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I got caught up at work yesterday so I came home over half an hour later than I usually do. I was actually talking to a very cute woman about what was going on in my life. I've been friendly with her around for a few years. Even went out to lunch with her over 6 years ago. I perceived interest at the time (no, I wasn't fooling myself), but she had a boyfriend, so I felt kind of weird asking her "out" again. She later had a kid with the guy, same age as my son, and is still with him.

She is very friendly, however, so she asked for an update in a nice way. Ended up talking to her for two hours. Talked about me and my X, our kids... . I kept bringing it back to my X... . then about some of the psychological aspects, and my thoughts on love, friendship, which she liked. She offered hers, too. Said, "you look like you need a hug," and then gave me a nice hug, like a sympathetic friend. Very nice, I told her I appreciated it. I think she is sincere, but I my radar is at max power right now, and if I perceive unhappiness in her r/s, I will be careful.

got home. X texted me on the way, asking if I was going to come home? Hmm. Kind of like the old days. When i got home, she and the kids were watching tv. She said D1 was looking at the door going like "where's daddy?" She can't talk yet, but communicates like any other 1.5 year old. You know what she wants. I was kind of let down that is was because of D1, but then I realized that I shouldn't care.

I later checked the browser history and saw that the night before my X was checking my FB page. I blocked her, but I guess she can still see mine. I could change my security settings, but I have nothing to hide (I never did... . I'm not a false person who compartmentalizes my life as she does). She didn't only look at pics of us as a family, but also at a few pics of me on a solo business trip/partly personal trip I did out of state a few years ago. I did some "guy" stuff with an old colleague and friend of mine. Interesting. Also checked my "About" status... . maybe checking to see if I were in a r/s? Or just obsessing on me now. Could be she is just in the "regret" stage now, not as angry at me. The best I can hope for is to have her stay that way for the next few weeks when hopefully she will be out.

I'll take some kind of power for this, realizing that she will probably always regret something because we had a pretty darn good life going (good jobs, awesome kids, decent home, large family, financial stability), all of which she will never have with anyone else. I know everybody keeps saying I should stop focusing on her, but it kind of helps in a way, to realize that she doesn';t think I am a total POS and failure... . or if she does, that's what she thinks, and she can think that somewhere else. Helps me a bit lifting from the moderate depression I've had for the past week.

T this morning, lawyer this afternoon. Making progress... .

Turkish,

I get that you wish they didn't think you were POS ALL the time.   But I'm afraid its never that simple.  It is either the devaluing or the idealization seemingly and nothing in between. 

I'm in a bit of a funk today myself... .   So, I'm thinking of you friend!

D

It's really tough when you gave someone a stable life and did everything that you could do. It's not appreciated or validated and they squander/throw it all away.

She's with someone else and she's looking you up on FB?

Stay strong Turkish

Well, she's still "with" me since we're living together. As my T says, this is a very confusing situation! so yeah, in a way, she's "cheating" on him! She may have cooled that down recently, though I know she is still in contact with him. Whatever.

I know she contacted her past X when she and I started having issues in the first 9 months of our r/s. She let it be known, and even said that he looked at my myspace page and said that he was far better looking than me (narcissist! though objectively true, I suppose). I consider that her first act of cheating, emotionally. I didn;t set clear boundaries then. I wish I had. She finally detached from him after two years into our r/s... .

That is why even when we were trying to work it out, she let me hug and hold her, but refused to kiss me. In her mind, it would have been cheating on her paramour (that and she was angry at me)! Soo disordered.

I know her well enough that she appreciates our life, still, in some way. At this point, that is all her. I refuse to be sucked into helping her work out a future r/s. If far in the future she is with a stable and trustworthy guy in a LTR, I may help HIM if I get approached by HIM... . if only due to our kids. Even then, I may not say much. And that's only if I perceive it's a decent guy commited to my kids, too. But she will never get an ounce of insight from me. Never. I'll have years to worry about that later though.

It is complicated and confusing with the r/s dynamics with a BPD. Their logic makes my head spin  

It sounds like you have it figured out. I agree, let him approach you and then have a beer with the guy. I would do the same with my replacement(s) ... . for the kids.

I really can't stand that black and white thinking. Everything I did I have done in love and trying to protect/take care of my stbex but if you ask him, everything I ever did was negated because of one thing he perceived as me doing as dishonest. I was going by what I thought was the right thing, the thing that needed to be done. Maybe not what I wanted but the greater good was more important in my mind. But that makes me a POS because I was "insincere". I was totally sincere, which is the sucky part. I realize now I was just too damn co-dependent and it set me up for long term failure.  

mine says I  want taking care of her.  Then said she never had a problem with me as a provider.  well,  which is it?  trying to mediate their changing needs.  as well as dealing with the recurring and cyclical BPD behaviors is nothing short of confusing and frustrating.  the most codependent person in the world could never fill that emptiness. I  think our mistake $$ trying to fill ours.  the root of our codependency. I  think BPDs  last longer in such  relationships,  but nons  still be ever WoE... .  

Turkish,

Don't take your ex's crumbs of validation and turn them into a bread loaf. I know that she's the mother of your children but what a disordered person thinks of you must not tick the boxes of your self-esteem. You're a good person, a provider and a good father all of which need not approval by a person who's mind betrays them 24/7.

When I think of my ex I ask myself: Why do I need a person who cheats, lies, violates my trust, abandoned me easily, betrayed me…who lacks reciprocity to VALIDATE me? At one point I was so obsessed by getting attention from him that when he stalked me I believed that meant he cared.    When it truth the only thing my ex cares about is not losing like the emotional child that he is.

The only answer that I could come up with was that there was still something inside of me that didn't believe I was worthy of love so I still sought it from HELLISH outside sources.

Well dammit. You're worth it.

Of course our ex's know that we're damn good people. Otherwise they wouldn't have chosen us.

They have a canine sense of when the ax is dropped for good and when we are really done. It is terribly frightening for them to know that the person they once had such a powerful hold on can actually survive the removal of that bond.

Their capacity for shade of greys is really minimal. She may care that she's lost you for good but her disorder will always be in control of her since she's untreated.

Spell

That's a good one... . and in bold, thanks. We all need to hear that either lost in the FOG, or going in and out of it like me... . Kind of like The Mist by Stephen King. There be monsters in there.

Wow BPDspell. You hit the nail on the head. Thank you and well articulated.

Grey will turn into white, which will turn right back into black. The cycle of hell. Keep your wits about you Turkish while she is still around you.

Thanks  Ironman. I  was looking at the specific pictures she was looking at,  mostly of our family and felt triggered. a  little.  just thinking of the stupidity of throwing it all away, a  beautiful family.

saw the lawyer.  Going to hire him. I  can present it to her,  get her to sign,  encouraging her to take the custody agreement for a  legal consult.  she signs,  we file,  done.  Then helping her move out.  Then getting on with my life.  financially,  this is timing well... .  the lawyer thought I had a pretty good handle on everything.  so far,  no one professionally or  personally ( or anyone here,  though I may seem like a sobbing sap sometimes)  has said otherwise,  so I take that as a good sign.

She is re-idealizing you as she is returning to an emotional baseline from her dysregulation(indicative of her need to sleep to reset her brain). Hence looking at those pictures. Mine did the same. I saw it in her social media when I let her back in. Hang in there my friend.

i agree that BPDspell's post was really well written.

also Turkish, i think it's fine if you soak up the sun a bit and realize that you did in fact mean a lot to your ex. i think it's ok to do this, because they aren't always honest and they won't tell you that you meant a lot to them unless they need you. you should know that you were important. and she would have never chosen to be with you unless she really wanted to be. sure, her wants are as off base as her devaluation of you, but it's still part of the whole story. and since she's too scared to tell you and you're crafty enough to find out in your own way, cool beans. you deserve a little respite my friend.

i will say this though--about being open because you have nothing to hide. i was the same way. no locks on my phone. i stayed logged into my FB because i had nothing to hide. i want to warn you though that having nothing to hide means bupkis buddy to a pwBPD. you could have a totally plutonic conversation with a person you don't remotely find attractive and your snooping BPD will find this and accuse you of all sorts of things. after breaking up with my ex i sent short, nice messages to my ex's family thanking them for being so warm and welcoming to me. it felt good. but my ex viewed this as me being controlling and trying to turn her family against her; completely false.

to be honest i think it's cool that you saw what you saw but it may be a good idea to completely block her from your personal fb/emails/phone because it doesn't matter if you have nothing to hide... . she may find what she's looking for if she wants it enough. mine found a fb message to an old high school friend that i had sent a year previous; completely plutonic. but she used this to say that i had cheated on her and used it to justify trying to embarrass me publicly. and, when you get those legal documents--make sure to lock them in a safe where she can't get to them or better yet don't keep them in your home; best to keep them at a friend's house or a safety deposit box because they could easily get up and walk away  :)

aargh! i want to end this on a happy note. i'm glad you got to see how valuable you are to her. and yes she's disordered but to hell with it, you deserve to feel good Turkish b/c you are!  |iiii

"They have a canine sense of when the ax is dropped for good and when we are really done. It is terribly frightening for them to know that the person they once had such a powerful hold on can actually survive the removal of that bond."

Great observation.  Canine, primal, predatory , hunting prey like us.  It makes more sense every day as I read these experiences.  Thanks .  I'm not such a wordsmith, but it makes a great connection for me to describe to my friends who know what is going on.

Hey Turkish. Hope you are well. Just wanted to say something that you already know and don't really talk about it much. I've heard you mention it a few times but it hasn't happened yet? Your generosity with her is commendable. Your ride home seemed like normal old everyday same same. She called to see where you were at when you ran late. Pretty normal day in the life, eh? Must be a lot like being married to your sister. That has got to be tough.

As I mentioned, what hasn't happened? To tell you the truth my friend, I think you two should stay together! If you're being honest in your posts I see a strong chance that you might have a ghost of a chance to pull it off. It seems like NEITHER of you really want to split! That my friend is mutual willingness. That is the foundation. Your problem... . Romance is gone. Waddayathink?

Couldn't have put this better! Even in total NC & me making every effort for her to learn nothing of where I'm at/what I'm doing etc, even working with that canine sense alone, she could time her reconnect to with a hares breath of me being out of the F.O.G!

She's like a human enigma machine!

More like she was stalking you. Mine stalked me in the NC time period after she left me in round 1 right up until she re-engaged me for round 2. I had no idea she was stalking me the entire time. But she was.

Turk, I wish a beautiful woman would've hugged me yesterday. 

You say that you would never give her any insight in the future?

Why is that?

I often fantasize about a future "talk" with my ex and it ending up being the one that turns the light on for her... . is this a wrong way to think?

Nothing we CAN do to help is there?

arn131arn it's normal to fantasize about these talks that would help our ex's. however this is treading dangerous territory if you were to ever try. we have re-center ourselves to the reality that the r/s ended largely because this person does not think that they are wrong in the least.

imagine how you would feel, if your ex, with all that she's done, one day came to you with advice saying "arn131arn, you are an abusive person. toxic at times. but there is still hope for you. perhaps one day you will realize how you are the cause of these problems and i support you if you want to seek help". if you'd feel like saying back "What the heck?", well multiply that by 10,000 and that's the reaction you'd get from a disordered person who sees you as the abuser. while it may come off as crass to say you don't plan on offering any insight, i think this is the healthiest choice to make. i've read on other BPD websites and they post how much they *hate* people trying to correct them or feeling sorry for them--they think they are right.

Then how in the hell do they get better, goldy?  I read about success stories.  When I hit bottom with my alcohol I sought help.

How then do they hit bottom?  Hell, they al sound like bottome feeders.  the lowest sucking scum algae from the bottomless pit... .

When all the enablers have disappeared! And new supply has run dry. That rarely happens I imagine.

They don't get better. This forum is living proof of that.

geez arn131arn, i share your frustration but i really don't know. i kind of agree with the other poster that really they will just keep being the way they are as long as there are enablers, as long as they can get away with it. i chose not to stick around to find out though so i can't really speak on those on the Staying board.

good things happen to bad people. bad things happen to good people. this is reality but doesn't mean that we cannot still lead full and happy lives overall. we're all in a bad place. our character is shaped in how we navigate our way out of this space. and arn, with years invested it will take years of recovery. so you have every right to feel angry and despondent. slowly and with work you begin to feel safer and better after separating from the situation. i can't explain them but i do know where i'm headed.

 Its gets under my skin when people say "BPDers wills stay this way until treated" I say B.S. . No amount of MEDS OR THERAPY  will make a significant difference.( MABRY SHOCK THERAPY) hmmmmm. Lol.

Note to Hasty:

Several years ago my wife underwent ECT.  This was as a results of a malevolent physician who overmedicated her.  My wife contended her BPD started with that.  Well it didn't start like that, she acquired it in childhood.  The 9 shock therapies to which I drove her to each time, and watched her until she got intubated, only helped reset her overmedicated catatonic state but did nothing for her BPD.  The BPD  actually got worse to the point that I have joined these communities looking for answers, support and have been encouraged to start therapy on my own.

Darn you man. Get. Out. Of. My. Head!

You got me going there for a bit when I read this last night... . and I started having a 5% desire to throw myself before her and say, "can we work this out?"

The problem is I've done that. The first time, she still kept her romance going. Add to that the weird things I saw her write, like a besotted teenager. Consider her behaviors these past few months, going back almost a year... . and all in all she is a child, like almost all of them, trapped in a woman's body. That will never change, short of some Damascus Road experience. Her pride, stubborness and utter lack of wisdom in making the right choices are what drives her decisions.

Add to that most of the other typical BPD behaviors, even if she is high functioning, I always did, and always will, get the worst. I can deal with the periodic depressions, though she stubbornly refused to consider medication for that (and I know this isn't a cure-all... . my mom started on Prozac back in the day and it got worse before it got better... . thankfully that was months before I left her house and I was a free young adult).

As my T said, "personalities don't change." As the HMO T I saw the other day to get referred to a men's group said the other day (and we all know this), "No one can fill that emptyness."

I don't think she wants me back. I think Ironman is right that she has returned to her emotional baseline recently, though she is unstable underneath. I can still feel it. I know. I am probably the only one that sees it at this point.

I've painted her black to all of my friends. Even those that were sympathetic at first pretty much hate her now. Kind of strong, because I don't hate her. I don't know what I feel for her. Pity? Condescending. I hate that. I feel some compassion, though I know she is still posting stuff on FB that makes her out like the neglected waif escaping a stressful situation. She admits to me that this is the consequences of my choices, but she still paints a different picture in public. Comparmentalization. Dis-integration. If I managed to "win" her back (and here she should be the one winning me back), it would return to the same dynamic. A friend said a few months ago, "just try, but realize that this will probably happen again. Can you deal with that?" No. my X all but said it would happen again. No one deserves that life. NO ONE.

I was alone for many years. I have no problem being alone again, especially if I have kids. Not to fill a hole. Not a void. Not an vast emptyness. Not an unquenchable NEED, which is her, and all of ours. They are a part of me, an addition. And one day, they will detach as grown and hopefully healthy individuals. They are our beautiful creatures, roses that will lose the thorns of their parents when they bloom. I love them so much... .

Concerning our routine, you are right. I come home, she comes home, our routines have changed little. But that is because she is still here. We keep it together for us, and for the kids. If I never saw her ever again, it wouldn't be that much of a loss to me (here I feel guilty, like did I ever really, really "love" her properly?).

I do miss that unbridled affection she exhibited most of the time (in-between the angry episodes, and stress created over the mundane). Would it be nice to get that back? Sure. But then i remember everything else. I would withdraw again... . she would get angrier and treat me worse, then try to cling, I would give her more freedom to "make" her happy, she would take that as rejection, and then go out. That was what happened over the past year. Yes, a lot of that is on me. Like death to a person with abandonment issues. So she punished me, and continues to punish. And punishes me in public in not so subtle ways, though her immediate family still loves me, I know. I keep above whatever fray is going on that I don't know about, but that I know about.

Everything she has done has closed multiple doors to reconciliation. One some hidden level, she may be doing it out of a form of love, cloaked in self-loathing. To give me freedom because she knows she did hurt me. She used to say she would just leave, because she hated herself when she was angry and didn't want the kids and I to see her like that. But that still centers around her. A child.

In the end, I could never, ever trust her again. And even getting past the events of this year, that would remain. Even so, I still feel some guilt, as we were mismatched from the beginning. She needed someone more her emotional level, though I don't think any r/s she had, or may ever have, will last as long as ours. Or be as stable. My r/s with her family, and our children was, and will remain, the glue. That is significant, but it isn't enough, and obviously wasn't. Perhaps in that, I felt it wouldn't be able to sustain as a LTR from near the beginning. Yet our idealization of having a family, which belonged to both of us, thought we could make it work. Me being here is proof that it didn't.

I will process this for a long while. She is high functioning, more than the Exes of a lot of people here. She was never a drunk, a drug user, physically violent (except for one time she hit me a few years ago, and it wasn't that bad in my estimation), nor called the cops on me, and her family doesn't hate me. I know I have it better than a few here. And we were never actually married like a couple of you whose stories are nearly identical to mine, which adds yet another layer of pain to betrayal for you. So much pain. So unnecessary.

I don't lie (at least as most people define lying, of course I may do small ones now and then). I am truthful. I reasoned a long time ago that you'll never have to lie if you don't do things you aren't supposed to do. That is to say, do what is right, and in the end, you will be happy. Happiness is her goal, yet she does everything wrong, so she eternally chases that ephemeral goal in reverse. Nothing I've said here is an exaggeration, at least fact-wise (I will admit to pouring out my emotions sometimes in perhaps an exaggerated manner). I remind myself of this, especially now when she is so "normal."

I have no F; neither do I have O. But I think I will retain some G for a while. I was emotionally immature in idealizing Family to form one with an immature, needy partner, yet in other ways, I was an adult who entered into a relationship with someone I felt at the very least was child-like from the beginning. I was the responsible one. I knew. I should have done the right thing and ended it years ago, especially after her Year 1 recycle of me.

So no, Perfidy, I do not want her back. And I am sure she doesn't want me back. Not really. The Gordian Knot has been cut. Each half of us remains inextricably tangled as seperate halves. There is no way to retie it, and an empire has fallen.

It is done.

I respect you turk... . you're  a hell of a man.

Turkish? It's probably just the caretaker in me. I just know what you are in for. Like you said about taking a long time to process. Can I ask you... . I mean... I experienced shock because of the sudden transformation. You are like... . gradually separating. Do you think the shock is lessened this way? Are you looking forward to physically being apart?

YES. We both are. My house got robbed again tonight. First time was the day before thsnksgiving. She took pics of the mess and posted them to fb. Her boy toy texted her while she was talking to the cops. She had one of those stupid validation videos running on her phone, so it was unlocked. I saw his name, but didn't read the messages. After the cops left talked custody, a productive conversation, then devolved into a half hour bs argumernt which basicalyy boiled down to how I was a bad communicator which justified everything she did. I am home alone sans her (who cares) and my kids because I have two broken windows. I'll post the details of the convo tomorrow when I have time... . as a lesson to those who look for logic and closure... . utterly impossible! In a nutshell... . I got robbed again, and all this bad stuff happened (like her mistake she's taken responsibility for... . kind of like a politician, because she is still doing it, because I'm a bad communicator.

Life sux right now. At least I still have a job. God, send me an angel because I need one!

Perfidy i can see how you could come to the conclusion of a gradual separation. and i had a whole response written but then i got busy, walked away and read it and i kind of felt like a crybaby, . so here's the cliff notes   i had to live my ex for 2 months after separating, in a few weeks she had already found a replacement. it was *not* a gradual separation. it was hell. she used every opportunity to rub in her new r/s and devalue me. i had to go to bed next to her and she would leave his stupid gifts on our (ahem, *my*) bedstand conspicuously so i would see it. she would leave sex compatibility books open "accidentally" for me to see. she would taunt me during 'friendly' conversation where she was soo nice to me and tell me how amazing her new bf of 12 days was with not-so-subtle suggestions that she felt "safe with him because i finally found someone i can trust" (trust was our biggest issue). she would giggle and laugh like a little girl in bed and everywhere else as they texted back and forth, and this guy was completely whipped and under her thumb so he texted literally like 50 times a day (not exaggerating much there). she would disappear and lie about her whereabouts--and i was so poisoned i would stay out with friends for 10-12 hours at a time; only to come home to our poor dog who hadn't eaten or been let out to use the bathroom all this whole time. it was technically her dog but i loved that dog and that was just selfish and mean.

trust me it was no 'gradual separation'. it was her living behind on rent and taking every opportunity to twist the dagger. i couldn't WAIT to get that 1234 out of my house

Wth, goldy? I guess at least mine wasn't quite so in my face, though I saw her browser history a month ago searching sex postions. And she's been sleeping on the couch. Since august... . still thrown her stuff in my face in other ways. I thank you all, because if I didn't hear almost indentical stories here i'd think I was the one who was crazy.

I am so sorry that happened to you again Turkish. And to have to deal with her and the little douchebag guy on top of that; only compounds the mess. We are here for you my friend. She projected the bad communicator role onto you.

Who the hell is robbing you Turkish? Do you think it has anything to do with your domestic situation? I know I was being set up. Not trying to get you paranoid but stuff like that happens. I just hope you are safe buddy and your kids are ok too. Geeze!

So sorry to hear of the crappy domestic situation too Turkish and burglary. Not what you need right now eh. Even the strong like you deserve a break and I sure hope you get it soon.

she has a  little point to it.  but the conversation was still how I  was supposed to do a  through z,  including getting us into couples counseling. I  may not post the convo.  so tired today.  the thieves got a  broken shotgun,  and a few hundred bucks little things.  one window fixed,  the other board.  friends drove two hours to support me.  true love,  not need based.  uncomfortable  with everyone there but it was ok.   cleaning broken glass night and then again today in the light. it was evrrywhere.  Sat up until 4am  by myself.

thanks everyone for your support.

it was a different crew,  probably related. I  kind of expected this if last time they saw evidence I  had firearms.  They only got the cheap Chinese shotgun sitting in the closet.  everything else was locked up.  my buddy and his wife too must everything else with them since they move rurally and in a  gated community. I expect they  may come back again.  this time, I  am going to tape signs to the  back Windows stating guns removed,  and that the cops spent two hours collecting prints and blood samples.  might see about camera system,  too,  though that might not stop it either.

as for the idiot, I  highly doubt it was him,  but when she was in the other room, I  told the cop in 30s  what was going on and gave him the idiot's name  and the college he goes to.  the cop said it was worth at least a background check.  if they actually talk to him and it gets back to her,  that will be interesting... .   but I  have every right to protect ME  and my KIDs.

Yes you do have the right to defend yourself. I'm sorry it has to be like that. Damn it Turk, positive thoughts for you and your family. Makes it hard to trust when things like that happen. World full of crazies. One thing after the other. It's no wonder so many people stay screwed up. I feel lucky that I've even had the luxury of grieving and healing! My counsellor said that she sees a lot of people that have ongoing problems like drugs and alcohol because of un-resolved grief. She has certs for DBT and CBT. She treats BPD. I like her because she's very open minded and has had a long career. I asked her if she thought I was BPD and she said that I had issues but BPD was a much more serious dx. Maybe there is hope for me after all?  

I sure hope the best for you.

Of course there's hope [for you]. As my old .sig used to say "there's still hope because its the one thing no one has figured out how to kill yet."

The unresolved grief comment is interesting... . that is a good way to think about our pwBPD... . and also about ourselves!

Conerning our situation, my X thanked me a little while ago for taking care of everything, that she knew it was a lot to.deal.with (she's using SET on me). I thanked her for thanking me. We were both sincere, and I didn't feel weird taking the validation. Of course, being ever the CoD, I also said, "sorry about all that last night. That was a very stressful situation. Its a wonder we don't get into those kind of conversations more." She nodded, which was her form of an apology.