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They don't feel guilt. They feel shame. Guilt is when we do something bad and fail. A specific event. Shame is when THEY themselves are bad. Shame is the most intense emotion a human can feel. And at the core of BPD it's often said this is the root. I noticed that in order to reach my BPD I had to be very specific and calm. Dictate back to them what they had just said to hurt me and ask them, why would you say that? Zero hint of emotion. If I did that, it reached her. And although I never got an apology, I know those were the rare moments I got through her MASSIVE defense shield and she briefly saw that she was wrong. I always knew because she would not lash out, she would remain quiet and the symptoms would subside. But even then it never stops. It's a no win situation because if you reach their core too many times you do nothing but trigger them to feel more shame. So in essence they become an even lower functioning BPD because they feel so god awful about themselves and you won't even pleasure them with a rage attack back in your own defense so they can paint themselves the victim. The death of a BPD relationship where the non wins is through indifference. No emotion. Never biting back. But who wants to live as a punching bag in order to "win" Nobody. I think your significant other knew very well what he did to you. That's why they disassociate with it. Rewrite history, change facts. THAT in itself is proof they know. If they were truly evil and hurt you and wanted to they would just say, yep I did that and yep I meant it. But they never do. They change the way it happened. That's their defenses in action. That shame they feel at their core comes from childhood neglect. They were not loved, or shunned, or treated so poorly by someone they idealized, that they felt they themselves were not lovable rather than discretion that it was the fault of the parent. That shame drives their toxicity today. And they protect that pain like Fort Knox. He is aware he did it, as a child learned to refuse to process it, and along the way has grown incapable of comprehending it. It's as if that part of his inner self is a sealed off bunker, that even he himself no longer remembers where he stashed the key. To a non, this is one of the hardest yet most liberating things. You as a sane rational, compassionate, whole person can't process his cruelty, but you don't have to. All you need to begin to heal is to comprehend the complexity of his condition, and the full awareness that IT WAS NOT PERSONAL.

Nice anxiety5, good understanding.

Very well said. Let me add that if you get them to the point of feeling shame you had better sleep with one eye open and be mindful of the fact that if they are high functioning, they will never forget what you just did to them.

Hell of a good post.  I agree completely.  My BPD rewrote history to suit her own defenses.  And I experienced the same thing - every so often I knew I'd gotten around her (massive) defenses and she could actually hear me.  But the moment never lasted.  She never professed guilt - quite the opposite, actually - about things she'd done in the past ("There's no yesterday!" or "I don't feel guilty about having an affair with you because we're not having one anymore!" but shame... .that was another story.  A cracked and unstable foundation upon which she'd tried to build a life.  The more she knew that I could see through to the terribly wounded and shamed little kid inside - the worse things got.  Theoretically I could have been her greatest friend and ally (and I was), but that's ultimately made me her worst enemy. 

I'm getting beyond the "taking it personally" phase - and it hasn't been easy - but I see the twisted logic of the situation for what it is. 

Agreed... .They are not evil in that send, just disordered and pathologically self centered...

But at the end of the day, they behave in callous and malicious ways, and their defense mechanisms actually cause more harm to their victims. They are evil, just not intentionally so

does it matter if it was intentional or not ? i find no difference of abuse between being in a r\s with a BPD or aspd from the recipient aspect (actually i started a thread regarding this topic). abuse is abuse. period. i think its time not to give them excuses and delve into what is going on in their own heads. its time to focus on ourselves and what we want out of this. forget them. it is you that matters.

If someone lying in a hospital bed, terminally ill and in pain, was rude to nurses and said shtty things to their family members, it wouldn't be OK, but it would be clear why they're doing it; they're in survival mode and flailing against the world.  It's helpful to think of borderlines the same way.

I did receive a letter of apology from my exBPDgf the same day I caught her lying and cheating. While her letter did not acknowledge the hurt she had caused, I did feel that it contained an expression of her shame ... ."There is no excuse for what I have done."

She then proceeded to ask for my forgiveness which I guess would have helped resolve the additional shame this had caused. When she did not receive a response or reaction her behaviors escalated to resembled what is labeled an "extinction burst"

Great post. You hit the nail on the head. Kudos!

When I caught her cheating, she lied about it, threw a tantrum and the way I got her to come around was by refusing to acknowledge it. If you ever suspect them of infidelity you can't rage at them (even though you want to and it's deserved) Not only does that produce shame, it's THE EXACT same shame that created them. It's that shame of being in "trouble" from a parent. Just a piece of advice. The best way is to refuse to listen to any excuses she offers. And say something like this. Look, I know things were chaotic in both our lives when this was going on. But you know me. You know I'm not a stupid person. I know something happened. I'm going to give you one more opportunity to just tell me the truth right now and I promise I will hear you out."  She told me.

Some classic and twilight zone moments I recall during the ordeal that followed:

When I was upset, she raged at me and told me that "I had no reason to complain about her cheating on me, because she had been through a divorce and that was 10 times more stressful."  -WoW.

A couple weeks later when I was trying to work through things and she was in heavy win me over mode, she turned to me and said "You are going to have all the power now" It was a sad voice, almost like she was upset that she lost leverage.

When she switched into hyper physical mode to try and win me back, during one particular crazy time we were together she said in my ear "What I did somehow made this hotter didn't it"  Whoa

She also basically after a week, demanded I get over it. She would fly off the handle if I wanted to talk about anything regarding it. She said that she refuses to be defined by what she did. She was having a break down.

Looking back I can see that this all created that shame feeling in her which she could not tolerate.

I wonder how many times she has cheated in previous relationships. I would be willing to bet countless. It just so happens my ex cheated on me so I'm intently keen on picking up mixed signals. When someone is acting off, It's as if my brain instantaneously does a comparison of your behavior vs. how you typically act. I lived with what I discovered was a pathological liar previously so I sadly became wired to sniff out bs 10 steps ahead. Never show her in facial expression you are on to it, be nicer. Give her enough rope to hang herself.  I NEVER checked on her ever one single solitary time until the night when nothing added up, and I drove by her house and her car was gone. I text her at 2am, wow. Nothing else. I saw the little dots from an iphone pop up, go down, pop up, go down. She was freaking out. I went home. She tried to text me like 5 times. I did not answer except when she asked if I was up and I said "yep" An hour later I drove by and her car was there. They aren't very bright. I added up a bunch of stories she told me, all at a time when she started to devalue me and push me away, she picked a fight with me to get out of plans that night and told me she was going to bed at 7pm. This is someone who normally goes to bed at 12 or 1. It was so ridiculous, I just said "ok" and drove over there hours later all the while knowing her car would be gone. That's how sure I was.

My story of catching her is very similar anxiety5. She never expected me to follow my gut instinct after 5 years of being together and trusting her lies despite the advice of friends.

Control was also a big issue for my exBPDgf as well. She told me that she had planned on telling me everything but almost a week later when she could spend the day with me. Why would someone that exerts so much energy into being a good person admit to something that would make them look bad and add more shame? I am sure she had already planned to tell me a mixture of half truths and lies that would make me feel guilty for not trusting, accept and expect to be punished for my disobedience and work extra hard to get back in her good graces.

Her well made plans were destroyed when I caught her and her actions since then let me know that I took her control and left her to deal with what she did.

Meh, there's no moral equivocation there. What you said is as valid is me saying a guy who was molested as a child gets a pass for growing up to be a pedophile.

At some point treating decent people right, with empathy and compassion is the responsibility of any adult. Failure to meet that responsibility can have causes, but not excuses.

i had the same experience. when i caught my ex cheating, he IMMEDIATELY - without even a second to stop and think - told me the most ridiculous lie / excuse. i calmly told him i didn't believe him and refused to participate in his meltdown / tantrum. about an hour later he text me: "so you're just gonna be mad and ignore me now?" very childlike response.

I didn't say borderlines get a pass, in fact I said it's not OK, although it's clear why they behave the way they do when we understand the disorder.  And can you hold someone responsible for things they literally aren't capable of?

if you aren't holding them responsible, then you are giving them a pass , at least from my perspective.

And yes, imo they are capable of behaving a lot less selfishly...   it may be more difficult, just like a naturally overweight person has a harder time staying fit, but it's possible

ANXIETY 5

When I found out she was cheating she said" You have all the power now." I had no idea what that meant! I just found out she was cheating and I had all the power? Strange, very strange.

Another tme, when I first met her, I realize now I was the new replacement as she ditched her old partner. After we had sex she said she also had sex with him that morning and replied, its a turn on having two different male sperm in my body.

Did the red flag go up? No... should have though.

|iiii

Yeah, you're right, and when it's clear a partner is incapable of being responsible sustainably, it's best to leave and use the experience to grow, which is what we're doing here.

A couple times my ex apologized for lying and cheating on me. But only after she lied about it for a month. I then told her that I had proof and she finally fessed up. A few days later I told her that I forgive her. And her reply was, "I didn't ask you to forgive me". I was like, What the heck? Did you really just say that to my face? Kind of surreal to hear that, like I was in a reality TV show or something, lol... .

A very good post OP.

It is a shame how we are taught every human being is important, and they all live highly complex lives with their own families and roles in society... .

... .only to find out some of them can be summed up by three words and told to avoid them like poisonous snakes in Arizona.

Wow. The fact mine said the same thing. Wow. I know with my girlfriend, she had narcissistic traits as well for sure. In fact at first, I thought she was a narcissist. It wasn't until a therapist showed me that her crazy rampage outbursts made her borderline and that not all narcissists are borderlines but all borderlines are narcissists so it's easy to confuse the two. But I think her narcissism of thinking she is entitled and above rules, along with smarter and more cunning, she assumed she'd get away with whatever she wanted. The comment about power when I reflect back, could be translated like this to me now. "You are in control of this relationship. I feel I need to chase you, vs. the way I like it, you chasing me. I've lost leverage. You're on to me. You discovered I'm not perfect. My grandiosity is temporarily in danger. I will need to cover my tracks better, seduce you again and get you under my spell so I can feel better and retake control again"

And also, mine said the same exact thing to me about 2 guys in the same day. Thank god I never contracted anything. She also was very verbal in bed. All her fantasies of what turned her on involved control/power. Us not being together in the future and me leaving who I was with to be with her. etc. The sex became mechanical too. After about 5 months it sucked. She is the only girl I've ever met that hated foreplay, she would never initiate it. It only involved one position. And it was over when she was satisfied. I was a prop to her to get off basically.

Anxiety5, could you explain this further?

After a fight, she'd say... .if we ever break up, and you met someone else in the future and were dating her, and I called you what would you do, would you meet up with me? Obviously wanting me to say yes, I would and she got more into it.

That's what happened to me. Eventually I reached that point but after a couple of months being like this with her I asked myself what is the point of being with someone that I feel indifferent to. Basically the only way to be in functional relationship with a pwBPD is to not to be in a relationship with them - When you are indifferent you are not in a relationship.

They are a walking paradox - their middle name is Catch 22. At times it felt I was a carer that was indifferently working for an ill patient at a hospital - trying to see it all from a detached place. Can this work? Call me selfish but I realised at that point that i want more for myself than spending the rest of my life like this. So there is no win even if you reach a state of indifference - at least for a reasonable person that's not winning. For me 'winnning' would have been to have a harmonious relatioship with her. The result for me was not winning - just not losing so much.

In my case, I could present my exBPDgf with phone records, emails (she would leave them up on her screen), and a whole host of other evidence of her lying, and she would still deny it. Instead, she would turn the tables faster than I could blink about how I was invading her privacy, I was controlling, I was "sick," toxic" and "pathological" (her words, not mine), etc., etc... .Truly, even in the face of all sorts of evidence, she would still deny. In fact, the more I spoke reason and presented her with facts, the more unhinged she would become. It's only after months of detachment that I can marvel at this, and begin to feel compassion for myself for what I endured.

Yeah, mine said that $hit too. About how she was pissed off because I invaded her privacy and "stalking and hacking her $hit". I was like, "HUH? What the heck, you let another guy put his penis inside of you and you're talking about me reading your facebook messages?" What's wrong with your train of thought? I guess that train derailed long ago... .

You sees he was right though you did have all the power back.

What I have began to understand is my ex began cheating when she felt enfulfed and powerless. She had been dysregulation often because i was busy and not spending as much time with her doing fun stuff.  She felt powerless then all of a sudden she had this tremendous power over me. That is when she cheated. She cheated to regain her sense of control over me. I couldn't put my finger on it but I just all of a sudden from one day to the next felt this huge shift in power in her favor.

When I found out she cheated her source of the power was exposed but I was so deep in the fog I thought it could be worked out. In reality it was exactly at that point I had the power to walk away and shame her.  She would have then chased me because she wanted back that control over herself she felt she lost if I had just left.

Deep down they are an extreme form of invert narcisist. They want to have power then have it all taken away and try to gain it back.

I love your posts Anxiety5. Except the "don't take it personal" part. I do take having my feelings ripped up and stomped into the dirt extremely personal. Even when it's done by a rabid laughing hyena of a BPD damaged ex gf.

When I found out she cheated her source of the power was exposed but I was so deep in the fog I thought it could be worked out. In reality it was exactly at that point I had the power to walk away and shame her.  She would have then chased me because she wanted back that control over herself she felt she lost if I had just left.

Deep down they are an extreme form of invert narcisist. They want to have power then have it all taken away and try to gain it back. [/quote]
My exBPDgf is much smoother in her baiting tactics. After catching her I told her I never wanted to see or talk to you again. The last line of her letter of apology said ... .I will do my best to stay out of your sight. Instead of chasing or stalking, she is attempting to bait me by communicating through a friend of mine. I am sure that one day I will hear how she respected my last requests that day!

My exBPDgf is much smoother in her baiting tactics. After catching her I told her I never wanted to see or talk to you again. The last line of her letter of apology said ... .I will do my best to stay out of your sight. Instead of chasing or stalking, she is attempting to bait me by communicating through a friend of mine. I am sure that one day I will hear how she respected my last requests that day![/quote]
My ex is subtle too. If I left she would probably bait me back to through mutual friends facebook posts that she knew would trigger me as just the same sort of tactics she used to gas light me when the relationship ended. My ex was very covert in her gas lighting from a distance. Very covert. She used our network of mutual friends to gaslight me using memes on fb. She would tell me one thing do another and tell her friends a complete other story then the friends would put up the memes and another mutual friend would tell me another thing. It drove me insane.

Ha, sounds so similar to how mine played out. I caught her cheating and went ballistic. Called her every slut word in the book. She drove straight to my house and begged and pleaded. Her only rage with me. She cried for hours and begged me for forgiveness and would not let me out of her sight. I repeated over and over that she was only sorry because she got caught. She said she wanted to kill herself.  That was the the only time she ever said anything like that. A day later she acted like what she had done was no big deal and when I brought up the fact that I couldn't stay with her she used sex as a weapon. Relationship was done.

It's clear now after a year of figuring things out that she was never who I made her out to be. She was a horrible person disguised as someone I wanted her to be. She is a bad person who does horrible things to people. It is not acceptable because she is aware that it's wrong. She might think twice about her actions if she were held more accountable. I truly feel sorry for anyone who gets involved with her in the future.

Your ability to remove yourself in a healthy way, and respect yourself so much is admirable. I stayed in it. It's not so much I was afraid to be alone. It's just the fact that this girl is drop dead gorgeous, she's smart, she has a great job, she likes the same stuff as me, she was funny, she was everything. It's almost like having a parent who you have a great relationship telling you they hate you for no reason. You'd be in such shock. That's exactly what it was, shock. Plus, she had the perfect excuse. I was foolish enough to get involved just before the divorce was final, after a month I knew there was unresolved pain there. As a typical codependent trait, I blamed myself. "She is going through hell right now, I just need to stick around until she gets back to normal after the divorce, and I know I'm helping her to do that" (Vomit) I have a bit of martyr in me as well. If generically given the option of sticking something out until the end when she quits, or getting out myself first, I will usually take option A. Blind optimism, idealization, chasing the high and a hope to avoid what if's or regret are what drive that.

Damn though, I should've walked.

Hi Anxiety%,

So glad I read your thread it was excellent and spot on, from the few times, I accidently did what you did and it did calm things, but like you said, until the next event.

I was doing good, but you know our minds want to find a way to put blame on us that we should have handle things a bit differently than we still be together.

So, before I read your thread, I was thinking when she started to accuse or rage, instead of replying with facts or be defensive(since I wanted so much for her to know I could never be that kind of guy) reply with some humor not at her expense but to redirect or just saying hey, do you want to go to dinner and dance tonight.  But what the heck am I thinking.  That's crazy.  Yeah, maybe in spots that might work, and the battle would subside but the war would never end because for her, it can't.

Your thread just reinforced the reality I knew so so well for over 2 years.  We want so much for a solution but there is none.  We are not dealing with someone who can be rational.

It's a personality disorder and to live with it is pure insanity unless they truly seek help and really work at it and even then, as I been reading , it still hard for both.  

Thanks so much for putting me back to reality .  I feel much calmer now.  I know I did my best and in reality that's about the best she could do as well.  Sad!

I love that you said this as it's true for so many of us here. Me too.

I think my ex was as close with me as she could get, because I was so open.

It wasn't a weakness of mine, and there's nothing to be ashamed of.

I like her even more because she took those leaps of faith with me.

I'm damaged, not disordered, and I'm able to change my patterns.

It's much harder for her. She chooses not to. She feels both guilt and shame.

I saw it in her eyes. Best friend or stranger, you can't deny that confirmation.

Why does she continue to call out to her scapegoat? Is she dreaming?

She doesn't really face herself so she could never see me, either.

I appreciate your comment very much. So So So many people on here have done this exact thing for me as well. I guess at it's foundation, that's what this forum is all about. I've gained the same feeling as you. A calm. They say misery loves company, and that saying is usually reserved for negative context, but in our situations we love the company of people who shared our misery. To realize, wow someone miles away dealt with the same situation, patterns, and reflections that I dealt with is a very soothing thing. It reinforces the truth. And that truth, is that there is no answer to this riddle that doesn't compromise some part of us at it's expense. We can view ourselves as fools for attempting this challenge, or perfectly imperfect people who should never feel fault in the fact that we had the courage to try.

my ex would deny deny deny, too - even things he text me! i never understood how words he typed, words i could turn around and show him... .he acted as if it never happened. it still baffles my mind.

Spot on.

Its all shame, and its an exotically rare moment when that shame shield drops and a real conversation can happen.

Can't say anything wrong about them or their actions, it triggers the shame that much more!

It's a nightmare.

I always thought the BPDx was completley shameless but so the fact that she went out of her way to hide the latest pregnancy from me came as a bit of a surprise. I will co-sign on the not feeling guilt part. I dont believe she feels the least bit guilty of all the chaos she's caused and all the lives she's turned upside down.

We share a similar experience. I have 3 kids with ex. She hid the pregnancy from the affair partner. She caused a lot of chaos due to her feelings of shame and guilt due from her actions. She lacks impulse control. She knows what she was doing and felt bad, she had to walk around with those feelings and she went into a dissociative phase.

I'm sorry to hear she turned your life upside down. It gets better.

Hang in there.

--Mutt