Do you ever bring up or discuss things said during dysregulaton?

[hergestridge]

As me and my wife have a child together and I fear that we might come in a situation where we have to discuss custody - in court or with professionals if necessary, I have to take notes of my wife's dysregulative behaviour and bring up my wive's behaviour to make her stop and intervene at times.

Of course she wants (and expects) the outrageous and unacceptable things she says and does to me and our daughter to be forgotten about the next day. But the whole world does not revolve around my BPDw and her needs.

Her promises not to "do it" again are just so hollow, especially when she's forgoten all about the dysregulation. And I can't help but realize that part of the reason why she's forgotten all about it is that we never mention the dysregulation again after it happened (or at least that's how it used to be).

And no, I don't have a good method or a better suggestion. But we have a daughter, and there is not way you explain to her why her mother blows up for no reason and says the most hurtful things and that you mustn't mention anything about it to her afterwards. The kid has every reason to bash her mother about it. Everything else would be so ___ed up.

This is where I think we're losing perspective sometimes. It's not all about the pwBPD, is it?

[formflier]

This is where I think we're losing perspective sometimes. It's not all about the pwBPD, is it?

No it's not all about them... .

However... . if we want to stay together... . my (our) choices seem to be fairly limited until the point in time where there is an honest effort at getting better (treatment).

I find myself honestly wondering if splitting would be better... . because at least then on my time I could provide a reasonable (normal) existence for my kids.

However (that word gets used alot when considered BPD nuances)... . when I look at guys that are divorced from a lady with BPD... . the divorce really doesn't fix anything... . there is still a sucky relationship that you have to deal with.

Even worse is that there are times now where legally you don't have control over your kids. 

Part of the reason I am staying is to be around if they (kids) really need protecting. 

Frustrating that there is no "justice" in this...

[waverider]

No it is not all about them, it is about not wasting our energy employing ineffective methods of dealing with it, which result in making it worse. For us and them

[MyGreatEscape]

Yes, I absolutely do bring up things my BPDh has said. In the beginning, he was so out of control, it was hard to pin-point what to bring up because there was SO much, but now that I am taking charge and saying NO WAY to this behavior, it's so much easier.

I believe in accountability... . it's how we teach 2 year olds to stop hitting or biting, so why not an ADULT - with BPD or not? They CAN learn. You have to make them.

My husband started calming down after I oh-so Spock-like could repeat a few choice things he said word for word. He did NOT like that. Sometimes it made him rage more. I stood strong. I wouldn't argue that he did or did not say this or that... . I would tell him once and and just shake my head and say, "Nope" when he would argue against it. Sometimes he would throw back at me that I "Loved talking ___ to him"... . by this, he meant me repeating what HE said to me... . because he seriously did not remember it. When he repeatedly didn't believe me or denied it, I started recording him... . so hitting play and him hearing himself was mind-blowing for him... . total wake-up call.

No, it hasn't stopped his distorted thinking entirely... . he is working on it and he's had some shorter-lived semi-rages this past two months... . but I just stay calm and I do NOT sugar coat or let him off the hook. I just mentioned in another post that when he starts saying stupid, mean or hurtful things, or raging... . I say something like, "Wow, go look at yourself in the mirror right now, you look pretty goddamn stupid."

Some people think that's harsh (or funny), but it has worked for me... . well, for him, I guess. Total, absolute accountability for his actions.

He has never had anyone stand up to him before and was NOT taught anything of worth by his mother or father... . so I get to struggle to teach him 36 years worth of lessons... . well, me and the therapist both do.

Yay.

[Samuel S.]

No, I usually don't bring up what my BPDw has said or done in the past. A good reason is that she has a way of just twisting things around. The last time I did, she said that she understood why her first husband did the same things she is doing now. By the way, she complained about her first husband being out so much. Now, she realizes that she is doing it, and even when I have shared with her how she felt which is exactly how I feel now, namely being isolated and alone much of the time, she discounts my feelings.

Even though this is the case, I have not forgotten her statements and her actions. I have basically forgiven her for them, but she still isolates herself to the extreme. It is almost like she is doing the same things her first husband did to her to get back at him by doing them to me.

That is why I feel isolated and alone.

[hergestridge]

No it is not all about them, it is about not wasting our energy employing ineffective methods of dealing with it, which result in making it worse. For us and them

Effective for what? We are three members in our family. Ca 30% of the time my wife is in a state where she is more or less abusive towards me and our daughter.

As someone so well described it above, separation is not a good alternative right now because that would mean a completely out-of-control situation 50% of the time.

Imagine someone close to you alters between bullying you and then being nice to you. For a child to learn to prentend like nothing happened and that everything is fine and dandy instantly after having been been subjected to abuse is not a good thing. Perhaps it's a good thing for the person with BPD, but a four year old  can't understand the difference between BPD mom and other people. The child is going to learn to tolerate abuse.

I'm sorry, but BPD people are not psychotic. They know perfectly well what they do, and they will have to play by the same rules as the rest of us if they are going to live among us. In a single household I think there is the possibility to just ignore the insanity or bend your back until it breaks and survive that way, but with kids involved it's more difficult. You can't make them re-think, re-write the rules and think zen. They don't care about all that.

[formflier]

No it is not all about them, it is about not wasting our energy employing ineffective methods of dealing with it, which result in making it worse. For us and them

As someone so well described it above, separation is not a good alternative right now because that would mean a completely out-of-control situation 50% of the time.

Good way of identifying my thinking and putting hard numbers to it.  I look at the situation and have two lovely choices... . suck... . or suck worse.  I think I choose wisely... given the choices that I have.  I still get emotional sometimes and wish I had different choices... . luckily I seem to get over that pretty quick and move along.

[waverider]

Effective means are those that address the attitude displayed, rather than the nuts and bolts of 100s of little examples, which are in effect symptoms of the attitudes.  Analyzing the diatribes in detail can often lead into further defensive tangents. Details are fuel to a pwBPD's argumentative traits

ie To point out that the anger, blaming or aggressive behavior is not acceptable and a bad influence on the kids, and act out a consequence, is probably more effective than going into details saying you said this, this, this, and that. As you say if they are not psychotic, they know what they said, you know what they said. They know you know. To state the obvious will only provoke further twisted defensive behavior.

Backing someone into a corner provokes a fight or flight reaction, not reasonable thought

The problem is the behavior, the actions and words are the symptoms. It is easier to employ actionable boundaries against behavior. It also keeps you above it and less angry within yourself

Definitely don't just turn a blind eye to bad behavior, but do keep an eye on the big picture and stay out of the crazy dance.

[waverider]

No it is not all about them, it is about not wasting our energy employing ineffective methods of dealing with it, which result in making it worse. For us and them

As someone so well described it above, separation is not a good alternative right now because that would mean a completely out-of-control situation 50% of the time.

Good way of identifying my thinking and putting hard numbers to it.  I look at the situation and have two lovely choices... . suck... . or suck worse.  I think I choose wisely... given the choices that I have.  I still get emotional sometimes and wish I had different choices... . luckily I seem to get over that pretty quick and move along.

The most important thing about identifying your choices even if the best one is not good it is still better than just living by default. Awareness of choice is a starting point.

[hergestridge]

But am I the only with this dilemma:

My BPDw wife will try to downplay the severity of what has happened, alternateively pretend it didn't happen at all. Which leaves with no alternative but to go into a discussion about exactly what she said or did.

At the end I often get my point across - even though the discussion and argument is certainly no fun - and my wife sees what she's done.

If I had not done this, she would have kept fooling herself that it was no biggie.

As I said, they are not psychotic, but they are prepared to lie both to others and themselves.

And it's not like they really know deep inside. They (or at least my wife) only seem to know when reminded. Otherwise she will keep living in pathologically deep denial.

And what I meant with the kid was that a child's way to approach what has been done wrong to them is most certainly to hold that person accountable for every word he did or said. It's unreasonable to demand that a child should give her mom a special treatment and NOT bring up things that mom has said and that they have all reason to be angry about because it will upset mom. As a partner I can give my wife the psych nurse treatment, but my daughter can't (and shouldn't) and the rest of the world won't.

The thought just strikes me that the kid will comes across (and feel like) the only person who stands up against mom's abuse. She will wonder why I take all that cr*p from her, and if that's what grown ups are supposed to do.

[Grey Kitty]

My BPDw wife will try to downplay the severity of what has happened, alternateively pretend it didn't happen at all. Which leaves with no alternative but to go into a discussion about exactly what she said or did.

She will wonder why I take all that cr*p from her, and if that's what grown ups are supposed to do.

Bringing up what was said in the non-immediate past seems like a losing proposition to me--It is invalidating, and not very effective at changing future behavior.

If your wife starts verbally abusing you, I'd recommend using boundaries to immediately protect yourself. (Leave the conversation/room/house/whatever it takes). Then your daughter won't see you taking cr*p sitting down.

If you call your wife on verbal abuse and she immediately downplays it, that is a different issue, and probably requires a little more nuance. A specific example of that would help.

[hergestridge]

My BPDw wife will try to downplay the severity of what has happened, alternateively pretend it didn't happen at all. Which leaves with no alternative but to go into a discussion about exactly what she said or did.

She will wonder why I take all that cr*p from her, and if that's what grown ups are supposed to do.

Bringing up what was said in the non-immediate past seems like a losing proposition to me--It is invalidating, and not very effective at changing future behavior.

If your wife starts verbally abusing you, I'd recommend using boundaries to immediately protect yourself. (Leave the conversation/room/house/whatever it takes). Then your daughter won't see you taking cr*p sitting down.

If you call your wife on verbal abuse and she immediately downplays it, that is a different issue, and probably requires a little more nuance. A specific example of that would help.

I don't get a lot of abuse anymore because I have learnt not to take the bait and engage. That's the trick. That's how many of us here get along. We're provoked all the time, but we've learnt not to lose it.

A child can't do that. So they take the bait. My wife and daughter at eachother's throats all the time. Of course my daughter will think it's her fault, since I don't get into her fights with her mother even when I'm provoked.

Even when I do get too much abuse and my cup overflows my options are limited. Either I leave my 4 year old with a dysregulated BPD mother or I take the kid and leave the house (dramatic and upsetting for both mother and child). I have done scenario number two on a number of occasions because it's been neccasary, but you just can't do that daily.

When a child is involved it's often necesary to discuss things afterwards, when the child is not present. My wife avoids this at all costs.

Example: I think she crossed a line with something she did towards our daughter earlier in the day. I'm not sure she thinks so herself, so I feel there is a need to discuss this. I bring it up after our daughter has gone to bed (obligatory knot in stomach because this is going to be difficult). I tell her that I felt uneasy about what happened. Usually, this leads to her going into defensive mode - re-telling the events and leaving out all the details that I found uppsetting to begin with. And from there perhaps you see why the discussion is landing in "... . who said what" territory.

Perhaps I could just state my case and say "I think you went too far", but knowing her I think she would feel too accused by such a statement and she would come back with questions that would eventuallly lead up to the same "... . who said what" conversation.

[waverider]

When a child is involved it's often necesary to discuss things afterwards, when the child is not present. My wife avoids this at all costs.

Example: I think she crossed a line with something she did towards our daughter earlier in the day. I'm not sure she thinks so herself, so I feel there is a need to discuss this. I bring it up after our daughter has gone to bed (obligatory knot in stomach because this is going to be difficult). I tell her that I felt uneasy about what happened. Usually, this leads to her going into defensive mode - re-telling the events and leaving out all the details that I found uppsetting to begin with. And from there perhaps you see why the discussion is landing in "... . who said what" territory.

Perhaps I could just state my case and say "I think you went too far", but knowing her I think she would feel too accused by such a statement and she would come back with questions that would eventuallly lead up to the same "... . who said what" conversation.

You are correct discussing leads to a blame game conflict. State your view as you see it, then dont bother trying to convince her or win her around to your view. She heard, she understood, the inevitable denial defensiveness is as much to convince herself  as you. The more you debate it the more she will self validate the invalid. Reinforcing her belief in her own version if you like.

Trying to convince a pwBPD of our on view of reality is one of the greatest sources of frustration, inevitably putting us in a worse place.

[Miss Topaz]

For brief dysregulations that blow over no for a big crisis yes I do as I still take what is said to heart and need them  to explain themselves/confirm they didn't mean it/apologise. Sometime they don't remember what was said and sometimes they do.

[Grey Kitty]

I think boundary enforcement is going to work best for this one too.

When you are protecting yourself that way (leaving a conversation/situation/etc.), you do take on some unpleasant consequences for yourself, but avoid worse consequences by staying in an abusive situation. You make the choice for yourself.

If you need to remove your daughter, as you say... .

I take the kid and leave the house (dramatic and upsetting for both mother and child). I have done scenario number two on a number of occasions because it's been neccasary, but you just can't do that daily.

The drama/upset for the mother is for her to deal with... . you can't pander to that.

But you do have to balance the drama/upset of the disruption for your daughter vs. the consequences of leaving her with her mom. This is tougher because you are enforcing the boundary on her behalf, not your own.

I think you will find more peace for yourself if you make some clear, firm, hard-nosed distinctions in your own mind as to where that line is, and take action as needed if your wife crosses the line.

As waverider said... . trying to convince your wife that you were right and she was wrong isn't going to improve anything at your house.