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Quick question for people who left or are leaving these toxic relationships. Did your partner use sleep deprivation to manipulate you, control you, turn you into the "bad guy"?

My ex loved to start conversation in the middle of the night (like at 3 am) or just as we turned off the lights to go to sleep or even as we just started to kiss and undress, she would just stop and mention something stupid like "did your ex contact you"? (and the best thing the ex has not contacted me like ever after breaking up)

YES ! ! ! !

I used to try and explain to her that I needed rest if I was able to function at work. She would get upset and chew me out for the rest of the night. She had no concept of this.

Sleep deprivation is a more severe form of abuse. There are so many nights of hell I can remember where I would just lay there in bed frozen in fear when she would start in on a topic. She could lecture for hours on end!

She was to lazy to do this.  She needed her sleep.

Thanks for the laugh ... . I could have only wished

hahaha "she was lazy". What an amazing comment :)

Reminds me that mine also needed her "beauty sleep", like if she was going to bed and I sad "let me just see the news and I will be there in 5 minutes" she would actually get angry?

Oh yes... argued/talked all night while I was on the road for work... texts every few minutes during day... lost a job from it.

Yes, definitely!  I hear you, tiredndown and agree that it's a form of abuse, like something they use with prisoners of war to break them down.  On several occasions she kept me up all night, following me everywhere around the house . . . like some crazed stalker when she was triggered.    I made rules like no serious discussions after 10:00 p.m., but those w/BPD ignore boundaries.  One time she broke down the door to our bedroom after I locked it to get away from her in order to get some rest.  Worst was when she dumped a gallon of water on my head at 3:00 a.m. when I was sleeping on the couch.  Not fun, believe me.  The sleep deprivation, coupled with the isolation from my friends and family, contributed to a serious loss of perspective for a while.  Lucky Jim

Yes, argue, talk, whatever all night long sometimes. His brain just would not stop, so he would yammer at me until he dropped off.

I considered it abuse. He was always pushing some sort of agenda late at night.

L

I feel like, at least in my case, was that they had you trapped. She thought I wouldn't be able to leave. Much like long car rides or when we're camping. The last camping incident was the last. I will never let her putmeinthat position again.

Now when I I am home I will leave to my fathers house at least until the divorce is final.

Yes and yes. That's typical for borderlines. He used to even wake me up at the middle of the night to ask me some questions!

Haha you were soo lucky!

Such a sore point with me. He's been an insomnia and used the tv as a means to keep me awake. In times of anger, rage tv goes up loud and computer games sound up loud. The other day it was vacuum on at 4am.  I use earplugs a lot, if I respond, he cranks it all up louder. How I got through 2 decades of this, I really don't know.

Yeah, my uBPD/NPD ex gf would have her issues first thing in the morning because she wouldn't be able to sleep.  The recurring crap was with me waking up with her next to me in my bed, all glossy eyed and emotionally dysregulated.  I knew it would get weird from there.  One of the best ones was with her getting all emotionally whacked out because she claimed I didn't help her write an email to her ex H the night before.  So, it was totally acceptable for her to awake in my f'ing bed crying about the ex H's email.  Then it was even super cooler for her to dump all the sh!t on me.  To make an even bigger party in my f'ing bed, she'd then rage and run out the door if I didn't respond as she expected.  I REALLY MISS THOSE DAYS! NOT!

ABSOLUTELY, pearl is right, this is relatively common for BPD/NPDs. If you arent rested, then you are weak,  you are easier to be controlled. She would happily pick a loong fight at 1 am, which would last until 4 am... . with a lot of drama in between.

mine would use not only sleep deprivation as a tool to get me exhausted (her favourite tho), but other ways to keep me on my toes and exhausted, so really i reached points i was soo tired i couldnt even function properly. no wonder focusing at work is not easy! they do it t tear you down, plain and simple.

Towards the end of the relationship I was working mostly nights, and she was in class during the day. She was sure to make all sorts of noise first thing in the morning as she was getting ready. She would start "important" conversations as soon as I made any sign of stirring. I am the type of person who can carry on a full conversation during the twilight of sleep and full wakefulness. The problem is that I will have either absolutely no recollection of the conversation, or have to be coached through most of it before I remember anything. Which is basically the same thing. I have to be reminded of the first 80% of it for what vague recollection I had to make sense as real, as opposed to a dream.

Once my SO figured this out, she made sure to get my complete attention. I was constantly "asked" (told) to do things for her so she wouldn't be late. Fix breakfast, find something she had "lost" and had to have, etc... . It would take so long to get back to sleep that I was either completely exhausted for work, or was late, or both. Lost a couple of jobs because of that.

My bad idea was to stay out drinking after work and sleep in the guest room. It had the same effect on me.

It's a hard thing to get around when you live together.

All the stories you mention are so tragically alike

I also remember a similar approach to sleep deprivation, I would call this "inappropriate context talks".

She loved starting to discuss what a horrible bf I was, how evil my parent are (so dumb), how my friends don't add her on Facebook (I should have gotten that hint) and so on. But it's not only the words she she was saying but the context like when I was driving on the highway, at church or during lunch at her parents house (but through whispers).

This ways I believe she also controlled me, because If I engaged in conversation it was inevitable that people would notice and I would look like a maniac.

Have you guys gotten these conversations in totally inappropriate context and thus you could not defend yourselves like humans?

Mine would start things like that while over at a friends house, or when we had friends over. Sometimes everyone would be in bed and she would start on me.

It's all about trapping the partner. Sometimes it would go on for HOURS. That was a really dark time in my life.

I never put myself in that position anymore.

With all I have read here I got scared.

He does that to me. I need to sleep because of work and he starts a conversation in the middle of Sunday night. All sweet but then when I don't answer (sometimes i pretend to sleep so I don't trigger it) he says how alone he feels at night, and how are schedules are different. But if its an important night for me (brithdays, christmas... . ) he picks up an ugly fight and breaks up with me everytime. Last time, I just got up and started to pack my bags (hotel, christmas) and he said: Where are you going? Are you going to leave me like this? You dont even try? And I answered : I try everytime. Its not worth it.

And then I ended up staying and he became mellow.

Its a very nauseating roller coaster... .

MissTajo - In all honesty, you should be scared. If there are no children involved, run for the HILLS!

I sustained her watching tv in bed at first for many years with two pillows over my head," I can't tolerate the headphones," she would say.  Meanwhile she would talk to me as I was trying to sleep.

Then as she got sicker, the arguments began in earnest after the kids were in bed, usually from 9pm to 1 am.  On multiple occasions she had me up till 3 am .  My routine is to get up at 5 to get the lunches ready before the kids have to get up for school.  So at 3 when she would "wind down," she would say it's not safe for me to drive the kids to school since you only had 2 hrs of sleep--as if she would even do it.  I did it, and they went to school dressed and ready and then I would drive to work.  Sometimes I did two trips when my kids were in two different schools. 

At times in the middle of the night I would get so disgusted that I would get out of bed at 1 am and get into my daughter's bed: surely that would be off limits to my wife---WRONG.  On when the lights, off went the bedsheets, and "I have things we need to talk about now" would start.

So then I decided I should try and get more laundry done.  So I would go downstairs and start folding the dry stuff and getting a load to wash.  She would throw the dry stuff on the floor and say she thought it was all dirty clothes.    Then she would insist everything be rewashed.  As if she would do it. 

A couple of times I would head to the living room, to get on the sofa, with my cell phone set for an alarm clock and yell at her to get the h*&l out of my face.  That worked about 25%.

It has settled down a lot, but I am always on edge.  Sleep is very hard still for me.  Last night I just cried myself to sleep.

I think the trapping and controlling piece here is important to spotlight.  I definitely think that my ex gf would knowingly trap me in situations to have control over me.  It went so far one time after she showed up at my house at nearly midnight all emotionally dysregulated and then raged when I didn't respond as she expected, that she had us drive 40 miles to a hike a trail to discuss the issue.  :)iscussion didn't go well because I wouldn't accept her "twisted reality" that she was justified in her actions a couple nights earlier.  I nearly left her on the trail and drove home.  At a T session a couple days later, she openly stated it to the T that she drove me out there on purpose so I couldn't leave.  I don't think I responded well that day in T due to the heavy layer of FOG I was stuck in.  Things went south from there with her attempting to use her physical force to confine me in rooms so I wouldn't leave while she was spinning her crap.  

Back to the sleep thing, I have a sleep disorder and she obviously knew it.  There was no compassion from her to help me and it seemed she would intentionally deprive me of sleep or start-up early in the morning when she knew I'd be groggy and tired.  So done with that crud!

 gary seven, You have pretty much articulated some of the worst times of my life. I used to take the family on my business trips, and when this would happen I would need to get another hotel room at 1:00 AM just to get some sleep. Then I would get blamed for spending the extra $100 \ night just because I wouldn't listen to her. If I would just hit__ the talk wouldn't go on for so long. One times she was raging on me the entire weekend and during our anniversary night she wondered why I didn't buy her a gift... . Well DUH

I feel your pain man, it's REALLY difficult.

I mean this is horrible, this is stuff they do to enemies during a war. I hope this words will motivate people to leave because this is harmful to our physical and mental health. I plead with you people to leave, I know that it's different in marriage and with kids but by leaving and removing your kids from their insane grip you will be saving them, or am I wrong.

Since I don't live in the US, could someone tell me how serious courts take into consideration BPD as a reason to give custody to fathers.

In my country (in the Balkans), under no circumstances do we hear of the father getting the kids, courts always believe the woman to be the victim and after having lived through this relationship (thankfully no kids or marriage) I realized that if we did get married I would probably have to steal my own kids to save them and prevent them from becoming crazy as well.

It really depends if you are in a 'fault state' or 'no fault state'. The laws vary state by state.

In my state the reason for the divorce doesn't really matter. I as the father need to document that I am very involved with the kids to secure 50 \ 50 custody. In other states the fathers are not so lucky. You really need hard proof that the mother is incapable of caring the children in order to get full custody.

Now, if you get charged with domestic violence the rules change drastically in favor of the other party.

Would any of you like to discuss this on the staying or undecided board? At this point in time I am staying in my relationship. I've set very clear boundaries with my pwBPD and I know it's up to me enforce them. If he starts an inappropriate conversation late at night it's up to me to say I don't want to talk about that right now. Not only that it's up to me to control myself and not start inappropriate conversations of mine own late at night. Have any of you talked to your therapists about this? Is it possible that any of you have codependency issues?

unicorn

If you would like to start a topic over there I would be happy to share my experience. In my case I tried to explain how I needed to be fresh for my work and all other sorts of things. She could not see anything at all wrong with it. Then I would come home and she would just be waking up from a nap. I would try and setup more appropriate times for her to 'lecture' because it was never about a discussion, it was always just her lecturing me about this and that.

What finally stopped it? My T suggested I had clothes ready and a place to go. I would ( as calmly as I could ) leave the house and spend the night at my fathers house.

"I resent, I mean I represent that statement!" Definitely have codependency issues that were especially triggered in my 3 year r/s with BPD/NPD ex gf.  Working extremely hard now on those issues.  I think this discussion would look and sound very different on the staying board.

Yes all of us have codependency issues but by leaving our BPD relationship we tried to break that. To me those on staying board have sever codepency issues by choosing to stay with their BPD partners.

That's a rather negative outlook.

Borderline Personality Disorder is a serious mental illness! It's a brutal, destructive & viscous illness to boot! For both parties involved.

Doesn't a relationship with a seriously mentally ill person have a 'rather negative outlook' for you?

I'm not dissing you for staying at all. Credit to you for trying in fact.

But someone choosing to stay in a relationship with a mentally ill person who's illness mostly produces abuse to the other, is well, showing considerably more signs of codependency than those who are choosing to detach!

Again, credit to you for wanting to stay in a relationship with such destructive dynamics. But those living in glass houses are best not throwing too many stones around.

Peace & Love

I started this topic on the "Leaving" board on purpose. I believe that we all have some form of co-dependency issues which is exactly why we need to discuss the horrible things that we endured in these relationships and use the Leaving board. In this way we will realize what we DO NOT want ever again and use this knowledge when entering new relationships. I am sure we will all be smarter in the future and notice  red-flag in time.

I have to be a little rough and say that I do not understand people that are staying, the whole "let me be your savior" thing will destroy you. My grandfather was married to an insane and dangerous woman with numerous problems, and even though he was an angel of a person he just kept falling apart and died at 56 from being miserable. I never got the chance to meet him.

So my point is leave, yes, it's tough, yes it's cold but for heavens sake is this the life anybody wants. When I reach my senior years I want to travel and enjoy nature and talk to somebody who will not give me S**t for the way I pronounce a word or the way I sneeze. I am 27 years old and feel so tired from the relationship I was in that I feel normal woman will sense I am "injured" and run.

Sorry, had to get that out of my system  

:'(

@max101

I think we are all at different stages in the relationship. I feel like you and I are of similar mindsets but the fact is, at least for myself, it took many many failed attempts at saving the relationship to arrive at this point. The bottom line is I learned the patterns, learned what was going on, and made a decision that I no longer could continue. Even if she woke up tomorrow, admitted everything was her fault and she was seeking therapy, I still could not change course. There is too much pain back there to ever forgive her. This very thread brought back so many bad memories, reminded me of how bad things get with this type of person. There is NO WAY IN HELL I would ever go back to such a dark place.

Words of caution to unicorn2014 in your plans, be careful not to loose YOURSELF in trying to save the relationship. Learn everything you can, then make an informed decision.

Unicorn2014

Knowledge is power. Bpd is not a joke, is a life destroyer and there is NO cure for it. I've spoken to very well experienced psychiatrists and as I'm a compulsive fixer rescuer I really tried to understand this disorder and help my ex BUT there is no help. Most psychiatrist and psychologist refuse to see borderlines because of their lies, manipulations and their to toxicity of their minds.

Learn as much as you can. Good luck.

+1

BPD destroy lives of those close to them. Awareness is key... KNowledge is power. Pearl is right (in my view)

Its a disease. They are not monsters. I don't which therapists you have been seeing but labeling BPD's almost as monsters not capable of changing, I'm sorry, but its cruel. They are people with feelings and with a severe problem. With a good therapy and the right medication they can be controlled. Not 100 % but enough to have a nice relationship and family environment.

Misstajo

I've seen HONEST and knowledgeable therapists. There are many therapiests give false hopes and don't forget is their business. I had in my other posts as well, my sister inlaw has been in therapy for more than 20 years in therapy and his husband is a drug addicted and bankrupt as well. Her son is a borderline too and destroyed a girl's life and divorced her and he is in a mission of destroying another girls life too.

I've heard my cousin who married to a BPD vampire and he's been drinking most of the time, he's got a liver cirrhosis now.

I haven't said they are monsters but they are too broken. When psychologist labele them as leeches and we are hosts so their issues are serious.

You've got to ask yourself why you want to be with a crazy person? Is this love or addiction? Are your issues tapped you in this relationship? Are you afraid to be alone?

Has your self steem dragged to a level of a borderline or even lower? Is your lack of knowledge caused you to stuck?


Bpd is not curable. Their emotional developments arrested in 3 years and there is no way to grow more than that. A borderline is not able to have a FEELING of a wife or husband,mum or dad.

Tired has summed that up pretty much for me.

I thought of an analogy:

Because of the revolutions in healthcare, and because so much more is known about cancer, the medical and nursing schools, and the journals  are teaching the doctors and nurses and support staffs to understand there is no "cure" for cancer.

They now speak about the person's  life after cancer treatments, be they surgical, chemo, radiation, or complementary as "disease-free survival."

There is no "cure" for the loved ones with BPD.  This is NOT like Cancer.

I am married to a BPDs.  It feels to me as if I have the cancer and have tried every treatment and have had every side effect from every drug tried to "cure" the disease.  I am in salvage mode only.  I am distraught, mangled, nervous, and beaten down.  I look horrible. At times I think I should be in hospice.  But I do not want to go there.  It is not a solution for me. 

All I want is a life away from this person so I can live a small meager life, be the best dad to my little kids, and call it  "disease-free survival." No living on the hog.  I only want to watch my spending (like have a real budget) , try to become debt free, and work hard enough to keep employed at this company.  Don't really want to dream about luxurious vacations, fancy clothes, or even a big house.  Just to be in a disease-free survival state.

Hi everybody, I choose to stay in my relationship with my BPD fiance because I have BPD traits myself and I am treating them through dbt and individual therapy. I think its very hard for nons to bridge the gap with borderlines but in my case the gap is not that wide. This just points me to the fact that I should not even be reading the leaving board. My apologies for the disruption. Please carry on without me.

Totally been there! I can't claim to have as horrible of experiences as a gallon of water being dumped over my head, but man there have been a few rough times. Once she broke a few things in the house (minor things because she wouldn't want to pay for anything), slammed my 6 month old smart phone on the ground (luckily had a case for it), and blocked my family members from my phone. Needless to say, it was hard to sleep that night. Couple that with just that wide eyed scary look, and hitting me once with a lint roller (which I brought up later), and it was not a good time.

Other times we have started arguing about something at 1 am (we go to bed late), and I try to say "I need my rest" but she is a stay at home mom so she just wants to totally drag the discussion out as long as possible. I have spent a couple nights on the couch. Luckily it is a comfy one though.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. I'm sure you must be heartbroken, and that understandable, but borderliners are people capable of love , learn, teach, improve themselves. There are many levels of a borderline personality so of course it all depends on the person.

A professional in mental care, calling sick people "leeches" Im sorry... . but his/hersd professionalism is dubious.

I'm with you there MissTajo. I believe my uBPDw is very capable of loving me and for us to have a (mostly) happy marriage. I even believe she is willing to work with other people and she has shown an ability to learn from her past relationship mistakes (that is crucial). She doesn't always blow up at people like she used to after losing a friendship because of that reason. We still have a ways to go with my family (they are currently at odds with her), but I believe she is willing to give them a good chance if they come to the table and are willing to meet her halfway on what she wants and needs. My wife is one of the most fun people to be around when she isn't having symptoms. And luckily, that's a lot more often than not since she's high functioning. That and the fact we have an almost 2 yo S together and you have a few really good reasons to stay together. Her family is awesome and welcoming to me too.

Misstajo

In my marriage nothing happened to be heart broken. I only faced the reality and I couldn't lie to myself anymore. Either is someone BPD or not. If someone BPD is not capable if love because they are not whole individuals. Anyway life is about choices and hope is a strong desire to keep us in these relationships.

Normally people at this board have reached the realisation which took them a very long time. One of the reason I didn't left my husband because I thought he was deeply in love with me. Yes he was a great actor. Probably this board is very confusing for you. I was in the same place couple of years ago.