BPDFamily.com

So... this morning I got the texts from my wife that my stuff would be packed to I could move to my parents for a 1 month "trial separation".

I didn't respond to those.

Some other text bombs tossed in about Random things.

4-5 hours later I stopped by the house.  She is fine.  I took her to lunch and it was the good old relationship that I remember.

Things have been fine for rest of the day.

I'm a couple months into knowing about BPD... . it just seems weird to ignore and let stuff go like that.

Thoughts?

My BPDgf doesn't necessarily act as if nothing happened, unfortunately for me she has the memory of an elephant.

However, I have mentioned things she has said to while dysregulated and she truly does not recall the things she says while raging. She'll sincerely apologize after the fact, though resort to the same method next time she is dysregulated.

She has said to me and I quote "no wonder your ex wife left you for a dying cancer patient, I would too!". My previous relationship is a sour spot for me, so when I confronted her and told her how that comment hurt me, she did not recall saying it in the slightest.

Yes.

I think one thing you can predict that your BPD will just make things up to hurt you. Just try and shrug it off... .

What helps is when you're alone and think about how you can get your hit together, the hit you already have together, whether with or without her... . to get mental strength... .

It's not easy at all... .

Things to watch IMHO are... . pick your timing, be sensitive to triggers, and prepare the conversation. I've found when my gf says a hurtful/irritating thing and I don't want it to happen again, I will prepare her for a 'tough conversation' and bring it up in a non-BPD time of hers. Over time it goes away. It's important to bring it up so you take away her emotional knives. If you're afraid of the fight... . do more prep or start with a SET technique or something. Secondly, if your BPD fights are regularly as mine... . what have you got to be afraid of... . bugger it... . what's one more fight, but this time you start it with a real objective... . so a fight is inevitable... . but you direct and control it... . and you move a step closer to her stopping to use that knife... .

One last thing... . my BPDgf will occasionally pick up that I am actually sensitive to that thing that I don't want her to say. What follows is... . what if she uses it against me now that she knows it's a sensitive thing? Don't worry... . just try your best and know she is being a b*tch... . and keep trying... . don't let it get to you... . gain comfort knowing you did your best regarding that 'knife'... . recall she's just trying to hurt you as a defence mechanism and when she uses it against you, I find that if she tries to hurt me on purpose it's the opposite effect... . because she hasn't got anything better and I have my values to fall back on... . she doesn't define you... . your values do... .

Sorry for not censoring... .

formfiler... . and to answer 2nd part of your question... . yes I think it's very very weird... . haven't found anything to figure that out in my head yet... . the best i've got right now is just "yeah that's the BPD"... . but it seems to 'unclosed' and 'unfinished' and leaves me unsettled too every time... .

Oh and from my personal experience... . she did stop doing things with other men that I found extremely irritating... .   so if you address it... . it can really bear fruit... . she has also stopped doing very irritating things in our relationship as well... . so I think it can work with both things they say, and things they do... .

In my experience, and I'm sure the experience of many members here, pwBPDs say stuff precisely to hurt us.  They know exactly where our soft spots are, and they will do whatever they can to hurt us.  But it's not directed at us really.  Have you read the book "Anything to Stop the Pain"?  They are doing that because they are hurt.  This is no excuse to hurt us, but that's the way it is.

Anyway... . for me, it doesn't help bringing up what my pwBPD says during dysregulation, and in fact, my counselor says it's not good to bring up the exact wordings, because those are usually strong words.  And strong words trigger strong emotions in both parties.  When you repeat the words, you will hurt all over again, and it will also trigger their strong emotions.  And also, if you tell them "you saying _____ hurt me", they WILL say it all the more when they are dysregulated.  In the past, when my pwBPD was dysregulating and splitting, he usually likens me to my dad, who has left my family when we were in need, and also my ex, who cheated on me.  He would say things like “yeah you deserve to be cheated on”, or “you’re just like your dad, evil and heartless”.  For me, he stopped using those words when I stopped reacting to them.  The more I appeared hurt by them, the more he knows it works.

It's when I read posts like these that I come to think that

a/ living with a BPD person is nothing for a normal person with feelings

and

b/ that the best person way to handla a person with BPD is locking them in the cellar when they bother you

My wife is human being and so am I. Even though she has a kind of mental illness I still feel that I have to hold her accountable for things she has said and treat her like a grown up person. You really can't be a padded cell for the giant child to live in. That's not good for you and not for the BPD person.

Does this work for your relationship to let him hurl abuse at you until he tires and stops? It sure wouldn't work to let my wife to that in front of our daughter, let me tell you that. And you are the only person in the world behaving like that towards your BPD partner, so you end up being the BPD persons only friend. For as long as you can put up with that... .

My wife meets my attempts to bring up past abuse with "what good does talking about the past do?". So I'm pretty much left to going over the situations in my own head, over and over. In the past she actually could apologize for wronging me, and that made it easier for me to get over some things. But she does not do that anymore. I think she believes that it "serves me right". Part of why I'm reluctant to start up with couples therapy. I think she really needs to work on herself first (but she won't).

I think I'm not strong enough or appear intimidating enough to make her think twice about yelling at me. She lives by a set of standards from her birth family where they often shouted at eachother. Her brother can get extremely angry. When I get angry it's like my wife hardly notices it (or at least acts like she doesn't). This makes for a rather imbalanced relationship.

"padded cell for the giant child to live in. " sometimes that's exactly how I feel. I actually can visualise a tiny version of my gf bouncing around in my rib-cage as I sit here at my computer... . and with each hit against the side I can actually almost feel it... . I'm not usually like this but I detonated late last night when I reacted to something... . its so hard separating feelings and not feeling hurt / accepting the pain... . it's my first go at using the things I read about when I felt so extreme... . still hurting haha... .

hergestridge, it sounds like you have a solution to not being the containment cell... . what is your way of handling things and making her accountable... . ?

I feel you mate... . Feels so g*dd*mned lonely when I'm trying to sort out a problem, and that naturally involves retrospect... . and retrospect seems to be something BPDs (my gf definitely included, sometimes) are utter rubbish at... . and combine that with isolation and man how lonely being in an "intense" relationship can be... .

What's your outlet? If I didn't have my P in the end I'd really be stuck... . never thought I would be dependent on a P... . ever... . but there's definitely reliance now because I haven't found a way to recover my support system without 'hurting' her... .

I'm convinced they know what they've said and done. I also think they are ashamed of it and feel guilty about it. Then they choose to bury the reality, because facing it is just too scary for them. I genuinely have compassion for my separated uBPDw. But not sure if I can live with this disease again.

Bringing up specific things said doesn't work for me; when I've done that, he will only act as though he was correct to begin with, and a new cycle of dysregulation may start.  I once started a post here asking if other BPD's remember their dysregulation periods in general.  My uBPDh doesn't seem to.  So I think it's important to bring up that their behavior was bad at such-and-such a time, so that they can be aware when the same circumstances roll around again that might trigger similar behaviors.  For example, we had a vacation that was pretty much ruined for me due to three episodes of dysregulation and foul temper; he didn't remember these, and thought it had been a wonderful vacation.  Because we are planning on taking a similar trip again, I have reminded him that his behavior toward me was awful and I only want to go again if there is not a repeat of that behavior.  He has been assuring me that he will be less stressed next time due to some differences in planning, and that he will be better.  So at least I am waving a flag at him that says 'be aware', and also 'beware' of treating me that way again.  I am on the 'staying' board because I love him, but I do not have unlimited patience either.

"Holding accountable" is something that adults should do, and I agree, but going over the past may not work for pwBPDs.  Granted, I'm just talking about myself, and my pwBPD.  All of them are different.  Some will keep on saying sorry; mine never does.

The way to change things and to show them you don't allow abuse is by setting boundaries, NOT by talking to them AFTER they abuse you.  Because that would mean they succeeded anyway.  Do you think they know those things shouldn't be done?  I'm sure they do.  But, as they are trying to stop THEIR pain, they won't care about that- they chose to not control themselves.

Talking to them will likely be a waste of time... . in their better moments (the non-dysregulated moments) they may feel bad about what they do, some even go into a depressive state because they feel so shameful... . but all that goes out the door when they're dysregulated.  So, I don't really agree it's a matter of locking them up when they're dysregulated.  It's us walking away becuase we won't let them abuse us.  We let them know that what they're doing/ saying won't be responded to, and if they want to express themselves they have to find another way.  And for me, I don't come back and "teach" them because it's a waste of time to teach them something they already know but choose not to do.

formflier, this is a good question.

My suggestion is once the dysregulated episode is done, don't bring up hurtful or drastic things your partner said while dysregulated.

Nothing good will come of it.

Now, sometimes my partner would mention something that really bothered her during an episode (usually in an overly dramatic and hurtful way), and this issue is one I wasn't hearing at other times, as she was stuffing it. While I would still avoid the angry words, I might try to discuss the issue at a better time if it seemed important and productive. This is a much rarer circumstance.


Hope26, this sounds reasonable on your part. What would sound better would be to make contingency plans for your vacation--can you build in options to get away from him if he becomes abusive or dysregulated?

That is much more reliable than a promise to be better on his part, or a reminder on your part that he should be better.

I completely agree with Grey Kitty's suggestion.  The Plan B should be something we can do on our own/ is not dependent on the pwBPD.  There is no way we can make them promise they won't dysregulate, and even if they did, they could easily do whatever during the vacation.  What we learn is that our emotions are not totally dependent on them- that when they have their episodes, we don't get totally dragged into the dark hole.  I agree that they will choose to selectively remember nice times- I've had those experiences too, and I don't argue with that revisionist history... .

Outlet is to write on here and (limited) talking to parents about it. The latter has become difficult as my mother starts almost every conversation with "what's it like now", and I honestly don't know how to answer that. I think she wants me to just say "my marriage is great now" so the "problem" is over.

I've been letting it get to me more lately, eventhough (ironically enough) my wife has been in her best mood in the last 8 years or so. I could definitely benefit from seeing a therapist, and intend to get one for myself.

I have learned to not bring up things during dysregulation.  I have one of those BPDw that never apologize on their own and have to be dragged in kicking and screaming into saying they are sorry, where it is not worth the effort.  I remember we had a hole in our bedroom door, caused by a kick during one of her rages.  I left that hole untouched for many years.  Never was it commented upon or discussed.  That was a reminder for me that bringing up past dysregulations was fruitless.  As we practice detachment and acceptance, those desires to address the dysregulation seem to decrease.  It is really hard.

Actually, I've found that bringing up what my wife BPD told me while dysregulating normally leaves me more frustrated and dissapointed. Normally she reacts in two possible ways:

- Admiting what se did could be, under normal circunstances, sound bad, but the problem is that "after what you said/done to me, who wouldn't react like me!" (She justifies what she did/said, because I've hurted her so much! Even when she startde the whole argument!)

- She makes me feel like if I'm talking to a door, and also makes sure she interrups me constantly with things like:

    1) "do not speak so loud" (regardless of what's the actual loundness I'm talking)

    2) She makes me a pint about something completely different like "do not forgut to buy some more milk later when you go out"

    3) The list goes on... .

As a result, It takes me a lot of resistance and patience to be able to tell her my toughts and not loosing the logic of my speach (normally I end up forgeting what I was going to say) and it leaves me drained out, feeling furious and ignored for being interrupted by foolish things, and with the sensation that she did not even listened or understood what I was saying.

There are sometimes thouch were she says things like "I'm so sorry for being such a bhit sometimes", "It must be hard for you to be with me sometimes because I can be mean to you", "You do not deserve the way I treat you sometimes"... . Nonetheless it's allways general and difuse! She never... . ever says I'm sorry for telling you this and this. It is like she avoids to say anything specific because this way she protrects herself from me to latter eventually throw it up to her... .

What is odd enough is that normally she would say this things on the early morning when she wakes up. Some day I will find out why she seems to be more "normal" when she wakes up, but maybe 30 minutes latter she will be back to "herself"... .

Wish you all the best.

Francis

I usually find that raising any kind of issue, including hurtful words, is more trouble than it's worth. Sometimes, it is flatly denied and he has no recollection of truly awful things. On other occasions, his last breath is as far back as he is prepared to go.

If there was an apology and a determined effort not to do it again, whilst taking responsibility for any abuse, I could work with that. The lack of remorse, blame or full on denial is as damaging as the words themselves.

Sometimes, we mess up. It's part of the condition called human. Nobody is perfect, but if you're big enough to make mistakes, you've got to be big enough to put them right too.

Uff! I think you defined what I feel when my BPD just says "yeah, I did that (a bad thing I'm pointing out to her), but just because you... . (bla bla bla). Her aparent lack of guilt or remorse hurts me even more, as also leaves me with the sad but realistic feeling that this person will never really do any possible effort to change, because the first step towards a change is to recognise one is doing something wrong in the first place!

Also her lack of interest in what I'm saying to her, when I'm trying to pint to her how what she did or said before made me feel (she does this by interrupting me constantly and also looking dead bored while listening to me... . ) makes me feel exactly as you say

Hi folks, I want to thank Grey Kitty and Chosen for your helpful suggestions regarding my next vacation.  You're right, it is a good idea to have a contingency plan that involves getting away from him if he does dysregulate.  That may be easier to do next time without drawing attention, as we won't be traveling with a group.  I think they were part of the reason for the stress too, because down deep he is not sociable at all.  Panchito, I could so relate to what you said about getting general apologies for being 'mean sometimes', etc., without anything specific being mentioned or apologized for.  It seems like most of us agree on our general reaction to this post, in that it's better not to bring up specific things said during periods of dysregulation.  Yet this is so hard, because we all want them to indicate regret for hurting us with some of the things they say during these episodes.

IMHO... . A memory like an elephant with very selective memory.  Their memory is accurate to the point when it serves them... . IME.

Panchito 

If I point out that my partner has been rude and hurt me, he very quickly tells me that he is not responsible for my feelings and it's up to me to choose how I feel. I need to grow up.

This is correct up to a point, but becomes a bit difficult to process when he is upset by someone else's actions or words. Then, the person who has hurt him isn't emotionally mature enough to see how their behaviour affects other people and he is outraged 

I'm confused.

Hey thicker skin,

This made my brain hurt at first, I was thinking so hard about it

I think it boils down to personal feelings more than anything.  Your partner is choosing to feel outraged by another person's behavior.  

It's what we do with those feelings that matters and whether or not we take on somebody else's as our own.

Hope that made some sense, not really sure

I hear you Phoebe... . |iiii

The rule goes like this for me :-

If I genuinely don't care about a person ( say, I don't know them, just a drunk bum on the street ) their words could float off of me.

If I have an acquaintance, like someone at work, or on the school run, they can think and feel without affecting me too.

But if someone very close to me, like my partner, is using derogatory language or challenging my integrity, I find it difficult not to be hurt. My boundaries come into play at that point, if it starts to become abusive.

Our boundaries are to protect us. They are called for when we are hurt. Hurt is a feeling.

Perhaps it's a mix of who it's from and what's been said or done that's the difference? The level of reaction to an action?

Yea, that and our own personal investment -vs- expectations, maybe?

If I'm expecting my partner (we call them 'partners' for a reason) to be kind to me and he is not, it hurts. The level of hurt I allow myself to feel would depend on my personal investment which is subjective and well, personal.

If I change my own expectation, knowing what I know about BPD and how it manifests in his behaviors, I can avoid a lot of unnecessary hurt feelings.

I still have a personal investment in myself and my own integrity (values and boundaries), as well as in him and the relationship.  Respect is still intact.

When respect and integrity are being compromised, my boundaries (which are always there) will be felt; as if I'm neglecting myself/abandoning myself while bouncing up against them, pushing through for somebody else's purpose.

Enmeshment.

Our boundaries define where we stand and still remain intact as unique people with real needs, wants and desires.

Blah blah blah

Time to go to the nursery for flowers, yay! |iiii

Thank you, thicker skin, for the deeper thoughts

It is one of the hardest things about living with a BPD because stating how we feel, hoping for acknowledgement from them that they hurt you - is essential in a healthy relationship.  I have learned that asking him not to do or say something creates a negative response which doesn't really change it from happening the next time.  I may never have a healthy relationship with him but I now speak up and say how it makes me feel.  In particular, I tell him that because I don't like what he says or does that it "makes me want to distance myself from him."  It may not make a difference in the end, but I feel better about myself.  This is what I will start teaching my children to do.  Because of the kids, I have to stay in this relationship for now.

  no worries Phoebe 

I'm booking festival tickets, painting rainbows on my face and plaiting flowers in my hair  :)

Thanks for all the comments and participation in this thread.  I supposed I'm just going to have to accept that what my wife will say will be said and I'll never bring it up again.

We have began another round of marriage counseling with a different counselor.  We were given a sheet to record things that we did like that the other person did and also a place to record what we didn't like.

I already have some whoppers... . it will be interesting to see how she reacts. 

This is the first round of marriage counseling since I know about BPD.  So... in her mine (I'm guessing) we haven't been arguing... . since I don't take the bait... and just let stuff go.

As me and my wife have a child together and I fear that we might come in a situation where we have to discuss custody - in court or with professionals if necessary, I have to take notes of my wife's dysregulative behaviour and bring up my wive's behaviour to make her stop and intervene at times.

Of course she wants (and expects) the outrageous and unacceptable things she says and does to me and our daughter to be forgotten about the next day. But the whole world does not revolve around my BPDw and her needs.

Her promises not to "do it" again are just so hollow, especially when she's forgoten all about the dysregulation. And I can't help but realize that part of the reason why she's forgotten all about it is that we never mention the dysregulation again after it happened (or at least that's how it used to be).

And no, I don't have a good method or a better suggestion. But we have a daughter, and there is not way you explain to her why her mother blows up for no reason and says the most hurtful things and that you mustn't mention anything about it to her afterwards. The kid has every reason to bash her mother about it. Everything else would be so ___ed up.

This is where I think we're losing perspective sometimes. It's not all about the pwBPD, is it?

No it's not all about them... .

However... . if we want to stay together... . my (our) choices seem to be fairly limited until the point in time where there is an honest effort at getting better (treatment).

I find myself honestly wondering if splitting would be better... . because at least then on my time I could provide a reasonable (normal) existence for my kids.

However (that word gets used alot when considered BPD nuances)... . when I look at guys that are divorced from a lady with BPD... . the divorce really doesn't fix anything... . there is still a sucky relationship that you have to deal with.

Even worse is that there are times now where legally you don't have control over your kids. 

Part of the reason I am staying is to be around if they (kids) really need protecting. 

Frustrating that there is no "justice" in this...

No it is not all about them, it is about not wasting our energy employing ineffective methods of dealing with it, which result in making it worse. For us and them

Yes, I absolutely do bring up things my BPDh has said. In the beginning, he was so out of control, it was hard to pin-point what to bring up because there was SO much, but now that I am taking charge and saying NO WAY to this behavior, it's so much easier.

I believe in accountability... . it's how we teach 2 year olds to stop hitting or biting, so why not an ADULT - with BPD or not? They CAN learn. You have to make them.

My husband started calming down after I oh-so Spock-like could repeat a few choice things he said word for word. He did NOT like that. Sometimes it made him rage more. I stood strong. I wouldn't argue that he did or did not say this or that... . I would tell him once and and just shake my head and say, "Nope" when he would argue against it. Sometimes he would throw back at me that I "Loved talking ___ to him"... . by this, he meant me repeating what HE said to me... . because he seriously did not remember it. When he repeatedly didn't believe me or denied it, I started recording him... . so hitting play and him hearing himself was mind-blowing for him... . total wake-up call.

No, it hasn't stopped his distorted thinking entirely... . he is working on it and he's had some shorter-lived semi-rages this past two months... . but I just stay calm and I do NOT sugar coat or let him off the hook. I just mentioned in another post that when he starts saying stupid, mean or hurtful things, or raging... . I say something like, "Wow, go look at yourself in the mirror right now, you look pretty goddamn stupid."

Some people think that's harsh (or funny), but it has worked for me... . well, for him, I guess. Total, absolute accountability for his actions.

He has never had anyone stand up to him before and was NOT taught anything of worth by his mother or father... . so I get to struggle to teach him 36 years worth of lessons... . well, me and the therapist both do.

Yay.

No, I usually don't bring up what my BPDw has said or done in the past. A good reason is that she has a way of just twisting things around. The last time I did, she said that she understood why her first husband did the same things she is doing now. By the way, she complained about her first husband being out so much. Now, she realizes that she is doing it, and even when I have shared with her how she felt which is exactly how I feel now, namely being isolated and alone much of the time, she discounts my feelings.

Even though this is the case, I have not forgotten her statements and her actions. I have basically forgiven her for them, but she still isolates herself to the extreme. It is almost like she is doing the same things her first husband did to her to get back at him by doing them to me.

That is why I feel isolated and alone.

Effective for what? We are three members in our family. Ca 30% of the time my wife is in a state where she is more or less abusive towards me and our daughter.

As someone so well described it above, separation is not a good alternative right now because that would mean a completely out-of-control situation 50% of the time.

Imagine someone close to you alters between bullying you and then being nice to you. For a child to learn to prentend like nothing happened and that everything is fine and dandy instantly after having been been subjected to abuse is not a good thing. Perhaps it's a good thing for the person with BPD, but a four year old  can't understand the difference between BPD mom and other people. The child is going to learn to tolerate abuse.

I'm sorry, but BPD people are not psychotic. They know perfectly well what they do, and they will have to play by the same rules as the rest of us if they are going to live among us. In a single household I think there is the possibility to just ignore the insanity or bend your back until it breaks and survive that way, but with kids involved it's more difficult. You can't make them re-think, re-write the rules and think zen. They don't care about all that.

Good way of identifying my thinking and putting hard numbers to it.  I look at the situation and have two lovely choices... . suck... . or suck worse.  I think I choose wisely... given the choices that I have.  I still get emotional sometimes and wish I had different choices... . luckily I seem to get over that pretty quick and move along.

Effective means are those that address the attitude displayed, rather than the nuts and bolts of 100s of little examples, which are in effect symptoms of the attitudes.  Analyzing the diatribes in detail can often lead into further defensive tangents. Details are fuel to a pwBPD's argumentative traits

ie To point out that the anger, blaming or aggressive behavior is not acceptable and a bad influence on the kids, and act out a consequence, is probably more effective than going into details saying you said this, this, this, and that. As you say if they are not psychotic, they know what they said, you know what they said. They know you know. To state the obvious will only provoke further twisted defensive behavior.

Backing someone into a corner provokes a fight or flight reaction, not reasonable thought

The problem is the behavior, the actions and words are the symptoms. It is easier to employ actionable boundaries against behavior. It also keeps you above it and less angry within yourself

Definitely don't just turn a blind eye to bad behavior, but do keep an eye on the big picture and stay out of the crazy dance.

The most important thing about identifying your choices even if the best one is not good it is still better than just living by default. Awareness of choice is a starting point.

But am I the only with this dilemma:

My BPDw wife will try to downplay the severity of what has happened, alternateively pretend it didn't happen at all. Which leaves with no alternative but to go into a discussion about exactly what she said or did.

At the end I often get my point across - even though the discussion and argument is certainly no fun - and my wife sees what she's done.

If I had not done this, she would have kept fooling herself that it was no biggie.

As I said, they are not psychotic, but they are prepared to lie both to others and themselves.

And it's not like they really know deep inside. They (or at least my wife) only seem to know when reminded. Otherwise she will keep living in pathologically deep denial.

And what I meant with the kid was that a child's way to approach what has been done wrong to them is most certainly to hold that person accountable for every word he did or said. It's unreasonable to demand that a child should give her mom a special treatment and NOT bring up things that mom has said and that they have all reason to be angry about because it will upset mom. As a partner I can give my wife the psych nurse treatment, but my daughter can't (and shouldn't) and the rest of the world won't.

The thought just strikes me that the kid will comes across (and feel like) the only person who stands up against mom's abuse. She will wonder why I take all that cr*p from her, and if that's what grown ups are supposed to do.

Bringing up what was said in the non-immediate past seems like a losing proposition to me--It is invalidating, and not very effective at changing future behavior.

If your wife starts verbally abusing you, I'd recommend using boundaries to immediately protect yourself. (Leave the conversation/room/house/whatever it takes). Then your daughter won't see you taking cr*p sitting down.

If you call your wife on verbal abuse and she immediately downplays it, that is a different issue, and probably requires a little more nuance. A specific example of that would help.

I don't get a lot of abuse anymore because I have learnt not to take the bait and engage. That's the trick. That's how many of us here get along. We're provoked all the time, but we've learnt not to lose it.

A child can't do that. So they take the bait. My wife and daughter at eachother's throats all the time. Of course my daughter will think it's her fault, since I don't get into her fights with her mother even when I'm provoked.

Even when I do get too much abuse and my cup overflows my options are limited. Either I leave my 4 year old with a dysregulated BPD mother or I take the kid and leave the house (dramatic and upsetting for both mother and child). I have done scenario number two on a number of occasions because it's been neccasary, but you just can't do that daily.

When a child is involved it's often necesary to discuss things afterwards, when the child is not present. My wife avoids this at all costs.

Example: I think she crossed a line with something she did towards our daughter earlier in the day. I'm not sure she thinks so herself, so I feel there is a need to discuss this. I bring it up after our daughter has gone to bed (obligatory knot in stomach because this is going to be difficult). I tell her that I felt uneasy about what happened. Usually, this leads to her going into defensive mode - re-telling the events and leaving out all the details that I found uppsetting to begin with. And from there perhaps you see why the discussion is landing in "... . who said what" territory.

Perhaps I could just state my case and say "I think you went too far", but knowing her I think she would feel too accused by such a statement and she would come back with questions that would eventuallly lead up to the same "... . who said what" conversation.

You are correct discussing leads to a blame game conflict. State your view as you see it, then dont bother trying to convince her or win her around to your view. She heard, she understood, the inevitable denial defensiveness is as much to convince herself  as you. The more you debate it the more she will self validate the invalid. Reinforcing her belief in her own version if you like.

Trying to convince a pwBPD of our on view of reality is one of the greatest sources of frustration, inevitably putting us in a worse place.

For brief dysregulations that blow over no for a big crisis yes I do as I still take what is said to heart and need them  to explain themselves/confirm they didn't mean it/apologise. Sometime they don't remember what was said and sometimes they do.

I think boundary enforcement is going to work best for this one too.

When you are protecting yourself that way (leaving a conversation/situation/etc.), you do take on some unpleasant consequences for yourself, but avoid worse consequences by staying in an abusive situation. You make the choice for yourself.

If you need to remove your daughter, as you say... .


The drama/upset for the mother is for her to deal with... . you can't pander to that.

But you do have to balance the drama/upset of the disruption for your daughter vs. the consequences of leaving her with her mom. This is tougher because you are enforcing the boundary on her behalf, not your own.

I think you will find more peace for yourself if you make some clear, firm, hard-nosed distinctions in your own mind as to where that line is, and take action as needed if your wife crosses the line.

As waverider said... . trying to convince your wife that you were right and she was wrong isn't going to improve anything at your house.