Characteristics of co-morbid BPD and NPD?

[Mazda]

Hi all,

I was wondering if any of you have an SO with co-morbid BPD and NPD? Although I am no longer with my ex, (apologies for hijacking this board) I was wondering if, with this diagnosis, they are highly resistant to treatment as he is? He refuses to get any help, as he is almost afraid to talk to a "stranger" about his personal life.  Also what symptoms arise?  I have difficulty understanding how someone with BPD could have been so controlling.  He almost needs to be idolised by people who he cares about and is triggered when these people see his dark side, if that makes sense?

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[waverider]

Hi all,

I was wondering if any of you have an SO with co-morbid BPD and NPD? Although I am no longer with my ex, (apologies for hijacking this board) I was wondering if, with this diagnosis, they are highly resistant to treatment as he is? He refuses to get any help, as he is almost afraid to talk to a "stranger" about his personal life.  Also what symptoms arise?  I have difficulty understanding how someone with BPD could have been so controlling.  He almost needs to be idolised by people who he cares about and is triggered when these people see his dark side, if that makes sense?

Sounds like high functioning BPD. NPD don't seem to care as much about what people think about them, they simply believe in themselves overly. Trying to get people to like them is BPD insecurity. Both are very unlikely to accept they have a problem or be open to treatment.

BPD controlling is more like proactive defense, ie they try to control to avoid being controlled. NPD simply believe in an entitlement to be the boss.

[Calm Waters]

my best mate was married to one of these and they used to go to couples counselling prior to divorce and after the sesssion she would shout at him ' why are you telling these lies to the therapist' they are totally impenetrable, I know my father is one too and last week whilst i was holding my mums hand whilst she died he said to my brother, have you finished the accounts for last year yet? They have no sensitivity or remorse in my experience

[Pearl55]

My husband is a high functionin BPD/NPD. He only cares about money. In fact he's a penny pincher. He doesn't care about anybody else.

[delusionalxox]

My undiagnosed ex had strong symptoms of both BPD and NPD.

Unlike a true NPD he was indeed highly sensitive to criticism and rejection. He himself was highly and often viciously critical of others, particularly his partners! He was beautiful, sexy and extremely charming with poor impulse control, an addiction to sex and dope, and a tendency to tantrums. Those look to me like BPD traits.

The NPD side came out in a tendency to intellectual arrogance, blatantly hypocritical moral lectures and philosophical monologues. He could not bear to be interrupted, and expected a mute audience for his words of wisdom  . He was an absolute master of projection. For instance, while cheating on me he accused me repeatedly of infidelity and delivered lectures to me about how to be 'free from hate' etc. He is a terrible dope addict but used to lecture me for my 'drinking problem' (I drink way less than the average British woman  ). He cannot tolerate guilt and shame, but feels deep down that he is a failure, had big dreams for himself and varies between blaming himself for failing in them (rarely) and lashing out at people who have 'let him down'. Thinks of himself as one of the 'pioneers' of his academic field, that he deserves accolades and an audience, treated me with incredible entitlement. At one point said I should be happy to be sharing my money and home with 'an artist'  .

He really was quite the nightmare wasn't he... . writing it down really makes me laugh, what the hell have I put up with for 3 years. I must be an angel... or a lunatic 

[Bulgakov]

The cluster-B PD's overlap quite a bit. All four of them overlap with what we call psychopaths or sociopaths. Antisocial PD is not necessarily psychopathy, it is more the behavioral side of psychopathy (from what I have read so far). I have read some interesting articles looking at various definitions of psychopathy/sociopathy in relation to personality disorders. A few of them seem to lend support to the idea of the cluster-B's and combinations of them representing a secondary psychopathy. BPD/HPD occurring more in women and NPD/APD occurring more in men (take that with a grain of salt). Many of the currently academic articles are looking at connections between PD's rather than narrowly diagnosing them. It is looking less and less like it is anywhere near as cut and dry as the DSM makes it look. Although few of us are trained to use it accurately, so there is that.

I am rambling. I guess I mean to say that I almost consider the disorder to be "Cluster B" and the PD's within to be slightly different representations of that, with a lot of mixing going on. I guess what scares me is the word psychopath or sociopath. I would consider a defining mark of these terms to be lack of remorse or empathy, which my pwBPD does not display all the time, but in some cases very much so. She has admitted to toying with people and likes to do it. It seems to make her feel powerful. Hell, she is playing me right now. On top of that she has grown increasingly narcissistic.

Please, someone correct me if any of this sounds ludicrous. I'm not trying to play teacher or anything, but I have found some real fascinating stuff with access to some academic databases.

[Pearl55]

Bulgakov

That's a great stuff. Most BPD's are extremely sadistic. When I read it I couldn't believe it but I witnessed a very sick pleasure in my husband's face when I was very angry on the phone with my solicitor. I was shocked and every time when I remember that sick face I actually shiver. Of course, he had his great mask on for 11 years, only he took his mask off in our last 2 years of marriage. The man behind his mask was too scary.

[Obibens]

Initially my What the heck moment had me thinking my uBPDw was a covert/stealth narcissist.  Only recently have I run across the term high functioning borderline.  BPD handn't even crossed my mind because my oldest daughter was diagnosed with BPD earlier this year (cutting, severe depression, irresponsibe, extremely impulsive).

Now I guess that if you consider the overlap and the PD's exists on a bit of a continuum, maybe high functiontioning BPD = covert/stealth NPD.  Kind of like a blend of BPD lite and NPD lite.

I can't say if that's better or worse.  In my daughter's case, it was a lot easier to see there was a PD issue here.   With my wife, well, heck I'm still trying to convince my self whether there is an issue or not.  In some ways its definately worse because hardly ANYONE outside of the immediate family sees that side of them and you end up thinking that the issue must be with you.

Sigh

[Pearl55]

Obiben

NPD is very similar to BPD but has lack of psychosis.

May I ask you has your daughter got eating disorder as well? How often she cuts herself?

[Obibens]

May I ask you has your daughter got eating disorder as well? How often she cuts herself?

She does not have an eating disorder (that I know of).  She did it twice earlier this year and that's what lead to her getting treatment/diagnosis.   During that she revealed that she has cut only sporadically over the few years before that. 

[waverider]

Now I guess that if you consider the overlap and the PD's exists on a bit of a continuum, maybe high functiontioning BPD = covert/stealth NPD.  Kind of like a blend of BPD lite and NPD lite.

The impression I tend to get is that a high functioning pwBPD is almost like a wannabee pwNPD except without the consistency. Underneath they still fear their inadequacies so tend to come across as a bit of a 'try hard' facade. Whereas a NPD just assumes the sun shines out of their proverbial.

ie one wants what the other assumes.

In reality though as stated, I don't think it is cut and dry

[Obibens]

The impression I tend to get is that a high functioning pwBPD is almost like a wannabee pwNPD except without the consistency. Underneath they still fear their inadequacies so tend to come across as a bit of a 'try hard' facade. Whereas a NPD just assumes the sun shines out of their proverbial.

What makes this so hard is that I think this inconsistency makes this almost impossible to pin down what in the heck is going on. In my SO, the NPD side believes she has been put here to show us lesser people exacty how to live.  And with the big issues (alchohol, drugs, infidelity, money wasting) she is dead on. The BPD side creates this 3rd persona to which all of this energy is directed - "us".  The trick to "us", it that it's not two seperate individuals with different ideas and feelings, but a single idealized persona that is a combination of her, what her perception of an ideal couple should be, and what she wishes I was.

A typical example of this would be the gifts I get most often at holidays, birthdays, anniversaries, etc. (assuming I've been 'good' enough recently to qualify for a gift).  It is always a gift for "us".  Hiking boots because she wants me to hike with her more.  A vacation alone with her somewhere.  The power tools I would need for that project she's been wanting me to do.  Exercise equipment to help me lose the weight that she claims she doesn't 'see' but would me me healthier.  Granted, none of these qualify as bad, thoughtless gifts.  I mean what guy really hates getting power tools, right?  But again, it's all driven by this ideal "us".  It's not usually something I would want just for me. 

For years I tried not to say anything, but this year she asked my why I didn't seem to like a surprise 'vacation' gift.  When I remarked that it seemed like that was something she wanted to do and not something I really wanted.  She replied by stating "How dare you way I'm doing this for me.  I'm doing this for 'us'.  I'm not selfish, it's just something for 'us'."  As soon as she said that it hit me that is something she has said for years - I just never really picked up on it.

Again, so subtle, but so baffling as well.

[elemental]

My ex husband, the narc, would get me gifts that he wanted. For example a very male type fountain pen. A boombox that he would take with him when he went places. So on.

My current boyfriend is one of those who doesn't buy a gift unless you are good enough lately to deserve one. I have been rather terrible and have not gotton one for the last 3 years. Birthdays are important to me, so it's kind of been a bummer. I have randomly gotton Christmas and Valentine's gifts. Since he is stuck in his drama, I am doubtful of a Valentine's acknowledgement this year.

[waverider]

Gifting is a dead give away for spotting PDs . There is often an agenda behind them. The most common is that it will be high profile, as they "want" something out of it, it is about them not you. Either, as stated, something they get an obvious benefit from, or more subtly for the praise/credit received.

A gift given for the praise factor will be high profile, often over the top luxury out of proportion to occasion, and given with as much fuss as possible. As in opposition to a quiet chore style gift which may be more useful to you but not so glamorous... . ie the gift has to provide high praise value for the least effort("Look what I do for you, aren't I generous". They will often want to by gifts for too many people for the most trivial of reasons.

It can be used as buying credit... "You can't say that about me after I bought you XXX the other day"

Ask for a loan/contribution for some essential run of the day item and you will either have no chance, or never hear the end of it.

[Changingman]

Bpd self loathing victim

Npd self loathing master

Overlap maybe coping tool works for both, BPD such up and down emotions they can't be consistent.

Both suffer lack of empathy, cannot love.

One because their emotions to big to care

One because they are cold emotionally

[Pearl55]

Obibens


The Borderline carries tremendous toxic shame from never having felt worthy of love since infancy/early childhood. They've lived with sensations of having to buy a parent's love (getting 'em expensive gifts, visiting when they really don't want to, etc.) to gain approval and acceptance. They've done this with you, as well. Each time they've acted adorable, generous and seductive, it's to get their deep need for validation met--which has nothing to do with You!

[Mazda]

Obibens


The Borderline carries tremendous toxic shame from never having felt worthy of love since infancy/early childhood. They've lived with sensations of having to buy a parent's love (getting 'em expensive gifts, visiting when they really don't want to, etc.) to gain approval and acceptance. They've done this with you, as well. Each time they've acted adorable, generous and seductive, it's to get their deep need for validation met--which has nothing to do with You!

Absolutely!  Whenever my ex got me a gift (in reality twice) it was always about him.  He waited until the end of the night to give it to me... . completely selfish on his part.  If I didn't appreciate it (which I really didn't, because although the gifts were thoughtful, the way in which they were given was so one sided that it killed the pleasure of receiving them), I was demanding, ungrateful and high maintenance.  In hindsight, it was completely narcissistic.  Sorry to keep posting on the staying board, but to be honest, I think there is a lot to be learnt from people who stay, are undecided or have left.  The fog has lifted for me now, and I am sure that some of you are still stuck in it, maybe even unaware.  It was only after I left and reflected for a long time before I realised the full extent of his manipulation.  My ex was high functioning, and will never get better, nor attempt to get better. My poor replacement.

[Surrender]

My undiagnosed ex had strong symptoms of both BPD and NPD.

Unlike a true NPD he was indeed highly sensitive to criticism and rejection. He himself was highly and often viciously critical of others, particularly his partners! He was beautiful, sexy and extremely charming with poor impulse control, an addiction to sex and dope, and a tendency to tantrums. Those look to me like BPD traits.

The NPD side came out in a tendency to intellectual arrogance, blatantly hypocritical moral lectures and philosophical monologues. He could not bear to be interrupted, and expected a mute audience for his words of wisdom  . He was an absolute master of projection.

In many ways you describe my UBPD bf who is now getting assessed and willing to get help. From what I noticed his NPD balances his shame and self-hatred. I've watched him closely for 3 years and have determined that he has a strange balance going on between the two in order to manage himself. He avoided ALL serious relationships because he couldn't deal with what it did to him... . until I came along and somehow he has made me his pillar of strength and his rock. I have watched him literally become undone when ever I try and pull away. He always says to me that he will either be with me or with no one.

I guess my question to you is how did you manage to escape? I believe I am equally just as co-dependent on my guy and for what ever strange reason we only feel that life is normal and okay if we are together.

[delusionalxox]

Surrender I do feel for you if you are with a man anything like my ex 

I struggled on with him for three years. On top of his/our emotional problems, I simply could not live with him because he was a demanding nightmare who refused to contribute financially. I was a full time working single mum, I would come home to find him in pyjamas smoking dope and/or wired up to the computer. He often insisted he was 'working really hard' but took an extra year to complete his PhD, did no teaching after his second year, etc (this is really v unusual in UK), expected me to look after him financially and domestically, acted like a total prince. Always giving lectures about my supposed faults and trying to control me, jealous, undermining etc. So I kicked him out and sent him to live back home in Italy   he is 37 and still living with parents. Less uncommon there, but go figure. He gets cooked/cleaned for, lives like the teenager he is in side.

He admits to none of this btw and instead claims that I was a vicious nightmare who just randomly insulted and dumped him for three years while he was an innocent knight in shining armour.

The long awful story of codependence is now, I think, almost entirely over.

He began detaching from me in April after the most wonderful holiday we ever had. He was behaving strangely calmly and nicely. I later found out that this was because he was preparing himself to leave me and move on, so he cared less about me. He began an affair 2 weeks later, then came to see me in May and I got pregnant on that visit. He went back and (I later found out) moved in with his new girlfriend. He sent me several angry texts and emails variously accusing me of infidelity and madness and ruining his life etc, then cut me dead when I was very depressed, calling me a 'psycho'. I then found out I was pregnant. He did not respond at all. Not a word of acknowledgement of the pregnancy.

I texted him a lot- sometimes abusively, god knows he did deserve it but it didn't help me to deal with my obsession- over those months. I had an abortion, he ignored it and my calls on the day to try to talk to him.

I gradually accepted that that was it, he would never speak to me again. To say I was devastated is an understatement. My world just fell apart, I couldn't sleep or eat or work at all. my mother nearly had me sectioned under the UK mental health laws as she was so worried about me. It was for me a true glimpse into the reality of evil. I wanted to die, couldn't see how I could go on living without the person who had obsessed me for so  many years. I loved him and hated him intensely.

Anyway... . at the end of August I got a text saying simply 'hi', then another claiming to be an explanation of his behaviour in disappearing. All self justificatory. I was delighted to hear from him and thought maybe we could be friends   I now see this as a sort of Stockholm Syndrome response. I was so glad my torturer had come back, now I wouldn't be alone again. Sick I know  I have my own sickness it's not just him. I shoudl have run a mile. But I went to see him in Italy. And found out from his own carelessness and Facebook that he had started the affair in April.

His reaction to me finding out was to yell at me for about 12 hours about how it was my fault, I had corrupted him, until he met me he had been a good person, etc. I had made him a liar, I had ruined his 'persona'. There were occasional flashes of guilt and unworthiness. He didn't even mention the pregnancy except to say he had feared I would 'use it against him'.

I went home after that in shock but somewhat better because I knew now, that all the hit and abuse he had been throwing at me since May was total projection.

he pursued me to come back to him for several months, up until Christmas. Insane. I am the abuser and bhit etc who ruined him and yet he begged me to come back. There were several apologies which always turned to defensiveness when I tried to explore his view of the situation.

his last word to me has been that all the projections are mine, I am bipolar (I am not) and 'bipolar is made of lies'. I said sorry for my part in it all, as a way of clearing the decks for closure. He took that to mean that I was offering to take responsibility for it all, but not enough. I had to agree that I was a total piece of hit who had deserved all I got from him.

I'm not buying that. He can go now.

One of the main things which helped me was staying away. Beffore I always lept on a plane when he turned on the long distance seduction routine. But I didn't do it this time. And he got bored and frustrated, and the true colours came out again. He abused me, withdrew all his apologies and finally cut me dead. Now I am all black again, and he is the high and mighty. He was doing a lot of righteous martyr stuff recently ('my attempts to communicate with you have all failed... . I cannot risk further damage... . I accept your apologies, I hope that makes you feel better... . I am alone with my problems and must look after myself first (!)... . etc)

It's all just sick eh and although i feel extremely empty and alone and still ruminate on the hit, I don't feel that craving for him any more because I broke the addiction. The sheer ungraciousness of his 'forgiveness' of me made me a bit sick in my mouth. I don't want to hate him, indifference is what I am aiming at. It will take a while but I am nearer to it than I was.

[delusionalxox]

Surrender btw the shame and self hatred comes out quite rarely with my ex. He expressed a bit of it during his regret phase these last few months. Calling himself a loser, saying he should be able to support a family and have a job etc. He's messed up a lot of his own life though with his ridiculous expectations and laziness and I don't think his enabling family who treat him as if he is 14 have helped.

He tends to stay in the shame phase only for short periods, often only for minutes, and then revert to rage or his nastiest phase, a defensive posture I call the 'High Priest'. He will deliver cold, high-handed moral lectures which are astonishingly patronising and often emphasise his own special efforts and martyrdom  (because he always represents himself as a lone struggling hero, whose work goes mostly unrewarded). That, I find the most repulsive persona he has. I would prefer outright verbal abuse.

Well, I will  not get any more of it now. He called me a stalker and threatened me with police before he blocked me last week, a sign he is truly painting black and has to see me as a lunatic threat. That's what he did last time. So I might hear from him in a few months or not at all, but I will never go to see him. The only way I will see him is if he turns up on my doorstep, which I sure hope does not happen. It would frighten me to see him again.

[Surrender]

Surrender btw the shame and self hatred comes out quite rarely with my ex. He expressed a bit of it during his regret phase these last few months. Calling himself a loser, saying he should be able to support a family and have a job etc. He's messed up a lot of his own life though with his ridiculous expectations and laziness and I don't think his enabling family who treat him as if he is 14 have helped.

He tends to stay in the shame phase only for short periods, often only for minutes, and then revert to rage or his nastiest phase, a defensive posture I call the 'High Priest'. He will deliver cold, high-handed moral lectures which are astonishingly patronising and often emphasise his own special efforts and martyrdom  (because he always represents himself as a lone struggling hero, whose work goes mostly unrewarded). That, I find the most repulsive persona he has. I would prefer outright verbal abuse.

Well, I will  not get any more of it now. He called me a stalker and threatened me with police before he blocked me last week, a sign he is truly painting black and has to see me as a lunatic threat. That's what he did last time. So I might hear from him in a few months or not at all, but I will never go to see him. The only way I will see him is if he turns up on my doorstep, which I sure hope does not happen. It would frighten me to see him again.

So much of what you write echoes what I've lived with my guy. I see in your writing my own guy... . short periods of shame, reverting to rage then the high priest indeed... . I've sat frozen in terror as I've listened to such cold cutting lectures as to the depravity of my own moral fiber. Patronizing and complete with his personal brand of perfectionism in having the highest uncorrupted fortitude and goodness. It was worse when he was in complete denial of his illness. Perhaps the thing I hate the most is when he set me up to confide in him all my personal details of past experiences. At that time I didn't know he was ill and so couples will share their history together sometimes but had I known that he was collecting data to use against me from now on, had I known his illness I would never have confided in him anything that could be used against me. If only I understood but the truth is there was no way for any of us to know any of this.

It is particularly disturbing to me to find these families that have these adult sons who are so sick yet they enable them and refuse to admit what is obvious to everyone. In many ways it is just exactly as you stated... . the family keeps them underdeveloped, stuck at the age of 14 or 15 years of age. I think if I didn't see so much effort in my guy and his willingness to do everything he has to in order to have a chance at life and for us I'd have to walk away.

Interesting how they make it out like we are playing the victim when we tell them that they are verbally/emotionally abusing us. At least that is when my guy goes off because he feels justified in punishing me. I think it's good you got out DX... . the only reason why I haven't run away is because he has made huge leaps towards accepting and doing everything he can to give himself and us a chance. I still don't think he realizes how much of a satan he turns into... . I don't think they can possibly understand how very horrible it is unless we film it and tape record it.

I've often thought about doing that to give him a perspective of reality because when I try to tell him what he turns into he is baffled and tells me he was just a bit verbally colorful because he was upset but nothing more. hmmmmm that is to me complete disassociation.

I'm happy you don't have to deal with your ex any more and I hope he doesn't return as seems to be their MO eventually. Perhaps with you he will think twice... . sometimes we need to show that we can be their nightmare in order for them to back off.

[MissyM]

My husband is dBPD with narcissistic tendencies.  What has been helpful is that several therapists have now seen this behavior, he was lying and manipulating and getting away with it until recently.  I can't tell you what a relief it has been for others to see this side of my dBPD.  He has always been really good at lying and manipulating, for being able to keep his disregulated self locked away, when necessary.  I just don't know if he will be able to make enough headway to make this a worthwhile relationship.  Pretty much he has a slim chance of recovery from his addictions because of the PDs.  This is hard to really, truly accept.  Because he has always been high functioning, the cracks are really just starting to show with others because he is getting older.

[delusionalxox]

' Perhaps the thing I hate the most is when he set me up to confide in him all my personal details of past experiences. At that time I didn't know he was ill and so couples will share their history together sometimes but had I known that he was collecting data to use against me from now on, had I known his illness I would never have confided in him anything that could be used against me. '

Oh God Surrender it made me shudder to read that... . all the confidences I gave him during pillow talk and moments of intimacy... . things he would say nothing about or accept, and then use as part of his arsenal to condemn me... .

He would express concern etc about my depression and problems, would talk to me about it, then flip it and call me a 'psycho', tell me he was 'healthy' and not me, and that therefore I should defer to him, take advice from him, let him have control... .  he still genuinely believes he is a 'better person than me' and gave that as a reason for his having had an affair: 'I may have made a mistake, but I am still a better person than you'... . etc, etc,

The High Priest persona is the one I make myself remember when I ever miss him. It is just revolting. The height of hypocrisy- reminds me of those Tudor bishops who would collude with corrupt kings to condemn people to death for their made up 'sins'. I remember him raving at me for associating with 'dangerous alcoholics and drug addicts'- this regarding my dear friend who has a drink problem and smokes dope a lot. He is a total dope fiend himself and blamed his affair partly on being 'totally stoned and out of it' for weeks... . he came off it for a week or two, went all messianic and then lo and behold, was back on it again because 'stressed'. His rants about smoking were similarly astonishingly hypocritical.

I don't know how I stood it for one minute actually. It should have ended years ago: he will never change. He didn't have any of the insight your guy appears to have and I don't think he ever will do. People like me who challenge him on his crap get painted totally black. He will no doubt be ranting about his 'psycho bhit' 'crazy' ex for years. What listeners won't know is that he kept pursuing me even after I finally kicked him to the curb last month.

[delusionalxox]

oh... . and even worse... . he would elicit sexual 'confessions' from me (I encouraged him to be more open and liberal, he had many hangups) and then would use what I had told him to suggest that I was basically a tart, who could not be trusted... . oh,   . What a ass he really was. I deserved way way better than him, whether or not I'll ever get it... .

[MissyM]

Delusional, that is interesting on the sexual info.  My dBPDh would always ask me about my previous sexual experiences, it creeped me out and I wouldn't share the info with him.  I have never had a boyfriend ask about specifics with someone else, it just never made sense to me.  I don't want to know what he has done with other women (pretty tame by my understanding of him), so why would he want to know about what I have done with other men?  Of course, so he could use it to try and control or shame me.  He isn't someone that I have ever felt comfortable sharing what my issues are with, he just never has really cared about what problems I have.  He does like to tell me what my problems are, they just don't happen to actually be the problems I have but the problems he has.  The projection is pretty extreme, he loves to tell me I am entitled (ha-ha)! 

[delusionalxox]

LOL. My ex felt shameful, a 'whore'. He also frankly was a bit of a 'whore' (not that I look down on sex workers etc and liberal people, good for them! Just can't think of another word for his hangup). He had been really promiscuous, slept with prostitutes a lot and basically anything that came on to him (and he was handsome so that was a LOT of women... . ) once admitted to me he would 'f*** anything on two legs'  I quite liked that side of him, the frankness, fair enough I thought  but then the shame would come out, and project RIGHT onto me! Argh. That wasn't sexy at all. 

So, in his mind I became the promiscuous whorish 'him.' I'm liberal enough but I do NOT 'f*** anything on two legs', I never have. But god did he seek the evidence that I did, including in the past :/ All  his other long term gfs had been virgins... .    (control freakery anyone?)  I couldn't stand that bloody projection, it was one of the many things that led me to really decide never to go back to him.

[Surrender]

LOL. My ex felt shameful, a 'whore'. He also frankly was a bit of a 'whore' (not that I look down on sex workers etc and liberal people, good for them! Just can't think of another word for his hangup). He had been really promiscuous, slept with prostitutes a lot and basically anything that came on to him (and he was handsome so that was a LOT of women... . ) once admitted to me he would 'f*** anything on two legs'   I quite liked that side of him, the frankness, fair enough I thought   but then the shame would come out, and project RIGHT onto me! Argh. That wasn't sexy at all.  

So, in his mind I became the promiscuous whorish 'him.' I'm liberal enough but I do NOT 'f*** anything on two legs', I never have. But god did he seek the evidence that I did, including in the past :/ All  his other long term gfs had been virgins... .    (control freakery anyone?)  I couldn't stand that bloody projection, it was one of the many things that led me to really decide never to go back to him.

It's like we all have the same script in varying degrees. My guy admitted to me that had I told him about my past (that I wasn't a holy virgin LOL) in the beginning he wouldn't have been able to be with me. He is triggered by women because he has always believed that women are sluts and liars... . it has only been with me that he has learned that life isn't black and white but rather shades of grey. I remember he was quite extreme and then he would project his insecurities about lying whores onto me just because I've got a past. I watched him struggle for 3 years with extreme beliefs that were his issues while trying to make them mine. The shaming game perhaps is the worst and one that would make me furious. My experience with my guy has taught me that I'll never confide my past with any man regardless, however I hope that my guy will be it for me.

I do think he has a lot of insight and although he has projected, split and put on me ALL of his fears and insecurities he has learned to take responsibility for what is his own. He is willing to be corrected and willing to let go of preconceived notions that have only served to do him harm. I think the sexual aspect of it all comes down to his severe problem with lust and how that makes him suffer. He hates it and sometimes breaks down as though it is an agony that he is desperate to have stop. He suffers from chronic masturbation and calls it an affliction but now he knows that is has also to do with self soothing and a way he manages and copes with his dysregulatity.

If he has so little faith in himself and views himself as a worthless insecure person than that is what he will project onto the world around him especially those he loves. He is learning now that those are his issues and taking steps to manage those feelings without having to distort the reality of the world around him. When you mentioned your ex would collect girlfriends that were virgins I had to laugh because that unrealistic expectation was what my guy wanted even though he is in his mid thirties. Well unless he was willing to date a 17 years old I don't see how that expectation is or has a place in the world of adults. Once again it is a double standard that a man expects to have even though he is a whore himself and has had a background of passing ships in the night. It's ridiculous.

I feel in many ways that this whole journey has been a walk through Alice's rabbit hole of distorted reality vs what is actually real and true. For a while there he distorted me and brought me inside his own rabbit hole. It took me a while to realize that I was living inside the world of his distorted perceptions. Now I am able to stand outside and pull away until he is ready to deal with reality and I have zero patience for being shamed anymore or trying to wear guilt about things that are not mine.

[delusionalxox]

Surrender I'm glad your guy has insight and is trying to change. Mine was a million miles away from that 98% of the time. The other 2% he would seem to be so ashamed that he would castigate himself in a strange way, for things that I had not actually blamed him for. I felt they were his own deep inadequacies eg being a loser, not able to be the Italian patriarch, not being 'respected' intellectually,, being a 'whore'. Etc.

He DID find himself a 17 year old... . well near enough... . the girlfriend before me was 19 and a virgin when he met her... . sounded like a shy girl young for her age as well... . The one before that was in her mid 20s but one of those uber-good-girls, a virgin too when they met! Unbelievable! He remarked with great nostalgia on how 'clingy' they were- as if that was a good thing? I was 'too independent'... . well no sher ___lock, I had 2 kids and had to look after them and myself on my own for years before I met him, I wasn't a teenager straight out of her mum's living room... . and he made me feel bad for that?

He was very clear about my whorishness and dreadful flirtation, remarking with appreciation that both his girlfriends before me would have cut dead ANY man who flirted with them. At all. He included even RESPONDING with a smiley etc to comments on a facebook picture.

In one of his unwitting comedy moments, he went off on a big jealous strop when a guy we met kept saying 'beautiful' on my pics or even just liking them. The guy turned out to be gay. Who'd have thunk it, men can appreciate women without wanting to f*** them? Wow. And I wasn't a whore asking for it, by being appreciative of that.

you know, every day that goes by I do thank God just a bit more, that I am out of that mind___ he put me through.

[delusionalxox]

btw... . ex was 31 when he went out with the young-for-her-age 19 year old virgin 

[sm15000]

It's like we all have the same script in varying degrees

Hi,

I haven't posted for a while, been split from my ex of 13yrs for 2yrs now, NC just over a year.  However, I recognise a lot of what is being posted.

My ex was udxd but I would describe him as a high functioning BPD with narcissistic tenancies.

I think he definitely has a Madonna/Whore view of women.  He is an unbelievable charmer of women, and very flirtatious however, if anyone points it out he seems completely unaware and says 'people misunderstand his friendliness'.  He also blames women who he charms and coats as special with this when he doesn't want to maintain anything with them.  He is also an academic, a University lecturer who has taught Feminist Theory, issues of gender inequality and uses this to full advantage as a mask for 'a good man'.  I think his work is his Primary Narcissistic Space, he also has behaviours I can see as cerebral narcissism. . .and basically uses his students as sexual meat - I was one of them 

He, indirectly, has admitted he is a serial shagger.  At the end, he became very objectifying towards women, using porn a lot I'd say and whatever else you can access online.

But, he was full of shame and a belief that he wasn't good enough, and he was bothered by people not liking him.  He always come out with the 'he had put me on a pedestal stuff, but, he wanted to be in control over women.  He was 52 when we split, and the beginning of the end was when I challenged him over behaviour with a student of his that was 21/22, younger than his daughter. 

As MissyM said he was very good at lying and manipulating - the cracks started to really show with him when I wouldn't back down, when I caught him out, when I started to see the real him, and he knew it.