i do not understand the projection and mirroring

[BacknthSaddle]

Yes I would agree with you.  Part of the reason that idealization is so intoxicating to us is that we NEED it.  If we did not, then it wouldn't prevent us from evaluating the relationship objectively. 

And of course the mirroring has a way of obscuring for us the fact that we need it.  We say "yeah, I really am this great!" and mistake this for self-confidence, when what it really is is a display of our need for validation. 

[Blimblam]

Exactly!

And it is our pride that blinds us to the fact that it a red flag. And we slowly are conditioned I this behavior throughout the relationship.  

That's why they call us needy. Because we feel like we need them to validate ourselves in this way and when they are inconsistent with our own fantasy of them as an object that we mistake as that part of ourselves that internalizes self validation. We put pressure on them to get back inline with the way we want to see them and they see us as controlling.  

A lot of the devaluing is actually just them telling us our fantasy of who they are isn't real and in our denial we don't accept that and pressure them to continue in that role and that pisses them off and they up the ante thinking we are so dumb that we can't see it.

[BacknthSaddle]

I agree. I will say that I told my ex early in our r/a that what I loved about her was how good she made me feel about myself, which should have been a red flag for me (why did I need her to feel good about myself? Why didn't I feel good already). When she stopped doing that and I noted it, I was accused of being needy or overbearing. But, of course, I was ALWAYS needy. It just wasn't as obvious when I was being constantly adored that I NEEDED to be constantly adored.

[Caredverymuch]

Hi antony It's a good  question.

A healthy person would be self aware enough and accepting of who they really are to recognise that the idealised reflection was too good to be true and wasn't real.

I've got friends who began relationships where they were immediately put on pedestal but who quickly sensed something askew, unhealthy about the attachment.

Their reality testing skills told them that the person who this potential partner was reflecting / falling in love wasn't really them.

And as soon as the typical red flags appeared they walked away

I'm not saying this to criticise NONs (I don't like that term) but to help myself and others acknowledge our own vulnerability to these attachments.

I was drawn to that idealisation. For the first time in my life I truly felt blessed and accepted. 

Now I working to learn to love who I really am, warts and all.

There you go Reforming and again, so insightful and true.  When something "feels" to good to be true. It is. I bet you all can recall that little old feeling that we all ignored saying this is a little too much like a fairy tale.

I've used this experience that I am still in the final stages of detaching from to educate me. Along with all the work I have done. If you can't really pick up on the red flags, trust that little part of you inside saying this doesn't feel quite right. I think most of us by now are able to pick up on a lot of red flags going forward.

When we know better, we do better. Warts and all.

[Blimblam]

I agree. I will say that I told my ex early in our r/a that what I loved about her was how good she made me feel about myself, which should have been a red flag for me (why did I need her to feel good about myself? Why didn't I feel good already). When she stopped doing that and I noted it, I was accused of being needy or overbearing. But, of course, I was ALWAYS needy. It just wasn't as obvious when I was being constantly adored that I NEEDED to be constantly adored.

At the same time though we got to that level by them convincing us to commit to it on that level. Which I think in that moment they honestly believe and they just forget.

In skips article about the 10 things or whatever he lays down all the clues right there. It just takes a bunch of analyzing our part to understand it.

[Caredverymuch]

You don't end up in relationship with BPD by accident

would not a healthy person like the idealization phase (the acceptance and love and feeling that you are being totally understood) apart from the red flags ?

I think a "healthy person" would be more wary of the red flags and wouldn't be overpowered by the idealization.  I know in my case my ex had numerous red flags, and when she told me early in the relationship that she "loved me" (a feeling I did not reciprocate at the time), I thought uh oh, I should probably get out of this.  But, I was so intoxicated by the idealization that I decided it was reasonable to stick with her anyway.  Of course by the end I had "fallen in love" and she had split me black. 

Let me put it this way: I have been in relationships before with healthy women who told me they loved me, and I have said to them that I did not reciprocate and that it probably wasn't fair to them to stay together.  And they have agreed.  On the face of it, the situation with my ex was no different, so if I was truly "healthy" I should have treated it like all of those other cases.  But I got drunk on the idealization.

I've noticed that a lot of people here are very wary of being labeled as "unhealthy," and I suppose that word does carry some pretty negative connotations.  Maybe a better way to put it is that we were "vulnerable" or "at risk" with respect to this type of relationship, and we need to figure out what these vulnerabilities are.  It really isn't the case that everyone is vulnerable to entering into an emotionally intimate relationship with a clearly fragile/broken person with a ton of red flags.  I don't think there's anything "wrong" with the fact that we were, but it certainly merits investigation. 

This is true.  The last thing we need after recovering from the trauma is to embrace the fact WE may be unhealthy too  . 

How bout this instead. I choose to do better now that I know better. I choose to look at myself differently now. I choose to take the information and support of everyone here and say. Hmmm, maybe I can see why this might have occurred. I choose to use my energy for myself now. I choose to see why support groups work. And I choose to use all of that support. For me. No one else.

But something must always be remembered.  As analytical as this discussion is, we should remember one important thing. No one is perfect. Perfect people exist only on tv.  All the behaviors of the pBPD are unconscious. They are not actively out there seeking prey. Saying wow I want to do that all again to someone. There is no tape playing loudly in their heads or ours saying all these words and analogies.

They truly were in love with us. That love was as real as it ever could be for someone with their d/o. I believe this.  Our love triggered their deeply rooted disorder.  And we loved them. That was very real too.  So, reframing it that way might be a bit more helpful.

[antjs]

Dont get me wrong with what i am going to say. I am not writing here to deny anything. I have my own issues and i carry them over my head. All you said is true. The ex started by being needy and then we said its ok to be needy as long as it is mutual. Then during the devaluation they stopped being needy and you wondered why the hell do you feel that needy. I know that a "healthy" person would not be needy even if the ex did give signs of its ok to be so. I get that most of us have their own issues. But i find a big contributing factor in this was their welcomeness, seduction, charming attitude. The other exs in your life did not show that amount of vulnerabilty and openness and thats why we did not act needy with them. Its their idealization that was a catalyst to enable us to discover and see our own traits.

My therapist (whom i am very skeptical about his judgment) says that there is not nothing wrong with me and that "anyone" can fall for BPDs seduction. I am not 100% with or against his words. I acknowledge our need for the idealization phase. But also they way they represent themselves makes the partner to open up. The idealization phase is like going on vacation or doing any activity to unwind. We carry out own buried issues but i think their welcoming nature makes us exaggerate what we were doing.

[Blimblam]

Cared I agree so much

It is so confusing because the BPD person emotions are fleeting and their current state is seen as how they really always felt.

[Blimblam]

Dont get me wrong with what i am going to say. I am not writing here to deny anything. I have my own issues and i carry them over my head. All you said is true. The ex started by being needy and then we said its ok to be needy as long as it is mutual. Then during the devaluation they stopped being needy and you wondered why the hell do you feel that needy. I know that a "healthy" person would not be needy even if the ex did give signs of its ok to be so. I get that most of us have their own issues. But i find a big contributing factor in this was their welcomeness, seduction, charming attitude. The other exs in your life did not show that amount of vulnerabilty and openness and thats why we did not act needy with them. Its their idealization that was a catalyst to enable us to discover and see our own traits.


My therapist (whom i am very skeptical about his judgment) says that there is not nothing wrong with me and that "anyone" can fall for BPDs seduction. I am not 100% with or against his words. I acknowledge our need for the idealization phase. But also they way they represent themselves makes the partner to open up. The idealization phase is like going on vacation or doing any activity to unwind. We carry out own buried issues but i think their welcoming nature makes us exaggerate what we were doing.

I think it is not so much about healthy unhealthy as it is about pride and eventually being blinded by it.  We all have pride and it can blind any of us

[antjs]

Whatever it is called. Lets call it pride. Though we should already be proud of who we are without the validation of a partner. Do not all people feel proud and good from people praising their good traits? You should be proud by default (which is not the case for most members here including me) but wont this extra pride projected on you feel good ?

We have our issues. They have their issues. But i am thinking that they exaggerated and catalyzed our false pride. It was there (false pride) we had long before they appeared and they activated it. But they did not only activate it, they exaggerated it. And in the aftermath this exaggeration is the same but with the negative sign

[antjs]

We have the issues. But i think we make it overwhelming in the aftermath because of this exaggeration during the idealization phase. As much as they put you on pedestal with this pride, yet in the aftermath we are too unproud of who we are and we are very hard on ourselves. I tend to believe that the truth is somewhere in between

[Blimblam]

Ok let's frame it differently

The inspire in us a certain confidence whatever we felt was missing that we found when we looked into their eyes.  In that way they objectify themself so they can attach to us.  The attachment is the feeling like we need them to feel what was missing in our minds they become that part of us they become that part of our identity.  But this is the illusion.

And this is why the when they leave we felt like we lost a huge part of ourself.

[BacknthSaddle]

Listen, there is no shame in being needy. People who truly love us are concerned about our needs. People with BPD DO feel shame about their neediness, and they project that shame onto us. It's all very confusing and very damaging. The thing to think about in the aftermath is not "what's wrong with me that I'm so needy," because nothing is wrong with you. The question is more can you find other ways to have these needs met than with this overwhelming idealization.

[Blimblam]

For me I sort of had the realization that they showed me what I thought was missing that I needed but the illusion was identifying that as my ex as an object that is that.  But it was really just a part of me and I had it the entire time I just thought it was hiding from me because no one showed it to me earlier in life.  But in her eyes I found it in myself. 

We found it! Now we just have to reclaim it.

I wasn't detaching from her I was just realizing that was me the entire time.

[Blimblam]

The main issue with the mirroring and projecting with the borderline the conflict is this:

We are looking for something within and we see it in our reflection of the eyes of the borderline. We think we need her to know this part of ourself. We don't and that was just a metaphor for the real thing.  It is within it's inside the gaping hole you feel in your heart.  We can't think our way to it.  Just accepting defeat and surrender to that feeling keep on feeling it and whatever may come untill you find peace within the emptiness.  It's there waiting for you and it always has been.

[Reforming]

Lively discussion which is great.

I do appreciate that when we emerge from the debris of these relationships we need to express our anger, our hurt and our grief.

We need to be heard by others who understand our pain.

And this site, community is brilliant for this. 

I also think that there is a point, when if we want to move on, we need to shift our focus onto ourselves.

I realise that the words unhealthy, ill can be triggers for us but, we use these freely to describe our exes. They may be disordered but were we really healthy ourselves?

Speaking for myself, I ignored my gut instincts, warnings from others and numerous red flags to commit to a relationship that was profoundly unhealthy.

I know how seductive their idealisation can be but if I'm honest part of me knew that it was unnatural, unreal and almost suffocating.

I wasn't forced at gun point I stayed, even when things deteriorated

I could walked away at any point

I didn't.

And despite growing evidence that my ex has serious issues that she was never willing to confront I stayed.

I wasn't healthy enough to step away

Instead I focussed on my ex's issues rather than healing myself.

Her destruction of my idealised self, revealed the weaknesses that I was trying to hide.

Shyness, anxiety, fear, sensitivity, uncertainty and a lot of self loathing

It hurt like hell but now that I've come through the anger, grief and depression I'm actually glad because I feel like I'm finally facing up to myself

It's humbled me and made me more honest about the real me but it's also freed me to rebuild myself with much healthier foundations.

I'm not perfect but I'm learning to stop hiding the real me and become much accepting of who I am.

[eagle755]

Reforming, that was so extremely well put.

Exactly what I did.

I was actually so cautious of the way she acted that I didn't even want to date her, but she sort of pushed it on me and I got hooked, yet I was still extremely cautious and have no clue why I didn't leave.

It definitely opens our eyes to our true self though. Its helping me figure myself a lot more. Which is something I really need. I've never been able to define who I am, not even close.

[Blimblam]

Reforming

I can really relate to ignoring gut instincts and continuing to subject myself to abuse while being in denial.

I agree it is important to take responsibilities on our own behavior and learn our own unhealthy patterNs and it may trigger some. 

I can sense in Aj a sense of urgency like being hard on himself.  I definately can relate to that in trying to figure it out. 

I had to reframe the idea of unhealthy and boundaries for myself as being true to myself in creating the space I need to heal and make my transformation and just accept where I am in my journey no matter what anyone thinks not even myself. 

[antjs]

My case is consuming my mind.

I did not tolerate her behavior. I was out after 6 days of devaluation. I did not normalize her abuse nor did i ignore or accept it. I broke up with her. At least i know that i am ok regarding this point.

The problem lied (not anymore really but i am curious why) in the longing for the fantasy, missing the isealization phase and grieving a person that i made up in my mind (not her but who i think she was).

There lies the problem. I am having this questions and needing their answers. Yes blimblam i am hard on myself but trying to train my self not to.

[Reforming]

Blimbaum I don't mean to judge anyone else and I understand our need for comfort and validation.

For quite a while I was resistant to accepting my own issues. Despite some dark moments I saw my FOO and childhood as fundamentally healthy  

I said as much in my early posts, rejecting that I idea that I might have been codependent and ripe territory for this type of relationship  

But when I began to honestly reexamine it with a T and then on my own I realised that it wasn't true.  :'(

Acceptance of this has taken time and it's been tinged with sadness but it's made me reframe my sense of self in a healthier way

Eagle my ex used to say that I was very cautious and wary at the start of our relationship. That she fell in love first and much quicker than I. My gut told me that there was something wrong

Later on in our relationship she repeatedly said that we both had issues. She was right  

I lacked a clear sense of myself, I had narcissistic tendencies - the belief that I had the power and the right to fix her. She didn't want to be fixed but neither did I

I think real self knowledge, defining or redefining who you are, your sense of self is absolutely key to healing.

Without a clearly defined sense of self it's almost impossible to be self directed and have healthy boundaries.

It's a bit like sitting in a boat the you can't really sail and just drifting along.

If you know who you are and are self directed, if you have a clear sense of purpose and healthy values. Then you have the awareness and skills to try and avoid the storms and unhealthy relationships.

I'm currently training in a rowing boat but soon I'm hoping to move up to a dingy  . And after that who knows, yacht, cruiser...

[Reforming]

antony

It sounds like you were self aware enough to withdraw quickly. That's good

We all know how these relationships can touch us like a drug.

It sounds like she answered some deep need of yours. I don't know your history but it can be hard if not impossible to explore our FOO objectively.

Are you seeing a T?

[Reforming]

antony I think Cared's comment about emotionally absent fathers is spot on.

My father was very emotionally absent throughout my childhood but for years I never really recognised it

I didn't know any better

I wanted my father to love me and I wanted to love him so I denied it.

Therapy helped become more aware and now when I look at my siblings I realise that his absence or disconnection has left a big mark on all of us.

Emotionally present, connected fathers who actively parent are hugely important in our healthy development and long term happiness.

I came across this online a while back

www.webmd.com/men/features/dads-impact-on-career

Google father hunger if you get the chance

[Blimblam]

Aj

I'm glad to hear you are working on not being hard on yourself.  For me this focus has been pretty complex and seems to be a core issue. It has even been paradoxical at times.  Focusing on it though has put most of my interaction with my ex into perspective. When I focused on detaching it really didn't help me detach it kept me stuck. 

[BacknthSaddle]

I was actually so cautious of the way she acted that I didn't even want to date her, but she sort of pushed it on me and I got hooked, yet I was still extremely cautious

Eagle my ex used to say that I was very cautious and wary at the start of our relationship. That she fell in love first and much quicker than I. My gut told me that there was something wrong

This was the case as well.  She used to say often how she "pushed" me into the relationship.  I suppose anyone is susceptible to the seduction to some degree.  But of course, had I been able to establish firm boundaries, I would not have been pushed. 

[BacknthSaddle]

antony I think Cared's comment about emotionally absent fathers is spot on.

My father was very emotionally absent throughout my childhood but for years I never really recognised it

I didn't know any better

I wanted my father to love me and I wanted to love him so I denied it.

Therapy helped become more aware and now when I look at my siblings I realise that his absence or disconnection has left a big mark on all of us.

Emotionally present, connected fathers who actively parent are hugely important in our healthy development and long term happiness.

I came across this online a while back

www.webmd.com/men/features/dads-impact-on-career

Google father hunger if you get the chance

I've been reading about this this morning.  If anyone has any additional resources with regards to this concept, they would be much appreciated.  My father was physically absent since the time of my infancy; indeed I never met him.  I found out in adulthood that he stayed with his third wife (the one after my mother) and raised three daughters with her.  His third wife forced him to tell his daughters about my existence when the oldest was 10 or 11; even then, he raised the possibility that I was not his.  I now actually have a very good relationship with the oldest, who tracked me down in adulthood.  But, it goes without saying: this process has not left me without scars. 

[antjs]

Now i am by the sea alone and reading a book that i have owned for years but really did not have the courage to read it. It is called negaholics how to overcome negativity and turn your life around. Guess what is the second chapter is talking about ? Negativity and where it originated foo. The book address the 7 common characteristics of a dysfunctional family. The characteristics sounds to be very common in our world. I wonder how much dysfunctional families are there on this planet ? I began to monitor my parents' behaviors. I think my siblings are getting a portion of what i am getting. Sonce i am the elder i really want to talk to my siblings validate them and tell hom that they can come and talk to me about anything they desire.

My therapist is not working for me. He is demonizing my ex only. I think i will schedule an appointment with a new therapist.

This experience is so liberating. It feels good to begin to put your fingers on the reason for that void and emptyness you have been feeling all your life even during your supposed to be happiest moments. I have to depersonalize my childhood bringing as much as i depersonalized my experience with my ex. Anyone who was brought up by my parents would have turned out to be like me. I also have to remember that they have tried their best. They have just passed the way of parenting as did my grand parents. Its like passing down the china, the jewlery and anything "valuable" from a generation to the next. We were granted this chance of the BPD experience to break the cycle thrpugh generations. I really recommend the book that i have mentioned. The words are very simple, informative and understanding. Also spot on and resonates much.

[antjs]

And btw the book addresses this perfectly. Your dysfunctional family does not have to be stereotypical like the drunk dad who rages or the divorced parents or the dad that abandoned the family very early during childhood. As i said the 7 characteristics sound to be common in millions of families in this world. It needs some objectivity to analyze it.

[Reforming]

Hi Antony and backnthsaddle

It sounds like an interesting read. I think that FOO issues stretch way beyond the most extreme examples.

The article which I read quoted two psychologist who made interesting points on the impact of absent fathers

The Father Factor: How Your Father's Legacy Impacts Your Career (written by  Stephan B. Poulter, PhD). WebMD talked with Poulter, a former police officer who for 24 years has been a clinical psychologist specializing in family relationships, and two other experts about the influence fathers have on careers.

According to legacy comes from the "father factor," or the type of fathering a son or daughter receives. While dads can exhibit a combination of styles, Poulter says one will dominate. He categorizes these styles as Superachiever, Time Bomb, Passive, Absent, and Compassionate/Mentor.

Absent. When a father is physically or emotionally absent, it gets translated into rejection. "Kids are wired for both parents to love them," says Poulter, who describes his own father as emotionally distant. Poulter tells WebMD that absent fathers are the glue that holds juvenile gangs together, and he believes they're also responsible for widespread depression among Generation X. In the workplace, the child may have problems with authority figures, especially male bosses, and direct anger toward co-workers. Poulter offers action steps for healing the anger, which include recognizing that the absent father's legacy carries positive as well as negative influence.

Brian A. Schwartz, PhD, is a psychologist who applies a psychohistorical approach to career planning. Having counseled more than 1,700 clients, he says almost all of them fail to understand how their fathers influenced their career success, failure, or satisfaction.

"Regarding Dad's role, he believes the emotionally absent father does the most damage. "Emotionally, the children keep going back to a well that is empty."

I found this other article online

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/co-parenting-after-divorce/201205/father-absence-father-deficit-father-hunger

[blue_skies_ahead]

I personally take all of my exes messages and for everything he says "you" about, I substitute "I" then I can see where he's really coming from.  It's eye opening.

[camuse]

I'd never heard of projection before, but now I can understand what my uxBPD really meant when she said certain baffling things to me. It's like I have learned a new language, which is often translated into plain english simply be replacing "you" with "I" or "me"

So many of the things she said, make perfect sense now.

"You treat me very badly!" = "I treat you very badly!"

"You don't think I'm anything special - any person would do!" = "I don't think you are anything special - any person would do!"

"You don't care about how I feel!" = "I don't care about how you feel!"

"You are going to cheat on me one day!" = "I am going to cheat on you one day!"

"Most women have a personality disorder!" = "I have a personality disorder!"

"You could just abandon me at any time and erase me from your life - that's the kind of guy you are!" = "I could just abandon you at any time and erase you from my life - that's the kind of woman I am!"