dealing with the roller-coaster, aka "forgetting everything i've learned."

[Turkish]

Turkish you gave me so much hope with your first post to me regarding my daughter... . i now see that she sees how much effort i am putting in to lead as normal a life i can possibly live, and is herself much stronger... . she used to look on so helplessly... . that is slowly changing. And, yes, DreamFlyer99, i think seeing us will help make our kids strong.

That is great! Most of us know our FOO issues, or are figuring them out. I admire the heck out of all of you on the Staying Board. You are being that great example for your children to emulate (not falsely mirror). I only hope I can stay strong for my kids so the generational cycle stopsl with us. The battle won for ourselves first, then by proxy for our children.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Lilibeth]

We'll all stay strong, Turkish, for our kids... all of us... . in this journey together... .

[Turkish]

We'll all stay strong, Turkish, for our kids... all of us... . in this journey together... .

[DreamFlyer99]

I was so happy to realize that I DO have worth besides what I can do for another person--and it is really difficult to get there when you are constantly bombarded with your lack of worth. I used to think when I would go stay with my daughter and her family in England that what I felt was just that relaxation that was only possible when I wasn't having to walk on eggshells. Now I realize it was actually not the ABSENCE of walking on eggshells but the PRESENCE of being loved for who I am!

I too know the drive for "peace" in the home, Lilibeth. The hard bit was realizing "keeping the peace" is entirely different that "peace making." Keeping the peace is a juggling act, a watch your step, soothing an adult who should soothe himself, and a job at which I would always fall short because the other person wasn't even trying to play along!

PeaceMAKING, on the other hand, involves these hard changes we are trying to make where we are establishing our boundaries, learning to communicate differently, learning where we need to stick up for ourselves, learning what it means to truly take care of ourselves. As a Christian I always think of Jesus in the temple getting the money-changers out of there in a rowdy fashion. It took solid action to make the temple what it was supposed to be, not soothing, not watching his step... . In the same way when we take solid action to change our own behavior it can go a couple of ways. Our SO can begin to change too, or they can react so badly that they fight back.

It takes a willingness for that other person to look at where they are responsible in the r/s, and they might not be. They've been perfectly comfortable in their roaring at us--after all, they did get us to back off--so why change? Sometimes when we try different things we can effect a change in the whole r/s. It just may be for the improvement of the r/s or for the breakup of the r/s.

My uBPDh is now seeking help for himself. It would be great if he is able to deal with his FOO issues and his anger and the rest of it. But I'm not rushing back into the situation, my mental/physical/emotional health has to matter to me. I've removed myself from the pain of it all for now, and we'll see what happens down the road.

One of the things that has been a part of whatever all is going on with him is that we have a gazillion (yes, I counted) unfinished projects at our house, like whole rooms of the house. Currently we cannot use 2 rooms of the house and haven't been able to in one case for over a year, and in the other it's been 8 years. That in itself is crazymaking! I have no reason to rush back to that even though I miss my doggies. So I'm trying to take this part of the journey intuitively and not rush into decisions of the moment, but take the longer view. Maybe this time apart will make a difference for my H and he will truly take on the job of emotional healing.

I am on hold. So for now since I have children who welcome me into their homes, that is what i'll do. The rest of the picture is unclear right now.

babble babble babble!

[Lilibeth]

This whole thing about 'being worth it' bothers me too, DreamFlyer99 and the thing is it needn't. I guess it stems from some kind of insecurity about ourselves? that if we are not worth it, no one will care for us... . yet our children care for us, our friends online and in real life care about us - then why do we find it so difficult to accept it without trying to find some justification... . NO MORE... . i think we should be done with this DreamFlyer99. Seriously.

DreamFlyer99 thank you so much for explaining the difference between 'keeping the peace', and 'peace MAKING'. I get it. Thank you for teaching me with this. It's very important, i feel, and i want to absorb it. Powerful words you have used here... . 'learning what it means to truly take care of ourselves.' I am now slowly learning not to put my mental/physical/emotional issues on the back burner... . am beginning to learn how to make me matter to me... . He's not going to change, DreamFlyer99... . i have to... . It's amazing how it is that i am responsible for everything - even about him - 'if you love me you will see to it that i am not upset'!

Love the 'I am on hold', DreamFlyer99... . hope you will heal quickly, DreamFlyer99... . till then, yes, enjoy being YOU... .

[Turkish]

This whole thing about 'being worth it' bothers me too, DreamFlyer99 and the thing is it needn't. I guess it stems from some kind of insecurity about ourselves? that if we are not worth it, no one will care for us... . yet our children care for us, our friends online and in real life care about us - then why do we find it so difficult to accept it without trying to find some justification... . NO MORE... . i think we should be done with this DreamFlyer99. Seriously. ...

Hi Lilibeth. Do you have a hard time taking compliments? I know I do. Stems back from mom: "you're the greatest son!" To: "you have everybody fooled, they don't know the real Turkish like I do!" Thus, due to her splitting, I learned to reject both criticism and praise... . though praise more so. Internalized the painting black until I was in my mid 30s. And then had a strong sense of myself and my core values. And then met uBPDx and then those wounds were torn open... . 6 years and two kids later, here I am.

[Lilibeth]

Oh yes, Turkish, i do. Have become so used to being told i'm rubbish that i cannot take any compliments - feel very scared to - for two reasons, actually - one is, if my husband hears it, i've had it, because he will ennumerate all my faults, errors, mistakes and the mis-judgment of the other person and how she cannot discrimminate etc... and how she does not know any better and how everyone's standards are so low. (God help me if it is a man who has complimented me, cos then i'm totally finished - called promiscuous and what not)... . and the other is, after all this, i can't believe i am complimentable (if there is a word like that)... . I do have many achievements to my credit, but it is hard to believe in them - am always finding ways and means of passing on the credit to others and denigrating myself - cos then at least there will be peace at home. (DreamFlyer99 has showed the difference between keeping the peace and peacemaking - so that has clarified things a little more - just have to work on it).

These words "you have everybody fooled, they don't know the real Turkish like I do!' must have hurt you terribly - just reading it is hurting me... . so i can imagine how hurt you must have felt... . then, naturally, it is hard to accept praise, Turkish.

I think, from what i've been getting from here - we just have to learn to believe in ourselves, Turkish, and not wait for either criticism or praise from anyone - anyone at all... . See here, we have all accepted each other for what we are, and respect each other - i think we need to hang on to this... . we don't need to hurt by ourselves any more... .

We are human, so we will make mistakes - but we have to believe that that is not damning.  And just as surely we have to believe that we can do a lot----that we are, each one of us, blessed with talent, and, by and by, only concentrate on that. It's difficult, as i am finding out, but i think we owe it to ourselves. I also think, Turkish, that we have to, at some time or other, stop thinking of ourselves as extensions of anyone, and live up to our own unique best with what we have... . and i do believe that we are all blessed in some way or other. We have to force this to the fore, and push back all else.

Did i make any sense there, Turkish?

[Turkish]

Oh yes, Turkish, i do. Have become so used to being told i'm rubbish that i cannot take any compliments - feel very scared to - for two reasons, actually - one is, if my husband hears it, i've had it, because he will ennumerate all my faults, errors, mistakes and the mis-judgment of the other person and how she cannot discrimminate etc... and how she does not know any better and how everyone's standards are so low. (God help me if it is a man who has complimented me, cos then i'm totally finished - called promiscuous and what not)... . and the other is, after all this, i can't believe i am complimentable (if there is a word like that)... . I do have many achievements to my credit, but it is hard to believe in them - am always finding ways and means of passing on the credit to others and denigrating myself - cos then at least there will be peace at home. (DreamFlyer99 has showed the difference between keeping the peace and peacemaking - so that has clarified things a little more - just have to work on it).

These words "you have everybody fooled, they don't know the real Turkish like I do!' must have hurt you terribly - just reading it is hurting me... . so i can imagine how hurt you must have felt... . then, naturally, it is hard to accept praise, Turkish.

I think, from what i've been getting from here - we just have to learn to believe in ourselves, Turkish, and not wait for either criticism or praise from anyone - anyone at all... . See here, we have all accepted each other for what we are, and respect each other - i think we need to hang on to this... . we don't need to hurt by ourselves any more... .

We are human, so we will make mistakes - but we have to believe that that is not damning.  And just as surely we have to believe that we can do a lot----that we are, each one of us, blessed with talent, and, by and by, only concentrate on that. It's difficult, as i am finding out, but i think we owe it to ourselves. I also think, Turkish, that we have to, at some time or other, stop thinking of ourselves as extensions of anyone, and live up to our own unique best with what we have... . and i do believe that we are all blessed in some way or other. We have to force this to the fore, and push back all else.

Did i make any sense there, Turkish?

Yes, Lilibeth, it makes sense. I was accused by uBPDx of lacking character (!) by "failing"" her. I know what I am. I know who I am. I know my core values, and live by them. Yet I got lost in the FOG, and let that   get in my head. She respects me greatly as a father, but I am an utter failure as a partner in her eyesr. How to reconcile that? Sorry to inject issues from the leaving board... . I took value from trying, and that was wrong. I'm left adrift, with myself. I now value myself, and I hope my kids mirror that (not in a narc way).

[Lilibeth]

Turkish, i'd copied this down from an old post of Waverider's - Ask yourself "Am I proud of being me and what I do, or am I making excuses to avoid admitting that I am not proud to be me?"

Your answer should be you are proud of being you... . you just have to worry about whether what you are doing or how you are being is honorable... .

He also said these very powerful words - Do not shame yourself. I was so touched by this that i looked up the word 'shame'. This is what i found - Thanks to criticisms and praise, both being used in conflict, we somehow believe that we are defective or unacceptable, and this can lead us to being defensive, depressed or anxious. We have to find ways to be loving toward ourselves and accepting that we are human, that we have limitations, but we also have strengths (which have got kind of pushed under the ground). Our starting point has to be 'i am a person of worth' and treat ourselves with respect. We all make mistakes but where we go wrong is that we think of ourselves in terms of those mistakes (i know i do, Turkish, and am fighting that).

While i was writing this a post came in from you - here's to that -

I don't think you should let what she says about you not being a good partner get to you - as you've said, you know who you are. And obviously you have character or you would have left your kids... . Don't decide inside of yourself that you are a failure as a partner - you are a wonderfully kind person, or you wouldn't be a source of healing for so many here... . You are a good person - you cannot be good in one situation and not in another... . Absolutely - you must value yourself. It's hard not to have a loving partner on the journey of life - but you have your kids, Turkish and while you will need to equip them for life, the way you deal with your loss will also teach them to deal with how to handle life with its various complications, and importantly, you have YOU... . and you have your life... .

[Turkish]

Turkish, i'd copied this down from an old post of Waverider's - Ask yourself "Am I proud of being me and what I do, or am I making excuses to avoid admitting that I am not proud to be me?"

Your answer should be you are proud of being you... . you just have to worry about whether what you are doing or how you are being is honorable... .

He also said these very powerful words - Do not shame yourself. I was so touched by this that i looked up the word 'shame'. This is what i found - Thanks to criticisms and praise, both being used in conflict, we somehow believe that we are defective or unacceptable, and this can lead us to being defensive, depressed or anxious. We have to find ways to be loving toward ourselves and accepting that we are human, that we have limitations, but we also have strengths (which have got kind of pushed under the ground). Our starting point has to be 'i am a person of worth' and treat ourselves with respect. We all make mistakes but where we go wrong is that we think of ourselves in terms of those mistakes (i know i do, Turkish, and am fighting that).

While i was writing this a post came in from you - here's to that -

I don't think you should let what she says about you not being a good partner get to you - as you've said, you know who you are. And obviously you have character or you would have left your kids... . Don't decide inside of yourself that you are a failure as a partner - you are a wonderfully kind person, or you wouldn't be a source of healing for so many here... . You are a good person - you cannot be good in one situation and not in another... . Absolutely - you must value yourself. It's hard not to have a loving partner on the journey of life - but you have your kids, Turkish and while you will need to equip them for life, the way you deal with your loss will also teach them to deal with how to handle life with its various complications, and importantly, you have YOU... . and you have your life... .

Thank you, Lilibeth. Tears flow, from what you wrote.  I don't know why, but that's ok. Thank you so much for wise words. Prayers tonight, for DF99, for you, for all of us...

[Lilibeth]

Rewriting this, Turkish - 'Prayers tonight, for DF99, for you, for all of us... '

to

'Prayers tonight for DF99, for you, for me and for all of us... . '

If i am learning, Turkish, so can you - you have to put yourself in as well... .

Waverider and DreamFlyer99 always say that - we have to concentrate on ourselves... . and i do believe that the rest will follow... .

and, we're all here for each other

[Turkish]

Rewriting this, Turkish - 'Prayers tonight, for DF99, for you, for all of us... '

to

'Prayers tonight for DF99, for you, for me and for all of us... . '

If i am learning, Turkish, so can you - you have to put yourself in as well... .

Waverider and DreamFlyer99 always say that - we have to concentrate on ourselves... . and i do believe that the rest will follow... .

and, we're all here for each other

[DreamFlyer99]

Awww you guys! What a sweet and loving interchange that was!

I know it made me feel crazy to have spent my life with important people who told me I was something other than what I felt I was. All along I knew down deep that I was a kind and loving person, but my mother and my H vacillated between the good of me and the horrible and defective-ness of me. So confusing! But the fact that I felt so confused by all that was a good thing--I doubted not only what I believed myself to be but also doubted what they said I was. In this case doubt was a helpful feeling since it made me question, eventually to the point of realizing what was Truth. And I knew I wasn't making it up, if I looked around at what others thought of me, at the things I had accomplished and my motives in doing them, the Truth was apparent.

I think hitting that point in my understanding is what made me finally really doubt the interactions between my H and me. He would react out of his insecurity or whatever and sometimes I would even say, "Another person might have said this:... . " and in that way I was telling myself (and him) what a 'normal' response would be, one that wasn't loaded with all those deeply held yet wrong self-beliefs. And I just kept seeing and seeing how difficult this r/s was, in that I could never expect a less loaded response from him.

Sadly, all that realization seemed to pull me away from my total dependence on and loving respect for him. And I say "sadly" because I wish things hadn't gone this way, I wish the r/s wasn't one where I had to realize that it would always be a struggle where I would be the loser because I believed in the rules of loving-kindness with others.

I was proud when my T said my decision to leave that night was not one where I was reacting out of my childhood hurts. It was painful to realize how much of my adulthood was reinforced and reacted to through my PTSD and my dissociating, but if it took me till 60 to learn to respond out of the Adult, so be it. At least I have learned.

It isn't a failing of ours to not be a "good partner" to someone with BPD, I think it's a sign that we haven't totally bought into the dysfunction of it all. And when our partner is someone who can never even be happy with themselves, how can WE make them happy? We can't.

[Lilibeth]

DreamFlyer99, most often when i read your post, i wonder if you aren't writing about my life... . your life and mine run so close... . so, so close... . even up to the way your mother vacillated about you. It was only when she was lying on her deathbed and i was looking after her that she told me she had treated me badly and asked for forgiveness... . but my whole life is gone, almost... . I totally doubted myself and was not ready to believe it when a dear friend who met me after 40 years told me how she remembered me... . She led me to another couple of college mates who also told me their memories of me. I'm still having trouble with this. I wrote down what she said, and have been forcing my mind to go back to see how i was, and thus find out who i really am under all this pain and heartache... . how far away have i come?

After she went away in 2011, the way my husband treated me finally brought me to my knees. This was the total accumulation of 26 years... . I was finished - emotionally, mentally, psychologically and physically, till i came to this Family. Now, pulling out all my feelings and emotions, and examining every small thing in me, it has come as a huge, huge blow and shock that he would never be the partner i longed for, and thought he would become (as he had promised time and time again). I realized that any looking after of myself, dealing with my hurts and sadnesses, i would have to do by myself... . any happiness, i would have to enjoy by myself... . plus handle him and look after him also. And, this is what, as it has for you, DreamFlyer99, pulled me 'away from my total dependence on and loving respect for him.' This really has been the most difficult thing to accept, that life is going to be a lonely struggle. This, i think would also help us to realize our responsibilities to ourselves... . the need to give ourselves treats and feel-good chances.

No DreamFlyer99, please, please do not think that you will be the loser... . please... . you are not a loser - How can you be when you have so much love in you to share with us (and i am truly grateful for that... . and feel blessed)... . so much wisdom that you have gained so painfully, you share so willingly... . We are all witnesses to a loving, kind YOU.

I too feel this way - 'if it took me till 60 to learn to respond out of the Adult, so be it. At least I have learned.'

These words are powerful, and sum up where we are at, i feel, DreamFlyer99: 'It isn't a failing of ours to not be a "good partner" to someone with BPD, I think it's a sign that we haven't totally bought into the dysfunction of it all. And when our partner is someone who can never even be happy with themselves, how can WE make them happy? We can't.' Turkish, i think you too could gain from this... . you are a good partner... . just that it wasn't appreciated by one person... . but that doesn't change YOU. DreamFlyer99 has given us some more signposts for our journey... . thanks DreamFLyer99.

[Turkish]

I too feel this way - 'if it took me till 60 to learn to respond out of the Adult, so be it. At least I have learned.'

These words are powerful, and sum up where we are at, i feel, DreamFlyer99: 'It isn't a failing of ours to not be a "good partner" to someone with BPD, I think it's a sign that we haven't totally bought into the dysfunction of it all. And when our partner is someone who can never even be happy with themselves, how can WE make them happy? We can't.' Turkish, i think you too could gain from this... . you are a good partner... . just that it wasn't appreciated by one person... . but that doesn't change YOU. DreamFlyer99 has given us some more signposts for our journey... . thanks DreamFLyer99.

DF99's words are wise, and you are right. I am not there on internalizing it yet. Intellectually, I know you both are right. Mine even wrote in her journal "Turkish is everything a woman could want in a man, but I just can't love him." I stopped buying into the dysfunction, and did abandon her in a way while still living together, so she abandoned me in reality and threw her paramour in my face for almost five grueling months until she was gone. I know on some level it wasn't personal. Perhaps it isn't personal for any of us. If not us, then someone else would be there on the other side of the dysfunction. I just can't wrap my head around the fact that I am worthy of love. The last gf years before my uBPDx mother of our children said, "you're the best bf ever!" then dumped me. No explanation. She later shacked up with a much older married cop and had an illegitimate child which she has raised by herself (I still keep in contact by proxy, since my godson's parents are friends of hers). Even way back in high school, my gf liked me a whole lot, then dumped me out of thin air. Then tried to recycle me, but I didn't bite. Perhaps it's my choice in women? Waifs of different flavors... . God help me. I'm middle aged and haven't much of a clue at this point. Thankfully, I have two little rug monsters to keep me busy and hopefully out of trouble. (Sorry for the thread hijack, DF99, glad you are in a good place!)

[Lilibeth]

Obviously you are still hurting, Turkish. And given her actions and what she has said, it is not surprising. Reading it is hurting me, so imagine you... . Give yourself time to get over it - and while giving yourself time, be compasionate towards yourself and kind to yourself. What she said is in her reality - not yours. You know who you are - you know your reality. You know, through your children, your true friends and all of us here that you are worthy of love. But you need to tell yourself that loud and clear and long enough till it sticks in your mind. I never thought i was worth even a word or a look, and i can never ever forget how DreamFlyer99 said 'sweet Lilibeth' to me in one of her first posts... . and i thought, if this person who has not seen me, does not know me, can through my words reach out straight to my core and call me that, there must be something in me. You had reached out too, Turkish... . and so this is what you start building on. You know, Turkish, what i learned from here is that we also have to peel away all the layers that, down the years, and through our experiences have laid layer upon layer on our hearts, our thinking, and our feelings. We need to do that... . We need to sift out our own thinking, to set ourselves right as well, Turkish... . apart, quite apart from what our BPDs tell us about ourselves or how they behave towards us. It's not too late to change the way we think... . but we need to think of ourselves first, and for that we need to be kind. As Waverider wisely said in our topic regarding self-confidence - just take one tiny step and work on that and consolidate that. What you have left behind, leave it behind. Lock the door and throw away the key. That is not your reference, unless it is to see how far ahead you have come... . You have a new lease on life every day... .

[Lilibeth]

Sharing something i got from another post - What, exactly, do you "accept" when you work on "acceptance?"  Randi Kreger posted what Linehan wrote about acceptance: 'You can either be miserable or you can figure out a way to accept the reality of your own life. Often when you've accepted you have this sense of letting go of the struggle.  It's just like you've been struggling and now you're not.  Sometimes, if you have accepted, you just have this sense of being centered, like you feel centered inside yourself somehow.

You may have a lot of sadness. Acceptance often goes with a lot of sadness actually, but even though you've got sadness, there's a feeling like a burden's lifted. Usually if you've accepted, you feel, well, ready to move on with your life. Sort of feel free, ready to move. So that's what it feels like.  

Pain is pain. Suffering, agony, are pain plus non-acceptance. So if you take pain, add non-acceptance you end up with suffering. Radical acceptance transforms suffering into ordinary pain.

To which Waverider has given a brilliantly clear explanation: I think before you can apply acceptance to anyone else, or a situation, you have to accept yourself and your own natural feelings towards a situation.  If you straight off try using logic to deny your own feelings towards a situation you are forcing acceptance, it is not coming naturally. Acceptance in those situations can prove to be no more than a facade of which you would feel guilty to acknowledge because you are trying to force the principle of being a better person.

When things are bad, you have to first accept your own feeling towards that, pain/ disappointment/envy/ anger or whatever is applicable. Accept that these feelings are normal, dont berate yourself for feeling them. Acknowledge why you are being triggered this way, see it for what it is. Then let it go as unavoidable. From there you can better move on to accept the situation as it truly is.

Full acceptance from the soul is difficult and takes a high degree of self confidence. It is too easy to think you are accepting, when really all you are doing is biting your tongue, racking up resentment for later.

Acceptance is a decision of the Wise mind,. The logical mind can provide the justification for it, but the emotional mind still needs to be heard before being placated.

So you see, Turkish, in fact, we are all trying to deal with this. We are trying to finally accept that we have to become independent... . but for that we have to first fully accept the situation we find ourselves in... . and for that we need to be kind to ourselves... .

[DreamFlyer99]

No worries about "hijacking" Turkish, I feel like this is "our" conversation, not all about me.

You're right, Lilibeth, about the process needing to be done more intuitively for us to truly learn and grow.

It's kinda like we're all growing up together!

Turkish, just think, you have 2 decades before you're my age and Lilibeth's--that's enough time to see your children grow, maybe even marry or have babies, right? That's a loong time! Then you have even more time after that, as do I, at least another 2 decades. All that to say, you are young and have much more life ahead of you... . it's a tough time right now, but we all help each other get through and make choices toward a better future, right?

[Turkish]

No worries about "hijacking" Turkish, I feel like this is "our" conversation, not all about me.

You're right, Lilibeth, about the process needing to be done more intuitively for us to truly learn and grow.

It's kinda like we're all growing up together!

Turkish, just think, you have 2 decades before you're my age and Lilibeth's--that's enough time to see your children grow, maybe even marry or have babies, right? That's a loong time! Then you have even more time after that, as do I, at least another 2 decades. All that to say, you are young and have much more life ahead of you... . it's a tough time right now, but we all help each other get through and make choices toward a better future, right?

Way to put it into perspective! Had the kids all weekend. Based on how D22mos was clinging to me the whole time, that girl's going into a convent! S4 can provide the grandkids. Heh. Ah, I guess feelings like this are natural... .

[Lilibeth]

So you see, Turkish, lots of fun time left for you. Your kids love you and you had a great time with them - that should really give  you a huugggggeeeee boost up. Plus, as DreamFlyer99 echoed for me too, you have 'a loong time!' and 'you are young and have much more life ahead of you.' Even as you acknowledge that you are in a rough time zone now, accept too that you have a lot going for you, you're a caring person, you're a great Dad, and go on ahead. Do one small thing just for yourself as a token of your having had a great weekend! And, you are not alone on your journey... .

DreamFlyer99 i do hope you are on the way to feeling better and stronger.

Sending loads of positive energies to you, DreamFlyer99 and Turkish.

[DreamFlyer99]

Thank you sweet Lilibeth (you see I can tell from the way you are with others, very loving and kind!)

I am in an okay place at the moment, not to say I don't have some emotional uprisings from time to time. My T has been great to see me weekly and helps me put things into perspective, like what I should be doing for myself at the moment. She told me I should be "convalescing" like I just had surgery or something major, because these are hard times with big decisions ahead. It's hard for me to think in those terms!

I did have a texting chat with my H, and it sounds like he's taking some very positive steps toward his own healing. His counselor is pretty hardcore with him and told him that my leaving may have been the most loving thing I've done for either of us. He knows he wouldn't have sought help without my having left, so even though it's been rough he is seeing the good in the situation. It's still pretty much about him right now, but I think it needs to be. There was a little more vulnerability than I've seen in him in a long while, and he was able to hear a few of my thoughts on what has gone on, but like I said, he's so amazed by the things he's realizing about his self hate and how it has played out into mean behavior toward me that it's pretty much a story of him.

Oddly that made me feel better. I had a hard time after talking to my T because it made me think about missing the doggies and not being in my comfortable bed, stuff like that, plus not knowing what's in the future. I'm not the hugest fan of change, yunno?

Turkish, I'm glad you had a good time with your kiddos, and don't think you're joking about that convent! Staying at my oldest daughter's is a reminder of why 60 year olds shouldn't have teenaged girls--our hearts can't take it!

[Turkish]

Thank you sweet Lilibeth (you see I can tell from the way you are with others, very loving and kind!)

I am in an okay place at the moment, not to say I don't have some emotional uprisings from time to time. My T has been great to see me weekly and helps me put things into perspective, like what I should be doing for myself at the moment. She told me I should be "convalescing" like I just had surgery or something major, because these are hard times with big decisions ahead. It's hard for me to think in those terms!

I did have a texting chat with my H, and it sounds like he's taking some very positive steps toward his own healing. His counselor is pretty hardcore with him and told him that my leaving may have been the most loving thing I've done for either of us. He knows he wouldn't have sought help without my having left, so even though it's been rough he is seeing the good in the situation. It's still pretty much about him right now, but I think it needs to be. There was a little more vulnerability than I've seen in him in a long while, and he was able to hear a few of my thoughts on what has gone on, but like I said, he's so amazed by the things he's realizing about his self hate and how it has played out into mean behavior toward me that it's pretty much a story of him.

Oddly that made me feel better. I had a hard time after talking to my T because it made me think about missing the doggies and not being in my comfortable bed, stuff like that, plus not knowing what's in the future. I'm not the hugest fan of change, yunno?

Turkish, I'm glad you had a good time with your kiddos, and don't think you're joking about that convent! Staying at my oldest daughter's is a reminder of why 60 year olds shouldn't have teenaged girls--our hearts can't take it!

Heh. I'll be in my 50s when she's a teenager. That will be hard enough on the ole ticker... and all the girls after S4, I already see it at this age. I'm glad things are calming down and progressing positively for you and your H. Patience may be the key. Missing your puppies must be hard. Hopefully you can see them soon too. You are in our prayers!

[DreamFlyer99]

Thank you my friend. 

[Lilibeth]

You really need to rest and recuperate, DreamFlyer99 - it is like convalescing, for your heart has really gone through a terrible shredding. At this time, i'm sure everything is still seeming heavy... . you need to rest, DreamFlyer99 and just soak in all the TLC being showered on you.

I'm so, so happy that your husband is seeing a therapist who is hardcore. He will now be forced to review everything about himself. It will always be about him, DreamFlyer99, but if he can at least hear what you have to say, at least some times, it may be a little easier for you.

It's usually like this, isn't it - there has to be an earthquake and thunder and lightning and huge suffering and from that comes a tiny flower of hope... . How much you suffered, but if there is the glimmer of hope, that is something... .

Once again your saying that you are 'not the hugest fan of change' is an echo of my feelings. I take a long, long time to adjust to change, another handle for my husband to get at me with... .

You're definitely sounding more at peace, DreamFlyer99, and though it's a long haul ahead, please use this time to just pamper yourself and let yourself be pampered... .

I guess when you feel stronger, you may need to do some recalibration with the tilt towards YOU so that you will be stronger next time around. I don't think we will ever be free of that threat over our heads about when they will just take off... . but we can try to be prepared... .

I don't know if this happens to you, DreamFlyer99 - when my husband realizes that he has been nasty, after a bit he becomes very attentive and tries to make up in all sorts of ways by lending a helping hand... . that used to make me melt, and i would try to see things from his point of view and tell myself i could be more tolerant or be a better person etc... . now i just step away, and raise my boundary wall a little higher, for i don't think i can really take much more heart-bashing... . i'm becoming more of my own person - that is entirely due to this Family and especially the caring hand that you, Waverider, Turkish, an0ught and others have extended. Of course, i don't know how it is going to be the next time around, whether i will be able to foil the onslaught, but for now, am more sure of myself.

Yes, missing your puppies must be very difficult - how loving and loyal and totally non-judgmental dogs are.

Turkish, you'll be a great Dad for your teenagers... . you are a great Dad even now! Put the hurts and sorrows out of your mind. The happiness with your children would have shown you that there really is no place for them right now.

You are just a prayer away DreamFlyer99... .

[DreamFlyer99]

Thank you, Lilibeth

My H would sometimes do the same, but when I started realizing that the nice times were really just the eye of the storm and that the storm would indeed hit again then I was less taken in by his attention. And you're right, it's that 'becoming more of your own person' that comes into play. You start seeing yourself as an individual rather than just a reflective surface for the spouse. And it's all practice, really, like everything else, learning to respond with thought rather than just reacting. And I know you've seen with me that there are generally plenty of opportunities to make the lousy choices too!

I guess I am in "wait and see" mode right now--I will have to see if he can indeed make changes enough to keep me from ever living that way again. And I don't know if he will or how long it will take, so I guess I'm just waiting. For now. 

[Lilibeth]

Waiting along with you, DreamFlyer 99... .

[Turkish]

Waiting along with you, DreamFlyer 99... .

I admire the heck out of you ladies. Stay strong :^) 

[Lilibeth]

Awwww Turkish. Thanks. That helps.

[Landslide2014]

I don't know how I stumbled over to L5 when I thought I already made up my mind. Anyhow I found myself drawn your conversation. There are so many healing points. Self-care being on the top of the list and being easy on yourself about human imperfections. I love the recovery I am reading. It's  obvious that you have all worked hard on yourselves.  I believe I have come a long way but still have a long way to go. I am struggling because I have finally gotten good at setting my boundaries and validating myself although I question it often. I know in my heart I must do this to heal. Sometimes I would like to just revisit my ignorance.To go back to that place where nothing has yet been revealed and I am smoothing it over to minimize the "episodes".  Though I know that the knot inside my stomach was only getting tighter, even though to the outside world all looked perfect. The tool of Detachment  has done just that... . Created detachment. That has been diificult for me since connectivity is where I thrive.  Could I live in a marriage that I know will never contain that truth?  Just when I "know" there is only one sane answer, I begin to wonder if is possible to be happy and healthy and honest if I stay. Is that crazy thinking, still?  I too have great admiration for those who are staying... . In sickness and in health?  Then I think, one life. I guess I need to come back to the moment and take it one day at a time and remind myself of the blessing. Even though it is HARD, I do feel grateful for the understanding and acceptancce I have gained... . And for what I have learned. Thank you "this thread" and the whole site for helping me not only to survive this, but to find glimpses of quality life in between.

[Lilibeth]

Landslide2014, i'm so glad you stumbled onto this page - yes, healing is what we are trying to do - all of us here... . we are in different situations, but the hurts we bear and feel are the same... . I'm realizing that healing myself is not so easy. Too many thoughts of the past intrude take away from the moments we set aside for our healing. Yet, i've learnt from here, how important it is to do this for ourselves, how necessary. I never thought i was important enough, or that it really mattered to anyone... . i gained from DreamFlyer99, Turkish, Waverider and others - that i do matter and, most of all, i have to matter to myself. The beauty of being here is that we help each other matter... .

DreamFlyer99 talked about how we can make mistakes, but then we are only human, BUT, we owe it to ourselves not to beat ourselves up - we're already getting enough of that. Landslide2014, we are all still working on ourselves. Living with a BPD is not a time-bound thing. It just goes on, and all the time, and every day in one form or another... . So then, what is our Polestar? - just us... .

Landslide2014, i'm sure the wiser people in this Family will be able to help you better here, but i can tell you that for myself, though i separated myself mentally from my husband, thinking that was detachment, i was still hurting every time he subjected me to a verbal shredding, or some kind of assault on my emotions.  I've learnt since that only if i heal myself, can i really be detached, as in, not allow myself to get hurt and demolished. The tools we learn from here are for ourselves - to protect ourselves, and function in a dysfunctional environment.

Your reality is different from his. I can really feel your confusion and pain, Landslide2014... . it's an awful state to be in. Just remember, for now, you are not alone, you are with all of us here. It's not about staying or leaving... . i think it is about ourselves... . and the truth that we are going to live with... . but, no matter what happens, you come first for you, and you need to be whole and healed... . and then think of the next step.

I believe we cannot have too many unknowns to deal with - we can deal with our unknowns only if we have one known thing to go by. And that is us, ourselves.