or else). Once recently I said:" since apparently you do not want to talk about NNN (our son), as you said I shut my phone off now. Goodnight."

That after him being very abusive and threatening, in text, but first luring me in with "wanting to know about our son".

I must say after using the mantra: "cool, smart (protecting me) - and loving/validate". I feel better than when constantly justify etc.

And the most important is how you feel. Not what you say or do not say.

Sometimes you might need to write in anger or disappointment... .I have.

Still I have not felt as good as when being: cool, smart, "loving".

Be careful with yourself!

Hi

She is an ex. We dated for only 2 months back in August.

It was an intense affair. And she then avoided me before I went overseas on holiday.

I was upset as I'd started to really like her. I'd fallen for her.

But I figured she was no longer interested. We had friendly chats while I was in holiday though and I just assumed we would be friends.

But when I got home... I was surprised at her "I miss you" message after she'd avoided me so long.

I thought she was playing me.

So I questioned her over it and I did not expect the lash out to follow. I knew she had issues but didn't know about her rage.

So the past 3 weeks, I've felt so confused and rather abused. She did apologise but then told me that I make her act defensively and have a "knack" for finding her insecurities.

She was essentially blaming me for why she lashed out in rage.

I just wanted to be peaceful. And when I said I would leave things be- she sent a message saying "I know you didn't mean to attack me".

And that made me feel angry- as I wasn't the one who attacked her. So I responded. When I really should have ignored it.

I feel she sends these kinds of messages to provoke a response in me. It's like she wants me to get mad and confused at her. But then gets angry and "bored" when I ask what's going on.

I think if we're able to look at the reasons for a pwBPD's actions, like their deeply held belief that they aren't somebody people want to know, that people are just gonna abandon them eventually, and their view of self is unstable, it's a bit easier to make sense of their behavior. i know with my husband it often seems he's saying something to get a response, checking to see if i'll still love him no matter what. i'm trying to learn how much in terms of my boundaries is done by my actions rather than my words, and i've learned the hard way how texting does not work for these "discussions."

There's a great workshop called "Tools: Being Assertive in a Healthy Way (DBT skill)" that would be a communication skill to learn since it helps us avoid things that can trigger a pwBPD. The more we can understand about what it's like to be in their brain and see things from their end, the more it all makes sense. Then we can learn how to do our best for the relationship. Go to Workshops (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=36.0) and select that title, i think it would be interesting for you to read.  

And i'm wondering too, are you thinking about getting back into the relationship?

Hi Dreamflyer

Well, I do miss her. When she told me she missed me recently- my heart fluttered. :'(

And she (in between her rages) told me "it's perfectly normal to miss someone you haven't seen for ages. I have missed going to dinner/theatres/movies with you and wanted to float the diea I missed you- to see if you felt the same"


I kept wondering why she just didn't say this to begin with... rather than rage and hurl abuse to me!

I just feel awful sending her that message telling her to 'focus her bitterness elsewhere'.  :'(

I didn't want to be on bad terms with her... but yesterday I got so sick of the abuse and the bad treatment. It seems the nicer I am, the more horrible she is.

She just can't apologise without throwing in an accusation that is untrue. I suppose she really pushed me to my limit yesterday.  Now I have been met with silence... .

Do you think in a few days I should contact her calmly? I feel like saying "I'm sorry that seemed harsh but I just can't keep having you send me these messages and then when I ask what they are about, you throw abuse my way. It's not fair and you need to respect me otherwise I can't be friends with you... ."

I read this from a BPD blog today...

Validation is extremely important for everyone, but especially so for someone with Borderline Personality Disorder. One problem we often have is feeling perpetually misunderstood because we are constantly invalidated.  When you are constantly and consistently told that you are: overreacting, acting like a child, blowing something out of proportion, not thinking clearly, that you should ‘act like an adult’, suck it up, crying doesn’t help, being upset accomplishes nothing…. It completely inhibits the potential for constructive communication and progress because you are shutting the person down.


... .could it be that I just shut down my this girl with my text message?   

She was looking for validation that she wasn't crazy... because everyone else apparently thinks she is. And she sent me the article in hope I would validate her? 

She told me that it's 'so patronising' to label women crazy just because they behave in a way we deem inappropriate. Or was she trying to teach me a lesson by saying that I better not call her crazy too?

Feels like now I have invalidated her by asking her to stop sending me the self destructive messages.

Emotional validation is a very helpful tool. It focuses on understanding a persons feelings or their felt experience. it has nothing to do with whose wrong or whose right. my felt "feeling" is true for me, yours is true for you. I don't have to agree with you to understand how you are feeling. everyone's feelings make sense to them according to their experiences, perceptions etc.

you ex seems uncomfortable with a feeling she has that you and others consider her crazy or nuts. this makes sense, it is painful, frightening, shame provoking to be thought of as nuts or crazy. the article supported her position, that it's not fair to right off women as nuts just because they may have different feelings or perceptions... .the article is not touching on relationships where a partner actually does have serious perceptual or cognitive distortions, the author is speaking more generally about a tendency for men to refer to any difficult relationship issue as being the fault of the woman with the casual explanation that any non conforming woman is just psycho, without any self reflection about what he brings to the table. it's not an article about BPD but I can see why this article  would feel supportive if I did have BPD... .because it's suggesting it's not fair to just dump someone who views the world differently than you. Abandonment fears are huge for pwBPD so I can see why this article feels supportive to her, and why she might want to send it to a lover she fears losing whom she has been arguing with. People with BPD get left a lot because they frustrate and wear people out. they have a real disorder, it doesn't just get corrected by us scolding or arguing with them. it's a very real, complicated disorder.

Learning skills to cope with this disorder is a huge amount of work and a huge commitment. she is not going to change.

that's why several posters are asking what your intentions are, staying or something else? Staying is a big decision. This sounds like a fairly new relationship, you are in a good position to evaluate what you really want to do right now. being in a r/s with someone with BPD is a lot of hard work.

Thanks Maybeso... :)

I do understand why she might feel uspet and frightened that everyone in her life might think of her as 'nuts'.  Especially if she has always had her emotions invalidated.

Thing is... I initially told her (when she sent this article) that I don't think she is crazy and this is aimed at someone who has invalidated her feelings. And then when I asked her why she specifically sent it to me- she then became hostile.

I never dumped her either. She avoided me... and I came back after my holiday to Europe and we got into this huge drama. Just because I asked her why she had avoided me!

I don't even understand what the past 3 weeks was!   

My friends say she was trying to make me feel bad by sending it to me... and has an insatiable need for attention.

Do you think that someone with BPD would be destroyed after I sent that text message telling them to stop sending me self destructive messages and focus their bitterness elsewhere?

I just got tired of being the focus of her hurt.

she hasn't replied and it's been 2 days.  I am guessing she is hurt by my message...

I kind of feel like following it up with a message saying I didn't mean to sound harsh but I'm just really hurt and confused by her accusations and insulting messages the past few weeks- that it took its toll.  Good idea?

But considering her last couple of messages said "I'm trying to find the willpower to ignore you"  and "what do I have to say or admit to, to make you stop texting me everyday?"

Hi Diana,

I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions about her reason for not replying.  If you give it a few, it all might come out in the wash.

Think you can let this one go for now and wait & see?

In the meantime, hone up on some of the communication tools available here in the Lessons?  That is if you want to remain in this relationship... .

Honestly?

Everything you are conveying sounds like standard untreated BPD symptoms. it has nothing to do with logic. her feelings are strong and very changeable ... .if you expect her to behave logically or within a frame of ordinary relationship expectations... you will feel intensely hurt and frustrated a lot.

BPD is about lack of core self, mood instability, impulsivity, black/white thinking, and even some dissociative or paranoid features. it's pretty intense.

if she were diagnosed schizophrenic, and told you plants were growing in her head, would you argue about it? likely you would attribute her bizarre perception to her mental illness, and not take it too personally if she said bizarre things about you, too.

BPD looks more close to normal than psychosis, but it's that "borderline" and the fact that relationships trigger their worst symptoms... that tends to make us feel very reactive and defensive.

you have to depersonalize as much as possible if you plan to relate with this person.

don't get too caught up in whatever the story du jur is; it will just change anyway.

she has the exact same symptoms and difficulties with anyone she gets close to, it's not particular to you at all. it feels incredibly personal because it's so frustratingly off the charts, but it's really not personal to you at all. it's how the disorder behaves.

it sounds like both of you needed a break from this anyway... .let it go for now... .enjoy the peace.

Hey

well, it's not a relationship... we went out for a couple of months... .she avoided me... I went to Europe... came back... she said she misses me... I asked what happened and BAM that started a war.  

Not sure if I mentioned- but I had felt bad asking her harshly why she had avoided me and she accused me of calling her "bipolar junkie" (untrue!).

So I called her after our fight and left a message saying this and clearing up I didn't call her that but apologised for our angry messaging.

But this made her even worse. She then lashed out on text telling me my "apology was nasty" and I insult her weekly and she feels terrible. Then she told me we have nothing much in common and make each other angry and sad. And she said goodbye and that she is "___ed".  And promptly deleted me off Facebook.

before I went to Europe... her emotions were a bit all over the place... she was erratic and kept freaking out when I'd get close to her... but also was needy.

But since I returned home, she seems a lot worse. Now she has resorted to being passive aggressive and raging but then feeling bad a day later.

I don't know what happened in her life the past 3 weeks... but I do know she can't handle too much stress with people.

Once she had a fight with a friend and took it out on me and told me I should consider giving up on her. This is why I think something else has happened in her life recently to take her anger out on me.

this was my last text to her:

The way others perceive you, has nothing to do with me. Please stop sending me these self destructive messages that bait a response.

I used to like talking to you, but I've actually had enough of being made to feel bad over the way others have treated you. Please focus your bitterness elsewhere


if she is BPD... I don't think this will resonate with her 

Maybeso>> Ok I will give it a few days and see what happens. Maybe she will apologise again!

Not sure that will help us be friends though.

Ok... this was our text conversation after she sent me the article... saying "interesting timing"

what do you think?  is this a conversation you may have with a BPD?  They get bored half way through even though they started this whole thing?


ME:  "This article seems aimed at an ex who has invalidated your feelings and dismisses you as crazy because it's easier.  I don't think you're crazy and you have a right to feel whatever you feel"

HER:  "Ha! sorry I have never been made to feel this way before. You're obviously very intelligent and you understand the power of language and use it well. I keep getting dragged into this saga and it's driving me a bit loopy!"

ME:   "Righto. Maybe send it to someone who actually thinks you are crazy? because that's not me"

No reply.


Next day:

ME:  "Hey, so I read the article in depth today and the reference to me is a bit ambiguous. So, just wondering... why did you send this to me again?'

HER: "You're begining to sound like a copy of the DSM with all the psychological issues you are concerned some ex has labelled me with" 

and then

HER:  "*sigh* I don't have the willpower to ignore you

ME:  (thinking huh?)  "Well, maybe you shouldn't send me such things if you're unwilling to handle my confusion."

HER:  "You shouldn't label women as crazy just because you deem their behaviour to be inappropriate. It's so patronising. The article was simple I thought"

ME:  "When did I label you crazy though?"

HER:  "You don't have to. Everyone who knows me apparently does it already"

and then

HER:  "I'm really bored of this. What do I need to say or admit to make you stop texting me every day?"

I'd say that the conversation is consistent with her being untreated BPD ... .and you being a non- who hasn't studied tools for communicating with a pwBPD.

What are you looking for or expecting with/from her in the future?

• Resuming a romantic r/s?



• Going on to a non-romantic friendship?



• Getting an apology from her for withdrawing from you before your vacation?



• Getting an apology for this txt exchange?



• Something else or several of the above?

You sound pretty upset about the way she has treated you (understandable and appropriate!), and unclear about what you want.

What can we help you with here?

 GK

When I arrived home I was hoping to resume a romantic thing with her.

But now I don't as Im hurt and quite scared of her intense anger and emotional problems. I think now I would like to he at least friendly.

I don't think I'll ever get a real answer as to why she avoided me.

But what I haven't mentioned here is that just before she avoided me, I found out she went away to a science conference interstate with her ex girlfriend.

Worse... she lied and told me it was a "friend". She was very vague.

I had had heard her trash talk her ex for months and suddenly I find her ex has tagged her on facebook at the airport lounge! Her "friend" was her ex. I was really angry. And told her she didn't have to be so shady and could have told me.

Her responses were conflicted and she said:

"I'm really sorry. Nothing is going on, we are just friends and we just have an obscure shared interest in science. I didn't tell you cos I thought you'd freak out"

I was still angry.

Then she said "Well you react how you want to. I have apologised. We hasn't defined what we were doing and I didn't think it was important to tell you. I don't think I have really done anything to warrant this reaction".

It was true... we had not confirmed we were exclusive yet. But she had still lied to me and was shady. They were also sharing a room!

I was angry for a few days but then forgave her and it sounded like they were just friends.

But then she didn't want to see me. She avoided me for 3 weeks and pretended she was busy.

I left for Europe hurt and feeling rejected.

That's why her "I miss you" message when I came back was a surprise.

My friends actually think I'm crazy wanting to be friends with her!

Considering she lied about going away with an ex, avoided me, raged at me for asking why she had, accused me of calling her bipolar and a junkie, abused me via text message after I apologised, then continued to insult my character and then brush me off again when I asked her to clarify her messages.

I honestly can't answer as to why I care about this woman. :/

Also, after she raged at me the other week, she told me she was "devastated" that she hurt me and it wasn't her intention. And added " I wouldn't give me this much energy to be honest though".

Is this self pity? And is using the word "devastated" a little extreme? Could it be true she feels that bad about lashing out at me?

I would guess that it is true.

This disorder comes complete with very intense sincere feelings... .followed almost immediately with equally intense, sincere feelings that somehow contradict the prior ones. And no real ability to notice that there is a disconnect or contradiction built into it.

You might get a real answer why she avoided you... .but it won't be one that makes much sense to you!

right, she has symptoms of BPD or something like it, mood instability, fear of perceived abandonment, impulsivity, etc. you are experiencing what BPD feels like in a relationship. we all have experienced similar behaviors with our partners, it can be mind blowing, we understand.

what would you like to do? she is who she is. this is not going to change. this experience is giving you good information so that you can make sound decisions for yourself.

is she really feeling devestated? the feelings are intense and very changeable, she may feel huge love for you on Monday, hate you on Wed, and feel devestated about a fight on Friday. She may not remember the fight by Sunday. this is BPD, there are perceptual and cognitive distortions, memory is also often affected.

you may need time to let this sink in.

So, what would be helpful for you right now?

Hi there

I feel like ever since I came back from Europe, she has got worse.      She never lashed out at me via text or grossly misinterpreted things. Also, her moods were never this intense and changeable.

She was definitely moody and quite sad and hyper and did read too into things... but this is on a whole different level now.  So it is quite shocking for me to come home and find her like this.  When I was dating her, she was also more into me and flirtatious... wanted to see me regularly.

If I am correct, this sounds like splitting. But every now and then she apologizes     so it's been so confusing.

I just wanted to be on friendly terms with her and I told her this. But we did agree to leave things be for a while. I think a part of me has found it hard to ignore her insults or self-victimising comments to be honest.

When I have said "One day we can be friends hopefully. Hope you have a great day"... she will say the same but throw in "I know you didn't mean to attack me... ."  or "you make me act defensively"  or "you have a knack for finding my insecurities"

It's also part of my personality to want to solve things.  If someone has an issue with me- I want to know what it is and how I can resolve it.  This has been my attitude with her too. I haven't ignored her comments at all.

Her messages have baited me to respond (I feel)  as I think she knows that I am a 'fixer' personality.

I do feel my message was firm and to the point. It's true I feel very tired over being blamed for the way others treat her and being sent these self-victimising messages that bait a response. Yet when I respond in a way she dislikes- she won't hesitate in letting me know. And the other day resorted to telling me she is trying to ignore me.

I am not sure I will hear from her again... . 

I don't think I can be friends with her if she has 'split me' in this way as well...

 I do feel that my message will be badly received by her. If she feels such intense emotions and also thought I insult her regularly - when I haven't... .and then even felt my apology was "nasty"... .I can't image what a firm message like that would do to her!

Her silence is quite deafening. And I am finding it hard not to text her and say "I'm sorry if that seemed harsh... "   

But I also feel *a little* like I contradicted myself... .

I had sent her a peace message 2 weeks ago saying "Hi there. If we can be friends one day, it would help if I know what can upset you. I'm quite understanding"... .

Do you think her sending that article to me, was her way of trying to open up more? trying to show me that this is why she is upset... because people think she is 'crazy' and her feelings are misunderstood? And that she doesn't want me to view her this way too?

And I then shut her down (mainly because I felt insulted and she also told me she is trying to ignore me) instead of showing her patience and understanding how she might feel (like I said I would earlier)?

I am thinking of maybe sending her a Merry Christmas message later

You dated her for 2 months back in August.

You aren't really in a relationship with her.

She is showing you who she is.

You seem really hooked into her and anxious for someone you don't know very well or very long. Did you read the article here about how a BPD relationship begins?

You can't fix another person. It's not your job. You can't fix her or her perceptions.

All counsel and tools provided on this board are really geared toward helping you to take care of yourself,  to understand and provide for your own well being... .to fix yourself, so to speak, not another person.

You won't be able to fix her. Understanding and addressing your own anxiety and pull toward this person would be helpful; that's something you can fix and have some control over. You only have control over yourself, not your ex.

well, the other thing is... when she was raging she said to me "I don't know what you're trying to get out of this. If you were clear it would help... but you like me, you hate me, you have inane conversations with me and get mad at me. It's confusing!"   

and that's the second time she has told me she doesn't know "what I'm trying to get out of this"... and this was after I had called her to apologise.

It seems like she feels targeted by me or something.

I guess I am confused as to what to do next, if anything.

She only told me 3 weeks ago she misses me... and then in her rage told me have "nothing in common and bring no benefits to each others lives". And then we made up... and apologised to each other and said we would leave things be and then she started insulting me again and sent me that article.

A part of me feels like giving it a week more of silence. And then checking in to see how she is... I am concerned for her mental health. That's all. But I don't know if I will hear back now

you are right Maybeso... I know I can't fix anyone.

I think the reason I have put up with all of this, is because I am inherently a 'fixer' personality. I could have ignored her ages ago... I could have ignored her insults and lash outs.

Instead... I've analysed them... .tried to make sense of her and get to the bottom of why she is so angry at me. When she can hardly explain it herself. She's the one who told me "I don't feel myself around you and I don't know what it is you say/do".

Even this comment is something I have wanted to analyse! I've been thinking "why? what do I do to make her feel so uncomfortable? what can I do better to make her feel comfortable? Do I need to change something in me?"   

probably you need to work on acceptance... .acceptance  that this is a disorder.  that it's real. and that it has little or nothing to do with you specifically.

there are coping tools and communication tools to help navigate the confusing waters of BPD... but they take a lot of commitment, and time... .it's an investment.  often those here are deep into a r/s already or married with kids etc. by the time they get here.

this disorder exists. you happened to meet someone with it. it happens.

I'm sorry. it's a hard reality to accept.

Well, to be honest I don't know if she has BPD. She hasn't been diagnosed as far as I know. I am only assuming she is.

It did cross my mind she may be back on drugs. She told me she used to be addicted to speed. And I was aware that she was having the odd joint and pill when she was dating me.

Maybe she is on drugs again and trying to stabilise her moods...

Thing is... .it seems she has a lot of friends and she is a school teacher!

It's hard for me to believe she maintains other relationships. Let alone a job teaching kids...

Can BPDs have lots of friends and be normal at work but show their true selves in intimate relationships?

I feel quite alone suddenly. Like I am the only one who has "seen the beast". Everyone else thinks she is normal and happy and stable. But I know her!

Although she did tell me that apparently everyone she knows thinks she is crazy.

Not sure if that's true.

I just find it hard to believe she has many friends and her family are lovely and she is a school teacher caring for children. And they haven't all experienced her extreme behaviour.

And she's so cruel to me who hasn't done anything.

It does feel lonely

we like to think it's maybe just all us... .cause it keeps us in a state of false hope and the illusion that we can change them

does it matter if it's BPD? or addiction to drugs? or just a bad fit?

what does it really matter... . the name you give it

it still doesn't change anything.

there are a lot of high functioning folks whose symptoms aren't glaring in public or in casual settings or at work... .

but in intimate attachment relationship ... .things are quite difficult and confusing

She feels everyone thinks she is crazy...

I think you have your answers, maybe you just are not ready yet to fully absorb it. this is pretty common, you are not alone.

what were you focused on and interested in and pleased with in your own life before you met this person?

Fair enough... I understand your point of view.

Do you think a follow up message is a good idea to keep the peace?

God knows I've tried to keep the peace for the past 3 weeks and its blown up in my face. Or she's given me backhanded apologies.

I feel my message was good but also a bit harsh for someone like her.

What you describe (BPD or not!) has very little chance of you finding peace in response to anything you say to her. If you decide to have no contact, you can get silence, but that is different from peace. You have to find your own peace, whether you stay with her or stay apart from her.

What kind of peace do you have now that you are trying to keep?

Hi Greykitty. You ask a good question actually... I don't have any peace to 'keep'!     

I've made many attempts at trying to be friends and keep the peace... .and failed.

So to recap... .after her lash out via text, I had called her leaving a message saying I was hurt and confused at her reaction and that we should try to be peaceful or friendly if possible.

She had calmed down and said she was "devastated" she had upset me and not to 'waste too much energy' on her. I then said I didn't want to upset her any more so perhaps we shouldn't talk on phone for a while etc.

And she said "do you mean we should leave things be for a while?"  and I said yes and reiterated I wanted to be her friend, but just felt a bit stressed at the messages I received as well.

This obviously made her defensive again and she said "I agree. I'm not thick skinned enough to deal with your messages"  and "I'm sorry I reacted like that. I know you didn't mean to attack me, you just have a knack for finding my insecurities! have a lovely day"

Unfortunately- I did not let this go. 

I could have ignored it and stuck to my plan of leaving her be for a while. But I responded saying  "I know you have insecurities, but haven't known what triggers them. If we can be friends one day, it would help to know what upsets you. I'm pretty understanding"

and this triggered her to say she doesn't know what is is I say/do but I 'make' her feel defensive and not herself.

Her opening up to me then triggered ME to respond and be defensive and say that I can't be made responsible for someone else's emotions. Which THEN set her off again. And on a path of victimhood by sending me the article about labelling women crazy 

And this then made me defensive again and I responded with a harsh text.

SO... really... I should have ignored her baiting messages all along.  How do we become better at ignoring the baiting and self destructive messages?

I think if I learned to ignore these, I would be in a better position to be her friend or at least on friendly terms.

I can see now that I have responded to all her baiting messages... .

And in some way, I think she knows I am a bit weak and will respond and give her the attention she needs.  But then she shuts me down if I don't respond in a way she likes.

Had I ignored her- she would have self soothed... . 

I think I only have 2 choices... to just give up on our 'friendship' or trying to be peaceful.

Or to contact her with a nice message (not mentioning ANYTHING about her emotions and how she has upset me... ) and say that I am sorry to hear others view her poorly and hope she has a great weekend.

My friend told me... if I write her a nice message, she will respond nicely but likely throw in an insult of how I hurt her. And I can then choose to ignore that but at least I sent her a nice message and took the 'high road'... . 

Diana, are you finding ways to soothe yourself?  To get lost in your own life, where all of this drama takes a backseat?


Can I ask how you'd feel receiving this message from her?  Would you think it was a nice message?  Or would you be scratching your head wondering what she means by it? 

What are you truly trying to convey to her; how would you like her to interpret your message?  And how would you like this relationship to develop?

When we get clear with ourselves it's easier to express our desires... .

I want her to know that I know she has "issues"  but that I don't view her as "crazy".   And that I honestly want good things for her.

She has many good qualities and was very generous to me while we were dating. I don't view her as malicious. I feel she definitely has a disorder but is unfortunately not willing to seek help for it and just views herself as being sensitive or such.

I have been distracted by her 'baiting' style messages and have taken a lot of it personally as it's hard not to. And have tried to rationalise with her when it's clear I can't.

I just don't know how to let her know this, without engulfing her or making her explode again... .

I know it sounds odd but I want to be on friendly terms with her for my own peace. I'm not saying I want to get back into something with her as I think now that would never work out.

I am the type of person who hates leaving things on bad terms. I don't tend to cut people off either.

I wish I'd never asked her why she now misses me after she avoided me. I started a war 

I should have just accepted her "I miss you" message and taken it in my stride. Let her come to me if she missed me.

It's part of my personality to try to understand people and their behaviour, esp if it doesn't make any sense to me.

I'm also aware of people trying to play games with me (which I thought was the case at the time).  But in the last 3 weeks, I've witnessed emotional deregulation like I've never know. This isn't someone who is playing games deliberately... she's unwell.

So I am wondering how to stay friendly with someone emotionally unwell.

Time for you to work on accepting some things.

She doesn't have to be "friendly" with you if she doesn't want to. Doesn't matter if you want it.

In addition, with BPD, she is unlikely to interact with you in a purely friendly and simple way. This push-pull dynamic is what she will do. With commitment and practice on your part, you can find ways to reduce the impact of this on you, and perhaps the magnitude of it eventually.

Accept that this is who she is, and she isn't going to change, any time soon, if ever. What contact do you want with her as she is?

The more clear you are on what you want with her, the better off you are, and the better and cleaner your interactions with her will be.

Wanting her to understand your motivations, intentions, or feelings is not going to help you that way.

(cross posted with Grey Kitty)


What is the purpose of wanting her to know that you know she has issues?


 

Can you find a way to accept it in your heart that she has issues, since you honestly want good things for her, without telling her flat out?  Protect yourself from her issues.

well after her initial lash out text session which resulted in me being hurt and confused... she added that she was "destroyed" from this.

I thought it was a bit over the top at the time and responded by saying "destroyed? I'm sad to hear this. I had no intention of starting a fight or making you upset. I'm sending you a virtual hug. Hope you have a nice Friday :)"

she said "thanks for my hug. I'm really sorry I reacted. I know you didn't mean to attack me, you just have a knack for finding my insecurities. Hope your day is lovely"


... .at this point I should have just LEFT it alone.  My bad.


Instead, I wanted to know WHY I 'find' her insecurities... what I do to make her this way. So i responded saying I didn't know what triggers her insecurities but I am understanding etc.

So I suppose I opened up a can of worms by asking her to elaborate!   


On some level, I feel that I contradicted myself by getting angry at her for sending me that article about labelling women as crazy. This felt like her way of opening up to me after I showed patience and understanding.

This is why I feel a bit bad

Ok... yes, maybe telling her I know she has issues will inflame her!  eek. She knows I know she has issues anyway- that's why she sent me the article.

I'm thinking of sending her a final nice message but then disengaging... .

just because the last message I sent her was a bit harsh (for someone with BPD).

I could say in a week maybe  "I'm sorry others think of you this way and I'm sorry if my message sounded a bit harsh. I want good things for you and I hope you have a great Christmas break"

do you think this might be a good way to end things?  and if she responds with another backhanded message, I can just ignore it

What do you mean by a good way to "end things?"

Do you mean end your r/s with her? If so, no, it doesn't sound like a clear goodbye at all.

Or do you mean just try to end the current fight by txt message?

Sorry I meant end the fight

I don't see us ever dating again.

I feel like I've been split.

But it might be possible to be on friendly terms again...

I just wish i hadn't retaliated to our message. I could have just remained calm.

I've shown that I can be super emotional too

not sure if I mentioned this to you in this thread here... but I saw her riding her bike down my street last week when we were fighting! 

I don't know why she was... as she lives on the other side of the city and it would take her an hour to cycle to my suburb. And she doesn't know anyone in my street area (that I know of).

I told my friends this and they are not surprised and said "nothing surprises me with her"  and that she probably was stalking me or wanted me to ask her if that was her. More 'baiting'... .

Do you think I should ask why she was riding down my street? or not bother... .

The curiosity is killing me!  lol

A big  , Diana.

Its such a hard place with all these thoughts.

Thanks Surnia 

I guess if I do send her a nice message, I must be prepared to either be ignored or to receive another "I'm sorry too, you just make me act so bad"  message back.

In which I will need to have willpower not to respond to. 

my issue is that I have not just let things be.

But I think now I know that she has severe emotional issues and I feel more aware (esp with BPD symptoms). I may be able to resist the urge to respond if she does come back with something passive aggressive... .

I've wanted to send her this tips article for South America travel for ages.

She is going to South America for the first time soon.

We always had travel in common... .

I was thinking of sending it to her along with the "hope you're alright" message.

Maybe this could establish a friendship and at least wont centre around the fight or her issues.

Do you that may be a good way to be friendly?

Diana, this is one thing you can work on.  |iiii

You cannot change her. You cannot make things undone. Imagine you would like float in the water. The more you will move and swing your arms and legs in all directions the more you will sink and panic will increase. Trying to roll on your back, very smoothly and calm, and you will float easily.

This is true...

I tend to panic when people are upset with me. I like harmony  *)

I think it would make me feel better to send her a nice message.  I have consistently been nice and I don't believe she is malicious. I believe she has issues and is undiagnosed.

I think being assertive and having boundaries is good though. You shouldn't have to put up with abuse...

*mod*

This thread has reached the 4 page limit - and locked.

Please feel free to start another one. :)