BPDFamily.com

Hi all,

I was wondering if any of you have an SO with co-morbid BPD and NPD? Although I am no longer with my ex, (apologies for hijacking this board) I was wondering if, with this diagnosis, they are highly resistant to treatment as he is? He refuses to get any help, as he is almost afraid to talk to a "stranger" about his personal life.  Also what symptoms arise?  I have difficulty understanding how someone with BPD could have been so controlling.  He almost needs to be idolised by people who he cares about and is triggered when these people see his dark side, if that makes sense?

May I ask you has your daughter got eating disorder as well? How often she cuts herself?

Now I guess that if you consider the overlap and the PD's exists on a bit of a continuum, maybe high functiontioning BPD = covert/stealth NPD.  Kind of like a blend of BPD lite and NPD lite.

The impression I tend to get is that a high functioning pwBPD is almost like a wannabee pwNPD except without the consistency. Underneath they still fear their inadequacies so tend to come across as a bit of a 'try hard' facade. Whereas a NPD just assumes the sun shines out of their proverbial.

Obibens


The Borderline carries tremendous toxic shame from never having felt worthy of love since infancy/early childhood. They've lived with sensations of having to buy a parent's love (getting 'em expensive gifts, visiting when they really don't want to, etc.) to gain approval and acceptance. They've done this with you, as well. Each time they've acted adorable, generous and seductive, it's to get their deep need for validation met--which has nothing to do with You!

My undiagnosed ex had strong symptoms of both BPD and NPD.

Unlike a true NPD he was indeed highly sensitive to criticism and rejection. He himself was highly and often viciously critical of others, particularly his partners! He was beautiful, sexy and extremely charming with poor impulse control, an addiction to sex and dope, and a tendency to tantrums. Those look to me like BPD traits.

The NPD side came out in a tendency to intellectual arrogance, blatantly hypocritical moral lectures and philosophical monologues. He could not bear to be interrupted, and expected a mute audience for his words of wisdom  . He was an absolute master of projection.

Surrender btw the shame and self hatred comes out quite rarely with my ex. He expressed a bit of it during his regret phase these last few months. Calling himself a loser, saying he should be able to support a family and have a job etc. He's messed up a lot of his own life though with his ridiculous expectations and laziness and I don't think his enabling family who treat him as if he is 14 have helped.

He tends to stay in the shame phase only for short periods, often only for minutes, and then revert to rage or his nastiest phase, a defensive posture I call the 'High Priest'. He will deliver cold, high-handed moral lectures which are astonishingly patronising and often emphasise his own special efforts and martyrdom  (because he always represents himself as a lone struggling hero, whose work goes mostly unrewarded). That, I find the most repulsive persona he has. I would prefer outright verbal abuse.

Well, I will  not get any more of it now. He called me a stalker and threatened me with police before he blocked me last week, a sign he is truly painting black and has to see me as a lunatic threat. That's what he did last time. So I might hear from him in a few months or not at all, but I will never go to see him. The only way I will see him is if he turns up on my doorstep, which I sure hope does not happen. It would frighten me to see him again.

LOL. My ex felt shameful, a 'whore'. He also frankly was a bit of a 'whore' (not that I look down on sex workers etc and liberal people, good for them! Just can't think of another word for his hangup). He had been really promiscuous, slept with prostitutes a lot and basically anything that came on to him (and he was handsome so that was a LOT of women... . ) once admitted to me he would 'f*** anything on two legs'  :) I quite liked that side of him, the frankness, fair enough I thought  :) but then the shame would come out, and project RIGHT onto me! Argh. That wasn't sexy at all.  lol

So, in his mind I became the promiscuous whorish 'him.' I'm liberal enough but I do NOT 'f*** anything on two legs', I never have. But god did he seek the evidence that I did, including in the past :/ All  his other long term gfs had been virgins... .  red-flag  (control freakery anyone?)  I couldn't stand that bloody projection, it was one of the many things that led me to really decide never to go back to him.

It's like we all have the same script in varying degrees

Urgh... . sm15000 I work in the field of feminist theory and that makes me shudder.

These 'clever' abusers are the worst for creating a fragile screen of manipulative excuses for their behaviour. They create narratives which they use to protect themselves from guilt and also to gain allies. It is quite frightening because it is so easy to believe them at first

The NPD side came out in a tendency to intellectual arrogance, blatantly hypocritical moral lectures and philosophical monologues. He could not bear to be interrupted, and expected a mute audience for his words of wisdom  . He was an absolute master of projection. For instance, while cheating on me he accused me repeatedly of infidelity and delivered lectures to me about how to be 'free from hate' etc. He is a terrible dope addict but used to lecture me for my 'drinking problem' (I drink way less than the average British woman  ). He cannot tolerate guilt and shame, but feels deep down that he is a failure, had big dreams for himself and varies between blaming himself for failing in them (rarely) and lashing out at people who have 'let him down'. Thinks of himself as one of the 'pioneers' of his academic field, that he deserves accolades and an audience, treated me with incredible entitlement. At one point said I should be happy to be sharing my money and home with 'an artist'  .

He really was quite the nightmare wasn't he... . writing it down really makes me laugh, what the hell have I put up with for 3 years. I must be an angel... or a lunatic 

' Perhaps the thing I hate the most is when he set me up to confide in him all my personal details of past experiences. At that time I didn't know he was ill and so couples will share their history together sometimes but had I known that he was collecting data to use against me from now on, had I known his illness I would never have confided in him anything that could be used against me. '

Oh God Surrender it made me shudder to read that... . all the confidences I gave him during pillow talk and moments of intimacy... . things he would say nothing about or accept, and then use as part of his arsenal to condemn me... .

at the start of my relationship with my ex BPD gf i told her everything as i wanted no secrets, over the course of the relationship she often said she couldn't trust me as a result of my honesty, then when she tried suicide it came out that there was a shed load she hadn't told me about her past, her debts, etc etc!

Surrender I admire your tenacity and fortitude, I tried to put it back on her after she went NC with me, i sent her a long e mail about what i had discovered about npd / BPD and recognised that we both had traits. Given that she maintained that she had been trying to heal i thought she would be open, how wrong was I! I went around to talk to her, she slammed the door in my face and called the police! in her case sadly she is so defended that she would clearly rather die than face her issues, hence the suicide attempt driven by narcisistic rage after I left her. I genuinely and lovingly wanted to help her, but if I then refer to the lonely child ( me ) BPD analysis elsewhere on the site it perfectly explained that it was impossible at this point for us to go back sadly. I dont think about her as much now a year on but the episode nearly destroyed me.

Here is the quote, its the most accurate i have found - In some relationships, the idealization phase is the partner being in lonely child stance and the Borderline being in abandoned child stance.*Both need saving* Both need attachment to stave off the pain of being alone.  This is one type of bonding seen in this community.

In this bond, both people bring core trauma to the relationship. Mirroring reenacts the earliest childhood experiences to rise up and emerge into consciousness.

In idealization, there is a dual identification and projection for both people that they have found a perfect love- however, one partner (the “lonely child”) does not yet realize that the other partner (the abandoned child= Borderline) has no whole self- and is utilizing a fantasy of a part-time good in order to fuse with the partner's part time good and become one.

The lonely child has spent much of their life becoming “one.”  When a lonely child finds an abandoned child, both parties feel needed. However, rather than truly loving the individuality of both parties- the sad, fantasy aspect of mirroring magnifies the unhealthy *needs* of both people.

When the lonely child begins to question the reality of mirroring (reality testing) this raises core traumas into activation concerning both the questioning (uncertainty) and the hope (unfulfilled expectations) of the unrealistic attachment. "Lack of inherent trust" is found in both parties at this stage.

Reality testing causes the lonely child to pull away because certain things don't add up- as you say, "the idealization phase slowly erodes."

Pulling away, even while in the lap of comfortable luxury- triggers the abandoned child issues of the Borderline. This causes panic reactions of clinging behaviors by the Borderline to prevent the retreat of their desired love object. These immature demands can look like entitlement to others, especially to a lonely child, who has learned early on to be self sufficient and to self soothe- but the entitlement markers are highly charged and emotional to a Borderline, which isn’t Narcissistic grandiosity- it’s ego deficiency and panic.

The entitlement phase brings a hidden "angry and aggressive child" out from hibernation and into full view and this usually occurs when the lonely child least expects it.  The angry child that emerges is pissed and has delusions of persecution that are ideas of reference from earlier childhood trauma. It’s at this point that the angry child (Borderline) will become enraged and try to cast off shame.  They may attempt to harm himself/herself in order to scapegoat the lonely child- who unwittingly stands-in for the earliest attachment.  This triggers the lonely child's trauma from their earliest attachment as well.

The Borderline wants so badly to be whole that they demand that the lonely child create wholeness for them- which the partner succeeds in doing early on but then relaxes. The Borderline temper tantrum, with its ideas of reference being so very childlike and fantastic, perceives the relaxation of the partner as though the attachment is split up. In order to cope, the Borderline must now find another part time perceived good object to self medicate the emotions of feeling badly from the split.  If this cannot be accomplished, the surge of limbic fear concerning anger and abandonment causes such great pain that self harm is often inflicted for relief.

The lonely child is often very surprised by this. The anger and dysregulation are in contrast to what he/she perceives are necessary for the circumstances. (The lonely child fails to see need disguised as "love."  Therefore, the lonely child seeks to understand the Borderlines ideas of reference concerning "love" in order to cope with the neediness and begins a line of questioning.  The Borderline retreats.

Lonely child is "understanding driven" and gets drawn into the Borderline acting out. The lonely child now has a mystery- the Borderline dilemma of "who am I?" This is very likely the same way that the lonely child came into existence as an “understanding driven” child. Especially when he questioned the motives of his earliest attachments during infancy and adolescence.

The lonely child *understands* the need to be held, loved and understood – because that’s what he longs for in others. The lonely child feels that in order to deal with acting out of the Borderline- the lonely child must project the aura of grace, compassion and understanding upon the Borderline and also guide, teach and show the way- because after all, that’s what the lonely child would want someone to do for him. There was a large reason that the initial mirroring (of this fixer /rescuer ego) worked so well in the idealization stage- the relationship really WAS the projection of lonely child that was mirrored, not the deficient ego of the Borderline.

In the "upside down" world of the Borderline, the lonely child is the perfect attachment to fuse to and the hypersensitive Borderline is the perfect mystery for the lonely child to try to understand.  This is the reactivation of a childhood dynamic- that forms a needy bond.

The Borderline is a perfect template with which to *project* and identify with as a good object and also one to invest in to feel better about the “self.”

The understanding driven lonely child "imagines" (projects) onto the Borderline what he/she feels the Borderline identifies with. The lonely child often fills in the blanks with projective identification and the Borderline attempts to absorbs this- but it's impossible to appear as a self-directed person while taking cues and mirroring another self directed partner.

The Borderline scrambles to keep up with what is projected in a chameleon like manner.  All of this pressure to adapt and conform to the projection smothers and defeats the Borderline’s yearning for a perfect bond and triggers engulfment failure. 

Engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame.  Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche. The attachment failure has now become shame based for the Borderline.  It will soon become guilt driven for the lonely child partner.

Engulfment makes Borderlines very frustrated and angry- but Borderlines fear abandonment and choose to stuff away their fear and compulsively attempt to manage their pain. The impulsive gestures are a form of self harm that fixes the bond in a permanent chaos of action/reaction. 

Borderlines can be avoidant and passive aggressive and will do everything in their power to hide their strong emotions until they implode.  They swing wildly from abandoned child to angry child until they deflate into detached protector- who is basically a mute that doesn’t speak- or worse, speaks in word salad when confronted.

The swinging dysregulation pattern is unable to be separated and individuated and self directed. Because it cannot be self directed, it cannot be self soothed. There is no ability to defer these emotions to logic and reasoning with introspection *without* another person to blame.  This is where Borderlines are showing you the maturity stage at which they are developmentally arrested and remain stuck and frightened.

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Devaluing is the BPD going into the punitive parent role to switch up the control ~ control was relinquished in the idealisation phase so we will attach. The further along we get in the rs ~ the BPD then feels like we are the persecutor for their failing part time self ~ devalue. Devaluing is more about projection ~ because there failing self makes them feel woeful, scared, fearful.

We all have punitive parents that exist in our heads. This is our Superego.  The criticism felt by both parties exists as guilt and shame inside our heads. This tape plays over and over and is a re-working of former traumas. It is also a huge part of what makes complementary traumas so attractive as binding agents to each other.  The lonely child has the “tyrannical shoulds” while the abandoned child has defectiveness schema- together they interact and drive each other crazy.

The understanding driven child cannot fathom how another human being does not have a “self.”  The understanding driven child has had much childhood experience with strong selves and has created a self to understand the motives of others. Lonely children have a need to have some sort of control over their destiny because so much was out of control in their childhood.

The Borderline’s idea of destiny is being attached to others for protection. The Borderline cannot fathom what it means to have a stand alone “self.”

Both parties are human “doing” for others rather than being- but there is more impulsivity in Borderline in the “offering” of themselves as objects.  (The lonely child is very particular concerning who he gives his heart to and makes decisions based upon careful consideration.)

The failure to find a healthy mature love activates the punitive parent in both people’s psyche- one for persecution and the other for failure to understand others (cloaked in rescuing behaviors)- this is the “flea” of each others psychiatric trauma that really is a very strong obsessive bond, and one of endless victimization for both parties unless one or the other becomes understanding driven toward self direction.  Guess who has the best chance?  Unfortunately, the mirrored good that the Borderline provided was a very strong drug- and the obsession is outwardly projected (as it always has been) by the lonely child in order to understand and consequently, control it.

It’s at this point that spying, engaging in testing and push/pull behaviors occur as both parties fight for control. Each pours salt in the others core wound.

The understanding driven child tries to understand the Borderline and the Borderline feels misunderstood and persecuted. The understanding driven child retreats to repair their ego and the Borderline lashes out and tries to shame him. The pendulum swings back and forth in clinging and hating and disordered thought and chaos. 

The lonely child tries to uncover what they think the Borderline is hiding from them (triggering bouts of paranoia) or missing (creating dependency issues.)  The angry child threatens to destroy the relationship (as well as themselves = self harm) which triggers immense anger and outrage for both parties. Their love object is broken.

Both parties are in pain- and their egos are easy to "pinch" because they both fear abandonment.   At this point, both core traumas are exposed and the partners are no longer interacting with each other except to arouse each other’s trauma wounds from childhood.

The false self of the lonely child, that the Borderline mirrored, has more ego- as it is directly tied to a “self” which involves coping mechanisms from childhood that mirrored back good.  It was a self that was capable and seeming to have all the answers in the beginning.  When the Borderline tries to destroy it as a failed attachment, it begins to crumble and the lonely child retreats and tries to repair it- essentially wounded to the core. This is also part and parcel of the injury of the smear campaign- and the lonely child may try to return to defend the "self" from being attacked.

Trauma for the lonely child occurs mainly because of perceived failure they cannot “understand” enough (essentially an obsession at this point) and trauma for the Borderline occurs because of anger and abandonment and shame that existed since infancy- and persecution by their inner parent superego for not becoming whole. 

At this point, both parties feel like failures.

Unfortunately, the repair for the lonely child’s self consists of trying again to fix the Borderline "mirror" to reflect the good.  Many attempts will be made by the lonely child (once again) to effect an outcome other than the failed attachment.  The lonely child will try to re-build the self and get the love object (Borderline) to return and resume their compliant mirroring.

Eventually, the fantasy begins to unravel for the lonely child, that they are alone- and the person that the lonely child fell in love with, (the person in the mirror,) was actually YOU.

Who really is the Borderline? Someone who needed you for awhile because they were scared to be alone.

They’re still scared. Forgive them if you can- they are modern day recreations of their own childhood fears.

Now- after reading all of this- You can’t keep going back for more trauma.   The trauma bond must be broken.

After we've let fantasy go- we can turn the focus to healing.  It's good to wonder what our attraction must have been to this person. Whatever clues you have are generally good enough to give you reason that you’ve had experience with this type of personality before- perhaps within your family of origin.

Stop yourself from thinking that you’ve never been treated so poorly before this relationship. When you catch yourself saying you can't believe it. Stop and think. Chances are- you’ve just chosen to repress a few circumstances from childhood that were traumatic. Now the feelings are back on the surface and you’re going to have to address them.

Introspection involves a great pain. Let those feelings come up. Journal your thoughts when you feel anxious. Learn about yourself. We must address the pain from our childhood that has been left unresolved for too long. We cannot escape from pain if we are to have personal growth- and you've got to get this relationship out of the way in order to get at the real hurt.

Radical acceptance comes when you realize that what was mirrored really wasn’t you- it was what *you wanted others to give to you*   It was <<Understanding.>>

Try to give that to yourself.

In the "upside down" world of the Borderline, the lonely child is the perfect attachment to fuse to and the hypersensitive Borderline is the perfect mystery for the lonely child to try to understand.  This is the reactivation of a childhood dynamic- that forms a needy bond.

The Borderline is a perfect template with which to *project* and identify with as a good object and also one to invest in to feel better about the “self.”

The understanding driven lonely child "imagines" (projects) onto the Borderline what he/she feels the Borderline identifies with. The lonely child often fills in the blanks with projective identification and the Borderline attempts to absorbs this- but it's impossible to appear as a self-directed person while taking cues and mirroring another self directed partner.

The Borderline scrambles to keep up with what is projected in a chameleon like manner.  All of this pressure to adapt and conform to the projection smothers and defeats the Borderline’s yearning for a perfect bond and triggers engulfment failure.  

Engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame.  Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche. The attachment failure has now become shame based for the Borderline.  It will soon become guilt driven for the lonely child partner.

Engulfment makes Borderlines very frustrated and angry- but Borderlines fear abandonment and choose to stuff away their fear and compulsively attempt to manage their pain. The impulsive gestures are a form of self harm that fixes the bond in a permanent chaos of action/reaction.  

The swinging dysregulation pattern is unable to be separated and individuated and self directed. Because it cannot be self directed, it cannot be self soothed. There is no ability to defer these emotions to logic and reasoning with introspection *without* another person to blame.  This is where Borderlines are showing you the maturity stage at which they are developmentally arrested and remain stuck and frightened.