When a BPD apologises is it a manipulative tactic, or real?

[Hope0807]

Gloria_Patch,

This (yours) is one of my very favorite posts and I'm going to have to find a way to go back to it often. 

There are a few things that kind of make me wary of BPDs from all the other mental illnesses (except narcissists and sociopaths):

1) From what I've read countless times from other people's experiences is that they split you "black" more and more frequently as time goes on. That's strange. If this disease was so much a disease, then it shouldn't be controlled. My husband (2 more months before divorce is finalized) would lose control, but as time moved on, it seemed that he "allowed" himself to lose control... .

2) They are always sleeping with someone. Whether it's you or someone else. They are never celibate... .not even for a short time (like a week or two).

3) The capacity to manipulate.

From my experience (and maybe it is just him), it seems that they may be sick, but they have no morality.

Are you sure your girlfriend is a good person, in general? Does she really love you? Because the great conversation and hugs and movies are fun? But that's her mirroring normal people. These people thrive best in the underground and grit. From what I observe and my from my personal experience, the only thing that kept my borderline in shape was when I was wild and crazy too. They act better out of fear (fear of you cheating) than out of love.

So if you want to be in an open relationship and party like a rock star, stay with her. But, we all make a decision to be good or bad people. She made her decision. She's bad to the bones. She's pretending to be good, so you won't hurt her. But she won't think twice about hurting you. Trust me.

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[Moselle]

From my experience (and maybe it is just him), it seems that they may be sick, but they have no morality.

She's pretending to be good, so you won't hurt her. But she won't think twice about hurting you. Trust me.

Thanks Gloria_Patch, this whole post is incredibly insightful, but these points particularly stuck out to me.

I've also read that it is common for BPD's to change their value system completely at various stages of their lives. What they profess as their values, seems to indeed be a mirroring of others values and morals, to fit in or to maintain the camouflage. Their real value system seems to fit their feeling in the moment. If they feel justified in sleeping with someone in the moment, they do. Later, when the consequences occur, it makes sense to be contrite and apologetic, in an attempt to keep the relationship intact (ie to prevent them getting hurt, embarrassed or inconvenienced by a break up).

It seems their external value system flexes, but their real internal value system is "What is best for me, right now".

Does that make sense?

[thereishope]

2) They are always sleeping with someone. Whether it's you or someone else. They are never celibate... .not even for a short time (like a week or two).

3) The capacity to manipulate.

From my experience (and maybe it is just him), it seems that they may be sick, but they have no morality.

Are you sure your girlfriend is a good person, in general? Does she really love you? Because the great conversation and hugs and movies are fun? But that's her mirroring normal people. These people thrive best in the underground and grit. From what I observe and my from my personal experience, the only thing that kept my borderline in shape was when I was wild and crazy too. They act better out of fear (fear of you cheating) than out of love.

So if you want to be in an open relationship and party like a rock star, stay with her. But, we all make a decision to be good or bad people. She made her decision. She's bad to the bones. She's pretending to be good, so you won't hurt her. But she won't think twice about hurting you. Trust me.

I have a question for all of you here... .  My uBPDh seems to be putting a lot of effort into "being with only me"... .We both have been through times of unfaithfulness when we were apart and a lot of pain happened, and  he seems to be committed to "us" in this marriage... .BPD still exists, and has still sucked me dry to the extent that I'm sincerely trying to figure out if I should leave (there's something in me that has not stopped wanting to, beneath the surface... .) ... .  But in reference to this immorality factor... .although he seems to be being faithful to me here, he still seems very much "sex-focused" when things are white, wild with me, and joking in off-color terms, sexual things, (though nothing unfaithful... more so homosexual jokes with son, and body part jokes, etc... .though nothing unfaithful-like... )... .Does this make sense?  I guess I'm just wondering how much of a concern should this be for me here, if he is actually seeming to be single-minded with our marriage as the fulfillment of his exaggerated sexual side?

[Moselle]

But in reference to this immorality factor... .although he seems to be being faithful to me here, he still seems very much "sex-focused" when things are white, wild with me, and joking in off-color terms, sexual things, (though nothing unfaithful... more so homosexual jokes with son, and body part jokes, etc... .though nothing unfaithful-like... )... .Does this make sense?  I guess I'm just wondering how much of a concern should this be for me here, if he is actually seeming to be single-minded with our marriage as the fulfillment of his exaggerated sexual side?

It sounds like he's preoccupied with sex or sexual innuendo, for one reason or another. I'm learning it's best to be blunt about your needs, and enforce a boundary. (They hate it at first, but hold tough through the anger and they seem to adapt to the new reality) Perhaps you might think about what you're comfortable with, instead of worrying about why he's doing what he's doing. Perhaps you might start by validating his feelings about being male and sexual. Explain kindly how you feel about all the sex talk. You've decided for your own good that you want significant conversation in the relationship which is more general, and without sexual reference. And initiate conversation around general topics (ie you own the action). Just a suggestion. This approach has worked for me as I become more assertive with my separated uBPDw.

Sex seems to always be a point of concern in BPD relationships!

[thereishope]

But in reference to this immorality factor... .although he seems to be being faithful to me here, he still seems very much "sex-focused" when things are white, wild with me, and joking in off-color terms, sexual things, (though nothing unfaithful... more so homosexual jokes with son, and body part jokes, etc... .though nothing unfaithful-like... )... .Does this make sense?  I guess I'm just wondering how much of a concern should this be for me here, if he is actually seeming to be single-minded with our marriage as the fulfillment of his exaggerated sexual side?

It sounds like he's preoccupied with sex or sexual innuendo, for one reason or another. I'm learning it's best to be blunt about your needs, and enforce a boundary. (They hate it at first, but hold tough through the anger and they seem to adapt to the new reality) Perhaps you might think about what you're comfortable with, instead of worrying about why he's doing what he's doing. Perhaps you might start by validating his feelings about being male and sexual. Explain kindly how you feel about all the sex talk. You've decided for your own good that you want significant conversation in the relationship which is more general, and without sexual reference. And initiate conversation around general topics (ie you own the action). Just a suggestion. This approach has worked for me as I become more assertive with my separated uBPDw.

Sex seems to always be a point of concern in BPD relationships!

Good suggestions!  Thank you! 

[elessar]

I've also read that it is common for BPD's to change their value system completely at various stages of their lives. What they profess as their values, seems to indeed be a mirroring of others values and morals, to fit in or to maintain the camouflage. Their real value system seems to fit their feeling in the moment.

Yup, I absolutely agree with this statement. My ex changes her values depending upon whom she is idealizing. If it is her family, she becomes religious and dogmatic. If it is me, she becomes secular and open minded. Everything they do is to get a sense of control over their lives - if that means mirroring values or apologizing. Because if apologies work and you are back with them, they feel a sense of control and security. Of course it is temporary. But a child isn't looking very far ahead, only what they are feeling right now.

[Gloria_Patch]

Thanks Gloria_Patch, this whole post is incredibly insightful, but these points particularly stuck out to me.

I've also read that it is common for BPD's to change their value system completely at various stages of their lives. What they profess as their values, seems to indeed be a mirroring of others values and morals, to fit in or to maintain the camouflage. Their real value system seems to fit their feeling in the moment. If they feel justified in sleeping with someone in the moment, they do. Later, when the consequences occur, it makes sense to be contrite and apologetic, in an attempt to keep the relationship intact (ie to prevent them getting hurt, embarrassed or inconvenienced by a break up).

It seems their external value system flexes, but their real internal value system is "What is best for me, right now".

Does that make sense?

I agree. They mirror very... .- I wouldn't say frequently - but I would say completely. That former self is GONE completely. But it comes back when they mirror you again. But there is an essence that they tend to keep. And actually, I think you stated it perfectly. That essence is "What is best for me?" Yet, I think there is a second essence. And that essence is hatred and immorality.

Immorality is contagious. I read an article saying, "Beware. Borderline is contagious." I wouldn't say that I became borderline. But I started doing things and saying things that I'd never imagine. All that compassion and love... .you may still have that urge to be a compassionate, but then, your actions will begin not be so... .

A few days before our baby was born, my husband started "splitting". And he hadn't really "split" for a year. And it wasn't the baby that caused it. It was a new job. Simple as that. Very unpredictable. He started drinking again. All hell went loose. I was so surprised to see that hatred again. I was surprised at how quickly a newborn became a pawn. And how he didn't care about exposing the baby to a toxic environment. And I am surprised that I allowed him for 4 month to expose my son to a toxic environment. My son's first word could have been "b___". I was surprised at my morality at letting a person get the best of me (but they do it from sympathy, don't they). By the way, I love the word "toxic". Because "toxic" is really what all nonBPDs are thinking. Yet, it is the borderline that always says it first.

These people are manipulative and devious. The bad side always wins with them. And I think it is, because that it is their real side.

@thereishope,

I don't know. I think it should be a concern. If your son had a friend that made those jokes, would you let him play with that friend? And there' no judgement from me. I don't know what kind of hypnotic trance they put us in for us to always allow them to break all the rules.

[Moselle]

Immorality is contagious. I read an article saying, "Beware. Borderline is contagious." I wouldn't say that I became borderline. But I started doing things and saying things that I'd never imagine. All that compassion and love... .you may still have that urge to be a compassionate, but then, your actions will begin not be so... .

I had never had this thought before, but it is very true. I have also started to mirror this nonsense. The annihilation of self that they experienced as a child, starts to work on the non-BPD spouse. I realise that I have indeed become like her in some ways.

By the way, I don't think my uBPDw is immoral, but I do think she is out of control, and acts on her impulses.

I also think she has serious hatred issues.

[thereishope]

These people are manipulative and devious. The bad side always wins with them. And I think it is, because that it is their real side.

@thereishope,

I don't know. I think it should be a concern. If your son had a friend that made those jokes, would you let him play with that friend? And there' no judgement from me. I don't know what kind of hypnotic trance they put us in for us to always allow them to break all the rules.

Gloria_Patch... .thank you for your thoughts... .I didn't take it judgmentally at all... .As I'm sure you know, I am honestly here on this message board for any and every insight I can get into this horrible thing we all have dealt with... .  I agree with your thoughts and I like the way you stated "what kind of hypnotic trance"... .I have been TRYING desperately to make sense out of the lack of peace I feel deep down in the core of my being... .Because on the surface, uBPDh really seems to be trying... .(he is not aware of BPD, but)... .I have actually seen some results of my "not just taking" the BPD behavior lying down anymore... .Not sure how much I've actually changed in my reactions, I just reached a point where I realized I can't just allow BPD rages and splits to completely overwhelm me anymore... .so I started trying to use SET, etc... .and honestly communicate more of my honest feelings... .and walk away a bit more when things happen... .He too, seems to be trying to walk away before he splits and is hurtful to me... .He tries to not insult me as much... .tries to be quiet more... .Not sure how much of a success this is... .he still spends the majority of his time buried in work and phone mobster game, but the hurtful behavior I think is less and the recovery time I think is less... .  He puts lots of efforts into providing for me and the kids and tried to make this month special for my birthday (the 19th)... .  So as considerate as he seems and for all the thoughtful things he's done, and for how he is trying to be better, go to church, etc... .now, I "believe" what I see... .BUT BUT BUT... .is this me just under that "hypnotic trance"?  I honestly don't know, and I'm getting tired trying to figure things out.  I feel like it really is beyond me, but there is a part of me that just wants peace and joy and to be alone with my kids where I don't have to stress about ANYTHING I SAY OR DECIDE TO DO... .That never goes away, even thought things are really "good" right now.  I seem to blow off the shaking of his head when he thinks I say or do something stupid... .I belittle the discounting somehow... .(part of the trance... .)... .I feel crazy like everyone else who has claimed that on this message board... .I just don't know what "seeing clearly" means here... .I keep praying for God to help me do that... .When I first prayed it, He led me to this message board... .  Now, in spite of the good things my eyes are seeing, I keep reading about false Christians, and disruptive people in the Bible... .it's like every message I listen to and all the Scripture I read leads me to this kind of stuff... .and I have to be honest that the BLACK side of BPD is perfectly described in passages about false professors of Christianity who ultimately cause divisions and are quite destructive to those authentically trying to follow the LORD... .Sorry I went off on a rabbit trail... .I just really feel as thought I'm caught in this vortex of unclear sight... .and I want so much to see clearly and to act on what I KNOW to be TRUE... . 

[Gloria_Patch]

Moselle,

Hatred is immoral.

Thereishope,

I know where you are coming from. It seems so easy to see that someone is borderline. But it is so difficult to get a grasp on what to do with it. If you are in a fog, then imagine other people who look in on your relationship. They won't be able to distinguish who is the hateful one. It will look like mutual combat. So start documenting everything now so that if you do decide to leave, you can clearly state your case to the judge. As far as religion, maybe look at 1 John 3:8... .

Also, we can practice so many boundary strategies, but they are the mentally ill ones. They need to be cured through open honesty in therapy. If they will not do that, then they will always be borderline. We are not doctors. I feel it's best to cut them loose until they look at themselves and search for help by themselves. If it is meant to be, they will come back cured. If it is not, then a heartbreak only lasts for so long. We will heal.

[Gloria_Patch]

Sorry. I meant 1John 3:7-8

[Moselle]

Moselle,

Hatred is immoral.

It is so difficult to get a grasp on what to do with it. If you are in a fog, then imagine other people who look in on your relationship. They won't be able to distinguish who is the hateful one. It will look like mutual combat. So start documenting everything now so that if you do decide to leave, you can clearly state your case to the judge.

Also, we can practice so many boundary strategies, but they are the mentally ill ones. They need to be cured through open honesty in therapy. If they will not do that, then they will always be borderline. We are not doctors. I feel it's best to cut them loose until they look at themselves and search for help by themselves.

Gloria_Patch. I like the way you call a spade a spade. Yes, hatred is immoral held up against a perfect standard. Are they choosing hatred, or is the illness choosing hatred for them? There is a difference, just as cancer chooses the tumour for you. Cancer requires extensive treatment to 'cure', but you are never really cured. You go into remission.

I agree 100% with your advice about documentation. We don't know what they will do next (neither do they, BTW :-)), so documenting everything is wise and responsible.

Honesty in therapy is absolutely required, but I actually don't give a hoot anymore whether mine goes to therapy, jumps on her head or spits bullets. I have decided I want an intimate relationship with nurturing, mutual respect, and reciprocation of kindness.

[thereishope]

I know where you are coming from. It seems so easy to see that someone is borderline. But it is so difficult to get a grasp on what to do with it. If you are in a fog, then imagine other people who look in on your relationship. They won't be able to distinguish who is the hateful one. It will look like mutual combat. So start documenting everything now so that if you do decide to leave, you can clearly state your case to the judge. As far as religion, maybe look at 1 John 3:8... .

Also, we can practice so many boundary strategies, but they are the mentally ill ones. They need to be cured through open honesty in therapy. If they will not do that, then they will always be borderline. We are not doctors. I feel it's best to cut them loose until they look at themselves and search for help by themselves. If it is meant to be, they will come back cured. If it is not, then a heartbreak only lasts for so long. We will heal.

Gloria... .I too, appreciate your black and white answers.  It is pretty clear, when not clouded by FOG, isn't it?

I have to agree that all of I John 3 states things pretty bluntly.  We would be amiss if we did not consider these things.  Thank you for sharing it with me.  I hadn't "stumbled upon" that passage yet, although I'm sure God led you to share it with me... .  Thanks again for your taking time to share your insights with us. 

[Gloria_Patch]

... .well, hopefully she won't spit bullets. Because you'll be the first one shot.

Yea, that's a tough one. I think borderlines can vary a little. I had a therapist suggest to me that my husband' s borderline may co-exist with antisocial personality disorder. I read up on it. And it says 15% of borderlines are also sociopaths and 15% are also narcissists... .But I don't think my husband is a sociopath. But as more time passes, and I have separated myself from the situation,  I start to waiver over whether he really is a sociopath.

But I don't think so. I had a mother who had paranoia in my late teens, and I saw a loving person display no empathy. You see, they are on the battlegrounds of WWIII.

But, I don't know. It's a tough question. I do know that they won't think twice about leaving us as a casuality. Actually, I think deep down, they desire to ruin us. I truly feel that if I died, he wouldn't even lose his appetite. Actually,  he would be happy. I was watching an interview with Eminem's Kim. At one point, he did something cruel, and she attempted suicide. He went for custody.

The cruelity. The hatred. I don't know. It feels more sinister than mental illness only.

[Moselle]

I'm thinking of sticking silencer on there, so she doesn't wake the neighbours when she spits 

Look I'm as angry as the next one. I'm still working on how to manage the deep anger I feel for all of this. Anger at her, anger at her parents.

A few days ago I read a post by Aussie JJ, which actually tempered me significantly. It's on the divorce board, but I've quoted a bit from it. it a very good read for anyone involved in this but here's a (fairly long) excerpt. I've corrected the spelling for him (hint, I can be a perfectionist too). But this opened my eyes a bit to how they became this. It's titled ":)o pwBPD know when we are onto them?"

I began to have a bit of compassion, not a lot mind you :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------

How does this dynamic occur or develop on a pwBPD, or cluster B in general... .  I'll touch on NPD and BPD that I have been reading a lot on. 

Between the ages of 2-8 approximately (differs child to child), children have what's refereed to as primary narcissism.  This is where children have significant physical and emotional needs, which they are dependant on their primary caregiver to meet.  As they grow older, children focus their energy on the world around them and grow out of this 'primary narcissism' where they don't feel the compulsion to mirror their primary care giver to have those emotional and physical needs met.  This is part of the psychological growth process.  They become aware, accepting of what is around them in the world, many different objects that they can interact with.  This develops empathy in a person, the ability to put oneself in another's shoes and relate to their circumstances. 

During this developmental stage of growing out of their primary narcissism children often 'regress' when in stressful situations, a toddler cries a lot more than a 6 year old.  When a 6 year old is hurt or under stress they regress to their primary narcissism, cry act out to seek attention, mirror the object to be soothed.  The primary care giver is attentive and encourages this behaviour, constantly jumping up and running over and always soothing the child, they learn that it is acceptable, it is a valid coping mechanism to survive in the world.  This child wont grow beyond this primary narcissism, it will develop and become a part of them into adulthood.  This leads to someone with NPD.  Over cared for, over indulged, they believe they are everything and if they don't get their way, a tantrum erupts.  Empathy never develops, it is only them that is ever correct, others don't matter, they are always right, when they say something, mummy always says its ok. 

During this same developmental stage of growing out of the primary narcissism for a pwBPD they don't get that soothing, they tend to be neglected.  They learn that it isn't acceptable to feel, act out, express emotions, when they do they get nothing in return.  They shut-down as there is no reward from their primary care giver to be open with what they are feeling, and they get ignored.  Their emotions are never developed (validated) as they are always suppressed.  The primary care giver to this child is often distant, inattentive and pre-occupied with something else, the child learns that they are not important, they have to constantly be on guard and mirror to survive and not express their pain.  Not develop, not grow psychologically.  Just stay in a stagnant state to survive.  They don't relate to anything other than what that primary caregiver, often mummy is doing at that very point in time, no outside objects, no ability to empathise. 

As they grow, the emotions that they are suppressing are growing as well, often by the time children are 12 (particularly pwBPD) some  of the coping mechanisms are present, some of the acting out is present.  Why, they are in the outside world, school, they cant cope, to many things to mirror, to many variations, it all keeps changing so fast, they can't keep up, too many mirrors to maintain.  Something has to give and it cant be the other people, those other people don't care for them, they don't soothe them they have to do this themselves. 

So the pwBPD learns to give, learns to sooth, cuts to release endorphins, gets a instant rush to sooth the constant mirroring that they have to do, to keep up with all the different objects around them.  At home there was only one object they had to be careful around only one object they had to be ignored by, and mirror to maintain the peace. 

To get away from all of these objects, this child, even though they may be 15, 18 or even 30 now only wants ONE primary object, one primary caregiver.  They are sexually active as often this leads to the object latching on, instant loyalty, instant attachment from the object that opens up and is easier for them to mirror to stay safe.  This isn't an emotive process for them but a coping skill to get a figure to mirror, to be loyal. 

People with BPD and NPD are in a constant state of regression where they haven't developed psychologically.  They have different ways of acting out, expressing their needs and having them met. 

To someone with NPD, to invalidate them is to cause their emotions that were always validated to be stung, it is like whipping a kid.  The pain is instant and their reaction instant emotional raise of the cards, the louder they scream that they are correct the more likely it will be heard.  THEY ARE RIGHT MUMMY ALWAYS SOOTHED THEIR WANTS AND NEEDS.  As someone with NPD how they feel and they wont be able to stop talking. 

To  someone with BPD, to invalidate them is to cause them to suppress emotions even further, to have these emotions build up more and more.  They can't express them because NO-ONE CARES, they have to give way and not be open for you to love them, for themselves to feel safe.  This child when given a beating wasn't soothed and had to suppress those feelings.  They have to be a mirror to be safe, no feelings, nothing other than that one safe object.  Ask someone with BPD how they feel about something and they will clam up, wont be able to speak, they are not allowed to have emotions, they are suppressed.  You will get a cryptic answer to test out how you feel about it. Then they can mirror you.

[Moselle]

But, I don't know. It's a tough question. I do know that they won't think twice about leaving us as a casuality. Actually, I think deep down, they desire to ruin us. I truly feel that if I died, he wouldn't even lose his appetite. Actually,  he would be happy. I was watching an interview with Eminem's Kim. At one point, he did something cruel, and she attempted suicide. He went for custody.

The cruelity. The hatred. I don't know. It feels more sinister than mental illness only.

Have a look at this. I posed this statement "Its amazing how all is suddenly forgiven now that it suits her, and she's oblivious to the damage she has done."  in one of my posts entitled "Recycled no more" and this was Rapt reader's response after staying with her BPD spouse for 30 years:

I used to feel like you do now: Its amazing how all is suddenly forgiven now that it suits her, and she's oblivious to the damage she has done. That was a mistake for me to obsess over that; it put off our happiness in the marriage for quite a few years actually. What I've found is that no, he wasn't oblivious to the damage he had done. In fact, he was so overwhelmed with shame over that, that he had to tamp it down to a place inside of him where he wasn't depressed and forlorn about it 24/7. He needed to do that in order to function and actually have any semblance of a happy life, especially with me still in that life.

Eventually, I learned that I needed to give him the gift of my forgiveness, and letting the angst and anger and pain go. I let it all go out of me, and into the Universe to make better... .And in the end it was a gift to me, too. I now have a happy marriage and good life. This outcome can be realistic, because I have lived it. But it wasn't easy getting here  wink

[Gloria_Patch]

Oh yea, I heard it described as childhood post traumatic stress disorder. But, I think most prisoners can relate also.

But, I have an aquaintance who is a borderline female. She's diagnosed. She is getting her masters in psychology. She really seems like a decent person. She gave me a lot of insight on borderline. Her advice to me was to give him a chance for therapy. If he treats it like a game or doesn't go, cut him loose. By the way, my friend has a psychologist and a psychiatrist, and she still cuts. But, I think she has a capacity for unselfish love.

Maybe the test is: is your girlfriend a good person in general? Does she genuinely seem to feel for others (outside of you)? Does she admire compassionate people, celebrities who are known for charity or historical figures known for kindness?

And beware. Their little outbursts are not harmless. You may find yourself fighting a domestic violence charge? My husband and his mother called child services on me when my baby (only child) was 5 weeks old, because I kicked him out. They said I bruised the baby. A complete lie.

And I tell you, for a year, 90% of the time, my husband was a sweet, considerate, loving person. And he just SPLIT for a job change... .And relapsed. So, it could be alcoholism combined.

But there's actually a book about divorcing borderlines.

[Moselle]

My friend has a psychologist and a psychiatrist, and she still cuts.

Maybe the test is: is your girlfriend a good person in general? Does she genuinely seem to feel for others (outside of you)? Does she admire compassionate people, celebrities who are known for charity or historical figures known for kindness?

And beware. Their little outbursts are not harmless. You may find yourself fighting a domestic violence charge? My husband and his mother called child services on me when my baby (only child) was 5 weeks old, because I kicked him out. They said I bruised the baby. A complete lie.

And I tell you, for a year, 90% of the time, my husband was a sweet, considerate, loving person. And he just SPLIT for a job change... .And relapsed. So, it could be alcoholism combined.

But there's actually a book about divorcing borderlines.

Hey GP,

I can see you've got a very tight grasp on this stuff. Thanks for sharing it all. It's helping me on my journey through the BPD tunnel.

What do you mean "she still cuts" ?

Is she a good person? I thought she was, but perhaps as Aussie JJ explains, she's just mirroring me (blush :-)) I have asked myself and my family who know her. ":)o you think she's malicious?", and I can say no, and so did they.

My Mother in Law, has ALL the traits, and she is certainly duplicitous and devious. She has definitely been spurring my wife on, to do all the hurtful things she has done during the separation. So mine teamed up with her mother too, just like yours!

The book's called "Splitting", and I'm doing ALL the stuff in there to protect myself in the event that she goes hostile. Particularly document, document, document!

[Gloria_Patch]

Yes, that was the book I read when I was pregnant. No need to thank me for sharing. It is therapeutic for me. It is a difficult disease to understand. Others do not get it.

By cutting, I mean she self-mutiliates.

[Moselle]

Others do not get it.

By cutting, I mean she self-mutiliates.

No they don't get it do they? And when I've tried to explain they look at me like I'm an alien. I've given that up now :-) But it is a lonely road. TG 4 BPDfam!

Self mutilation. That's hectic. My uBPDw's sister does that. Is it specific for BPD? or does it apply to other mental illnesses too?

[Gloria_Patch]

Yea, I just say my husband was an alcoholic. If I describe it a little more, they may suggest he is bipolar. I kind of just describe it as, "He has two personalities, and I don't think they know the other one exists."

Cutting is BPD trait. I think more so for females. And suicide is a real possibility - again for females. The males actually more aggressive outwards and can kill. My husband's uncle is in prison for killing his wife. The other committed suicide.

My friend also stated that 60-70% of people with BPD have been sexually abused as children. I feel like my husband was abused. He doesn't have any pedophilia type traits at all. But, there issomething perverse about his hatred. And, "some men want to see the whole world burn." The longer I've been separated from him, the more I feel he is capable of anything. He might not abuse our son, but he'll hand him over to whomever it is. There is something I don't trust about a person who doesn't accept responsibility, they are capable of anything.

When they do something a little bad, they throw it all to hell. All or nothing. Once my husband's mother called child services, he really SPLIT. And, once that boundary is crossed, it's a FLOOD like no other... .

[thereishope]

If I describe it a little more, they may suggest he is bipolar. I kind of just describe it as, "He has two personalities, and I don't think they know the other one exists."

My friend also stated that 60-70% of people with BPD have been sexually abused as children. I feel like my husband was abused. He doesn't have any pedophilia type traits at all. But, there issomething perverse about his hatred. And, "some men want to see the whole world burn." The longer I've been separated from him, the more I feel he is capable of anything. He might not abuse our son, but he'll hand him over to whomever it is. There is something I don't trust about a person who doesn't accept responsibility, they are capable of anything.

When they do something a little bad, they throw it all to hell. All or nothing. Once my husband's mother called child services, he really SPLIT. And, once that boundary is crossed, it's a FLOOD like no other... .

You could be writing about my uBPDh... .I appreciate your insights.  I want a more realistic view of reality... .It's hard to grasp, living in the center of the vortex... .:/

[Moselle]

All this talk of mirroring by Aussie JJ, got me thinking. I spoke to My uBPDw today and decided that I wouldn't initiate conversation and wouldn't fill uncomfortable pauses with my voice to see what would happen.

Well nothing really happened, no conversation, lots of uncomfortable pauses. And she ended the conversation by asking "why are you mad at me?" I replied, "I'm just listening, would you like to say something?" She said "no" and hung up.  Bizarre. If I look back I always initiated a new topic of conversation during our marriage unless it was a money request or setting me up for a money request,  my wife has not volunteered her opinion.

I've been talking to my reflection for 14 years. Help?

[gtrhr]

Averyon, that's an eye opening experiment.  I've done a similar one before and the results are pretty disappointing like you talked about.

I have been seeing and talking to my ex gf some in recent weeks.  But when it comes to who is really putting forth an effort to make things work, show enthusiasm to talk or share - it's very once sided.  She won't do the minimum level to try.  She wants me to stay forever in the mode of "winning her heart" and she can forever stay in the mode playing "hard to get."  The game isn't any fun because the good times seem fewer and further in between.  Nowadays so many years into it I really don't prompt her as much as I used to.  And so it's obvious she doesn't have the desire to be together.

The other night it felt like you described.  I was really pumped up about a concert I had just seen, texting her, and by the end she was saying she wanted to go next time the artist was in town.  The whole night though I thought how if she really meant what she told me going back even 2 months ago, we would have been able to go together in the present moment!  Not some far away time.  As it was I had a ticket I had bought many months ago and didn't even attempt to exchange and get seats for the two of us.  She hasn't been giving the level of friendship to warrant me even making the attempt.  When you adopt the position that you don't have to entertain them, and be the one to keep things going things so quickly fall apart.

[thereishope]

Averyon, that's an eye opening experiment.  I've done a similar one before and the results are pretty disappointing like you talked about.

I have been seeing and talking to my ex gf some in recent weeks.  But when it comes to who is really putting forth an effort to make things work, show enthusiasm to talk or share - it's very once sided.  She won't do the minimum level to try.  She wants me to stay forever in the mode of "winning her heart" and she can forever stay in the mode playing "hard to get."  The game isn't any fun because the good times seem fewer and further in between.  Nowadays so many years into it I really don't prompt her as much as I used to.  And so it's obvious she doesn't have the desire to be together.

The other night it felt like you described.  I was really pumped up about a concert I had just seen, texting her, and by the end she was saying she wanted to go next time the artist was in town.  The whole night though I thought how if she really meant what she told me going back even 2 months ago, we would have been able to go together in the present moment!  Not some far away time.  As it was I had a ticket I had bought many months ago and didn't even attempt to exchange and get seats for the two of us.  She hasn't been giving the level of friendship to warrant me even making the attempt.  When you adopt the position that you don't have to entertain them, and be the one to keep things going things so quickly fall apart.

This is very interesting. I have been the initiator of the vast majority of our communication as well. I find myself wanting to see what happens if I just stop.

I think the wording of the BPD SO wanting us to stay "forever winning their heart" while they "forever play hard to get" is spot on. It has definitely been my experience with uBPDh.

[Gloria_Patch]

Interesting... .I know they advise that if you want to break up with a BPD to be as boring as possible.  They will lose interest. A few times, I asked my husband what he wanted to do with his life - like what was his dreams and aspirations occupation-wise, and he looked at me blankly.

But as for him, he did have his own type of music. And he was obssessed with atheism. Although that may be because his mother is a fake Christian zealot and borderline. One time, she was like "b---ch b---ch b---ch" and other more vulgar curses as if she had turrets and then she was like "I'm going go church and pray for you." And I was shocked and said,, "Where? Church of Satan?"

But I wouldn't practice many games with them, bc mentally ill people are hypersensitive, it could cause them to split... .

One thing I wonder is if you just plain said, "I am uncomfortable with your morality. It seems the only morality you have is 'What is best for me right now?'" ... .as Averyon pointed out.

But I think I know the answer. If they split white, they will say, "I love you more than anything. Of course I want what is best for you?" Or if they split black, they will say, "I wonder that about you."

[Gloria_Patch]

Orrrrr... .what if you told them you think you have borderline personality disorder, and start describing how you feel from a borderline perspective (after reading up on a few first hand accounts of a borderline)?

[Moselle]

Orrrrr... .what if you told them you think you have borderline personality disorder, and start describing how you feel from a borderline perspective (after reading up on a few first hand accounts of a borderline)?

GP I'd love to do this. The risk is, they have a memory like an elephant. It would come out in a dysregulation. "You confessed that you were borderline... ."

Bold though, and I think I could just blow it off like "only a doctor diagnoses that, I was experimenting with something to test your response if I said I was borderline"

Ooh, I just thought of another, "Let's go get tested psychologically to determine if we both are borderline?" I think we "ready know her answer to that one. LOL

[Gloria_Patch]

Yea, or she'll know you're talking about her... .And, yes, she will use it as weapon against her.

I remember what kind of stopped him, for some reason, was when I said, "I am getting too old for this."

Or, "Why do you make everything so ugly? It could never be two people in love? You always had to make the relationship so ugly?"

Or, "We both can't both be normal and we both can't be crazy. One of us is crazy."

If I said the last one, oddly, he never responded by, "You're crazy. "

Lastly, "I am not the first person you have called "insert name", so either multiple people you've met are "blank" it's you."

All those statements tended to pause him or stop him. What I never did... .but what may work is, saying, "You're mother was born in the 60s or 50s. You're grandmother in the 30s... .But this is 2014... .With all the advances in medicine, neuroscience and psychology, there is no reason why a person should not get assistance. There is a cure. There is hardly any stigma. Get cured."

[Gloria_Patch]

Or simply, "If you loved me, you'd get help." And say it over and over again, especially when they are split white.