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Still I sit hear juts hoping things get better or go away while i do nothing. Unless I listen to my wife where I am the reason for her hating the last 12 years of her miserable life made so by my existance. Really even those comments don't make me pack up what few things are truely mine and leave? She is right about 1 thing. The last 12 years have not been something I have enjoyed for the most part either.

Knowing this why do I punish myslef and her by not leaving . She says she isn't happy and maybe leavign will take out the 1 thing she sees as being th eproblem in her life. We all here know that isn't realy the case. Leaving won't make her life all of a sudden happier for her. But I'm willing to see. I know it will for me.

Cipher13 - I'm with you all the way ... . !

Its not easy ... . at all

I'm from the "Staying Board" but "downgraded" to "Undecided"

thinking of "downgrading" more

just to pack my bags and run away as I'm being cheated

(see definition of cheating by Dr Phil) on a daily basis.

I'm an enabler / codependent (the shrink says I'm desperate ... . how true ... . )

(thinking of how wonderful it could be with a "normal" person

Romance, intimacy, laughter, HONESTY, camaraderie... . )

Man ... . its not easy  ... . we have two toddlers (3 and 5)

I love her dearly

I love the kiddos to the moon . . .

I cant go ... .

Cant set boundaries ... . she is in her own world ... .

communication is almost zero

What to do bro ?

Praying non stop... . God we beg from you  ... . praying for you too my friend !

Sorry got to add this:

We are the same !   "just sit and wait"

Nothing is going change for both of us brother !

(Prayer alone wont be enough - the lord wants us to do something)

We got to do something, now I'm talking to myself:

   Boundaries is the start I guess ?  

But how?

Going to make a new post on this issue - follow me

at undecided "Practical problems setting boundaries"

Are you afraid of how she'll react if you leave?

No, not at all

There are 3 reasons that I don't leave:

- Financial (we support each other)

- Our 2 toddlers

- I still love her very much (codependent)

Yes and no place to go to. I guess in my head I am waitign fo rher to leave.

Fanie you are right. Prayer is good but action is required along with. If God wanted us to to just sit and wait her wouldn't have given us a brain. Lord knows I havn't used it to its potential in this.

Hi Cipher

I think you are not too young anymore

Same here, im 56 she is 31 !

Now nevermind the age difference

BPD does know about ages  :) but true

Love is just so freakin addictive

This is my second wife

There was no love with the first

Then the second one knocked me over completely - a real BPD

But of course I didn't know a thing about BPD 10 years ago

I mean we had great times over the 10 years

But too much recycling (possibly 20)

and cheating

I have to make decisions (so are you)

Not easy buddy, but we have to ... .

and my kiddos ... . man 

(never stop praying !)

Goodluck

keep in touch

Regarding no place to go - why do you feel this way?  If you absolutely need to go, could you find an apartment or even rent a basement from someone?

I do have a place I could go I guess. Co-worker has gone through this before. Then the reality is I am just waiting for her to do the leaving.

Is that a realistic expectation?  I believe you joined the Army to get away from her but she still didn't leave the relationship?  Her past behavior has been to not leave.  Why would that change?

And why wait for her to leave if you want out?  Afraid to the bad guy?  (for the record I suffer immensely from being afraid to be the bad guy, until I get pushed to the point of not caring which for me is a lot farther than it should be).

You know you go and put a comment on here then some just blatently goes makes a whole lot of sense.  I don't want to be the bad guy either. But when I listen to her words I already am the bad guy. Last night she made a request that on the surface I thought was good. She wanted 2 lists from me. First one is reasons that I love her. The second are all the things i can do to show her that I love her.  I was put off right off the bat by the request not becasue I didn't want to be becasue it was a demand via text.

The second list right now is her focus and carries more weight. After I wrote it out in the middle of the night I found out how she wants those things completed... . Every single day all day all the time with so much passion that she is constantly floored by it.  Don't get me wrong I love her and I do a lot of things for her.  Example last night watching a little TV. Not sure how I can spice that up constantly so that there is never any point where she is bored with me and I am not flaunting over her. I made dinner. I rubbed her feet. Its not like I ignored her.

Once she gets bored with the things on this list, and she will, you will have to write a new list, with things more exotic (and expensive). Every hour of every day, your thoughts will be consumed with her... . not pleasant thoughts... . but thoughts of are you doing enough to keep her in this unrealistic state of constant euphoria that she seeks. You do what you can to keep the Day of Reckoning from coming, which is that you ultimately failed at this game she is playing with you. She will be bored with you, and it is completely your fault. You just don't love her enough, because if you did, the constant passion will be easy for you. But everything is an effort for you, which means that you don't actually love her, in her eyes.

I went exactly through this. To comply is that path of least resistance, but it can utterly destroy you, let alone your finances. And in the end, your marriage is in the same state as it would be if you never played along.

You know that "new love" feeling? Studies have shown this has the same effect on the brain as drugs. When you two first started dating, your foot rub that you gave her would have been very stimulating to her. Now, she is probably thinking how little imagination you had by doing the same thing over and over.

You can't win this game - you just cannot.

If you want change, you are going to have to be the one to instigate it. You are going to have to be the "bad guy".

She still wants to move. I still don't want to but I caved enough to say I'll consider even though I don't want to. I know thats nto good. I also have to tell he eventually I need to go out of town on work training. She has gone the last 2 times. This time I am traveling with male co-worker. The last tiem she came with was horrible. I couldn't concentrate on my work at all.

i am thinking same.  Totally in FOG.  I am terrified of her, I cannot leave cause I feel obligated and guilt to the nth degree.  Death sounds better...

She has cheated on me, been an addict, attempted suicide twice, has broken in and vandalized home which I handled, straddled me with enormous debt, destroyed my relationships, said we should joint suicide

she wants my job gone but wants more money (6 figures isnt enough), she wrecked her car at 2 am and wants a loaded up lexus now after she just half way remodeled our house and wracked up debt. Medical bills for her BPD and other things are up to $30k a year.  The insurance company took 2 weeks to get us funds and she blames me. 

I supported her through art school and now she blames me for that cause she cannot find a career.  She says i do not believe in her, i do not value her, I do not care...

Yet, I have given up everyone and thing just about for her.  My whole life is devoted to her wants just about now.  I am the one person to tells her she is great how she is and that she should pursue her dreams...

I am scared though. I am scared to go home, I am scared to go to work where she will call all day telling me what all i did wrong...

I feel like I am going insane... if I am what she says then i am a monster.  If I am what I think then she maybe a monster.  one of us is crazy though.

I am co dependent...   I do have ocd... I love her kids, and I love her.  I wish it could be simply i blow my head off and everything goes well for those around me.  I do not want to deal with any of this anymore.

I do not have the strength to be the ass it will take to separate... to leave her with no job, no nothing... the kids...

o and I have no right to kids cause even though I have been in their lives since they were 1 and 3 for 11 years... I am not their biological father. 

I am a broken man.  I do not have the energy to even reclaim myself.  I have nothing to live for at this point. 

hurthusband

I am with you in almost every aspect. I feel worthless and I get raked over the coals for not replying to emails or texts fast enough while I am working. I provide everythign ai can for her and do what even she asks. If you love those kids then you have reasons to be here. If they love you and respect you you have reasons to be here. I don't have kids and its still hard to leave. This illness is horrible. But when you "caretakers" liek the 2 of us it sucks us in where others would stand up and for themselves.

Let me ask you this. Does it feel selfish to want to do something on your own with out her? Yet you want notign more than to really get away? 

Cipher13,

You have a few choices.

1. Continue with things exactly the way they are.

2. Leave your r/s

3. Change your role in your r/s

4. Wait for your wife to change her role in your r/s.

Unfortunately, Option #4 is exactly the same as option #1.

None of them are easy. We all know that.

I generally prod people toward choice #3, but it really is your choice.

Which one do you want to try next, and how can we assist you on it?

this illness is horrible... i honestly feel worse for them having to suffer in it than us having to deal with it, but at same time... it kills us too

Hi Cipher

what exactly prevents you from doing things for your own? Is it just because she don't like it and making a drama if you would do something for you?

Or is it something else?

For me one of the things in my head was: If I am nice to someone in a rs he will be nice with me too. It cannot be different. It was like a shock to realize for me that this idea is not working with everyone.

Another thought to your situation: I can relate to your wishes she would leave. I had the same wishes in the near end from my marriage too. Its good you are aware of this.

GK I agree that #3 is the option I should try. In doing that Surnia I was thinking that I really dont like the guilt that gets placed on me for having such "selfish" thoughts. This is the drama I avoid. Truth is I work hard to avoifdthat drama and a diffrent one will happen anyway. I guess its the drama I know will happen that I try to prevent with my not doing things for me and my well being.

There is something that I do really want soem help with that would mean the world to me. I want to reconnect with my family. I still email them and they miss me but I have not seen them in years even though I only live a few hours away. My wife has painted them permanant black. Now that I think of it I feel that was always her plan. She had only met them a handful of times before we got married. And even when planning the wedding she really wanted a specific scripture reading to be very prominate. That is the one where "A man leaves his mother and his father for his wife.  She I think said that she picked it specifically for my mom.  Now don't get me wrong I think to a certain degree thats true but I think she meant it to be more literal.

So if we could find ways for me to beable to discuss this with my wife that really would make all the differenc ein my life. I must warn you though. I think this topic alone would possible make her angry enough to leave or really make things worse. She has had many many many nightmares about me leaving her to go back tl live with my parents or them kidnapping me from her.

Hi Cipher,

I sometimes think that we put too much emphasis on 'discussing' things with our pwBPD, hoping that they'll get what we're saying and where we're coming from, when boundaries are actually needed.  Yours might be that you value family and keeping those connections close is really important, therefore you will make time to see them.  PERIOD!  It really has NOTHING to do with her.  They're your parents.  Your family.  Make time for them.

Yes, this was a shock for me too, with my uBPDw. Not only that, but she seems to think that love/affection is something you can convince another person (i.e. me) to feel for her.

My own belief is:

* Treat other people as you want to be treated yourself.

* If you want another person to love you, then you need to treat that person with respect, and trust that other person.

I can definitely say that my uBPDw does not believe in the first. Maybe she has some belief in the second, but she thinks it's done in the moment, i.e. if you treat someone that way this very moment that person should be able to love you, disregarding that you have treated that person very badly just moments before.

Cipher - I'm seconding 123Phoebe here.  Take a weekend and go home and see your family.  Simply tell your wife what you are doing.  Give her the details of the plan.  Leaving at (date/time).  Traveling back (date/time).  You don't need her permission.

Why does it seem so simple yet thinking about what will be the outcome completely is tying my stomach in knots. I know the threat will be ":)on't baother coming back." I seriously would take her up on that I think.

Cipher,  have you followed up on getting a therapist just for yourself?

Remember, you are only responsible for you.  You are not responsible nor can you change what your uBPDw is going to feel.  I can guarantee that she is going to feel threatened by you visiting your family.  Stop and ask yourself if you can live with the consequences of not going if one of your parents were to die in an accident tomorrow? 

You have to treaty you wife as you would a small child who does not get their way.  Come up with a repeatable set of answers that will fit her reactions and stick to the the script.

- Her "You don't love me" - Cipher - "I am sorry you feel that way"

- Her "You only think of yourself" - Cipher - "I am sorry you feel that way"

- Her "I will miss you" - Cipher - "My family is important to me and I will be back in X days"

Do not JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain) - you are going to see your family, that is a statement of fact.

ugh I follow JADE waaaay too much.  The problem is the script part she hates because she says I am treating her like a child which gets under her skin.  That is one problem I am having.  My wife sees that I am using SET and other techniqures and basically calls me out saying its bull___ and cut it out

I can so relate - no, it is really not simple. I know it, I was in similar shoes. Being assertive, standing my ground, being not "nice", saying NO - all this was very difficult. So much fear and doubts. So many knots... .

totally got to agree with hurthusband here. I have used SET and its never made it any easier. "I'm sorry you feel that way" makes it worse.

I've found that I have to actually mean what I'm saying for it to be received correctly (truth & boundaries) and so be it to how someone chooses to interpret it incorrectly-- it is out of my control anyway.

"I'm sorry you feel that way" could be changed to, "I'm doing this for me, because it's important (to me!)"  Own it.  Really, seeing your family needs no explanation, Cipher.  All of that fear and anxiety surrounding her possible reaction    is    your    stuff.  Own that too.  Then get on with it.  Our emotions can keep us stuck or they can set us free... .

Talking about it only gets us so far, then we gotta actually do something about it.

Yay!

Props to HurtHusband and Phoebe.  Sorry if I was unclear Cipher.   For those of us who have spouse who are high functioning, such as Hurt and mine, they do indeed catch on that we are using SET or other techniques.  And as they correctly stated, at that point you are not reassuring them, rather making a simple statement of fact.

Bravo to Phoebe for pointing out that while the technique is the same the message is different.  If you state, " I am going to see my family because it is important to me." that is an absolutely true statement.  There is no room for argument, and no reason for you to equivocate.  While your uBPDw may and probably will react in many unacceptable ways, ultimately, the truth that matters is yours.

Yes it is simple. Nobody ever said that simple was easy though! It is indeed incredibly hard to do.

As far as the "don't come back" threat goes... . I'd simply say "I love my family and I love you. I will be coming back on (day)" and disengage from her then.

Yes, you can turn yourself inside out and tie stomach in knots over this. I expect you will do it anyway, whether you go or not... . might as well get a nice visit with your family out of it!

Believe it or not, this sort of thing gets easier with practice!

o my wife is non functioning.  She associates with nobody and hates everone.  She has no job, cept for parttime cleaning she says she is going to quit every day.  She literally lives on rage and hate.  Its like the force or something.  She can go without eating or sleep and feel exhausted, then get angry and go full alive.  Detect every SET and other trick in the book.  She is smart and hyper-perceptive to the point she percieves things that are not there.

I can state a fact to her, the problem is her reactions are abuse.  Vast majority is just verbal abuse that also follows me to work and everywhere else.  rarely physical as far as kicking windshields out, throwing large objects at me, hitting me, kicking me etc.  While I maybe seeing my family, her argument is I am choosing them over her and she feels that way.  Which is her own statement of fact on how she feels.  I cannot argue that, but by not saying anything, I am reinforcing that.  By saying something, I am walking into a gaslight situation and the only ways to prove to her

My high functioning on/off exBPDbf flips out when I say something like that... .   One time he even yelled me to NOT say "I understand I made you feel that way" in response to his demand that I admit that I did something I did not do.  He will not allow a response unless it is a specific admission of guilt and acknowledgement of what I have done wrong, regardless of the fact that I may not have done what he accuses me of... .  


That statement is also deadon for my ex... .    

I think the best you can do is say once "I don't feel that I'm choosing them over you." and then leave the (now abusive) conversation.

You don't have to make her agree with you. Actually, I doubt you can, and if you try, it will be invalidating instead of persuasive, i.e. make things worse, not better.

All you need to convince her is that you will be doing something (in this case, spending time with your family, then returning to her), not why you are doing it.

Yea, defending myself with common sense and rational thinking just does not work.  walking away on other hand does not stop anything either.  It just initiates repetitive calls, threats, cursing...

I think that my BPD has been enabled so far by me that trying to turn things around would be like taking a heroin addict off heroin cold turkey.  It will kill the relationship and us. 

The fact that she is 33, just finished art school, and realizing she has little career opportunities is a VERY stressful and scary situation for anyone.  The fact that she is BPD has just put her on the psychotic side too much.  Her fear of failure is making it even worse since choices are basically, continue to clean houses which she feels invalidates her by meaning that her pursuiing art was meaningless.  Option 2 being teach... she does not have the patience for high schoolers nor kids and has no desire for that.  Option 3 is creating and selling art, but she is scared to death of failure.

My rationale is try and sell and create art.  You are failing if you are not trying.  You have interest in it, you are good, and it has potential.  I started my own business, it is scary, but it is rewarding.

Until she gets some sort of self worth created by herself, I think her spinning out of control will never stop

Cipher13 & hurthusband,

May I offer a few words.

Despite all the torment, abuse, lies, manipulations let's go back to the fundamentals - this is not your behavior, but someone else's.

It is not YOUR state of being.

Go to that place.

YOUR state of being is one of standing in love, in compassion, one of honesty.

That state of being is not broken. It is worth celebrating even if the person you are with is incapable of doing so.

I hope those few simple words offer strength and faith in you.

That is a possible benefit of these boundaries. (Some long-term stayers have found that the rages did stop after they started enforcing boundaries against rage/abuse consistently)

However, that is NOT the reason you do it.

The reason you do it is to protect yourself. You should not be subject to that sort of verbal (or worse) abuse. So you step out to protect yourself.

She gets to choose whether to continue cursing, threatening, calling, whatever.

If you go away when it starts (or stop answering the phone after calls become abusive/harassing), you don't experience the abuse anymore. That is why you do it.

And if you come back to more of the same, go away for a little longer to protect yourself. These periods have always ended before, I expect this one will too, eventually.


Likely true. All you can do is give her some room to figure that out. You don't know how much success she will have.

However... . if you do let her take her rage out on you, you are depriving her of the chance to experience her own emotions and learn to deal with them.

Long after I had started enforcing boundaries, and the abuse had stopped, my wife did actually thank me for doing exactly this--leaving when she was out of control. She was left alone with her own feelings, and nobody to turn them on but herself. It was a !@#$!@# tough and unpleasant thing for her to go through. And she made herself a better person after going through it.

GK

I has to keep reminding myself that if I want anythign to change I have to change what I am doing. I am foolish to think that I can stop the abuse by taking it and just hoping she sees its wrong and change. Nope never going to happen. Especially when she is very adimit about that fact that I need to change. And you know what she is right. However it is nto the change she is thinking of but I do need to for my benefit. If she wants to take advantage of it and enjoy a new me then I welcome that. If not then best of luck to her. That door is still open.  She has mentioned last night she doesn't beleive I can do anythign becasue I havenot shown her I can follow through with things. To a point she is right. This being the prime example of  saying i need to do this and still not doing anything about it.

I think I may need to take a real hard look at DEARMAN again and really make it my own. I have tried it and others with no success that I could see. Maybe my approach was off or I didn't tailor it to my specific situation as well as I should have. We will see.

I think part of the problem at least with me is I live by the old Golden Rule.  Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You.

I am kind to people, they are kind back.  I am supportive, they are generally supportive back.

That logic does not work with a BPD.  Kindness and mercy is almost a show of weakness. In fact, logic gets you in trouble because they are illogical.  So you start trying to apply logic which invalidates.  I am not saying you have to be mean, but you have to detach from somebody you love which in itself seems wrong for a couple.

Expecting them to be grateful or thankful, is just not going to happen.  I cannot imagine that myself so its hard for me to understand them.  Especially when it was not always the case

IT is hard because you almost have to behave around them completely different than you would anyone else.  I mean at same time, if you can work things through with a BPD you can work with anyone which is good.

They say that you do not know what parenting is like until you have kids.  Then after years you get it.  With a BPD, there is no way to prepare yourself until you are there, and even then... I do not think it is possible to understand

Know when to use DEARMAN and when not to.

It is a communications technique to negotiate with a pwBPD, where you need their willing cooperation, i.e. you want them to actively do something when they have other choices (which you don't want)

For example, if you want your wife to participate nicely in an event with your family, you need her active cooperation to show up and be on good behavior.

These are exactly the sort of changes you are talking about making--and they will improve your life immensely, whether she decides to come along, stay behind, or something inbetween!

 GK

Don't use it to "negotiate" for rights that you already have--it will undermine you, not help you.

You can choose to visit your family; she doesn't need to help you do it at all! She doesn't have to be involved at all!

You can also choose to step out of an abusive conversation with her. (Whether it was started over you visiting your family... . or anything else). Once again, she doesn't have to do anything for you to leave.

Her new plan is to move to a remote area and become teachers at a school that barlet has 50 students k-12 and reduce our income by half all int he name of having 3 day weekends and somers off.  :'(  

HH,

I see the golden rule as something I do, because all humans deserve good behavior on my part, not because I expect good behavior back from them. I also don't see it as proscribing me from protecting myself others bad behavior. When I do need to protect myself, I try to do this in as good, kind, and gentle a way as I can.


I'm being a bit of a hardass here, but there is nothing in the Golden Rule about expecting others to be grateful or thankful or figure out that your intentions are kind and supportive.


Detaching with love is exactly what we suggest here. It isn't easy. I remember figuring out that I really loved my wife, and would my entire life. This didn't change just because I realized her behavior was harming me. I even decided that I might have to leave our r/s to protect myself, and if I did, I would always love her anyway. Much of the detachment was realizing which were her thoughts and feelings, and which were mine, and even if she told me what I meant or was thinking or feeling about her, that was her, and not me.


I disagree--the behavior we're suggesting for a pwBPD is the same as you would choose with a stranger, in the same circumstances... . it is just that we don't (usually) see this behavior from others in our daily life.

If a stranger started yelling at you about how awful a person you are, what would you do? (Imagine a drunk in a bar, or a (likely mentally ill) homeless person)

Would you try to defuse the situation?

If that wasn't working, would you walk away and end the confrontation?

Would you just stand there and listen to them? (for an hour?)

Would you argue or shout back at them?

 Sigh. What is your new plan?

She can choose to change jobs or move herself.

If you move or change jobs, that is your choice.

Told her I'm not going. She is going through a very nasty swearing and name calling spell. I'm just waitign for the tantrum to be over. And even more so considering leaving for good.

I stay because I'm still in love with the man he sometimes pretends to be.  Lately I have been more exposed to the real man he is and resent him for it, but for some reason I still love the man I once thought he was and deep down (even though I know better) still hope for him to be one day.  I stay for my kids, to have a "family" and not be raised by a single mom struggling.  I stay and help him put on this facade while I, myself deteriorate.

I have come to hate myself for what I've let happen in my life... . so maybe I also stay for the punishment subconsciously.

What was your response to her dysregulating?  I've found that when I just withdraw from such behavior, and not be around it, it tends to stop.  They have enough control that they don't keep blowing up when you aren't there to rage at.  And then they begin to not rant and rage because they know you'll leave if they do.  Which suggests they've got, and have always had, an ability at better self control and the rages are not really because they lost control, but because they are choosing to do it and they are in fact in complete control of themselves when they are raging.  They just feel entitled to do whatever they want to, devalue you in their minds so they can justify treating you however bad they want because you're not worth better anyway, and they genuinely think they are not wrong when they act like that.

I eventually came to the conclusion "why should I stick around someone like that?" and would bug out.

My response to the dysregulating was that if she was going to continue to swear swear at me I was no longer going to respond. This was over texting by the way. Her next responce to that was "Grow up".  How fitting  :)

She hasn't retuned an email or sent a text today. Thats unusual. She said in her mind its over. There is no more relationship. She has made it so I can't really talk to her as everytime I said somethiing last night it was ":)on't even say anything becasue I don't beeleive a single word you will even say."  Hard to talk to someone that way or mend any fences that need mending. So I didn't talk.

I just do not completely get it.  I suppose.  Do you really have a marriage if you are having to basically react to your spouse as you would a stranger?

I suppose you are preventing yourself from being hurt, but you are also preventing yourself from experiencing what a marriage should be.  I think you deserve that.

We keep on talking about doing whats good for ourselves too, but we are also saying we are willing to short change ourselves and how to properly short change ourselves to stay with these people.  I am not sure that is a marriage, but more of accepting we cannot be loved how we deserve to be loved.

Maybe I am wrong.  I define a marriage as two equals basically becoming one.  Both are equals, and both understand and know each other more so than anyone else.  There should be no fear.  Detaching away from your spouse more so than you would casual friends just to keep a marriage together because you love them doesnt seem right.  It almost sounds more like a caretaker parenting relationship than an equal marriage.  Not trying to be harsh.  I do not think the BPD wants a caretaker neither.  They want an equal and want to feel equal.  Basically, we are either manipulating them cause they will manipulate us, or we are living in a relationship that is more like siblings than as one...

I mean, I am sure I will do the same thing.  I love my wife and do not want to leave her so I will learn to basically detach some and be this way, but when I step back, that is still shortchanging myself and our own value. 

She's trying to badger you back into compliance/under her control.  A lot of us have been through the silent treatment.  It's better than being raged at. 

What are you doing to talk of yourself now?  Finding something that you can do a place to go that will result in some positive vibes is extremely important for people in your position right now.  Extracting yourself from the drama and immersing yourself in something stable and satisfying will go a long way towards helping you emotionally.

I over the years found myself doing everything for her. Even the things I thought were for me would be tailored to her wishes or interests by my own wanting to please her. I never set boundaries for myself and stood up for myslef from the first time we started to date. I can say the majority of my hurt is from my own doing. But I woulds say this. I wouldn't be suffering as much if the other person did not have to deal with BPD.

Great insight, Cipher.

I am btw. very familiar with it. Its a very difficult pattern for a relationship.

Do you have any idea where did it come from?

I don't know where that came from. I've always remeber being a pasive person aimed to please. I brought up reconnecting wit my parents this morning to her. Not the landslide explosion I expected but I feel that is because she hasn't stewed on it yet. She sais she was not interested in mending anything with them since we still have our issues. I said I'd like be better and left it at that.

She doesn't have to mend anything with them. When I can let go that she has that control over me from spending time with my family I will have made progress. That is what holds me back the most I think. In my mind have created a dilusion that she has some control over me.  She can be at work not goint ot be home for an hour and I will feel completely trapped in my house. If I tunr on the TV and change the last channel she will know I watched TV. That kind of thing controls my thoughts. I hope this makes somehting happen. It can't stay the same because if I liked it staying the same I wouldn't be on this forum.

Cipher - we are so glad you are staying here and we are all here for you!

I have a suggestion for you that helped me.  Try to start with something small.  For example if you are at work and she texts you, put the phone in you drawer go get coffee, take a walk, etc.  Specifically practice not responding for 30 minutes.  If she questions you, say oh I was away from my desk, I was in a meeting, etc.  After a while you stretch to an hour.  And so on.

Regarding setting boundaries at home, the most powerful tool I ever found was to get in my truck and leave.  I often would just drive to a nearby shopping center lot and sit quietly.  Sometimes I used the time to call and speak to my sisters, who provided such great support over the years.   Sometimes I reached out to a friend.  If I did not want to talk to anyone, I would shut off the phone as I did not wish to hear the incessant calling or texting as she tried to regain control.

|iiii

Great first step. Now it would be good to follow with a next little step. For example action. A little visit at your parents.

My guess is that she is assuming that if she don't want not to "mend" you won't do it neither. Enmeshment - both partners have to think and feel the same, otherwise the rs is seen as not good.

I have done this not on purpose but because legitimately I get busy and will go for an hour or more with reachin gout ot her. She hates that especially if I don't let her know in advance that I will be away or busy. Often times it doesn't  matter and says its not fair.


I only attempted to leave the house during a dyregualation moment 1 time. When she blocked my access to the leave the bedroom I was trapped. No phone to call and I was not going to physically touch her to move her out of the way. So I just waited it out.


Right.  But I think last night it tunred to a diffrent conversation. She wants to split. I finally aggreed but emphasized that is not my first instinct. Nothing more was said ohter than she is stuck between leavign and no thaving a job or having to ask for her job back which she has until today to do I guess. Not going to be a fun weekend.

Her action in that regard is actually considered domestic violence and abuse.  It's called false imprisonment in my state and it's an arrestable offence.

I've also dealt with it as well with uBPDgf and in the moment, waiting it out is the best thing to do.  But after, when the opportunity presents, it's best to leave immediately.  

I'd strongly recommend that you leave when she's out of control.  And given this history of blocking egress, I'd recommend you set up a bug out kit.  If you see her building to losing it, then go ahead and discretely grab your phone/wallet/keys/etc.  I used to keep a small bag with clothes and toiletries, as well as some cash and a spare credit card.  I'd keep it either under the spare tire in my trunk, or tucked away in my desk at work.  That way, if I bugged out, I was prepared for a hotel and had a way to take care of myself for the night, and the instant the chance presented itself, I could make a break for it.  

I did use the bug out bag too.  Twice.  

Another thing is to have a recording device of some sort handy.  If you're in this situation you have to protect yourself.  If you see she's moving towards dysregulating, go ahead and get it and turn it on.  Smartphones have easy recording apps, I use mine all the time still for various things.  That way, you can record her blocking your exit, and yourself not making things worse.

If she ever hits you, it's okay to cover up, but don't ever hit back, don't actively block, etc.  Even blockign can leave a bruise on an attackers arm, in DV situations, the cops will construe it as you hurting her, and you'll be fitted up for nice, new shining wrist bracelets in short order.  Let her hit you, cover up so she can't get a good shot on you, and exit the area as quick as you can.  Try to make sure that you're the one marked/bruised, and not her.  The cops won't listen to much of what anyone says.  They'll look at evidence first, and if you're both marked, either you both or just will go get arrested.  The only way you'll be able to justify to them your innocence is if you've got marks and she doesn't.  Also, don't call the cops from the scene of the incident.  Get away, calm down, give it some time, then call from wherever you are.  Or just got the precinct and ask to make a police report outside of her presence.  A lot of states have mandatory arrest laws if the cops respond to the scene of an in progress domestic incident.  That changes if you are not at the scene with her anymore.  So if you end up going to the cops, you do it outside of her presence, with documentation in the form of a recording or witness, and the bruises/marks on your body you can show them.

Speaking from experience, the bruises are a lot less damaging than a false DV charge.


It's really time for boundaries for yourself.  I'd strongly recommend you withdraw from the drama and find something more satisfying to keep yourself busy, separate from her. 

As for staying together or splitting, in general, people are attracted to strong, confident other people.  People that are independent in a healthy fashion and aren't clingy/needy.  If you become independently happy, take care of your own needs, and begin to project a confidence in yourself, you might become more attractive to her again.  Improving things on your end is going to involve improving yourself.  Being stronger, holding your own boundaries, and being a better you is the first step.  She won't begin to respect you until you start to respect yourself first.

I'm not going to repeat what waddams said, although it all sounds very good to me. Instead I'm going to address one other thing:


What I'd recommend for a situation like that is saying something like "I want to stay together, but I can't keep you if you choose to leave." or perhaps "I can't make you stay." The difference is that you are accepting that she can split, rather than agreeing with her that splitting is the right thing to do.

It makes your position clear. It puts the responsibility for her choice on her shoulders.

As a side note... . one thing I've observed: My wife would say things about ending our r/s in the middle of a dysregulated episode. She also said things about me wanting to leave or that I should leave... . However, if *I* said something about leaving it was a completely different thing.

Nothing fair or even vaguely reasonable about it... . just the a consequence of the mental illness.

Question, how do you handle just the constant "life is miserable, I want anywhere but here?"

on and on negativity and basically assault on everything you are...

how do you detach to the point of not caring about it anymore

hurthusband

I can offer you some advice here. Maybe as a what not to do. I have not fully detached but after hearing from it for almost 13 years now. I have such a thick skin that even thought the conversation are uncomfortable most of it bounces off and some times I fell like Charlie Brown in school... "WAHH WAHHH WAHH!"

Its hard for me to do but I separate myself mentally during those situations and focus on something positive and ride the storm out. Its not hte right way to handle it either. It makes it worse.

What to do about a parade of negativity?

1. (Best)

Validate how negative the person is feeling, and how horrible those feelings must be.

Sometimes you can't do that... . or your ability to do that evaporates in several rounds of more negativity. If you can't do it sincerely, it is better not to try; half-validation usually backfires.

2. (Next best)

Honestly say that you can't cope with this negativity right now, and steer the conversation to something else, or end it if you have to.

If neither of those works, checking out and saying "Yes, Dear" may work... . but it is invalidating if you get caught, and a pwBPD is pretty sensitive to that sort of thing!

the hard part about validating is she is accusing me of stuff that isnt true such as not loving her, or being cheap.  I just bought her a Lexus while I am driving a 10 year old Ford truck and her spending put us $30k more in debt in one years time!

I cannot validate stuff that is a lie about me.  I can say she I am sure she is miserable but response is "well what are you doing to do to change"

Don't validate the invalid. You can validate how hurt she is feeling.

It really *is* horrible to feel unloved, unappreciated, etc.

That these accusations are not based in reality doesn't change her FEELINGS about them at all.

You also don't have to agree to change anything because of her feelings. (You may choose to for various reasons, good, or bad... . but it isn't part of validation.)

The nature of the beast here is that her feelings become facts to her, and you shouldn't validate 'facts' that don't match your reality. The other side of the coin is that you don't need to convince her that her 'facts' are wrong. Only that you don't see it that way. Speak your truth once, then drop the argument--she heard you the first time, and if you repeat it fifty more times, she won't believe you--she will just feel invalidated and respond worse!

HH, I just noticed something else you mentioned... . that this negativity is focused on not just how terrible everything in the world is, but you personally.

This is tougher to handle--you are much more likely to take it personally and get triggered. I found that I could sometimes stay validating for a little while, but if it continued, I would lose it.

I have accepted that the best thing I can do at a time like that is just disengage from the conversation, no matter what is being said/yelled/accused at me--I know the point where nothing I say could possibly make it better, and I know the point where if I say anything, it will be destructive, not constructive. Be ready to just leave an awful interaction before you make it worse!

I personally set a boundary that any time she started telling me what I was feeling, I was not going to participate in that conversation. (I was personally triggered by this sort of projection... . I sometimes screamed something like "STOP TELLING ME WHAT I'M !#@$!@# THINKING"... . I don't recommend making the point that way but it was occasionally the best I could do lol )

Another part of that boundary was that I wouldn't argue with her about doing (or not doing) abstract things. I was open to requests to change specific behavior, but it had to be something concrete.

"Buy me a 2014 Lexus" is concrete, and you will both know whether you did it or not at the end of the day.

":)on't be cheap" is vague, and you can very easily have reasonable, honest, different opinions about whether something you did today was or wasn't being cheap.

A pwBPD can very easily change the 'rules' of any argument to make sure you lose, and often will. Don't play that game. You don't need to justify why, just refuse to participate in these no-win situations. She won't fight fair most of the time... . make your own rules of engagement to keep out of those fights.

Aside: If her spending is reckless (+$30k debt in one year sounds reckless), and if you bring in most of the money in the household (I think you do), you are in a position to enforce financial boundaries with her, to protect your financial health. The actions required for this are within your own realm of control.

In your case, I'd get verbal abuse boundary enforcement strong and well practiced before working on financial boundaries--because enforcing financial ones are very likely to trigger verbal abuse immediately! (Or perhaps I should say WW3?)

"That these accusations are not based in reality doesn't change her feelings"

WOW - does that ever hit the worst nail squarely and fiercely right on the head!

Thank you. Great reminder... .

It is hard because her mind is so often not in reality, and she literally wants to force everything into her non reality.  If she could just understand the simple concept of  "action a will result in result b" instead of "action a should result in nothing negative for myself"

Its hard cause she flies off the handle, and pisses soembody off, or loses something.  The result is unfair in her eyes and somehow my fault even when I was not there.  Bad things get ignored and the anger she feels is refocused onto something I have done wrong.   The anger is proporational to the situation that caused it so it is very often proporationally waaaay more than what I have done wrong

The other problem is that if say her family does something unloving, she accuses me of not being unloving.  All the wrongs of others are projected onto me as a reality even if there is no real evidence

You shouldn't validate the invalid.

If she says something is your fault when it is a natural consequence of her action, don't validate her blaming you.

If she gets lost in blaming/berating you, the situation is becoming abusive. Stop trying to validate and disengage from her.

Back to validation.


Try to validate her feelings--she really is upset about something bad that happened to her. That she is angry.

This sort of expression of validation for her feelings can work--And remember--Her feelings ARE real. And they are truly unpleasant to experience!

And no... . I didn't say it was easy. In fact, I don't consider myself very good at it, especially at the time I needed it. So cut yourself some slack if you don't do a great job of it some times... . or if it doesn't have the desired result some of the time.

People who care about you don't force you to choose between two things you care about.  So "You love your family more than me" is manipulative and an attempt to isolate.

This is so true. And, at least for me,  #3 really is the best option. But how HOW do we change our role in the r/s? By leaving? By responding differently? I'm new on this site, so maybe I haven't read enough. I'm right here with the rest of you though. And not sure what to do.

*welcome*

gettin-unstuck, I'm not going to recommend leaving the r/s (without hearing a lot more), although I do recommend leaving a toxic fight so both of you can spool down a bit...

So how to change? Stick around here and keep on posting more questions--you will get lots of input on what sort of changes you can make!

I'd recommend you go over to the "Staying" board and look around there. You will find a great deal in the Lessons (always in the sidebar when you are on that board). It is great stuff, and a lot of it--it will take a while to digest!

Then start a new topic on the Staying board (or this one if you feel more comfortable here). Pick something about your r/s that is driving you NUTS, describe it, and ask for input on what you can change.