BPDFamily.com

I listened and and empathised for 4 hours, as she covered her experience of my "sins"

As Covey says, seek first to understand then be understood.

I then sent her an email explaining a recent time when she had manipulated me. and how it had affected me. I didn't give in to the manipulation

And fall off my chair, bump my head... .she apologised. Wow, first one in 7 months of raging.

When a BPD apologises are they for real, or is she just positioning me for the next money request?

Hope you didn't hurt yourself too badly falling off the chair, etc.!

I think it could be either one, or somewhere in between, which isn't a very helpful answer.  I've had apologies and seen remorse in my uBPDw a few times and was convinced they were heartfelt.  She hates her BPD traits and what they do to others when she sees that clearly.

I guess if I was uncertain, I'd choose to respond as if it were sincere and tell her it meant a lot to me.  Something like "I felt really loved by you when you apologized, thanks!".  Its an opportunity to model a two-way, meaningful relationship.  I'd also be pretty guarded about hoping for it again (I'm a fool that way) and would definitely avoid rewarding the behavior with what they might be trying to get through manipulation.

 

Same here, I've had genuine apologies and attempts to change the problem. Also had sorrys that have been used to manipulate or end the issue quickly.

What do you think, did it sound sincere? The only was to know is to accept that apology gratefully and then see if there is any corresponding change in you interactions.

I dread the apologies... .95% the next word is "But... ."

It's just her way to reset the conversation and start again from the beginning

I've only had one apology. She said about some issue: "that wasn't a smart thing to do". I don't think that was a very sincere apology, because immediately after that she said: "i'm this close to flipping out. if you don't be kind to me, i will freak out for real"

My ex apologized for years…literally.  All seemed heartfelt in those moments, so much so that he even agreed to come to my therapy sessions within me for just a couple times and completely took responsibility while he was there for all of his behaviors that were causing a drastic disturbance in our relationship.  What a charmer!  He presented himself as my teddy bear, superhero with his tail between his legs that was still holding me up on a pedestal, worshipping my world and just wanting to do right by me.

TWO MAJOR PROBLEMS---One, at that time "BPD" was not recognized as an issue.  Two, his words were NEVER backed up by actions/behaviors.  His behaviors were consistently inconsistent, irrational, impulsive, chaotic and often bizarre. 

In short, I think there is a "possibility" that the BPD apology is as real as it can be for them in the moment, but is completely rooted in self gratifying rewards.  Basically, they mean it as long as the end result is an extreme coddling of THEIR innermost insecurities.  I guess that is in essence a definition of manipulation, but it's more like manipulation on auto-pilot, without any thought or preparation.  It's just how they're wired.

Apologies?  What apologies?  LOL, mine has apologized for ONE thing.  Well, separate incidences, but one action in all.  Then, the next conversation that happens to bring up the incidence, he makes sure to not take blame or to blame me for my hurting him by telling him to leave was what caused it.  Yep... .what apologies?

I think my expwDBPD was sincere, both to me, and in her reflections about her past relationships. She would say about her behavior "I wasn't my best self" or "I was my worst self" in the situation or in the past relationship. She was in intense treatment for a year though, so that probably helped. We could even sometimes laugh about it and joke that "it could be worse" and she'd tell me about some of the worst things she'd done. We'd also try to plan for episodes.

When things got really bad though, none of it worked. It didn't stop her from doing the behaviors.  :'( :'( :'(

Great question and one I have been pondering today. My ex told me a while ago that he would apologise to my daughter for moving in against her wishes. The apology didnt come and he told me that it would be pointless because nothin has changed between them after he moved out. I tried to explain that an apology isn't something you do to get a person to change; it is because you feel it was wrong and you want to admit to your responsibility. Yesterday she received an apology letter! I am left wondering if it's genuine.

I totally agree with this assessment... I'm still living it... .although probably not much longer for sanity's sake... .

I too believe that it IS sincere and real... .as Hope stated... . "as real as they can actually be"... .The sad part in all of this is that the BPD doesn't see how they are... .thus, can't really understand what they are doing to us... .But truth be told, it IS still THEIR actions they are choosing to take, and THEY are still responsible for their own actions, unfortunately... .

My experience has been that my uBPDh is majorly in denial when I address this type of thing to any depth... .It's just "me and my emotional bs" that HE has to deal with (victim mentality).  On many occasions, his words to me have been, "I am just GOING TO BE STUCK WITH THIS FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE"... .regarding any of my behaviors in trying to deal with his BPD... .Most likely, that's NOT the case... . 

thanks for the comments all.

Entropy1, the fall off my chair, bumped some sense into my head lol

Sugarlily, I think she has sensed that I'm really not willing to put up with this any more. I came to the point where I accepted about two weeks ago, that she'll never change. My desire to fix, caregive, co-depend on her has vanished with that. I personally think she has picked this up, and realises that this marriage is likely to end if she keeps up with this. It's likely to end anyway sadly, because I am really wondering if I can handle it. But I think she is genuine, as far as she realises that divorce is not a good idea for her  right now. I don't think she sees me as a human being with feelings, and I do feel like I've been a sperm donor and financial sponsor to uBPDw inc. She is trying to make an effort for the first time ever, so that's the positive I'm taking from it.

Please wish me luck? I'm back home for the weekend to be with the children. After 18 divorce threats the last 7 months, she has asked me on a date next wednesday, and she wants to spend sunday afternoon together as a family. She has already started the traditional dysregualtion on the phone this morning. She was firing all sorts of things from the hip. And said "And one more thing" three times, before I finally hung up, and I said sms me. It's going from severe rage and push for 7 months, to manipulate and pull for the last 3 weeks or so.

You said this so well... .

"I'm sorry I hit you but you made me do it"

I've had this one!

Last time was in January - I walked out. It'll be the last time ever!

Last night after I had followed him out to the truck in the middle of a heated conversation, he said, "You're not gonna learn until you have a broken jaw, are you?"

Thankfully just words up to this point, but you never know... .Why do I not see how stupid I am for even being here?

That's hectic thereishope. Sorry to hear you're being threatened that way. You're not stupid (and you might be feeling bad for something he has said/done), I have been there too. Taken the abuses. She (my uBPDw) hit, kicked, scratched, threw things at me for years. Why did I put up with it - I don't really know. But I know where I am now - well on my way to recovery from co-dependence, and divorce or not, she will never do that to me again.

Ironically, now that I have taken a stand and said "no", she wants me more than ever. She is pestering me to sleep with her, hold hands, kiss. I've said - "no chance until I feel nurtured and respected". I've decided what I want and communicated it clearly and firmly.

Boundaries are becoming more natural for me too, given that I had none for 14 years of turbulent marriage.

There is hope :-)

Thank you for the encouragement and understanding... .It is great that you are taking care of you, and also seeing a change in her... .I pray it is real and lasting for you & her!... .Stay strong!  Seems like you are doing the right things!  :)

I have too although this is not a club I want to be in.  When Freedom condenses all the words into that sentence, it is a little scary.

In my case, my wife got angry at something (minor) I did.  I apologized since it was my fault, although an accident.  She went away for a few minutes then came back to throw her cell phone at me.  I guess it was my fault for not apologizing correctly? 

Thanks for calling me "Freedom"! 

It's painful, I know, and it's a tough club to be in.  There are days I'm bitter and there are days I'm better.  Smartest and best thing I've ever done it leave.

BTW: If you find that you BPDSO is driving your friends and family away.  It's the start of isolation -a warning of future abuse.

You are welcome.  I saw the Freedom and went for it. 

We are going in the opposite direction to her driving them away.  I am bringing back family that she did not like, and she is fighting harder.  The ironic thing is that I was not close to those family members until recently and her actions brought them closer.  In the light, I have to thank her (not to her face :)).

Pavillion had a great answer :)

I've gotten more than a few, what seemed at the time sincere, apologies from my xBPDgf.  But these apologies and "introspection" by her never really stood the test of time, and didn't remain consistent.

She knew that she could really fly off the handle at family members without really any provocation and she sincerely talked about changing for everyone's sake, not just me. Which I would concur with.  But... .the big issue is no real follow up actions about it occurred.  And if some original issue was ever brought up again just in general discussion, she could be totally unpredictable how she might respond.  She might go crazy.  She might deny her apology or say I "misunderstood."  That showed me she didn't really take accountability for her actions.

Thanks for all your responses!

It seems like a continuum of apologies from very few (2 in 14 years from my uBPDw), to "more than a few" like gtrhr, to an ex "apologised for years" for hope0807.

It strikes me that regardless of where a pwBPD is on this apology continuum, they actually mean very little by it. It is what they do in the moment because it suits them to do it perhaps, or it is part of a manipulation, or it is genuinely how they feel right there and then. It's probably wise not to use it to gauge anything regarding the relationship, other than to start a blog post on BPDfam LOL.

In my case the apology has sparked off what I see as an obsession by her to get me back into her life. After 7 months of raging, the pendulum has switched. We have had a normal (read no shouting and swearing) conversation about perceptions around behaviour, money and intimacy. This is also a first! 7 months ago, any one of these topics would have set us into an argument. I could try work to work out if she's being serious I suppose, or if this is just a manipulation to either get me back into bed, or back into her life. I think it would be assertive to choose not to work out anything, so I will because I have recently accepted that she will never change.

Averyon, a good read is the book "How can I forgive you?"  What I like about it is that it distinguishes strong acts of contrition regret, and retribution from cheaper acts of merely saying "sorry" without a whole lot of other words or actions to back it up.  With cheap forgiveness the person that did us harm may not even understand what they did to us, or why they did it and may continue on doing it without regard to anyone else' feelings.  How does that really help?

A lot of people say "oh just forgive each other." And the book challenges you to forgive the person if they meet some requirements.  There are different levels of forgiveness. You can merely "let go" on your own terms without their participation.  You could give them a cheap forgiveness too but you might feel like a sellout and subject to further abuse.  True forgiveness is mutual - it should have a standard where they don't keep abusing you and also requires you to let go and not punish them for the rest of their lives if they're sincere about change.

I found my exBPD did make a few sincere efforts at apologies including writing several letters a long time ago.  Those helped and she tried but she could not really reach a point of stability where those things stuck.  If she really felt contrition about what she did if I tried to discuss something with her in a matter of fact way later on, even not passing judgment, she could go, well insane about it.  Yelling and defensive all over again.

Well at a certain point you can make a choice for yourself to give up the hurt, pain, anger or whatever it is your partners bad behavior made you feel.

It's great you're in the spot not wanting or needing to work anything out and accepting she won't change.  I know with my xBPD gf if she ever wanted me back once she got me and my heart and mind back in the relationship it was her cue to check out!  It really felt like a game.  Don't know why it's like this for them.

Thanks gt, I'm really new at this, and I'm fumbling through it, one issue at a time. This site has been a lifesaver, and your comment about forgiveness is very true. In fact I have offered her the cheap forgiveness, not realising that there is still deep mistrust, and anger that surfaces in me from time to time. Especially since this momentous radical acceptance I have had recently. I know it needs to come out, but I'm not sure how to get it out. I appreciate the book reference, the timing is perfect. Is Janis Abrahms the author? I've laid down my wants - nurturing, respect, autonomy and reciprocation. I'm sure that's a heck of a thing for a pwBPD, but I've decided to live a healthy life, and I want a healthy romantic relationship. I'm not sure where that leaves our future together.

It's been a whirlwind of change from me putting in boundaries, radical acceptance, and starting to live my life again.

No e would apologize but it never felt sincere. It was like... .I am sorry get over it and let's move on.  I believe that if a person is truly sorry they look for ways to change their behavior if they know  It hurts someone. So all the apologies I got were not for me. They were for her... .to make herself feel better.

While you mileage may vary my experience so far in 4 years of dealing with this is that apologies are genuine. Sometimes I get an "... .but you know I am ill in the head." following the apology.

Moselle, yes, Janis Abrahms Spring is the author.  You hit the nail on the head about cheap forgiveness and the deep mistrust that lingers.

There are a few things that kind of make me wary of BPDs from all the other mental illnesses (except narcissists and sociopaths):

1) From what I've read countless times from other people's experiences is that they split you "black" more and more frequently as time goes on. That's strange. If this disease was so much a disease, then it shouldn't be controlled. My husband (2 more months before divorce is finalized) would lose control, but as time moved on, it seemed that he "allowed" himself to lose control... .

2) They are always sleeping with someone. Whether it's you or someone else. They are never celibate... .not even for a short time (like a week or two).

3) The capacity to manipulate.

From my experience (and maybe it is just him), it seems that they may be sick, but they have no morality.

Are you sure your girlfriend is a good person, in general? Does she really love you? Because the great conversation and hugs and movies are fun? But that's her mirroring normal people. These people thrive best in the underground and grit. From what I observe and my from my personal experience, the only thing that kept my borderline in shape was when I was wild and crazy too. They act better out of fear (fear of you cheating) than out of love.

So if you want to be in an open relationship and party like a rock star, stay with her. But, we all make a decision to be good or bad people. She made her decision. She's bad to the bones. She's pretending to be good, so you won't hurt her. But she won't think twice about hurting you. Trust me.

Well said. I will remember this!

Gloria_Patch,

This (yours) is one of my very favorite posts and I'm going to have to find a way to go back to it often. 

Thanks Gloria_Patch, this whole post is incredibly insightful, but these points particularly stuck out to me.

I've also read that it is common for BPD's to change their value system completely at various stages of their lives. What they profess as their values, seems to indeed be a mirroring of others values and morals, to fit in or to maintain the camouflage. Their real value system seems to fit their feeling in the moment. If they feel justified in sleeping with someone in the moment, they do. Later, when the consequences occur, it makes sense to be contrite and apologetic, in an attempt to keep the relationship intact (ie to prevent them getting hurt, embarrassed or inconvenienced by a break up).

It seems their external value system flexes, but their real internal value system is "What is best for me, right now".

Does that make sense?

I have a question for all of you here... .  My uBPDh seems to be putting a lot of effort into "being with only me"... .We both have been through times of unfaithfulness when we were apart and a lot of pain happened, and  he seems to be committed to "us" in this marriage... .BPD still exists, and has still sucked me dry to the extent that I'm sincerely trying to figure out if I should leave (there's something in me that has not stopped wanting to, beneath the surface... .) ... .  But in reference to this immorality factor... .although he seems to be being faithful to me here, he still seems very much "sex-focused" when things are white, wild with me, and joking in off-color terms, sexual things, (though nothing unfaithful... more so homosexual jokes with son, and body part jokes, etc... .though nothing unfaithful-like... )... .Does this make sense?  I guess I'm just wondering how much of a concern should this be for me here, if he is actually seeming to be single-minded with our marriage as the fulfillment of his exaggerated sexual side?

It sounds like he's preoccupied with sex or sexual innuendo, for one reason or another. I'm learning it's best to be blunt about your needs, and enforce a boundary. (They hate it at first, but hold tough through the anger and they seem to adapt to the new reality) Perhaps you might think about what you're comfortable with, instead of worrying about why he's doing what he's doing. Perhaps you might start by validating his feelings about being male and sexual. Explain kindly how you feel about all the sex talk. You've decided for your own good that you want significant conversation in the relationship which is more general, and without sexual reference. And initiate conversation around general topics (ie you own the action). Just a suggestion. This approach has worked for me as I become more assertive with my separated uBPDw.

Sex seems to always be a point of concern in BPD relationships!

Good suggestions!  Thank you!  :)

Yup, I absolutely agree with this statement. My ex changes her values depending upon whom she is idealizing. If it is her family, she becomes religious and dogmatic. If it is me, she becomes secular and open minded. Everything they do is to get a sense of control over their lives - if that means mirroring values or apologizing. Because if apologies work and you are back with them, they feel a sense of control and security. Of course it is temporary. But a child isn't looking very far ahead, only what they are feeling right now.

I agree. They mirror very... .- I wouldn't say frequently - but I would say completely. That former self is GONE completely. But it comes back when they mirror you again. But there is an essence that they tend to keep. And actually, I think you stated it perfectly. That essence is "What is best for me?" Yet, I think there is a second essence. And that essence is hatred and immorality.

Immorality is contagious. I read an article saying, "Beware. Borderline is contagious." I wouldn't say that I became borderline. But I started doing things and saying things that I'd never imagine. All that compassion and love... .you may still have that urge to be a compassionate, but then, your actions will begin not be so... .

A few days before our baby was born, my husband started "splitting". And he hadn't really "split" for a year. And it wasn't the baby that caused it. It was a new job. Simple as that. Very unpredictable. He started drinking again. All hell went loose. I was so surprised to see that hatred again. I was surprised at how quickly a newborn became a pawn. And how he didn't care about exposing the baby to a toxic environment. And I am surprised that I allowed him for 4 month to expose my son to a toxic environment. My son's first word could have been "b___". I was surprised at my morality at letting a person get the best of me (but they do it from sympathy, don't they). By the way, I love the word "toxic". Because "toxic" is really what all nonBPDs are thinking. Yet, it is the borderline that always says it first.

These people are manipulative and devious. The bad side always wins with them. And I think it is, because that it is their real side.

@thereishope,

I don't know. I think it should be a concern. If your son had a friend that made those jokes, would you let him play with that friend? And there' no judgement from me. I don't know what kind of hypnotic trance they put us in for us to always allow them to break all the rules.

I had never had this thought before, but it is very true. I have also started to mirror this nonsense. The annihilation of self that they experienced as a child, starts to work on the non-BPD spouse. I realise that I have indeed become like her in some ways.

By the way, I don't think my uBPDw is immoral, but I do think she is out of control, and acts on her impulses.

I also think she has serious hatred issues.

Gloria_Patch... .thank you for your thoughts... .I didn't take it judgmentally at all... .As I'm sure you know, I am honestly here on this message board for any and every insight I can get into this horrible thing we all have dealt with... .  I agree with your thoughts and I like the way you stated "what kind of hypnotic trance"... .I have been TRYING desperately to make sense out of the lack of peace I feel deep down in the core of my being... .Because on the surface, uBPDh really seems to be trying... .(he is not aware of BPD, but)... .I have actually seen some results of my "not just taking" the BPD behavior lying down anymore... .Not sure how much I've actually changed in my reactions, I just reached a point where I realized I can't just allow BPD rages and splits to completely overwhelm me anymore... .so I started trying to use SET, etc... .and honestly communicate more of my honest feelings... .and walk away a bit more when things happen... .He too, seems to be trying to walk away before he splits and is hurtful to me... .He tries to not insult me as much... .tries to be quiet more... .Not sure how much of a success this is... .he still spends the majority of his time buried in work and phone mobster game, but the hurtful behavior I think is less and the recovery time I think is less... .  He puts lots of efforts into providing for me and the kids and tried to make this month special for my birthday (the 19th)... .  So as considerate as he seems and for all the thoughtful things he's done, and for how he is trying to be better, go to church, etc... .now, I "believe" what I see... .BUT BUT BUT... .is this me just under that "hypnotic trance"?  I honestly don't know, and I'm getting tired trying to figure things out.  I feel like it really is beyond me, but there is a part of me that just wants peace and joy and to be alone with my kids where I don't have to stress about ANYTHING I SAY OR DECIDE TO DO... .That never goes away, even thought things are really "good" right now.  I seem to blow off the shaking of his head when he thinks I say or do something stupid... .I belittle the discounting somehow... .(part of the trance... .)... .I feel crazy like everyone else who has claimed that on this message board... .I just don't know what "seeing clearly" means here... .I keep praying for God to help me do that... .When I first prayed it, He led me to this message board... .:)  Now, in spite of the good things my eyes are seeing, I keep reading about false Christians, and disruptive people in the Bible... .it's like every message I listen to and all the Scripture I read leads me to this kind of stuff... .and I have to be honest that the BLACK side of BPD is perfectly described in passages about false professors of Christianity who ultimately cause divisions and are quite destructive to those authentically trying to follow the LORD... .Sorry I went off on a rabbit trail... .I just really feel as thought I'm caught in this vortex of unclear sight... .and I want so much to see clearly and to act on what I KNOW to be TRUE... . 

Moselle,

Hatred is immoral.

Thereishope,

I know where you are coming from. It seems so easy to see that someone is borderline. But it is so difficult to get a grasp on what to do with it. If you are in a fog, then imagine other people who look in on your relationship. They won't be able to distinguish who is the hateful one. It will look like mutual combat. So start documenting everything now so that if you do decide to leave, you can clearly state your case to the judge. As far as religion, maybe look at 1 John 3:8... .

Also, we can practice so many boundary strategies, but they are the mentally ill ones. They need to be cured through open honesty in therapy. If they will not do that, then they will always be borderline. We are not doctors. I feel it's best to cut them loose until they look at themselves and search for help by themselves. If it is meant to be, they will come back cured. If it is not, then a heartbreak only lasts for so long. We will heal.

Sorry. I meant 1John 3:7-8

Gloria_Patch. I like the way you call a spade a spade. Yes, hatred is immoral held up against a perfect standard. Are they choosing hatred, or is the illness choosing hatred for them? There is a difference, just as cancer chooses the tumour for you. Cancer requires extensive treatment to 'cure', but you are never really cured. You go into remission.

I agree 100% with your advice about documentation. We don't know what they will do next (neither do they, BTW :-)), so documenting everything is wise and responsible.

Honesty in therapy is absolutely required, but I actually don't give a hoot anymore whether mine goes to therapy, jumps on her head or spits bullets. I have decided I want an intimate relationship with nurturing, mutual respect, and reciprocation of kindness.

Gloria... .I too, appreciate your black and white answers.  It is pretty clear, when not clouded by FOG, isn't it?

I have to agree that all of I John 3 states things pretty bluntly.  We would be amiss if we did not consider these things.  Thank you for sharing it with me.  I hadn't "stumbled upon" that passage yet, although I'm sure God led you to share it with me... .  Thanks again for your taking time to share your insights with us. 

lol... .well, hopefully she won't spit bullets. Because you'll be the first one shot.

Yea, that's a tough one. I think borderlines can vary a little. I had a therapist suggest to me that my husband' s borderline may co-exist with antisocial personality disorder. I read up on it. And it says 15% of borderlines are also sociopaths and 15% are also narcissists... .But I don't think my husband is a sociopath. But as more time passes, and I have separated myself from the situation,  I start to waiver over whether he really is a sociopath.

But I don't think so. I had a mother who had paranoia in my late teens, and I saw a loving person display no empathy. You see, they are on the battlegrounds of WWIII.

But, I don't know. It's a tough question. I do know that they won't think twice about leaving us as a casuality. Actually, I think deep down, they desire to ruin us. I truly feel that if I died, he wouldn't even lose his appetite. Actually,  he would be happy. I was watching an interview with Eminem's Kim. At one point, he did something cruel, and she attempted suicide. He went for custody.

The cruelity. The hatred. I don't know. It feels more sinister than mental illness only.

I'm thinking of sticking silencer on there, so she doesn't wake the neighbours when she spits  :)

Look I'm as angry as the next one. I'm still working on how to manage the deep anger I feel for all of this. Anger at her, anger at her parents.

A few days ago I read a post by Aussie JJ, which actually tempered me significantly. It's on the divorce board, but I've quoted a bit from it. it a very good read for anyone involved in this but here's a (fairly long) excerpt. I've corrected the spelling for him (hint, I can be a perfectionist too). But this opened my eyes a bit to how they became this. It's titled ":)o pwBPD know when we are onto them?"

I began to have a bit of compassion, not a lot mind you :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------

How does this dynamic occur or develop on a pwBPD, or cluster B in general... .  I'll touch on NPD and BPD that I have been reading a lot on. 

Between the ages of 2-8 approximately (differs child to child), children have what's refereed to as primary narcissism.  This is where children have significant physical and emotional needs, which they are dependant on their primary caregiver to meet.  As they grow older, children focus their energy on the world around them and grow out of this 'primary narcissism' where they don't feel the compulsion to mirror their primary care giver to have those emotional and physical needs met.  This is part of the psychological growth process.  They become aware, accepting of what is around them in the world, many different objects that they can interact with.  This develops empathy in a person, the ability to put oneself in another's shoes and relate to their circumstances. 

During this developmental stage of growing out of their primary narcissism children often 'regress' when in stressful situations, a toddler cries a lot more than a 6 year old.  When a 6 year old is hurt or under stress they regress to their primary narcissism, cry act out to seek attention, mirror the object to be soothed.  The primary care giver is attentive and encourages this behaviour, constantly jumping up and running over and always soothing the child, they learn that it is acceptable, it is a valid coping mechanism to survive in the world.  This child wont grow beyond this primary narcissism, it will develop and become a part of them into adulthood.  This leads to someone with NPD.  Over cared for, over indulged, they believe they are everything and if they don't get their way, a tantrum erupts.  Empathy never develops, it is only them that is ever correct, others don't matter, they are always right, when they say something, mummy always says its ok. 

During this same developmental stage of growing out of the primary narcissism for a pwBPD they don't get that soothing, they tend to be neglected.  They learn that it isn't acceptable to feel, act out, express emotions, when they do they get nothing in return.  They shut-down as there is no reward from their primary care giver to be open with what they are feeling, and they get ignored.  Their emotions are never developed (validated) as they are always suppressed.  The primary care giver to this child is often distant, inattentive and pre-occupied with something else, the child learns that they are not important, they have to constantly be on guard and mirror to survive and not express their pain.  Not develop, not grow psychologically.  Just stay in a stagnant state to survive.  They don't relate to anything other than what that primary caregiver, often mummy is doing at that very point in time, no outside objects, no ability to empathise. 

As they grow, the emotions that they are suppressing are growing as well, often by the time children are 12 (particularly pwBPD) some  of the coping mechanisms are present, some of the acting out is present.  Why, they are in the outside world, school, they cant cope, to many things to mirror, to many variations, it all keeps changing so fast, they can't keep up, too many mirrors to maintain.  Something has to give and it cant be the other people, those other people don't care for them, they don't soothe them they have to do this themselves. 

So the pwBPD learns to give, learns to sooth, cuts to release endorphins, gets a instant rush to sooth the constant mirroring that they have to do, to keep up with all the different objects around them.  At home there was only one object they had to be careful around only one object they had to be ignored by, and mirror to maintain the peace. 

To get away from all of these objects, this child, even though they may be 15, 18 or even 30 now only wants ONE primary object, one primary caregiver.  They are sexually active as often this leads to the object latching on, instant loyalty, instant attachment from the object that opens up and is easier for them to mirror to stay safe.  This isn't an emotive process for them but a coping skill to get a figure to mirror, to be loyal. 

People with BPD and NPD are in a constant state of regression where they haven't developed psychologically.  They have different ways of acting out, expressing their needs and having them met. 

To someone with NPD, to invalidate them is to cause their emotions that were always validated to be stung, it is like whipping a kid.  The pain is instant and their reaction instant emotional raise of the cards, the louder they scream that they are correct the more likely it will be heard.  THEY ARE RIGHT MUMMY ALWAYS SOOTHED THEIR WANTS AND NEEDS.  As someone with NPD how they feel and they wont be able to stop talking. 

To  someone with BPD, to invalidate them is to cause them to suppress emotions even further, to have these emotions build up more and more.  They can't express them because NO-ONE CARES, they have to give way and not be open for you to love them, for themselves to feel safe.  This child when given a beating wasn't soothed and had to suppress those feelings.  They have to be a mirror to be safe, no feelings, nothing other than that one safe object.  Ask someone with BPD how they feel about something and they will clam up, wont be able to speak, they are not allowed to have emotions, they are suppressed.  You will get a cryptic answer to test out how you feel about it. Then they can mirror you.

Have a look at this. I posed this statement "Its amazing how all is suddenly forgiven now that it suits her, and she's oblivious to the damage she has done."  in one of my posts entitled "Recycled no more" and this was Rapt reader's response after staying with her BPD spouse for 30 years:

I used to feel like you do now: Its amazing how all is suddenly forgiven now that it suits her, and she's oblivious to the damage she has done. That was a mistake for me to obsess over that; it put off our happiness in the marriage for quite a few years actually. What I've found is that no, he wasn't oblivious to the damage he had done. In fact, he was so overwhelmed with shame over that, that he had to tamp it down to a place inside of him where he wasn't depressed and forlorn about it 24/7. He needed to do that in order to function and actually have any semblance of a happy life, especially with me still in that life.

Eventually, I learned that I needed to give him the gift of my forgiveness, and letting the angst and anger and pain go. I let it all go out of me, and into the Universe to make better... .And in the end it was a gift to me, too. I now have a happy marriage and good life. This outcome can be realistic, because I have lived it. But it wasn't easy getting here  wink

Oh yea, I heard it described as childhood post traumatic stress disorder. But, I think most prisoners can relate also.

But, I have an aquaintance who is a borderline female. She's diagnosed. She is getting her masters in psychology. She really seems like a decent person. She gave me a lot of insight on borderline. Her advice to me was to give him a chance for therapy. If he treats it like a game or doesn't go, cut him loose. By the way, my friend has a psychologist and a psychiatrist, and she still cuts. But, I think she has a capacity for unselfish love.

Maybe the test is: is your girlfriend a good person in general? Does she genuinely seem to feel for others (outside of you)? Does she admire compassionate people, celebrities who are known for charity or historical figures known for kindness?

And beware. Their little outbursts are not harmless. You may find yourself fighting a domestic violence charge? My husband and his mother called child services on me when my baby (only child) was 5 weeks old, because I kicked him out. They said I bruised the baby. A complete lie.

And I tell you, for a year, 90% of the time, my husband was a sweet, considerate, loving person. And he just SPLIT for a job change... .And relapsed. So, it could be alcoholism combined.

But there's actually a book about divorcing borderlines.

Hey GP,

I can see you've got a very tight grasp on this stuff. Thanks for sharing it all. It's helping me on my journey through the BPD tunnel.

What do you mean "she still cuts" ?

Is she a good person? I thought she was, but perhaps as Aussie JJ explains, she's just mirroring me (blush :-)) I have asked myself and my family who know her. ":)o you think she's malicious?", and I can say no, and so did they.

My Mother in Law, has ALL the traits, and she is certainly duplicitous and devious. She has definitely been spurring my wife on, to do all the hurtful things she has done during the separation. So mine teamed up with her mother too, just like yours!

The book's called "Splitting", and I'm doing ALL the stuff in there to protect myself in the event that she goes hostile. Particularly document, document, document!

Yes, that was the book I read when I was pregnant. No need to thank me for sharing. It is therapeutic for me. It is a difficult disease to understand. Others do not get it.

By cutting, I mean she self-mutiliates.

No they don't get it do they? And when I've tried to explain they look at me like I'm an alien. I've given that up now :-) But it is a lonely road. TG 4 BPDfam!

Self mutilation. That's hectic. My uBPDw's sister does that. Is it specific for BPD? or does it apply to other mental illnesses too?

Yea, I just say my husband was an alcoholic. If I describe it a little more, they may suggest he is bipolar. I kind of just describe it as, "He has two personalities, and I don't think they know the other one exists."

Cutting is BPD trait. I think more so for females. And suicide is a real possibility - again for females. The males actually more aggressive outwards and can kill. My husband's uncle is in prison for killing his wife. The other committed suicide.

My friend also stated that 60-70% of people with BPD have been sexually abused as children. I feel like my husband was abused. He doesn't have any pedophilia type traits at all. But, there issomething perverse about his hatred. And, "some men want to see the whole world burn." The longer I've been separated from him, the more I feel he is capable of anything. He might not abuse our son, but he'll hand him over to whomever it is. There is something I don't trust about a person who doesn't accept responsibility, they are capable of anything.

When they do something a little bad, they throw it all to hell. All or nothing. Once my husband's mother called child services, he really SPLIT. And, once that boundary is crossed, it's a FLOOD like no other... .

You could be writing about my uBPDh... .I appreciate your insights.  I want a more realistic view of reality... .It's hard to grasp, living in the center of the vortex... .:/

All this talk of mirroring by Aussie JJ, got me thinking. I spoke to My uBPDw today and decided that I wouldn't initiate conversation and wouldn't fill uncomfortable pauses with my voice to see what would happen.

Well nothing really happened, no conversation, lots of uncomfortable pauses. And she ended the conversation by asking "why are you mad at me?" I replied, "I'm just listening, would you like to say something?" She said "no" and hung up.  Bizarre. If I look back I always initiated a new topic of conversation during our marriage unless it was a money request or setting me up for a money request,  my wife has not volunteered her opinion.

I've been talking to my reflection for 14 years. Help?

Averyon, that's an eye opening experiment.  I've done a similar one before and the results are pretty disappointing like you talked about.

I have been seeing and talking to my ex gf some in recent weeks.  But when it comes to who is really putting forth an effort to make things work, show enthusiasm to talk or share - it's very once sided.  She won't do the minimum level to try.  She wants me to stay forever in the mode of "winning her heart" and she can forever stay in the mode playing "hard to get."  The game isn't any fun because the good times seem fewer and further in between.  Nowadays so many years into it I really don't prompt her as much as I used to.  And so it's obvious she doesn't have the desire to be together.

The other night it felt like you described.  I was really pumped up about a concert I had just seen, texting her, and by the end she was saying she wanted to go next time the artist was in town.  The whole night though I thought how if she really meant what she told me going back even 2 months ago, we would have been able to go together in the present moment!  Not some far away time.  As it was I had a ticket I had bought many months ago and didn't even attempt to exchange and get seats for the two of us.  She hasn't been giving the level of friendship to warrant me even making the attempt.  When you adopt the position that you don't have to entertain them, and be the one to keep things going things so quickly fall apart.

This is very interesting. I have been the initiator of the vast majority of our communication as well. I find myself wanting to see what happens if I just stop.

I think the wording of the BPD SO wanting us to stay "forever winning their heart" while they "forever play hard to get" is spot on. It has definitely been my experience with uBPDh.

Interesting... .I know they advise that if you want to break up with a BPD to be as boring as possible.  They will lose interest. A few times, I asked my husband what he wanted to do with his life - like what was his dreams and aspirations occupation-wise, and he looked at me blankly.

But as for him, he did have his own type of music. And he was obssessed with atheism. Although that may be because his mother is a fake Christian zealot and borderline. One time, she was like "b---ch b---ch b---ch" and other more vulgar curses as if she had turrets and then she was like "I'm going go church and pray for you." And I was shocked and said,, "Where? Church of Satan?"

But I wouldn't practice many games with them, bc mentally ill people are hypersensitive, it could cause them to split... .

One thing I wonder is if you just plain said, "I am uncomfortable with your morality. It seems the only morality you have is 'What is best for me right now?'" ... .as Averyon pointed out.

But I think I know the answer. If they split white, they will say, "I love you more than anything. Of course I want what is best for you?" Or if they split black, they will say, "I wonder that about you."

Orrrrr... .what if you told them you think you have borderline personality disorder, and start describing how you feel from a borderline perspective (after reading up on a few first hand accounts of a borderline)?

GP I'd love to do this. The risk is, they have a memory like an elephant. It would come out in a dysregulation. "You confessed that you were borderline... ."

Bold though, and I think I could just blow it off like "only a doctor diagnoses that, I was experimenting with something to test your response if I said I was borderline"

Ooh, I just thought of another, "Let's go get tested psychologically to determine if we both are borderline?" I think we "ready know her answer to that one. LOL

Yea, or she'll know you're talking about her... .And, yes, she will use it as weapon against her.

I remember what kind of stopped him, for some reason, was when I said, "I am getting too old for this."

Or, "Why do you make everything so ugly? It could never be two people in love? You always had to make the relationship so ugly?"

Or, "We both can't both be normal and we both can't be crazy. One of us is crazy."

If I said the last one, oddly, he never responded by, "You're crazy. "

Lastly, "I am not the first person you have called "insert name", so either multiple people you've met are "blank" it's you."

All those statements tended to pause him or stop him. What I never did... .but what may work is, saying, "You're mother was born in the 60s or 50s. You're grandmother in the 30s... .But this is 2014... .With all the advances in medicine, neuroscience and psychology, there is no reason why a person should not get assistance. There is a cure. There is hardly any stigma. Get cured."

Or simply, "If you loved me, you'd get help." And say it over and over again, especially when they are split white.

GP, do you enjoy the game? Is it a challenge for you? ;-) Cos you sure know a lot about it

Anyone can say "I am sorry". If they truly mean it, they will have learned from that, and they will not repeat the damaging words and/or the damaging actions. Then, it is not manipulation, but a sincere way to mend the relationship. If they apologize only to repeat what they had done previously, their words are meaningless.

In my particular situation, my BPDw has never apologized for any damaging words that she has spoken. Thus, it is very difficult to trust her and to frankly love her. She feels she is right, but God forbid that anyone should say something or do something that she feels offended by. She will be so upset.

I guess what we can determine is that a BPD who makes some sort of offense and learns and apologizes sincerely without repeating is worthy of our consideraion. After all, we are all human, and we all can make mistakes. Yet, if they are not honest and empathetic due to their own hurt from the past with them only lashing out, it is next to impossible for us who are affected to take their words seriously. They are best to be avoided, if at all possible.

I agree with this. It is so tempting to return to these types of relationships. Especially if they are acting out the idealisation phase again. We get sucked back in hoping they've changed permanently.

But this is a cyclical disease with wonderful and horrible times, the frequecy of which beats to a drum which we are kept from hearing. I hear that it becomes more predictable over time.

I've accepted she wil never change, which was quite a step for me. So the querstion to ask is, do I love this person right now "As is". If I'm honest, I don't feel  that excited to make it work. I've begun to be myself again after 7 months of separation, and why would I return to something where my true self is not supported, but attacked by a person who's emotional survival is dependent on mirroring me, and annihilating my 'sense of self'.

I'm really interested in a relationship with someone who can reciprocate kindnesses, nurturing, respect and love. I've communicated this with my uBPDw and she is making the right noises, attending her therapy sessions on her own accord, and starting to challenge her perceptions. Is it real, or a manipulation. I just don't know. Do I trust her. A strong 'No'

Lol... .No, but over the years, these were some of things I remember saying back. I don't think it's a game at all. That is why I am two months from my divorce being finalized. Too much immorality. Especially with a child.

The reason I ask is that, on an intellectual level, I find this stuff fascinating. Without this 7 month separation, I would never have had the severe introspection and subsequent clean out of my own issues like co-dependence which would have played out in any relationship with any woman. In a strange way I am actually grateful to have experienced this. Shall I continue? Heck no!

I think when someone mirrors you, especially when they are doing it subconsciously/unintentionally, you feel you found your soulmate. I think it is natural being in love. And not wanting to let go of that person. It's like going through the constant honeymoon and funeral of a spouse. Everyone understands a grieving widow or widower. But we are also in that situation.

I personally believe mental illness should be taught in high school, just like drug and sex education. So people may identify if they are developing symptoms or identify if someone is displaying symptoms.

If I knew borderline existed, I really, highly doubt I would have entered the relationship. Do you think you would?

In addition, I think some people see a tad bit of good in a person and they believe that person must be good, and they dismiss the bad and forgive easily. Some people see bad as a telling sign and never forget.

No I would not have entered the relationship, I would have run a mile into someone elses arms, who probably had BPD :-)

Why? I think this is natures way of compensating. I was looking for my reflection. I was conditioned through my relationship with my mother (BP or NP) what to expect from a spouse. I was used to this and I was co-dependent.

But out of 'somewhere' eventually comes the idea that this is wrong, that I am worth more than this, and we say "No", "no more of that, thank you very much". We deviate by choice,  from the script we grew up with. I believe this 'somewhere'  is called midlife crisis.

And I'm choosing 'healthy' not dysfunction in my mid life, I'm choosing 'happy' not sad.

And I'm grateful for my BPD spouse because I would never have known this without her. Should I carry on loving my reflection. I cannot. To do so would fly in the face of my integrity. I know better thanks to GP and all the other folks on BPDfam  |iiii

Would I choose my mother again... .Well I don't remember making that choice ;-) LOL

I agree. My mother had paranoid personality disorder. So, I think subconsciously, I developed the habit of forgiving a person's mentally ill flaws. There's something in their eyes that are similar - that helpless look even when being angry.

However, at the end, the compassion always won with my mother. For my husband, the evil wins. But then again, maybe his borderline coexists with sociopathy.

Another point is that I immediately felt comfortable with my husband, like conversation clicked effortlessly. Maybe that has something to do with mirroring. But, possibly, since we grew up with a personality disordered parent, we have some similiar way of seeing the world with apprehension.

I've wondered about the sociopathy in my W too. She has been cruel and admitted the cruelty to both me and the children. But I think it was the uncontrollable aspects of BPD driving it, the desire to lash out and the impulsiveness thereof. She shows quick moments of remorse for it, and then it is swallowed up in the FOG. I don't think a sociopath can feel the remorse even for an instant.

I agree 100% about seeing the world with apprehension together. It is the beginnings of the conflict cycle which plays over and over until someone stops it.

How are you doing regarding your separation? You seem to have made your mind up

Yea, it's very difficult to detect sociopathy when another mental illness is very active... .especially, since BPDs are prone to paranoia. After all, no one feels for someone they perceive as evil attackers, which is how BPDs perceive us when they split black. But, I think it's a good idea to consider that sociopathy is a real possibility. His mother definitely is a sociopath with borderline. She's a nurse. She knew child services could take a 5 week old to a state facility. And babies carry emotional memory. The damage to my son could have been severe.

Also, possibly, your wife's remorse could be that for herself. But like I said, my friend really seems like a good person. So, I bet when she hurts her boyfriend, she feels bad for him (Her boyfriend has broken up with her).

The first two months of the separation were extremely difficult. Extremely, extremely, extremely difficult. He was my best friend and I loved him like family. The third month, the good memories started fading. The bad memories became stronger. Yet, I do not truly feel resentment towards him. I started reading the New Testament. I am Orthodox, so I have an Orthodox study bible that has footnotes. Since, I have a hard time comprehending certain things. And, I started reading and watching documentaries on neuroscience and childhood development. So, I don't blame him. So with my religion and from what I understand from neuroscience, he is not really to blame.

But if your spouse is dead, your spouse is dead. So, like any grieving process, you take it one day at a time. A therapist actually separated us, so he could go 30 days AA. So he has the therapist number. He doesn't get help. And, so he is dead. This last month I realized that I am no longer in love with him.

The main reason I was able to make a final decision really was my son. I didn't have a choice. It is not my luxury to let his destruction in.

But without a child, I still feel that choosing to stick with a borderline not in therapy (with sincere intention of getting better), then it's really a lifestyle choice. Like, if want to party like a rockstar in an open relationship. Bc you cannot achieve normalcy with them.

Sorry to hear about the separation being difficult. Nature has its way of healing after a while. The memories fade and we carry on I guess. I think it's great that you feel no resentment for him. I battle with this!

I'm also not willing to accept my W's behaviours. I've given up trying to diagnose her. But I have stated very clearly what I want from a relationship, and many of those things fly in the face of BPD, like intimacy. I'm not willing to have a relationship without intimacy, so she has a tough choice to make.

The gap between what I want and what is possible will either get smaller because she is serious about treatment, or it gets bigger and one of us will just wake up one day and say "No more".

I hope she gets treatment. It is a very, very bizarre disease. And unless, they are cutters or suicidal, they tend to never hit a rock bottom. If they lose a loved one, they will just think that the person was evil. I read that they make false accusations, out of rage, knowing it to be false, but then their brain will sincerely convince them that the person was capable of it anyway, so it is okay.

You said it's been 7 months? It will be nice if she gets treatment. I don't know how to persuade someone to do that.

*mod*

This thread has reached it's post limit. It's a good topic and you are welcome with starting a new thread. Thank you.