They don't feel guilt. They feel shame.

[Waifed]

When I caught her cheating, she lied about it, threw a tantrum and the way I got her to come around was by refusing to acknowledge it. If you ever suspect them of infidelity you can't rage at them (even though you want to and it's deserved) Not only does that produce shame, it's THE EXACT same shame that created them. It's that shame of being in "trouble" from a parent. Just a piece of advice. The best way is to refuse to listen to any excuses she offers. And say something like this. Look, I know things were chaotic in both our lives when this was going on. But you know me. You know I'm not a stupid person. I know something happened. I'm going to give you one more opportunity to just tell me the truth right now and I promise I will hear you out."  She told me.

Some classic and twilight zone moments I recall during the ordeal that followed:

When I was upset, she raged at me and told me that "I had no reason to complain about her cheating on me, because she had been through a divorce and that was 10 times more stressful."  -WoW.

A couple weeks later when I was trying to work through things and she was in heavy win me over mode, she turned to me and said "You are going to have all the power now" It was a sad voice, almost like she was upset that she lost leverage.

When she switched into hyper physical mode to try and win me back, during one particular crazy time we were together she said in my ear "What I did somehow made this hotter didn't it"  Whoa

She also basically after a week, demanded I get over it. She would fly off the handle if I wanted to talk about anything regarding it. She said that she refuses to be defined by what she did. She was having a break down.

Looking back I can see that this all created that shame feeling in her which she could not tolerate.

I wonder how many times she has cheated in previous relationships. I would be willing to bet countless. It just so happens my ex cheated on me so I'm intently keen on picking up mixed signals. When someone is acting off, It's as if my brain instantaneously does a comparison of your behavior vs. how you typically act. I lived with what I discovered was a pathological liar previously so I sadly became wired to sniff out bs 10 steps ahead. Never show her in facial expression you are on to it, be nicer. Give her enough rope to hang herself.  I NEVER checked on her ever one single solitary time until the night when nothing added up, and I drove by her house and her car was gone. I text her at 2am, wow. Nothing else. I saw the little dots from an iphone pop up, go down, pop up, go down. She was freaking out. I went home. She tried to text me like 5 times. I did not answer except when she asked if I was up and I said "yep" An hour later I drove by and her car was there. They aren't very bright. I added up a bunch of stories she told me, all at a time when she started to devalue me and push me away, she picked a fight with me to get out of plans that night and told me she was going to bed at 7pm. This is someone who normally goes to bed at 12 or 1. It was so ridiculous, I just said "ok" and drove over there hours later all the while knowing her car would be gone. That's how sure I was.

Ha, sounds so similar to how mine played out. I caught her cheating and went ballistic. Called her every slut word in the book. She drove straight to my house and begged and pleaded. Her only rage with me. She cried for hours and begged me for forgiveness and would not let me out of her sight. I repeated over and over that she was only sorry because she got caught. She said she wanted to kill herself.  That was the the only time she ever said anything like that. A day later she acted like what she had done was no big deal and when I brought up the fact that I couldn't stay with her she used sex as a weapon. Relationship was done.

It's clear now after a year of figuring things out that she was never who I made her out to be. She was a horrible person disguised as someone I wanted her to be. She is a bad person who does horrible things to people. It is not acceptable because she is aware that it's wrong. She might think twice about her actions if she were held more accountable. I truly feel sorry for anyone who gets involved with her in the future.

[anxiety5]

When I caught her cheating, she lied about it, threw a tantrum and the way I got her to come around was by refusing to acknowledge it. If you ever suspect them of infidelity you can't rage at them (even though you want to and it's deserved) Not only does that produce shame, it's THE EXACT same shame that created them. It's that shame of being in "trouble" from a parent. Just a piece of advice. The best way is to refuse to listen to any excuses she offers. And say something like this. Look, I know things were chaotic in both our lives when this was going on. But you know me. You know I'm not a stupid person. I know something happened. I'm going to give you one more opportunity to just tell me the truth right now and I promise I will hear you out."  She told me.

Some classic and twilight zone moments I recall during the ordeal that followed:

When I was upset, she raged at me and told me that "I had no reason to complain about her cheating on me, because she had been through a divorce and that was 10 times more stressful."  -WoW.

A couple weeks later when I was trying to work through things and she was in heavy win me over mode, she turned to me and said "You are going to have all the power now" It was a sad voice, almost like she was upset that she lost leverage.

When she switched into hyper physical mode to try and win me back, during one particular crazy time we were together she said in my ear "What I did somehow made this hotter didn't it"  Whoa

She also basically after a week, demanded I get over it. She would fly off the handle if I wanted to talk about anything regarding it. She said that she refuses to be defined by what she did. She was having a break down.

Looking back I can see that this all created that shame feeling in her which she could not tolerate.

I wonder how many times she has cheated in previous relationships. I would be willing to bet countless. It just so happens my ex cheated on me so I'm intently keen on picking up mixed signals. When someone is acting off, It's as if my brain instantaneously does a comparison of your behavior vs. how you typically act. I lived with what I discovered was a pathological liar previously so I sadly became wired to sniff out bs 10 steps ahead. Never show her in facial expression you are on to it, be nicer. Give her enough rope to hang herself.  I NEVER checked on her ever one single solitary time until the night when nothing added up, and I drove by her house and her car was gone. I text her at 2am, wow. Nothing else. I saw the little dots from an iphone pop up, go down, pop up, go down. She was freaking out. I went home. She tried to text me like 5 times. I did not answer except when she asked if I was up and I said "yep" An hour later I drove by and her car was there. They aren't very bright. I added up a bunch of stories she told me, all at a time when she started to devalue me and push me away, she picked a fight with me to get out of plans that night and told me she was going to bed at 7pm. This is someone who normally goes to bed at 12 or 1. It was so ridiculous, I just said "ok" and drove over there hours later all the while knowing her car would be gone. That's how sure I was.

Ha, sounds so similar to how mine played out. I caught her cheating and went ballistic. Called her every slut word in the book. She drove straight to my house and begged and pleaded. Her only rage with me. She cried for hours and begged me for forgiveness and would not let me out of her sight. I repeated over and over that she was only sorry because she got caught. She said she wanted to kill herself.  That was the the only time she ever said anything like that. A day later she acted like what she had done was no big deal and when I brought up the fact that I couldn't stay with her she used sex as a weapon. Relationship was done.

It's clear now after a year of figuring things out that she was never who I made her out to be. She was a horrible person disguised as someone I wanted her to be. She is a bad person who does horrible things to people. It is not acceptable because she is aware that it's wrong. She might think twice about her actions if she were held more accountable. I truly feel sorry for anyone who gets involved with her in the future.

Your ability to remove yourself in a healthy way, and respect yourself so much is admirable. I stayed in it. It's not so much I was afraid to be alone. It's just the fact that this girl is drop dead gorgeous, she's smart, she has a great job, she likes the same stuff as me, she was funny, she was everything. It's almost like having a parent who you have a great relationship telling you they hate you for no reason. You'd be in such shock. That's exactly what it was, shock. Plus, she had the perfect excuse. I was foolish enough to get involved just before the divorce was final, after a month I knew there was unresolved pain there. As a typical codependent trait, I blamed myself. "She is going through hell right now, I just need to stick around until she gets back to normal after the divorce, and I know I'm helping her to do that" (Vomit) I have a bit of martyr in me as well. If generically given the option of sticking something out until the end when she quits, or getting out myself first, I will usually take option A. Blind optimism, idealization, chasing the high and a hope to avoid what if's or regret are what drive that.

Damn though, I should've walked.

[outside9x]

Hi Anxiety%,

So glad I read your thread it was excellent and spot on, from the few times, I accidently did what you did and it did calm things, but like you said, until the next event.

I was doing good, but you know our minds want to find a way to put blame on us that we should have handle things a bit differently than we still be together.

So, before I read your thread, I was thinking when she started to accuse or rage, instead of replying with facts or be defensive(since I wanted so much for her to know I could never be that kind of guy) reply with some humor not at her expense but to redirect or just saying hey, do you want to go to dinner and dance tonight.  But what the heck am I thinking.  That's crazy.  Yeah, maybe in spots that might work, and the battle would subside but the war would never end because for her, it can't.

Your thread just reinforced the reality I knew so so well for over 2 years.  We want so much for a solution but there is none.  We are not dealing with someone who can be rational.

It's a personality disorder and to live with it is pure insanity unless they truly seek help and really work at it and even then, as I been reading , it still hard for both.  

Thanks so much for putting me back to reality .  I feel much calmer now.  I know I did my best and in reality that's about the best she could do as well.  Sad!

[myself]

I know I did my best and in reality that's about the best she could do as well.

I love that you said this as it's true for so many of us here. Me too.

I think my ex was as close with me as she could get, because I was so open.

It wasn't a weakness of mine, and there's nothing to be ashamed of.

I like her even more because she took those leaps of faith with me.

I'm damaged, not disordered, and I'm able to change my patterns.

It's much harder for her. She chooses not to. She feels both guilt and shame.

I saw it in her eyes. Best friend or stranger, you can't deny that confirmation.

Why does she continue to call out to her scapegoat? Is she dreaming?

She doesn't really face herself so she could never see me, either.

[anxiety5]

Hi Anxiety%,

So glad I read your thread it was excellent and spot on, from the few times, I accidently did what you did and it did calm things, but like you said, until the next event.

I was doing good, but you know our minds want to find a way to put blame on us that we should have handle things a bit differently than we still be together.

So, before I read your thread, I was thinking when she started to accuse or rage, instead of replying with facts or be defensive(since I wanted so much for her to know I could never be that kind of guy) reply with some humor not at her expense but to redirect or just saying hey, do you want to go to dinner and dance tonight.  But what the heck am I thinking.  That's crazy.  Yeah, maybe in spots that might work, and the battle would subside but the war would never end because for her, it can't.

Your thread just reinforced the reality I knew so so well for over 2 years.  We want so much for a solution but there is none.  We are not dealing with someone who can be rational.

It's a personality disorder and to live with it is pure insanity unless they truly seek help and really work at it and even then, as I been reading , it still hard for both.  

Thanks so much for putting me back to reality .  I feel much calmer now.  I know I did my best and in reality that's about the best she could do as well.  Sad!

I appreciate your comment very much. So So So many people on here have done this exact thing for me as well. I guess at it's foundation, that's what this forum is all about. I've gained the same feeling as you. A calm. They say misery loves company, and that saying is usually reserved for negative context, but in our situations we love the company of people who shared our misery. To realize, wow someone miles away dealt with the same situation, patterns, and reflections that I dealt with is a very soothing thing. It reinforces the truth. And that truth, is that there is no answer to this riddle that doesn't compromise some part of us at it's expense. We can view ourselves as fools for attempting this challenge, or perfectly imperfect people who should never feel fault in the fact that we had the courage to try.

[pieceofme]

In my case, I could present my exBPDgf with phone records, emails (she would leave them up on her screen), and a whole host of other evidence of her lying, and she would still deny it. Instead, she would turn the tables faster than I could blink about how I was invading her privacy, I was controlling, I was "sick," toxic" and "pathological" (her words, not mine), etc., etc... .Truly, even in the face of all sorts of evidence, she would still deny. In fact, the more I spoke reason and presented her with facts, the more unhinged she would become. It's only after months of detachment that I can marvel at this, and begin to feel compassion for myself for what I endured.

my ex would deny deny deny, too - even things he text me! i never understood how words he typed, words i could turn around and show him... .he acted as if it never happened. it still baffles my mind.

[Artisan]

Spot on.

Its all shame, and its an exotically rare moment when that shame shield drops and a real conversation can happen.

Can't say anything wrong about them or their actions, it triggers the shame that much more!

It's a nightmare.

[clydegriffith]

I always thought the BPDx was completley shameless but so the fact that she went out of her way to hide the latest pregnancy from me came as a bit of a surprise. I will co-sign on the not feeling guilt part. I dont believe she feels the least bit guilty of all the chaos she's caused and all the lives she's turned upside down.

[Mutt]

I always thought the BPDx was completley shameless but so the fact that she went out of her way to hide the latest pregnancy from me came as a bit of a surprise. I will co-sign on the not feeling guilt part. I dont believe she feels the least bit guilty of all the chaos she's caused and all the lives she's turned upside down.

We share a similar experience. I have 3 kids with ex. She hid the pregnancy from the affair partner. She caused a lot of chaos due to her feelings of shame and guilt due from her actions. She lacks impulse control. She knows what she was doing and felt bad, she had to walk around with those feelings and she went into a dissociative phase.

I'm sorry to hear she turned your life upside down. It gets better.

Hang in there.

--Mutt