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i do not get the projection and mirroring dynamics that is done by the BPDs and also nons during the idealization phase ? what was i projecting on her ? what was i mirroring in her ? what was she mirroring ? what was she projecting ?  was she mirroring me or the ideal woman i would like to be with ?

What you experienced throughout the relationship was your own self reflected back at you.  She was just a mirror you projected your own pride or fantasy onto her. Her experience was radically different than yours you were just a distraction to her.  What you were really bonding to was the idealized version of yourself you saw in her eyes that's why she felt like your soulmate.  All those moments where you soothed her activated your vulnerable narcissism and you felt an sense of pride when she was soothed conditioning you to maintain the fantasy. The illusion is that she the object you identify as the projection of your self is one and the same. You are not letting go of her she is already gone. You are reclaiming the part of yourself you think you lost wen you lost the object. You can already feel that part of yourself and it feels like a gaping hole in your chest you never lost that part of yourself though that is the illusion that is so painfull. Realizing all you thought was her was really you, it was your own projection, own it because that's just a part of you.

The pain is the conflict thinking you need the object to feel that part of you again. The pain is your body saying hey I'm right here HELLO! I AM RIGHT HERE.  Accept defeat and surrender to that feeling in your body. It is waiting for you

She would be mirroring you greatest desires, mirroring the other half of you to make you feel complete, so to you and I our other "halves" at the honeymoon period were nothing more than perfect in our eyes, sure, there prob were some red flags but we choose to ignore them or were so happy that we didn't notice them.

Projecting would I believe start appearing around the devaluation stage, she starts to project her weakness/fears/insecurities/low self esteem onto you, little by little you erode to dust.

I have come to understand that this "projection" stuff they spout out is little more than their inner thoughts/actions. For example anything my ex said to me regarding anything about me was in fact what she was thinking or feeling about herself.

Eg. All men are unfaithful really means, I am unfaithful.

I love you, means I love myself.

You're always …………... (insert any criticism you can think of) and they are usually talking about some related aspect of themselves, after all the LOVE talking about themselves!

All their insecurities they project onto you so they feel better and you feel unsure/confused and again your self esteem takes another dive, as long as they feel better that's all that simply matters to them, you certainly don't!

I do wonder how I became so so so blind to this and never noticed, suspect due to me having dropped all boundaries

It is so nice to see things for what they truly are now some time has passed.

Anything they seem to talk about to you, while you are listening, just think that they are in fact talking about themselves despite discussing someone else or you. I am convinced this is how they work.

blimbam i wrote this post because of reading your current reply in another post. i really do not get it. did she mirror my own self or did she mirror the ideal woman i would like to have in my dreams ?

the things i projected on to her. what does it say about me ?

I think she would have mirrored your own self, the things within you that you lack in order to feel complete, do we not all have these things? In so doing she (in your eyes) would then become the ideal woman, would she not?

I suspect we all projected our inner fears onto them. I recognized my situation was similar to a childhood situation, I saw this and guess I thought I could bring about a different outcome (as I had some semblance of control over the situation this time around) In my case I projected the needy little 6 year old that all he needed was love and reassurance. Why did i do this with this girl? Never done it with any others, maybe i saw perfection because in her I felt 100% complete?

She parroted some of your behaviors. But the main thing is the way she looked at you like you were the best thing that ever happened and any little thing you did was a miracle. This inspired in you the way you wish you saw yourself and encouraged a sense of pride.  You felt the pride as your own but it was the was she looked at you that inspired it.  You bonded to the pride she inspired in you.  She needed you to be prideful and you projected a sense of pride and she attached to that pride.  She just was an object that inspired pride in you and that is what fueled the fantasy you attached to.  You thought you were bonding to her and on some levels you were but it was her in the context of the prideful fantasy she inspired in you.  She was just a mirror a muse an object.  The bond that is hard to break is not to her it is to the idea you need her to feel that part of yourself.  But it just feels like her.  When you realize the memories of her are really all about you and it was your own projection and it came from you and it's still there. 

She just provided looking at you like your a god.  And the feeling you felt was your projection. But it came from you it is a part of you and when you look back it is what you are really remembering. 

Yeah, mine just placated to me, into oblivion at first. And I suppose I did somewhat too. And then our lies unraveled. Unfortunately she was almost all a lie and I was only partially a lie. This happens in all delusional love based relationships, it's just more extreme with BPD.

AJ, she mirrored behaviors she knew were attractive to you. She assessed you and gained a quick knowing of the man you are. Your character.  What you were missing within your self. What you love about life.  What you like to eat. Drink. Wear. How you sit. How you take your coffee.  What songs you like.  Your sexual appetite. 

BPDs are adapt at very quickly reading others.  They needed to perfect this skill very early on in life during the dysfunctional parenting with their likely BPD or NPD parent.  They had to quickly assess that parents mood and needs so they could become that child.  To try to get that unconditional love they yearned for. And never got.  They are repeating this very very function during idealization when they mirror us.  Who ever we are.  They will now be.  Can you recall times your ex may have taken her coffee " just like you" or loved the same foods. The same ideals in life.  Etc?  This is exactly why.

So we wont abandon them like their parent did. We are the parent they so desperately needed. They are becoming the perfect child all over again.

We are not projecting anything bad ON THEM. We are projecting the ideal parent, partner, best friend WE never really had in a someway unconscious way.  They " become" all of those ppl now. TO US.  THAT is the trauma bond now formed.

D/d is all about THEM projecting the punitive parents voice within them telling them all of the ways they are bad. Unlovable. Broken.  Not good enough.  Ugly. Deceitful.  Stupid. Unfaithful.  This is far too shameful for them to process. It always was. And bc they suppressed their emotional needs their entire lives they became " empty".  They never developed an identity of their own.  Why they fall " in love" so quickly. Each time thinking they are finding the " real love" of their life.   Why they say that all the time as adults.  "I felt so empty and alone until I met you."

You get too close after idealization. The reality in a logic r/s is that this is the time true intimacy is growing.  This scares the hell out of the abandoned child.  They never had that.  It threatens them and awakes that punitive parent inside full force.  They are replaying all those ugly projections deep within that kept them from being the perfect child.  The perfect child would have gotten that parents love if only they weren't stupid, ugly, etc.   This are far too much to continue to listen too. To relive in any way.  So they give them over to you now to carry.  After all, you are going to leave them, just like their parent, and all the others before you " left them."

And this is how they recreate the fact to fit THEIR emotion.  They hate you now because you are all those things they have always not only thought but truly believe they are.  Deep under all the repression you awoke.

Cared very much. You really made me empathize with them a lot. I mean, their inner world truly is hell. And sometimes they deny reality just long enough to find a shred of happiness. But the truth always gets them. I really feel sorry for my ex. I hope she gets help someday, but I doubt it.

Wow cared that is so well put!   It makes so much sense.   I guess I was putting my focus on what it is we attach to.  What kind of helped me stop seeing her as my soulmate.  

I remember times I saw her change masks it was so weird.  

I think the focus on letting go of my ex kept me stuck on her even more.  

Building, their inner world is hell.  We think its all gone and all better bc they so quickly found someone else who we believe is better than we were.  Now they are truly happy. It was us that was the problem.

Nothing could be further from the truth.  My post is exactly the inner hell they relive over and over.  Why do you think they have such high suicide rates. 

We know we are fully detaching when we can fully empathize. See our role in all of it.  And fully realize the depth of the work that they would have to do to " get better."  Rarely happens.

All this talk of suicide has me worried. I did something crappy and sent like 10000 facebook messages to my ex about a year ago. Decoding her and our relationship. I hope she never kills herself over it. Never would have imagined myself doing so many crappy things before I was with her. But I gotta be honest, I've hurt a lot of people because of how toxic my relationship was with her. I became so freaking neurotic and devoid of trust and hope.

You've already been given lots insights.

My understanding of the mirroring phase is;

BPD's lack a defined or consistent sense of self so they are constantly seeking this in others.

When they find a suitable partner / host they attach to us in a desperate attempt to share our sense of self.  They do this by mirroring back an idealised image of our self image - how we want the world see is (false self). Strong, loyal, clever, capable

Whatever qualities we most value and want to project.

For many of us this idealised self, or false self was a coping mechanism or armour that we developed to protect ourselves from childhood injury and vulnerability.

It's not to say that we may not have any of these qualities but for a while BPDs almost embrue them and us with a divine fire of perfection.

For us (and there are reasons why we end up these relationships) this mirroring / idealisation of how we want the world to see us (not how we actually are) is incredibly powerful and addictive

Depending on our narcissistic traits we not only feel that we've finally met someone who can see us for who we really are (or want to be)  - we feel that we're even better than we ever imagined.

Either way this mirroring fills a deep need or emptiness in us.

But it's not real

Eventually when the relationship deteriorates, and it always does  (engulfment, fear of abandonment, unstable sense of self and all the other dynamics which define a relationship with BPD) they began to devalue us.

And this glorious reflection of our idealised self (which was never real) begins to crack. 

Blim, they can only hold that mask up for too long during idealization.  Its too heavy after a while.  And we are getting too close.  This is the trigger that initiates the d/d.  The d/d behaviors hurt US as we are now trauma bonded to our own idealized parent, partner, best friend wrapped all in one in our " soulmate" triggering our then reactions to hold onto that which we so desperately wanted in our core child . And never got. We are holding on for dear life to our idealized parent, partner, best friend " soulmate" who was never real.

We are trauma bonded and left in TRAUMA BETRAYAL to a fantasy.  That we DESPERATELY not only want back.  Now that we "FINALLY  found it "  in our " soulmate". We NEED it back. Its now mothers milk.  We are now becoming not only the lonely child in our core, we are truly becoming the abandoned child now too. 

If we don't take the time to reverse the effort of being the forever victim of this interaction and only concentrate on ruminating on all of our present hurt from the end of the BPD r/a we will indeed repeat the pattern. We will indeed attract another who needs rescuing.  We will indeed attempt to rescue and rewrite the ending with another emotionally unavailable partner we cannot fix. We will continue to put the effort into the why me? Again? And forever stay stuck feeling attracted to those very same partners who appeal to us with the very same inner needs.

And end up feeling just like we have while here.

That does not only resonate with me. I felt an earthquake inside while reading this

Blimblam so what do you think about this ? The part of me that she has mirrored and made me feel proud. Was that the false self or was that really good characteristics in me that i could not see because of lack of confidence and self assurance ?

This is an interesting discussion.

For me the hard thing is to redirect my focus on myself.

I would say we both wore masks

Ours was the idealised self that we built up and presented to the world long before we ever met our respective BPDs

Where did our idealised self come from? Why did we need it? And what's underneath

I don't think our false self is the product of pride. It's a reaction to injury

It's body armour, a shield, a coping mechanism that we've created to protect some deep wound or injury to our vulnerable real self.

And we built it block by block to try and make the others love and accept us and protect us from further injury

But if you build a wall around yourself it's hard to see out. And deep down in us, the deep longing for love and acceptance for our true selves is still unanswered.

When a BPD mirrors and idealises our false self it's like someone throwing a match at bonfire soaked in gas

Miraculously, probably for the first time in our lives it feels like our wound has been healed and for a while our deep longing for love and acceptance appears to be filled.

It's not their fault. They're probably more damaged than we are but neither of us was healthy to begin with. You don't end up in relationship with BPD by accident

This all is correct Reforming. The BPD causes a great deal of destruction and pain as result of their patterns.   We can use the experience as the learning tool it should be for those of us here, stay a victim, go back for more, repeat it again, or chose to make this traumatic experience as the turning point to rewind our lives and do it better moving forward. 

Two quick questions about this. This is an insightful discussion... .

1) I didn't have much of an identity when she came along. My marriage to my previous partner just ended (13 year relationship) and my whole world was obliterated. I was literally trying new hobbies, foods, clothing... .trying to piece together some semblance of a person again. I guess it would be an exaggeration to say I had no identity. I'm sure some of my inherent values remained intact. But she had her work cut out for her to mirror whatever I was at that time.

It makes me want to say to her, "I want you to understand... .this lack of identity you feel inside. It's not real. Because I had no identity when you came along. You created me and brought out all of the amazing qualities and characteristics that everybody else sees and comments on all the time. That wasn't me. That was you. Take ownership and pride over who you are because without you, this "great person" I am, wouldn't exist."

I suppose it would have no effect.

2) What happens when two people with BPD end up in a relationship other than the apocalypse? How can they each mirror what doesn't exist in the other?

a healthy person has self love, self acceptance,... .etc but a "good" (at least appears so initially) relationship still feels good. thats why people get into relationships and marriage. there is an instinct to love and be loved, to be understood and have somebody to feel compassionate about you.

would not a healthy person like the idealization phase (the acceptance and love and feeling that you are being totally understood) apart from the red flags ?

Wow, I have missed a great thread this afternoon. I relate to so much of what you say Reforming and CaredveryMuch, a great post.

I felt normal before I had a relationship with my ex, can't sat as I had any other bad relationships apart from one other who was Bi-polar with a drug issue. I must say I was taken in by it all hook line and sinker.

The things I didn't notice at the time that I see now are:

The speed of it all, she'd moved in after 2 months  red-flag

She only finished with her ex(9 month relationship) 2 weeks before we first went out  red-flag

We started having unprotected sex as we both wished to have children  red-flag

I was deliriously happy  red-flag

Instead of a relationship she wanted just FWB until I put my foot down  red-flag

The list goes on but I IGNORED them all and the outcome we all know!

Maybe a more balanced individual without issues would notice these issues and stick solidly to their boundaries and as such would never have had a relationship with such a person.

Hi antony It's a good  question.

A healthy person would be self aware enough and accepting of who they really are to recognise that the idealised reflection was too good to be true and wasn't real.

I've got friends who began relationships where they were immediately put on pedestal but who quickly sensed something askew, unhealthy about the attachment.

Their reality testing skills told them that the person who this potential partner was reflecting / falling in love wasn't really them.

And as soon as the typical red flags appeared they walked away

I'm not saying this to criticise NONs (I don't like that term) but to help myself and others acknowledge our own vulnerability to these attachments.

I was drawn to that idealisation. For the first time in my life I truly felt blessed and accepted. 

Now I working to learn to love who I really am, warts and all.

aj , I have just had to log in as my ex BPD contacted me recently & I still get support/reassurance here.  Read the responses to your post ... .they are spot on |iiii  

well my interaction with my ex did not last long. all in all it lasted 5 weeks. but i ignored the red flags. i moved in with her after one week. i received a gift from her after 8 days. i had unprotected sex with her the second or the third time. i told her "i love you" too early.  i left her after 6 days of devaluation and crazy making. i did not take her crap. i did not normalize the abuse but i loved the honeymoon phase. i felt revived (like nothing before in my life) during the idealization phase and i mourned this short interaction for long. most of the comments here resonates a lot so i am not healthy as i should be. i acknowledge now that i did not love myself enough and i took pride in her idealization of me. i am digging deep to find out why i was not self loving and accepting myself in the past. why did i numb and dissociate from my feelings ? every time foo comes up i feel clueless. i was not significantly abused as a child that i can spot on. maybe subtly. i mean my parents did the best they knew of but they were hard on me. my dad was not compassionate. he does not seek to talk to me or validate anything i am feeling. my mom is over protective because she "loves" me.

Lost, it sounds like you were going through a difficult time when you met your pBPD.  A break up of a marriage takes time  to recover from. Keeping busy and trying new things is all part of the rediscovery of single life and fun.  But maybe you hadn't been promoted by your break up or really any other time in life to look inward instead outward for an our identity.  I was guilty of this when I met my pBPD.  I was doing all those things you were. But didnt have a need to look deep inside.  Likely none of us did before the BPD destruction.

Would you say we may have been vulnerable as such? Willing to yolk within all that idealization while ignoring some of the red flags to recreate a new ending than the one before? I can see this now for me. Retrospectively.  I couldn't see it then.

Two BPDs in a r/s would likely end the same way our situation did.  The BPD has no identity and clings fearing abandonment.  They need someone to give them that identity. Perhaps why their unions with NPDs fit together well.  The NPD controls and never gets too close to the BPD intimately having her own issues with that.  The BPD constantly feeds into the NPDs  control and need for adoration in a never ending attempt to keep a sense of identity and security. Its as unhealthy of a r/s as any other but somewhat safe as both feed into one another's insecurities and avoid true intimacy.

Regardless, the BPD will never have healthy interpersonal r/s with anyone without the desire and full commitment of a lot of core work.

.

AJ i read somewhere the following.  When we had an emotionally absent parent we got used to looking for validation in a source that couldn't provide it.  So we unconsciously then began looking for that missing love and validation in others. We unconsciously were attracted to partners who needed fixing.  Because we felt we could provide that fixing to our emotionally unavailable partner and recreate the ending to the loss we got used.   Does that make any sense? I still think about this.  It really has helped me understand a great deal.

Well I think it was a part of you taken out of context.  It feels like the missig piece of the puzzle for many of is because we had insecurities.  Even npds have insecurities deep down so the borderline  inspires our pride and self worth in us and we repress our own fears and parts of ourself that are inconsistent with what we want to see in the interaction.  I think that is why we ignore the red flags.  

In our interaction with them we become conditioned to repress our fears because it feels so good to become the role they want for us as a sort of parent figure so we have to be strong and consistant and lead the way.  And we like to see ourselves in this way.  

A big part of the pattern I realized was the is repressing our own fears to fill that role they want us to fill while we feel needed and also to be consistant with the way we like to see ourselves in their eyes.  In order to achieve all of this we have to lie to ourselves.

I kind if stopped thinking about it in terms of false self and true self and more in terms of the pride she inspired in me

And how pride has the potential to blind people.  

And how how what the missing price she inspired in me is not gone and I don't need her to feel it again it is just a part of me.  All the pain is an illusion. 

The illusion is that she the object I projected the idea of myself onto are one and the same. That when I lost her I lost that part of myself.  So what I was really experiencing most of the relationship was really my own projection it was an illusion a fantasy. I was experiencing a part of my self she inspired to create so she could attach to it. 

I'm not trying to let go of her at all and I couldn't do it because that would mean to loose that part of myself. 

She's not who I thought she was and what i experienced as her that I yearn for is my own projection my own fantasy the missing piece it was me the whole time but just a part of me.

I think a "healthy person" would be more wary of the red flags and wouldn't be overpowered by the idealization.  I know in my case my ex had numerous red flags, and when she told me early in the relationship that she "loved me" (a feeling I did not reciprocate at the time), I thought uh oh, I should probably get out of this.  But, I was so intoxicated by the idealization that I decided it was reasonable to stick with her anyway.  Of course by the end I had "fallen in love" and she had split me black. 

Let me put it this way: I have been in relationships before with healthy women who told me they loved me, and I have said to them that I did not reciprocate and that it probably wasn't fair to them to stay together.  And they have agreed.  On the face of it, the situation with my ex was no different, so if I was truly "healthy" I should have treated it like all of those other cases.  But I got drunk on the idealization.

I've noticed that a lot of people here are very wary of being labeled as "unhealthy," and I suppose that word does carry some pretty negative connotations.  Maybe a better way to put it is that we were "vulnerable" or "at risk" with respect to this type of relationship, and we need to figure out what these vulnerabilities are.  It really isn't the case that everyone is vulnerable to entering into an emotionally intimate relationship with a clearly fragile/broken person with a ton of red flags.  I don't think there's anything "wrong" with the fact that we were, but it certainly merits investigation. 

Backnthesaddle

I don't like the healthy unhealthy either it is too black and white


I think it is more about ballance.  And how when we feel we need somone else to validate our experience this is out of ballance and wen things are out of ballance we are often in denial of it. And our pride covers our denial In a fancy presentation so nobody knows not even us.

Yes I would agree with you.  Part of the reason that idealization is so intoxicating to us is that we NEED it.  If we did not, then it wouldn't prevent us from evaluating the relationship objectively. 

And of course the mirroring has a way of obscuring for us the fact that we need it.  We say "yeah, I really am this great!" and mistake this for self-confidence, when what it really is is a display of our need for validation. 

Exactly!

And it is our pride that blinds us to the fact that it a red flag. And we slowly are conditioned I this behavior throughout the relationship.  

That's why they call us needy. Because we feel like we need them to validate ourselves in this way and when they are inconsistent with our own fantasy of them as an object that we mistake as that part of ourselves that internalizes self validation. We put pressure on them to get back inline with the way we want to see them and they see us as controlling.  

A lot of the devaluing is actually just them telling us our fantasy of who they are isn't real and in our denial we don't accept that and pressure them to continue in that role and that pisses them off and they up the ante thinking we are so dumb that we can't see it.

I agree. I will say that I told my ex early in our r/a that what I loved about her was how good she made me feel about myself, which should have been a red flag for me (why did I need her to feel good about myself? Why didn't I feel good already). When she stopped doing that and I noted it, I was accused of being needy or overbearing. But, of course, I was ALWAYS needy. It just wasn't as obvious when I was being constantly adored that I NEEDED to be constantly adored.

There you go Reforming and again, so insightful and true.  When something "feels" to good to be true. It is. I bet you all can recall that little old feeling that we all ignored saying this is a little too much like a fairy tale.

I've used this experience that I am still in the final stages of detaching from to educate me. Along with all the work I have done. If you can't really pick up on the red flags, trust that little part of you inside saying this doesn't feel quite right. I think most of us by now are able to pick up on a lot of red flags going forward.

When we know better, we do better. Warts and all.

At the same time though we got to that level by them convincing us to commit to it on that level. Which I think in that moment they honestly believe and they just forget.

In skips article about the 10 things or whatever he lays down all the clues right there. It just takes a bunch of analyzing our part to understand it.

This is true.  The last thing we need after recovering from the trauma is to embrace the fact WE may be unhealthy too  :). 

How bout this instead. I choose to do better now that I know better. I choose to look at myself differently now. I choose to take the information and support of everyone here and say. Hmmm, maybe I can see why this might have occurred. I choose to use my energy for myself now. I choose to see why support groups work. And I choose to use all of that support. For me. No one else.

But something must always be remembered.  As analytical as this discussion is, we should remember one important thing. No one is perfect. Perfect people exist only on tv.  All the behaviors of the pBPD are unconscious. They are not actively out there seeking prey. Saying wow I want to do that all again to someone. There is no tape playing loudly in their heads or ours saying all these words and analogies.

They truly were in love with us. That love was as real as it ever could be for someone with their d/o. I believe this.  Our love triggered their deeply rooted disorder.  And we loved them. That was very real too.  So, reframing it that way might be a bit more helpful.

Dont get me wrong with what i am going to say. I am not writing here to deny anything. I have my own issues and i carry them over my head. All you said is true. The ex started by being needy and then we said its ok to be needy as long as it is mutual. Then during the devaluation they stopped being needy and you wondered why the hell do you feel that needy. I know that a "healthy" person would not be needy even if the ex did give signs of its ok to be so. I get that most of us have their own issues. But i find a big contributing factor in this was their welcomeness, seduction, charming attitude. The other exs in your life did not show that amount of vulnerabilty and openness and thats why we did not act needy with them. Its their idealization that was a catalyst to enable us to discover and see our own traits.

My therapist (whom i am very skeptical about his judgment) says that there is not nothing wrong with me and that "anyone" can fall for BPDs seduction. I am not 100% with or against his words. I acknowledge our need for the idealization phase. But also they way they represent themselves makes the partner to open up. The idealization phase is like going on vacation or doing any activity to unwind. We carry out own buried issues but i think their welcoming nature makes us exaggerate what we were doing.

Cared I agree so much

It is so confusing because the BPD person emotions are fleeting and their current state is seen as how they really always felt.

I think it is not so much about healthy unhealthy as it is about pride and eventually being blinded by it.  We all have pride and it can blind any of us

Whatever it is called. Lets call it pride. Though we should already be proud of who we are without the validation of a partner. Do not all people feel proud and good from people praising their good traits? You should be proud by default (which is not the case for most members here including me) but wont this extra pride projected on you feel good ?

We have our issues. They have their issues. But i am thinking that they exaggerated and catalyzed our false pride. It was there (false pride) we had long before they appeared and they activated it. But they did not only activate it, they exaggerated it. And in the aftermath this exaggeration is the same but with the negative sign

We have the issues. But i think we make it overwhelming in the aftermath because of this exaggeration during the idealization phase. As much as they put you on pedestal with this pride, yet in the aftermath we are too unproud of who we are and we are very hard on ourselves. I tend to believe that the truth is somewhere in between

Ok let's frame it differently

The inspire in us a certain confidence whatever we felt was missing that we found when we looked into their eyes.  In that way they objectify themself so they can attach to us.  The attachment is the feeling like we need them to feel what was missing in our minds they become that part of us they become that part of our identity.  But this is the illusion.

And this is why the when they leave we felt like we lost a huge part of ourself.

Listen, there is no shame in being needy. People who truly love us are concerned about our needs. People with BPD DO feel shame about their neediness, and they project that shame onto us. It's all very confusing and very damaging. The thing to think about in the aftermath is not "what's wrong with me that I'm so needy," because nothing is wrong with you. The question is more can you find other ways to have these needs met than with this overwhelming idealization.

For me I sort of had the realization that they showed me what I thought was missing that I needed but the illusion was identifying that as my ex as an object that is that.  But it was really just a part of me and I had it the entire time I just thought it was hiding from me because no one showed it to me earlier in life.  But in her eyes I found it in myself. 

We found it! Now we just have to reclaim it.

I wasn't detaching from her I was just realizing that was me the entire time.

The main issue with the mirroring and projecting with the borderline the conflict is this:

We are looking for something within and we see it in our reflection of the eyes of the borderline. We think we need her to know this part of ourself. We don't and that was just a metaphor for the real thing.  It is within it's inside the gaping hole you feel in your heart.  We can't think our way to it.  Just accepting defeat and surrender to that feeling keep on feeling it and whatever may come untill you find peace within the emptiness.  It's there waiting for you and it always has been.

Lively discussion which is great.

I do appreciate that when we emerge from the debris of these relationships we need to express our anger, our hurt and our grief.

We need to be heard by others who understand our pain. |iiii

And this site, community is brilliant for this.  |iiii

I also think that there is a point, when if we want to move on, we need to shift our focus onto ourselves.

I realise that the words unhealthy, ill can be triggers for us but, we use these freely to describe our exes. They may be disordered but were we really healthy ourselves?

Speaking for myself, I ignored my gut instincts, warnings from others and numerous red flags to commit to a relationship that was profoundly unhealthy.

I know how seductive their idealisation can be but if I'm honest part of me knew that it was unnatural, unreal and almost suffocating.

I wasn't forced at gun point I stayed, even when things deteriorated

I could walked away at any point

I didn't.

And despite growing evidence that my ex has serious issues that she was never willing to confront I stayed.

I wasn't healthy enough to step away

Instead I focussed on my ex's issues rather than healing myself.

Her destruction of my idealised self, revealed the weaknesses that I was trying to hide.

Shyness, anxiety, fear, sensitivity, uncertainty and a lot of self loathing

It hurt like hell but now that I've come through the anger, grief and depression I'm actually glad because I feel like I'm finally facing up to myself

It's humbled me and made me more honest about the real me but it's also freed me to rebuild myself with much healthier foundations.

I'm not perfect but I'm learning to stop hiding the real me and become much accepting of who I am.

Reforming, that was so extremely well put.

Exactly what I did.

I was actually so cautious of the way she acted that I didn't even want to date her, but she sort of pushed it on me and I got hooked, yet I was still extremely cautious and have no clue why I didn't leave.

It definitely opens our eyes to our true self though. Its helping me figure myself a lot more. Which is something I really need. I've never been able to define who I am, not even close.

Reforming

I can really relate to ignoring gut instincts and continuing to subject myself to abuse while being in denial.

I agree it is important to take responsibilities on our own behavior and learn our own unhealthy patterNs and it may trigger some. 

I can sense in Aj a sense of urgency like being hard on himself.  I definately can relate to that in trying to figure it out. 

I had to reframe the idea of unhealthy and boundaries for myself as being true to myself in creating the space I need to heal and make my transformation and just accept where I am in my journey no matter what anyone thinks not even myself. 

My case is consuming my mind.

I did not tolerate her behavior. I was out after 6 days of devaluation. I did not normalize her abuse nor did i ignore or accept it. I broke up with her. At least i know that i am ok regarding this point.

The problem lied (not anymore really but i am curious why) in the longing for the fantasy, missing the isealization phase and grieving a person that i made up in my mind (not her but who i think she was).

There lies the problem. I am having this questions and needing their answers. Yes blimblam i am hard on myself but trying to train my self not to.

Blimbaum I don't mean to judge anyone else and I understand our need for comfort and validation.

For quite a while I was resistant to accepting my own issues. Despite some dark moments I saw my FOO and childhood as fundamentally healthy  

I said as much in my early posts, rejecting that I idea that I might have been codependent and ripe territory for this type of relationship  

But when I began to honestly reexamine it with a T and then on my own I realised that it wasn't true.  :'(

Acceptance of this has taken time and it's been tinged with sadness but it's made me reframe my sense of self in a healthier way :light:

Eagle my ex used to say that I was very cautious and wary at the start of our relationship. That she fell in love first and much quicker than I. My gut told me that there was something wrong

Later on in our relationship she repeatedly said that we both had issues. She was right  

I lacked a clear sense of myself, I had narcissistic tendencies - the belief that I had the power and the right to fix her. She didn't want to be fixed but neither did I

I think real self knowledge, defining or redefining who you are, your sense of self is absolutely key to healing.

Without a clearly defined sense of self it's almost impossible to be self directed and have healthy boundaries.

It's a bit like sitting in a boat the you can't really sail and just drifting along.

If you know who you are and are self directed, if you have a clear sense of purpose and healthy values. Then you have the awareness and skills to try and avoid the storms and unhealthy relationships.

I'm currently training in a rowing boat but soon I'm hoping to move up to a dingy  :). And after that who knows, yacht, cruiser...

antony

It sounds like you were self aware enough to withdraw quickly. That's good

We all know how these relationships can touch us like a drug.

It sounds like she answered some deep need of yours. I don't know your history but it can be hard if not impossible to explore our FOO objectively.

Are you seeing a T?

antony I think Cared's comment about emotionally absent fathers is spot on.

My father was very emotionally absent throughout my childhood but for years I never really recognised it

I didn't know any better

I wanted my father to love me and I wanted to love him so I denied it.

Therapy helped become more aware and now when I look at my siblings I realise that his absence or disconnection has left a big mark on all of us.

Emotionally present, connected fathers who actively parent are hugely important in our healthy development and long term happiness.

I came across this online a while back

www.webmd.com/men/features/dads-impact-on-career

Google father hunger if you get the chance

Aj

I'm glad to hear you are working on not being hard on yourself.  For me this focus has been pretty complex and seems to be a core issue. It has even been paradoxical at times.  Focusing on it though has put most of my interaction with my ex into perspective. When I focused on detaching it really didn't help me detach it kept me stuck. 

This was the case as well.  She used to say often how she "pushed" me into the relationship.  I suppose anyone is susceptible to the seduction to some degree.  But of course, had I been able to establish firm boundaries, I would not have been pushed. 

I've been reading about this this morning.  If anyone has any additional resources with regards to this concept, they would be much appreciated.  My father was physically absent since the time of my infancy; indeed I never met him.  I found out in adulthood that he stayed with his third wife (the one after my mother) and raised three daughters with her.  His third wife forced him to tell his daughters about my existence when the oldest was 10 or 11; even then, he raised the possibility that I was not his.  I now actually have a very good relationship with the oldest, who tracked me down in adulthood.  But, it goes without saying: this process has not left me without scars. 

Now i am by the sea alone and reading a book that i have owned for years but really did not have the courage to read it. It is called negaholics how to overcome negativity and turn your life around. Guess what is the second chapter is talking about ? Negativity and where it originated foo. The book address the 7 common characteristics of a dysfunctional family. The characteristics sounds to be very common in our world. I wonder how much dysfunctional families are there on this planet ? I began to monitor my parents' behaviors. I think my siblings are getting a portion of what i am getting. Sonce i am the elder i really want to talk to my siblings validate them and tell hom that they can come and talk to me about anything they desire.

My therapist is not working for me. He is demonizing my ex only. I think i will schedule an appointment with a new therapist.

This experience is so liberating. It feels good to begin to put your fingers on the reason for that void and emptyness you have been feeling all your life even during your supposed to be happiest moments. I have to depersonalize my childhood bringing as much as i depersonalized my experience with my ex. Anyone who was brought up by my parents would have turned out to be like me. I also have to remember that they have tried their best. They have just passed the way of parenting as did my grand parents. Its like passing down the china, the jewlery and anything "valuable" from a generation to the next. We were granted this chance of the BPD experience to break the cycle thrpugh generations. I really recommend the book that i have mentioned. The words are very simple, informative and understanding. Also spot on and resonates much.

And btw the book addresses this perfectly. Your dysfunctional family does not have to be stereotypical like the drunk dad who rages or the divorced parents or the dad that abandoned the family very early during childhood. As i said the 7 characteristics sound to be common in millions of families in this world. It needs some objectivity to analyze it.

Hi Antony and backnthsaddle

It sounds like an interesting read. I think that FOO issues stretch way beyond the most extreme examples.

The article which I read quoted two psychologist who made interesting points on the impact of absent fathers

The Father Factor: How Your Father's Legacy Impacts Your Career (written by  Stephan B. Poulter, PhD). WebMD talked with Poulter, a former police officer who for 24 years has been a clinical psychologist specializing in family relationships, and two other experts about the influence fathers have on careers.

According to legacy comes from the "father factor," or the type of fathering a son or daughter receives. While dads can exhibit a combination of styles, Poulter says one will dominate. He categorizes these styles as Superachiever, Time Bomb, Passive, Absent, and Compassionate/Mentor.

Absent. When a father is physically or emotionally absent, it gets translated into rejection. "Kids are wired for both parents to love them," says Poulter, who describes his own father as emotionally distant. Poulter tells WebMD that absent fathers are the glue that holds juvenile gangs together, and he believes they're also responsible for widespread depression among Generation X. In the workplace, the child may have problems with authority figures, especially male bosses, and direct anger toward co-workers. Poulter offers action steps for healing the anger, which include recognizing that the absent father's legacy carries positive as well as negative influence.

Brian A. Schwartz, PhD, is a psychologist who applies a psychohistorical approach to career planning. Having counseled more than 1,700 clients, he says almost all of them fail to understand how their fathers influenced their career success, failure, or satisfaction.

"Regarding Dad's role, he believes the emotionally absent father does the most damage. "Emotionally, the children keep going back to a well that is empty."

I found this other article online

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/co-parenting-after-divorce/201205/father-absence-father-deficit-father-hunger

I personally take all of my exes messages and for everything he says "you" about, I substitute "I" then I can see where he's really coming from.  It's eye opening.

I'd never heard of projection before, but now I can understand what my uxBPD really meant when she said certain baffling things to me. It's like I have learned a new language, which is often translated into plain english simply be replacing "you" with "I" or "me" :)

So many of the things she said, make perfect sense now.

"You treat me very badly!" = "I treat you very badly!"

"You don't think I'm anything special - any person would do!" = "I don't think you are anything special - any person would do!"

"You don't care about how I feel!" = "I don't care about how you feel!"

"You are going to cheat on me one day!" = "I am going to cheat on you one day!"

"Most women have a personality disorder!" = "I have a personality disorder!"

"You could just abandon me at any time and erase me from your life - that's the kind of guy you are!" = "I could just abandon you at any time and erase you from my life - that's the kind of woman I am!"

This conversation is helping my understanding so much!  I definitely had to come to grips over the last year with my projected self vs. my REAL self... .I didn't realize I had been hiding so much beneath an exterior of what I wanted to be and what I wanted others to think I was... .God has been faithful to reach beneath the shell and start peeling all those fake layers away... .to reveal what I really am, and allow me to actually start pursuing becoming better and better FOR REAL!  Add a uBPDh to the mix, and it has been a very long, chaotic journey!  I do trust though, that everything happens for a reason, and I AM GOING TO BE better and stronger for it, in the long run, by God's grace! 

Thank you all for sharing your insights! <><

Brilliantly stated. I want to learn the lesson this time around... .

This is stated so well!  Excellent way to put things!  This topic, and all of these insights are soo helpful today!

What an EXCELLENT WAY to look at this... .I am going to adopt this.  Now, not only do I want to change for myself and my kids, but the understanding of completely breaking an entire generational cycle is amazing... .What a privilege and opportunity to change my family and generations to come for GOOD! 

Thanks for sharing!  <><