Print Page - dealing with the roller-coaster, aka "forgetting everything i've learned."

i was so pleased when last week my uBPDh had a good little moment of taking responsibility for his own actions.

Yesterday he did pretty well considering he had knee repair surgery in the morning. He apologized in the afternoon because he realized he was grumpy when we first got home, so he said "i realized that i was grumpy, and i'm sorry, i don't mean to treat you worse than i did the nurses." He had them charmed, so the first one that met me to show me to his bed in recovery said, "oh your husband is just the sweetest man! You hold onto him!" And he wanted a photo with the nurses to remember how great they were to him. (i don't think it hurt that they were all pretty young things. We are both 60.)

Today went steeply and quickly downhill and i became the Worst of the Worst, Baiting Him and being The Cause of Why He Yells at me. Apparently he has once again forgotten who he married and who i am, and i have become Satan's Spawn once again. (well, my mom was kinda crazy and mean... . )

i let my pissed off side get the better of me and did the most foolish of all things... .

E N G A G E D. i am going to reread the article on NOT engaging in a stupid one sided argument where i am going to be at fault no matter what. it is beyond pointless and just inspires more spewing of acid from his tongue. Big fat *S I G H*

i may have even explained to him WHY i was defending myself. Now i need to also reread the article about how defending myself is pointless, JADEing is not helpful, and perhaps add on Number 4 from The Lessons: surviving confrontation and disrespect. Weirdly, when i tell him i feel he's being disrespectful he continues being disrespectful.

GAAAH

Of course if i say "okay, i'm going upstairs for a while" he has to come up and tell me i'm pouting. At least here i have learned not to go straight to my 5 year old self who gets all offended and wants to say "YOU can't call me a pouter!" So i did a little better and said, "no, i just didn't want to be around you anymore." OH WAIT--was that NOT "better"? Hmmm.

Anyway, it's been a bad day and it's not even dinner time. Poop.

Oh--and with the knee surgery, he's on big opiates and has been adding in rum and cokes. Yay. i've heard that's a killer combination, especially for a guy who suffers from depression and (at least today) thinks his wife is the one whose fault the whole mess is.

Yes, i AM feeling snarky, thank you for asking!

df99

Thank you both, Lilibeth and unicorn2014! Now I feel validated!

I think there must have been a hesitant look on my face when Adorable Young Nurse said that. Why fibromyalgia came up I'm not sure, but she said "Oh! My aunt has that and it's really bad the pain she deals with!" Then when she was helping him into the car the "sweet" man said to her, "But sometimes I think people just use it as an excuse for 'oh I'm too tired to cook, would you buy something?'" And I'm thinking, "see how sweet he is? How about YOU take him home for his recovery."

Yes, there are very much 2 sides to pwBPD, and it seems to be the public and the private.

Lilibeth, yes I think you're right--I'm definitely more vulnerable when I'm tired and hurting physically, and there's the constant struggle of him trying to make me believe everything he says is right while I'm trying to be me, but kindly not in his face. So I'd imagine that very much played into it.

And part of it is that I get more outwardly upset than inwardly like I used to. When I thought that I WAS probably at fault, after all he was so persuasive about how awful I was, then the pain and anger would turn in and I would feel worse and sometimes mildly suicidal. Now that I realize I am a whole entire person of my own not put on the planet just to serve his needs, it pisses me off when he acts up. I find that my anger filters get a little thin at those moments.

These days I'm currently experiencing his dysregulation are showing me how futile it is to actually answer his questions. When told that he "really wanted to work this out" I should have seen that what he really wanted was to try to convince me that he is always right and that I am wrong. Silly me!

Today he's angry because I had told him how it feels when he talks to me that mean way. So he is now the Suffering One who has been hurt by my words. Wow, way to deflect that one!

Big sigh. Thanks for being there for me ladies.

Thanks Waverider for the reminder, that is good to think about. i did manage to turn things around through his many small tantrums of the evening by working very hard to remain mindful and Not Engage. He tried many many times to bait the hook and reel me in, but i didn't allow it. HAH! It's not a contest, but I WIN! This did lead to a better day today, though he's still being moody.

Lilibeth, i was thinking about that, needing to perhaps just go get a manicure and pedicure, something that feels so indulgent. Mostly i have spent time in another room from him saying that this way he can play his video games he bought for his recovery.

One of the tantrums he had last night was to leave without telling me to walk the half mile to the liquor store to buy a huge jug of rum. This was on the knee he had surgery 3 days earlier on, and that the doctor just that morning had said "walk on it as little as is necessary." Wow. He was so worried that he might run out of rum for the rum and cokes he's been liberally supplementing his heavy opiates with. And yet he had me get the "caffeine free" version of the soda! Glad he's watching his health. ?

Today he was the happiest chap while talking to people at his job about work. He loves his job, he's great at his job, and now if i would just go back to being bully-able and compliant he'd have the perfect life.

But then, a perfect life gives you no reason to grow, right?

i love when friends say "but did you tell him this? Did you say that?" Even his sister said "have you told him he's being like his mother was?" And i patiently say, no, because logic is pointless when he's in the illogical mode.

Hope you are feeling stronger, DreamFlyer99, and hope you did give yourself the treat. DreamFlyer99, i don't think any logic works - when my husband is in a talkable mood, i do try to talk to him and get him to see how his anger is not working - but then i'm not sure how his brain processes it, because when it doesn't work out, it's back to me... . so now i just leave things be and concentrate on doing something else - since i do a lot of needlecraft, and i have to have my head bent, i just repeat things i've learnt here and pray for the time to pass... . still do feel dented, but then manage to get myself back soon.

Hi DreamFlyer99,

I can SO relate to your post. As people who've been here for quite some time, we've learnt the Lessons. We do know what's good and what's not in communication. We're not ignorant like before we came here. BUT sometimes we're just not in the right frame of mind and we can't practise it. It happens to me too. Usually when I'm moody/ emotional about things, perhaps not completely related to my pwBPD.

Then I will do all the wrong things and I'll feel even worse because it led to some kind of fight/ argument/ prolonged discussion... .

But at the end of the day, we're human. All we can do is to try again tomorrow. I'm sure there were lots of times when you practised the Lessons and they did work, so I'm sure you can do it again when you've took some time to yourself.

Take care

Quote from: DreamFlyer99 on February 17, 2014, 11:11:12 AM

Well, it all went to heck last night. he'd been drinking a lot and apparently storing up a lot of mean-ness to spew. he got physically and verbally threatening, so I texted my son in law to come get me please and he answered immediately and left immediately to get me, so I'm at my daughter's house with her and her hubby and my 2 grandgirls.

We shall see what happens from here.

I guess the BEST thing about it is that I knew right off that he was in the wrong and this wasn't my fault and had the sense to leave the house for once.

Hi DF99, I understand you're probably just glad you are out of the house for now and probably deflating or something like that. Are you thinking of waiting to see what happens, or doing something yourself? Where do you see things going now?

Quote from: DreamFlyer99 on February 17, 2014, 11:11:12 AM

I guess the BEST thing about it is that I knew right off that he was in the wrong and this wasn't my fault and had the sense to leave the house for once.

These things happen in a BPD RS, the difference is you did the healthy thing. Did you have this exit plan already in mind if things went bad?

What will happen will happen now, but you did what was necessary for you to avoid making it worse for you. It was a boundary, you enacted a consequence, he knows you are willing to do so and are not defenseless. You have demonstrated that you are in his company by choice.

Can you stay objective about all this or do you feel emotionally charged?

Today i feel confused and exhausted. (i pick C please!)

i was proud of myself for making a good choice, but i didn't have a clear plan. i just suddenly in the midst of it realized "i'm not alone--i have family!" and was able to get my message out for help. if it makes any sense, i suddenly just "KNEW" i had people who would help me. i guess it was part of getting a bit out of the FOG.

i have no idea what's next. i don't want to risk being there alone with just him and 3 wiener dogs... . my son in law will take me, so i'm thinking that maybe he can talk to my H in the back yard or something and my daughter can go in with me. We may even try to bring the dogs back to her house, since one of them has special needs medically.

i'm trying to remain objective, it's taking some effort. But i know that the guy from last night isn't exactly the guy i built a family with, he needs help desperately, but i am not the one who can make that happen, he has to want to.

i'm having trouble thinking, of course, having had weird sleep and all that strangeness from last night. i don't know how to quote you on an ipad, but i love the whole thing you wrote, Waverider, about consequences and boundaries. Fortunately i was in a new place emotionally where everything made sense. i of course still catch myself saying 'rescue-y" things in my head... .

Mostly Turkish, i just see myself NOT being there with him in this condition. i've informed some people, all my kids know what's up. They of course are not happy with what he's doing or what he did to me. They didn't really know how bad it was getting.

i honestly don't know what TO do, but i'm welcome at my daughter's for however long i need to be here.

Just kinda feeling my way, talking to my T tomorrow.

Thank you for helping me here. i'm too tired for this poop.

Oh--a couple of them have said, "of course i'm not taking sides" which i absolutely support. And it feels very strange to admit to any of them that i'm afraid.

Thank you Lilibeth, because of course I am too much of a mess right now to think super clearly!

Waverider, at the moment I'm not sure about spending any time with him because he just goes into the he's so miserable, i'll do anything, why are doing this, is it all over, on and on. it's been hard enough to get his texts and deal with them.

It's just tough, because I'm supposed to be taking care of him after his knee surgery, but he's really really dysregulated right now, and he's intimidating. And he wouldn't let me bring the dogs. I think he's using them as collateral to get me to come around, but he can't have a real conversation yet. He has some serious work to do on himself, but he won't look at that or get help yet. And I can't place myself in the crazy for a while.

I see my T tomorrow, thank God, and she'll have some good insights.

I'm just so exhausted in every way possible.

Lilibeth,

you are so lovely checking on me!

Today is a better day. Honestly, being with my daughter and her family has been such a relief, and getting the distance from my uBPDh has been so great for my mental health!

From this distance I can see how much damage I've sustained (I feel guilty saying that!) I am so sad about the dogs but I know that once my H returns to work I can go see them.

All of my children are supportive--I think it was just a bit of a shock. But they all know how "off" he can get. He texted me this long message about how he was looking forward to spending time with me while he was off work with his knee surgery. I just thought, "then perhaps you shouldn't be physically and emotionally threatening!" Seriously, that's just common sense--which he lacks.

My T was awesome (as always) and helped me define my boundaries a bit more clearly, and helped me realize that my H has the rest of the family to ask for help if he needs it. My youngest daughter works close to the house and would come for lunch to hang out with me every day of the work week, and she's worried he may try to have her replace me as the workforce. She has had better boundaries than me ALWAYS. She jokingly says she's too selfish to be enabling. Selfish in that case just means self-care for her, and she realizes that he's never gonna figure out how to take care of himself and be a big boy until he's forced to.

I don't know at this point if I will go back, but my gut says that if he was to start therapy today it would be a year before I could even look for serious changes. I won't go back unless there is a huuuge change in his understanding and treatment of me because my depression is lifting in just a few days time, I can get up in the morning and feel happy. What a difference a day can make!

How is your situation?

*Oh--my son in law where I am is very techie, and I'm gonna have him help me deal with the phone and other issues to keep my H from stalking me and bugging me.

Quote from: DreamFlyer99 on February 19, 2014, 12:03:51 PM

That's great, DF99! Do you think you were in the past the kind of person who had trouble asking someone else for help? I was like this (and was accused of it in the end by my uBPDx). I've learned that it's ok to reach out. In reaching out, I found a whole army of people lining up behind me (including you, thank you). It feels good, and I'm learning it's ok to feel good. Maybe that was an unhealthy boundary in my case (self protection? Guilt of not taking care of others? I don't know... . ). You've carried so much weight in your life taking care of your family, it's time that you've earned a respite and let the love you gave out come back to you. That's reciprocation, and it's real. Take the very best care, DF99!

Turkish

My Turkish friend,

Excerpt

AWWWW... .

And YES I've thought i was an island for a loong time! Hard to accept help. But you're right about the reciprocal thing, and that's totally how they've been. :)

DreamFlyer99, it is wonderful, just wonderful to have you back. I know it's going to be a long haul for you - just remember that you are not alone, and we are all sending you our energies to cover you... . As Turkish said, 'It's ok to feel good.' And you really need to push everything aside and just concentrate on yourself for a bit here, DreamFlyer99. You've done a lot, and now it is YOU-time.

You know, Turkish, you really struck something in me when you said that line about it's being ok to feel good. This sense of guilt (which in reality is false) really needs to be weeded out - i know i have to work on this... .

It's difficult to know who to go to for help, Turkish. When i tried that, i remember being told by a person i thought was a friend - 'leave the ass.' Those of us who are in relationships with BPDs and are serious about learning how to stay on - see if we can't make sense of this and make the best of it - will know that leaving is not the solution, and yet staying on is hard work, do-able but hard... . but hardly anyone understands that. This is the first time that i am finding so much support, validation of my innermost feelings that i could hardly even express. I am so grateful for the understanding i get from you, DreamFlyer99 and Waverider... .

What Waverider has said that 'physical space is required to kick start some of the changes required that you have been toying with since you started this self discovery,' is very, very essential. Physical space and knowing that there are people who not only accept you, but give you the reassurance that all is not lost, that we can make it, that we are not alone is what makes the whole difference on this journey on which we have started. I'm trying to create this space under the constraints i'm living under... . and small though it is, it is working... .

DreamFlyer99, that tech help regarding your phone is just what you need... . so glad he'll be able to do what is needed right now.

Take good care of yourself,you DreamFlyer99. We're with you. Positive energies from me are streaming to you... . It's YOU first... .

dreamflyer i'm so sorry to hear about your situation. thank god you have your family nearby!

Quote from: Lilibeth on February 18, 2014, 01:13:43 AM

I can understand the emotional blackmail he'll try on you - no DreamFlyer99, never mind the dogs, please stay with your daughter till you feel you can handle things... . Please don't misunderstand me, DreamFlyer99 - would you like to try and just keep your phone off? at least for a few days? You need to recuperate and get your strength back. Thinking of you and wishing only peacefulness for you... .

ooh that was too good lilibeth, i'm getting my dander up just reading it ... .

I'm doing fairly well, thanks to my T. She's seeing me weekly right now which is such good help!

i had an awesome realization today--i have people who love me not for what i can do for them, but simply because I'm me! What a great feeling that any of my children absolutely welcome me into their homes for as long as needed.

Then I'm sad because it's taken me this long, till age 60, to accept this truth. But glad i realized before i die.

i had gotten to a point where i wondered when that time would ever come in marriage where my husband just loved me because of who i am, and had started realizing that would probably never happen. And here are family and some friends who just plain accept me that way. :)

i looked back at the week just spent at my daughter's and saw how i kept asking "what can i do? Do you want me to wash dishes? Do laundry?" and they all kept saying, "Naw, it's fine, we have all that covered, just relax." And i saw that i was still in my Old Way of Thinking--"i must show my worthiness of being taken care of, my reason for being valuable." And when we're loved, just plain loved, there's no proving needed. We're just awesome and people recognize that!

Thanks for checking on me Lilibeth!

Quote from: DreamFlyer99 on February 26, 2014, 12:30:00 AM

You raised good children, DF99, who chose good mates. Be proud! I only hope to emulate your success, though ultimately its up to our kids of course :^)

DreamFlyer99 it is absolutely wonderful to see you back here. Have been really worried and wondering if you were all right. Am so glad you are on the way up.

Thank you for sharing your insights, DreamFlyer99 - I got a real start reading what you've written about the Old Way of Thinking - "i must show my worthiness of being taken care of, my reason for being valuable." This is what i keep doing all the time - keep trying to prove that i am worth being here... . He works, and somehow he conveys to me every single day that he is working so hard and i am at home (completely forgetting that i too used to work, and still do, though online, when i get work) - i try to ensure that there is no tension in the home - try to do my best to make it comfortable... . and kept feeling guilty too... . now i know better... . It does seem difficult, doesn't it, to accept that there are people who will love us just for being us... . takes time, i guess to let it sink in, and stay inside of us, firmly so that we don't swing back the other way... .

This is another line that got to me: 'i had gotten to a point where i wondered when that time would ever come in marriage where my husband just loved me because of who i am, and had started realizing that would probably never happen.' Got to me because of late, i too have been thinking along these lines - all these years i waited but now i know that this is never going to happen. That cosy feeling of emotional comfort is never going to happen. That is also when i realized that now it is not love but just plain peace that i want at home, and the times when my daughter visits me (she lives abroad, so she can come home only rarely, though we are in touch every day via msging). I was beginning to wonder if everything had really been for nought.

There is so much unlearning and cleaning up to do and let the new learning take its place, DreamFlyer99.

Turkish you gave me so much hope with your first post to me regarding my daughter... . i now see that she sees how much effort i am putting in to lead as normal a life i can possibly live, and is herself much stronger... . she used to look on so helplessly... . that is slowly changing. And, yes, DramFlyer99, i think seeing us will help make our kids strong.

I'm glad and grateful that i am not alone in my struggle. And importantly that there are hands that will help me up... .

Stay well and stay safe, DreamFlyer99. We're with you... .

Quote from: Lilibeth on February 26, 2014, 09:04:00 PM

Turkish you gave me so much hope with your first post to me regarding my daughter... . i now see that she sees how much effort i am putting in to lead as normal a life i can possibly live, and is herself much stronger... . she used to look on so helplessly... . that is slowly changing. And, yes, DreamFlyer99, i think seeing us will help make our kids strong.

That is great! Most of us know our FOO issues, or are figuring them out. I admire the heck out of all of you on the Staying Board. You are being that great example for your children to emulate (not falsely mirror). I only hope I can stay strong for my kids so the generational cycle stopsl with us. The battle won for ourselves first, then by proxy for our children.

I was so happy to realize that I DO have worth besides what I can do for another person--and it is really difficult to get there when you are constantly bombarded with your lack of worth. I used to think when I would go stay with my daughter and her family in England that what I felt was just that relaxation that was only possible when I wasn't having to walk on eggshells. Now I realize it was actually not the ABSENCE of walking on eggshells but the PRESENCE of being loved for who I am!

I too know the drive for "peace" in the home, Lilibeth. The hard bit was realizing "keeping the peace" is entirely different that "peace making." Keeping the peace is a juggling act, a watch your step, soothing an adult who should soothe himself, and a job at which I would always fall short because the other person wasn't even trying to play along!

PeaceMAKING, on the other hand, involves these hard changes we are trying to make where we are establishing our boundaries, learning to communicate differently, learning where we need to stick up for ourselves, learning what it means to truly take care of ourselves. As a Christian I always think of Jesus in the temple getting the money-changers out of there in a rowdy fashion. It took solid action to make the temple what it was supposed to be, not soothing, not watching his step... . In the same way when we take solid action to change our own behavior it can go a couple of ways. Our SO can begin to change too, or they can react so badly that they fight back.

It takes a willingness for that other person to look at where they are responsible in the r/s, and they might not be. They've been perfectly comfortable in their roaring at us--after all, they did get us to back off--so why change? Sometimes when we try different things we can effect a change in the whole r/s. It just may be for the improvement of the r/s or for the breakup of the r/s.

My uBPDh is now seeking help for himself. It would be great if he is able to deal with his FOO issues and his anger and the rest of it. But I'm not rushing back into the situation, my mental/physical/emotional health has to matter to me. I've removed myself from the pain of it all for now, and we'll see what happens down the road.

One of the things that has been a part of whatever all is going on with him is that we have a gazillion (yes, I counted) unfinished projects at our house, like whole rooms of the house. Currently we cannot use 2 rooms of the house and haven't been able to in one case for over a year, and in the other it's been 8 years. That in itself is crazymaking! I have no reason to rush back to that even though I miss my doggies. So I'm trying to take this part of the journey intuitively and not rush into decisions of the moment, but take the longer view. Maybe this time apart will make a difference for my H and he will truly take on the job of emotional healing.

I am on hold. So for now since I have children who welcome me into their homes, that is what i'll do. The rest of the picture is unclear right now.

babble babble babble!

This whole thing about 'being worth it' bothers me too, DreamFlyer99 and the thing is it needn't. I guess it stems from some kind of insecurity about ourselves? that if we are not worth it, no one will care for us... . yet our children care for us, our friends online and in real life care about us - then why do we find it so difficult to accept it without trying to find some justification... . NO MORE... . i think we should be done with this DreamFlyer99. Seriously.

DreamFlyer99 thank you so much for explaining the difference between 'keeping the peace', and 'peace MAKING'. I get it. Thank you for teaching me with this. It's very important, i feel, and i want to absorb it. Powerful words you have used here... . 'learning what it means to truly take care of ourselves.' I am now slowly learning not to put my mental/physical/emotional issues on the back burner... . am beginning to learn how to make me matter to me... . He's not going to change, DreamFlyer99... . i have to... . It's amazing how it is that i am responsible for everything - even about him - 'if you love me you will see to it that i am not upset'!

Love the 'I am on hold', DreamFlyer99... . hope you will heal quickly, DreamFlyer99... . till then, yes, enjoy being YOU... .

Quote from: Lilibeth on February 27, 2014, 09:10:08 PM

Hi Lilibeth. Do you have a hard time taking compliments? I know I do. Stems back from mom: "you're the greatest son!" To: "you have everybody fooled, they don't know the real Turkish like I do!" Thus, due to her splitting, I learned to reject both criticism and praise... . though praise more so. Internalized the painting black until I was in my mid 30s. And then had a strong sense of myself and my core values. And then met uBPDx and then those wounds were torn open... . 6 years and two kids later, here I am.

Oh yes, Turkish, i do. Have become so used to being told i'm rubbish that i cannot take any compliments - feel very scared to - for two reasons, actually - one is, if my husband hears it, i've had it, because he will ennumerate all my faults, errors, mistakes and the mis-judgment of the other person and how she cannot discrimminate etc... and how she does not know any better and how everyone's standards are so low. (God help me if it is a man who has complimented me, cos then i'm totally finished - called promiscuous and what not)... . and the other is, after all this, i can't believe i am complimentable (if there is a word like that)... . I do have many achievements to my credit, but it is hard to believe in them - am always finding ways and means of passing on the credit to others and denigrating myself - cos then at least there will be peace at home. (DreamFlyer99 has showed the difference between keeping the peace and peacemaking - so that has clarified things a little more - just have to work on it).

These words "you have everybody fooled, they don't know the real Turkish like I do!' must have hurt you terribly - just reading it is hurting me... . so i can imagine how hurt you must have felt... . then, naturally, it is hard to accept praise, Turkish.

I think, from what i've been getting from here - we just have to learn to believe in ourselves, Turkish, and not wait for either criticism or praise from anyone - anyone at all... . See here, we have all accepted each other for what we are, and respect each other - i think we need to hang on to this... . we don't need to hurt by ourselves any more... .

We are human, so we will make mistakes - but we have to believe that that is not damning. And just as surely we have to believe that we can do a lot----that we are, each one of us, blessed with talent, and, by and by, only concentrate on that. It's difficult, as i am finding out, but i think we owe it to ourselves. I also think, Turkish, that we have to, at some time or other, stop thinking of ourselves as extensions of anyone, and live up to our own unique best with what we have... . and i do believe that we are all blessed in some way or other. We have to force this to the fore, and push back all else.

Did i make any sense there, Turkish?

Quote from: Lilibeth on February 27, 2014, 10:44:39 PM

Yes, Lilibeth, it makes sense. I was accused by uBPDx of lacking character (!) by "failing"" her. I know what I am. I know who I am. I know my core values, and live by them. Yet I got lost in the FOG, and let that get in my head. She respects me greatly as a father, but I am an utter failure as a partner in her eyesr. How to reconcile that? Sorry to inject issues from the leaving board... . I took value from trying, and that was wrong. I'm left adrift, with myself. I now value myself, and I hope my kids mirror that (not in a narc way).

Turkish, i'd copied this down from an old post of Waverider's - Ask yourself "Am I proud of being me and what I do, or am I making excuses to avoid admitting that I am not proud to be me?"

Your answer should be you are proud of being you... . you just have to worry about whether what you are doing or how you are being is honorable... .

He also said these very powerful words - Do not shame yourself. I was so touched by this that i looked up the word 'shame'. This is what i found - Thanks to criticisms and praise, both being used in conflict, we somehow believe that we are defective or unacceptable, and this can lead us to being defensive, depressed or anxious. We have to find ways to be loving toward ourselves and accepting that we are human, that we have limitations, but we also have strengths (which have got kind of pushed under the ground). Our starting point has to be 'i am a person of worth' and treat ourselves with respect. We all make mistakes but where we go wrong is that we think of ourselves in terms of those mistakes (i know i do, Turkish, and am fighting that).

While i was writing this a post came in from you - here's to that -

I don't think you should let what she says about you not being a good partner get to you - as you've said, you know who you are. And obviously you have character or you would have left your kids... . Don't decide inside of yourself that you are a failure as a partner - you are a wonderfully kind person, or you wouldn't be a source of healing for so many here... . You are a good person - you cannot be good in one situation and not in another... . Absolutely - you must value yourself. It's hard not to have a loving partner on the journey of life - but you have your kids, Turkish and while you will need to equip them for life, the way you deal with your loss will also teach them to deal with how to handle life with its various complications, and importantly, you have YOU... . and you have your life... .

Quote from: Lilibeth on February 27, 2014, 11:15:44 PM

Thank you, Lilibeth. Tears flow, from what you wrote. I don't know why, but that's ok. Thank you so much for wise words. Prayers tonight, for DF99, for you, for all of us...

Awww you guys! What a sweet and loving interchange that was!

I know it made me feel crazy to have spent my life with important people who told me I was something other than what I felt I was. All along I knew down deep that I was a kind and loving person, but my mother and my H vacillated between the good of me and the horrible and defective-ness of me. So confusing! But the fact that I felt so confused by all that was a good thing--I doubted not only what I believed myself to be but also doubted what they said I was. In this case doubt was a helpful feeling since it made me question, eventually to the point of realizing what was Truth. And I knew I wasn't making it up, if I looked around at what others thought of me, at the things I had accomplished and my motives in doing them, the Truth was apparent.

I think hitting that point in my understanding is what made me finally really doubt the interactions between my H and me. He would react out of his insecurity or whatever and sometimes I would even say, "Another person might have said this:... . " and in that way I was telling myself (and him) what a 'normal' response would be, one that wasn't loaded with all those deeply held yet wrong self-beliefs. And I just kept seeing and seeing how difficult this r/s was, in that I could never expect a less loaded response from him.

Sadly, all that realization seemed to pull me away from my total dependence on and loving respect for him. And I say "sadly" because I wish things hadn't gone this way, I wish the r/s wasn't one where I had to realize that it would always be a struggle where I would be the loser because I believed in the rules of loving-kindness with others.

I was proud when my T said my decision to leave that night was not one where I was reacting out of my childhood hurts. It was painful to realize how much of my adulthood was reinforced and reacted to through my PTSD and my dissociating, but if it took me till 60 to learn to respond out of the Adult, so be it. At least I have learned.

It isn't a failing of ours to not be a "good partner" to someone with BPD, I think it's a sign that we haven't totally bought into the dysfunction of it all. And when our partner is someone who can never even be happy with themselves, how can WE make them happy? We can't.

DreamFlyer99, most often when i read your post, i wonder if you aren't writing about my life... . your life and mine run so close... . so, so close... . even up to the way your mother vacillated about you. It was only when she was lying on her deathbed and i was looking after her that she told me she had treated me badly and asked for forgiveness... . but my whole life is gone, almost... . I totally doubted myself and was not ready to believe it when a dear friend who met me after 40 years told me how she remembered me... . She led me to another couple of college mates who also told me their memories of me. I'm still having trouble with this. I wrote down what she said, and have been forcing my mind to go back to see how i was, and thus find out who i really am under all this pain and heartache... . how far away have i come?

After she went away in 2011, the way my husband treated me finally brought me to my knees. This was the total accumulation of 26 years... . I was finished - emotionally, mentally, psychologically and physically, till i came to this Family. Now, pulling out all my feelings and emotions, and examining every small thing in me, it has come as a huge, huge blow and shock that he would never be the partner i longed for, and thought he would become (as he had promised time and time again). I realized that any looking after of myself, dealing with my hurts and sadnesses, i would have to do by myself... . any happiness, i would have to enjoy by myself... . plus handle him and look after him also. And, this is what, as it has for you, DreamFlyer99, pulled me 'away from my total dependence on and loving respect for him.' This really has been the most difficult thing to accept, that life is going to be a lonely struggle. This, i think would also help us to realize our responsibilities to ourselves... . the need to give ourselves treats and feel-good chances.

No DreamFlyer99, please, please do not think that you will be the loser... . please... . you are not a loser - How can you be when you have so much love in you to share with us (and i am truly grateful for that... . and feel blessed)... . so much wisdom that you have gained so painfully, you share so willingly... . We are all witnesses to a loving, kind YOU.

I too feel this way - 'if it took me till 60 to learn to respond out of the Adult, so be it. At least I have learned.'

These words are powerful, and sum up where we are at, i feel, DreamFlyer99: 'It isn't a failing of ours to not be a "good partner" to someone with BPD, I think it's a sign that we haven't totally bought into the dysfunction of it all. And when our partner is someone who can never even be happy with themselves, how can WE make them happy? We can't.' Turkish, i think you too could gain from this... . you are a good partner... . just that it wasn't appreciated by one person... . but that doesn't change YOU. DreamFlyer99 has given us some more signposts for our journey... . thanks DreamFLyer99.

Quote from: Lilibeth on March 02, 2014, 08:48:09 PM

I too feel this way - 'if it took me till 60 to learn to respond out of the Adult, so be it. At least I have learned.'

These words are powerful, and sum up where we are at, i feel, DreamFlyer99: 'It isn't a failing of ours to not be a "good partner" to someone with BPD, I think it's a sign that we haven't totally bought into the dysfunction of it all. And when our partner is someone who can never even be happy with themselves, how can WE make them happy? We can't.' Turkish, i think you too could gain from this... . you are a good partner... . just that it wasn't appreciated by one person... . but that doesn't change YOU. DreamFlyer99 has given us some more signposts for our journey... . thanks DreamFLyer99.

DF99's words are wise, and you are right. I am not there on internalizing it yet. Intellectually, I know you both are right. Mine even wrote in her journal "Turkish is everything a woman could want in a man, but I just can't love him." I stopped buying into the dysfunction, and did abandon her in a way while still living together, so she abandoned me in reality and threw her paramour in my face for almost five grueling months until she was gone. I know on some level it wasn't personal. Perhaps it isn't personal for any of us. If not us, then someone else would be there on the other side of the dysfunction. I just can't wrap my head around the fact that I am worthy of love. The last gf years before my uBPDx mother of our children said, "you're the best bf ever!" then dumped me. No explanation. She later shacked up with a much older married cop and had an illegitimate child which she has raised by herself (I still keep in contact by proxy, since my godson's parents are friends of hers). Even way back in high school, my gf liked me a whole lot, then dumped me out of thin air. Then tried to recycle me, but I didn't bite. Perhaps it's my choice in women? Waifs of different flavors... . God help me. I'm middle aged and haven't much of a clue at this point. Thankfully, I have two little rug monsters to keep me busy and hopefully out of trouble. (Sorry for the thread hijack, DF99, glad you are in a good place!)

Obviously you are still hurting, Turkish. And given her actions and what she has said, it is not surprising. Reading it is hurting me, so imagine you... . Give yourself time to get over it - and while giving yourself time, be compasionate towards yourself and kind to yourself. What she said is in her reality - not yours. You know who you are - you know your reality. You know, through your children, your true friends and all of us here that you are worthy of love. But you need to tell yourself that loud and clear and long enough till it sticks in your mind. I never thought i was worth even a word or a look, and i can never ever forget how DreamFlyer99 said 'sweet Lilibeth' to me in one of her first posts... . and i thought, if this person who has not seen me, does not know me, can through my words reach out straight to my core and call me that, there must be something in me. You had reached out too, Turkish... . and so this is what you start building on. You know, Turkish, what i learned from here is that we also have to peel away all the layers that, down the years, and through our experiences have laid layer upon layer on our hearts, our thinking, and our feelings. We need to do that... . We need to sift out our own thinking, to set ourselves right as well, Turkish... . apart, quite apart from what our BPDs tell us about ourselves or how they behave towards us. It's not too late to change the way we think... . but we need to think of ourselves first, and for that we need to be kind. As Waverider wisely said in our topic regarding self-confidence - just take one tiny step and work on that and consolidate that. What you have left behind, leave it behind. Lock the door and throw away the key. That is not your reference, unless it is to see how far ahead you have come... . You have a new lease on life every day... .

Sharing something i got from another post - What, exactly, do you "accept" when you work on "acceptance?" Randi Kreger posted what Linehan wrote about acceptance: 'You can either be miserable or you can figure out a way to accept the reality of your own life. Often when you've accepted you have this sense of letting go of the struggle. It's just like you've been struggling and now you're not. Sometimes, if you have accepted, you just have this sense of being centered, like you feel centered inside yourself somehow.

You may have a lot of sadness. Acceptance often goes with a lot of sadness actually, but even though you've got sadness, there's a feeling like a burden's lifted. Usually if you've accepted, you feel, well, ready to move on with your life. Sort of feel free, ready to move. So that's what it feels like.

Pain is pain. Suffering, agony, are pain plus non-acceptance. So if you take pain, add non-acceptance you end up with suffering. Radical acceptance transforms suffering into ordinary pain.

To which Waverider has given a brilliantly clear explanation: I think before you can apply acceptance to anyone else, or a situation, you have to accept yourself and your own natural feelings towards a situation. If you straight off try using logic to deny your own feelings towards a situation you are forcing acceptance, it is not coming naturally. Acceptance in those situations can prove to be no more than a facade of which you would feel guilty to acknowledge because you are trying to force the principle of being a better person.

When things are bad, you have to first accept your own feeling towards that, pain/ disappointment/envy/ anger or whatever is applicable. Accept that these feelings are normal, dont berate yourself for feeling them. Acknowledge why you are being triggered this way, see it for what it is. Then let it go as unavoidable. From there you can better move on to accept the situation as it truly is.

Full acceptance from the soul is difficult and takes a high degree of self confidence. It is too easy to think you are accepting, when really all you are doing is biting your tongue, racking up resentment for later.

Acceptance is a decision of the Wise mind,. The logical mind can provide the justification for it, but the emotional mind still needs to be heard before being placated.

So you see, Turkish, in fact, we are all trying to deal with this. We are trying to finally accept that we have to become independent... . but for that we have to first fully accept the situation we find ourselves in... . and for that we need to be kind to ourselves... .

No worries about "hijacking" Turkish, I feel like this is "our" conversation, not all about me.

You're right, Lilibeth, about the process needing to be done more intuitively for us to truly learn and grow.

It's kinda like we're all growing up together!

Turkish, just think, you have 2 decades before you're my age and Lilibeth's--that's enough time to see your children grow, maybe even marry or have babies, right? That's a loong time! Then you have even more time after that, as do I, at least another 2 decades. All that to say, you are young and have much more life ahead of you... . it's a tough time right now, but we all help each other get through and make choices toward a better future, right?

Quote from: DreamFlyer99 on March 02, 2014, 11:20:22 PM

Way to put it into perspective! Had the kids all weekend. Based on how D22mos was clinging to me the whole time, that girl's going into a convent! S4 can provide the grandkids. Heh. Ah, I guess feelings like this are natural... .

So you see, Turkish, lots of fun time left for you. Your kids love you and you had a great time with them - that should really give you a huugggggeeeee boost up. Plus, as DreamFlyer99 echoed for me too, you have 'a loong time!' and 'you are young and have much more life ahead of you.' Even as you acknowledge that you are in a rough time zone now, accept too that you have a lot going for you, you're a caring person, you're a great Dad, and go on ahead. Do one small thing just for yourself as a token of your having had a great weekend! And, you are not alone on your journey... .

DreamFlyer99 i do hope you are on the way to feeling better and stronger.

Sending loads of positive energies to you, DreamFlyer99 and Turkish.

Thank you sweet Lilibeth (you see I can tell from the way you are with others, very loving and kind!)

I am in an okay place at the moment, not to say I don't have some emotional uprisings from time to time. My T has been great to see me weekly and helps me put things into perspective, like what I should be doing for myself at the moment. She told me I should be "convalescing" like I just had surgery or something major, because these are hard times with big decisions ahead. It's hard for me to think in those terms!

I did have a texting chat with my H, and it sounds like he's taking some very positive steps toward his own healing. His counselor is pretty hardcore with him and told him that my leaving may have been the most loving thing I've done for either of us. He knows he wouldn't have sought help without my having left, so even though it's been rough he is seeing the good in the situation. It's still pretty much about him right now, but I think it needs to be. There was a little more vulnerability than I've seen in him in a long while, and he was able to hear a few of my thoughts on what has gone on, but like I said, he's so amazed by the things he's realizing about his self hate and how it has played out into mean behavior toward me that it's pretty much a story of him.

Oddly that made me feel better. I had a hard time after talking to my T because it made me think about missing the doggies and not being in my comfortable bed, stuff like that, plus not knowing what's in the future. I'm not the hugest fan of change, yunno?

Turkish, I'm glad you had a good time with your kiddos, and don't think you're joking about that convent! Staying at my oldest daughter's is a reminder of why 60 year olds shouldn't have teenaged girls--our hearts can't take it!

Quote from: DreamFlyer99 on March 03, 2014, 10:19:14 PM

Heh. I'll be in my 50s when she's a teenager. That will be hard enough on the ole ticker... and all the girls after S4, I already see it at this age. I'm glad things are calming down and progressing positively for you and your H. Patience may be the key. Missing your puppies must be hard. Hopefully you can see them soon too. You are in our prayers!

You really need to rest and recuperate, DreamFlyer99 - it is like convalescing, for your heart has really gone through a terrible shredding. At this time, i'm sure everything is still seeming heavy... . you need to rest, DreamFlyer99 and just soak in all the TLC being showered on you.

I'm so, so happy that your husband is seeing a therapist who is hardcore. He will now be forced to review everything about himself. It will always be about him, DreamFlyer99, but if he can at least hear what you have to say, at least some times, it may be a little easier for you.

It's usually like this, isn't it - there has to be an earthquake and thunder and lightning and huge suffering and from that comes a tiny flower of hope... . How much you suffered, but if there is the glimmer of hope, that is something... .

Once again your saying that you are 'not the hugest fan of change' is an echo of my feelings. I take a long, long time to adjust to change, another handle for my husband to get at me with... .

You're definitely sounding more at peace, DreamFlyer99, and though it's a long haul ahead, please use this time to just pamper yourself and let yourself be pampered... .

I guess when you feel stronger, you may need to do some recalibration with the tilt towards YOU so that you will be stronger next time around. I don't think we will ever be free of that threat over our heads about when they will just take off... . but we can try to be prepared... .

I don't know if this happens to you, DreamFlyer99 - when my husband realizes that he has been nasty, after a bit he becomes very attentive and tries to make up in all sorts of ways by lending a helping hand... . that used to make me melt, and i would try to see things from his point of view and tell myself i could be more tolerant or be a better person etc... . now i just step away, and raise my boundary wall a little higher, for i don't think i can really take much more heart-bashing... . i'm becoming more of my own person - that is entirely due to this Family and especially the caring hand that you, Waverider, Turkish, an0ught and others have extended. Of course, i don't know how it is going to be the next time around, whether i will be able to foil the onslaught, but for now, am more sure of myself.

Yes, missing your puppies must be very difficult - how loving and loyal and totally non-judgmental dogs are.

Turkish, you'll be a great Dad for your teenagers... . you are a great Dad even now! Put the hurts and sorrows out of your mind. The happiness with your children would have shown you that there really is no place for them right now.

You are just a prayer away DreamFlyer99... .

Thank you, Lilibeth :)

My H would sometimes do the same, but when I started realizing that the nice times were really just the eye of the storm and that the storm would indeed hit again then I was less taken in by his attention. And you're right, it's that 'becoming more of your own person' that comes into play. You start seeing yourself as an individual rather than just a reflective surface for the spouse. And it's all practice, really, like everything else, learning to respond with thought rather than just reacting. And I know you've seen with me that there are generally plenty of opportunities to make the lousy choices too!

I guess I am in "wait and see" mode right now--I will have to see if he can indeed make changes enough to keep me from ever living that way again. And I don't know if he will or how long it will take, so I guess I'm just waiting. For now.

I don't know how I stumbled over to L5 when I thought I already made up my mind. Anyhow I found myself drawn your conversation. There are so many healing points. Self-care being on the top of the list and being easy on yourself about human imperfections. I love the recovery I am reading. It's obvious that you have all worked hard on yourselves. I believe I have come a long way but still have a long way to go. I am struggling because I have finally gotten good at setting my boundaries and validating myself although I question it often. I know in my heart I must do this to heal. Sometimes I would like to just revisit my ignorance.To go back to that place where nothing has yet been revealed and I am smoothing it over to minimize the "episodes". Though I know that the knot inside my stomach was only getting tighter, even though to the outside world all looked perfect. The tool of Detachment has done just that... . Created detachment. That has been diificult for me since connectivity is where I thrive. Could I live in a marriage that I know will never contain that truth? Just when I "know" there is only one sane answer, I begin to wonder if is possible to be happy and healthy and honest if I stay. Is that crazy thinking, still? I too have great admiration for those who are staying... . In sickness and in health? Then I think, one life. I guess I need to come back to the moment and take it one day at a time and remind myself of the blessing. Even though it is HARD, I do feel grateful for the understanding and acceptancce I have gained... . And for what I have learned. Thank you "this thread" and the whole site for helping me not only to survive this, but to find glimpses of quality life in between.

Landslide2014, i'm so glad you stumbled onto this page - yes, healing is what we are trying to do - all of us here... . we are in different situations, but the hurts we bear and feel are the same... . I'm realizing that healing myself is not so easy. Too many thoughts of the past intrude take away from the moments we set aside for our healing. Yet, i've learnt from here, how important it is to do this for ourselves, how necessary. I never thought i was important enough, or that it really mattered to anyone... . i gained from DreamFlyer99, Turkish, Waverider and others - that i do matter and, most of all, i have to matter to myself. The beauty of being here is that we help each other matter... .

DreamFlyer99 talked about how we can make mistakes, but then we are only human, BUT, we owe it to ourselves not to beat ourselves up - we're already getting enough of that. Landslide2014, we are all still working on ourselves. Living with a BPD is not a time-bound thing. It just goes on, and all the time, and every day in one form or another... . So then, what is our Polestar? - just us... .

Landslide2014, i'm sure the wiser people in this Family will be able to help you better here, but i can tell you that for myself, though i separated myself mentally from my husband, thinking that was detachment, i was still hurting every time he subjected me to a verbal shredding, or some kind of assault on my emotions. I've learnt since that only if i heal myself, can i really be detached, as in, not allow myself to get hurt and demolished. The tools we learn from here are for ourselves - to protect ourselves, and function in a dysfunctional environment.

Your reality is different from his. I can really feel your confusion and pain, Landslide2014... . it's an awful state to be in. Just remember, for now, you are not alone, you are with all of us here. It's not about staying or leaving... . i think it is about ourselves... . and the truth that we are going to live with... . but, no matter what happens, you come first for you, and you need to be whole and healed... . and then think of the next step.

I believe we cannot have too many unknowns to deal with - we can deal with our unknowns only if we have one known thing to go by. And that is us, ourselves.

Thank you for those words of wisdom, lilibeth. They have created some reinforcement for me. Particularly, in the simple truth that looking inward is really all I have. It's the old lemonade cliche... . "... . If you're made up of lemons and squeeze it, what comes out is lemonade." In other words, what is in the core of my soul is how I am and what I will be able to offer. I am working on strengthening that core and I am realizing that what I can change is myself. I cannot change others. This gets me closer to the peace that I desire.

So, Turkish, what I do to validate myself really comes from support right now. I journal, write here, speak with my T, reach out to my sponsor or a supportive friend to review what I am struggling with. The validation does not come so easily right now. Reaching out for help, also does not come easily but I know, that until I practice a bit more, that I need to hear my validation from others. I am good at putting my amnesia into effect when my BPDH is in a downward spiral, and while I do not wish to harp on his inabilities, I need to recognize them right now so that I can reinforce the notion that his actions are not caused by me. I frighten myself sometimes and think... . "Maybe I am the one with the disorder... . " I race aroundo in my head considering that the projection that comes my way is actually the truth. Logically and factually it does not add up, but still I worry. And consider it. This very notion invalidates my thinking, so it is a good point you bring up, and I realize it may be something I have to pay closer attention to. I do have to say that when I behave healthy, self care,... . Gym, yoga, walking the dog, helping someone, swimming... . I feel more confident and empowered and less angry. Hmmmm? Another Lightbulb ... . Thank you for your help.

Lilibeth, you said:

Excerpt

Your reality is different from his. I can really feel your confusion and pain, Landslide2014... . it's an awful state to be in. Just remember, for now, you are not alone, you are with all of us here. It's not about staying or leaving... . i think it is about ourselves... . and the truth that we are going to live with... . but, no matter what happens, you come first for you, and you need to be whole and healed... . and then think of the next step.

I believe we cannot have too many unknowns to deal with - we can deal with our unknowns only if we have one known thing to go by. And that is us, ourselves.

I'm seeing you grow in confidence and self-knowledge by great leaps! So wonderful!

Landslide2014,

I so feel ya on so much of what you're struggling with! I tried that detached observation sort of thing, but like Lilibeth said, we are still feeling the pain daily. Without becoming totally dissociated we will feel pain when we're hurt. And dissociation is no way to live the fullness of our lives, I lived that way for some years without realizing it.

What my T says is her goal for me is that I be "fully awake in all areas of my life." In other words, living in Truth and Honesty, seeing things as they truly are and not trying to fool myself so I can survive. I want to do much more than survive, if you know what I mean?

This whole thing is a process... . I couldn't have told you a year ago that today I would be living at my daughter's house having chosen to remove myself from the home that felt less safe and less safe, wondering what's down the road. And my H is doing some really great things for himself that he never would have done otherwise, but I still hesitate to believe he will continue on his journey since I've heard so many words from him before about change.

So I wait. And remain open to what the journey holds. I'm trying to be more intuitive and to run ahead less, and see where it goes. I have much less control than I'd like to!

Turkish, it was so sweet of you to say that you admire the heck out of us ladies! Support is good--no, wonderful. :)

You're right, Landslide2014. You are all you have. I've been learning that, and also learning how to take care of myself. It isn't easy especially if you have been shoved into the last place ever, and being pushed back every time you kind of surface - so climbing back up to where you should be is very difficult. You'll find a lot of caring here to help you as you try to get back up.

Like DreamFlyer99 said 'dissociation is no way to live the fullness of our lives,' but as her therapist told her, her goal has to be, to be"fully awake in all areas of my life." Thank you for sharing that, DreamFlyer99. Am struggling with that right now - feel so disassociated right now as things are going on, that all i want to do is to pull the cover over my head and hide - so to be fully awake is really challenging and yet deep down i know that that is how i want to be... . to be aware of every moment of my life and in my life. I know that no matter how much my husband swears he is changing and trying to change, i will have to work out my life... .

I feel so safe here and at peace... . stronger too to work on what is happening right now. I can feel myself unwinding... .

BPDFamily.com

Relationship Partner with BPD (Straight and LGBT+) => Romantic Relationship | Bettering a Relationship or Reversing a Breakup => Topic started by: DreamFlyer99 on February 12, 2014, 07:44:00 PM