BPDFamily.com

hey stoic 

first of all - my DH was is a similar situation. Idk, but pregnancy trapping seems to be a thing somehow :/...

where I live, the support system is very different i would guess, but there are some thing I want to tell you (as a new wife of someone who has experiences the same fears you are having right now)

1. yes, we also made the experience that mothers are everything to courts and so on. esp. if the BPDmom is someone who's amazing at manipulating, which is a trait that comes with the illness. reading about precedent cases might get you desperate, but there are a few things you can do:

- have everything (!) documented. make a word/excel document which lists EVERYTHING, every conversation, every incident. Also the positive ones! Like "today we met up for a talk about this and that and she was punctual and open-minded" or something like that. make a file with all the papers you get from doctors, courts, child services.

- best way for conversation: E-Mail! neither whatsapp, nor telephone calls, nor text messages will be accepted when it comes to court (at least where we live, that's was child services told us). she might not want to agree, but that's ok (think about what that means for her, having everything in written form). have your attorney tell her to. worked for us.

2. your financial situation WILL definitely become stressed at some points. it is unfair. DH works a lot, SS used to wear only old stuff he wouldn't fit in anymore, and BPDm went from one concert/festival/party to the next with the support she got. thing is: you can't do anything about it. you can only try to make the best out of it. BPDm begged my DH for money like every week for stuff (he broke his CD player, give me money to buy a new one". he said "you get child support, it's all in there, learn to get along with it". it's all about boundaries. if the kiddo needed stuff, we gladly got it for him and kept it at our place. you wouldn't believe how much christmas and bday presents were sold by her shortly after. but when the kid is with you, you can do anything to show him how to get along with the money you have. for SS it was important to see how there's both people in a household working to provide everything we need. it's your chance to be a role model. and if financial things get really nasty, do you have family you can ask for help? at some points we were close to bankrupt and we STILL managed to provide child support (DH having a poorly paid job and me still in traineeship, we were in our early 20ies then) and lead a good life. you will see how you will get through these times :)

3. the woman IS and WILL BE more or less present for the rest of DH's life. the thing is, at a certain point YOU will be able to decide how much you let her be a thorn or how much you care about her trying to damage you. it's a hard thing to learn, we're only just in the middle of it all. the lovely people on this board helped me a lot with it. see her as a kind of scar you got for some poor decision you made which hurts every now and then, but you can keep on living your life and choose not to let the pain ruin your plans. (stupid comparison, but i hope you get the point?) DH and uBPDm ONLY communicate via E-Mail these days, you won't believe how relaxed eveything got.

4. when I see DH and SS toghether, there is no doubt about his fatherhood. they are like identical twins of different ages. sometimes you hear his mother speak when he talks (mostly when it's about finding excuses for anything), but he just IS little DH. you won't believe how relieving it is to see them together as father and son. he's SS' rock in a world he wouldn't otherwise have any chance to grew up and develop in a good way. I'm just daddy's wife, but what we do here is the right thing. provide a save haven in an otherwise distorted reality he grew up with. if SS didn't exist, life would be easier, granted. but now that he's here, he's such a gift to us.

I think being single leaves me at a severe disadvantage. I don't have the emotional support that you provide to your husband, or help with the child. I feel like I'm just going to be her own personal ATM.

if you feel that you're able to do it, go for the full custody!

i can totally understand you feel that way... let me tell you, it's all about boundaries...

i really hope you find someone to support you in all that. there are some stepmoms here who say that the pwBPD in the background made their relationship a stronger one.

do you have any friends woth kids or families in the neighborhood? i know some families who help each other out.

Stoic, I think you are doing a great job here. Boundaries to protect yourself are important.

Knowing what you want and don't want is also important.

This seems to be what you want, but I'm not sure you stated it directly: You don't want a romantic r/s with this woman. Don't want to live with her or move in with her.

You have also stated that you don't want to co-parent with her. There are several possibilities... .only one will happen:

1. A child who is biologically yours is born in ~6 months.

2. A child who is not biologically yours is born in ~6 months.

3. She doesn't have a child. (She could be lying about being pregnant, miscarries, have an abortion, etc.)

4. She does have a child, but gives it up for adoption.

You have no way of knowing yet which way it will go.

Possibility #3 or #4 mean you can be safely done with her. That was easy.

Others have recommended that you force her to prove paternity in court with a DNA test after the child is born. This sounds like your best move.

Possibility #2 means that you can also be safely done with her. The child is in for a rough start at life, but it isn't your problem, and you can easily walk away.

That leaves the last chance, and here you have to make tough choices.

You will likely be financially held responsible for this child's future.

It is your choice whether you want to fight to be involved and give this child as good a life as you can, or not. It won't be easy. It will be a long commitment. It may well be worth making anyway. I have heard you express a lot of fears that your life is over due to this, and I can understand those feelings, but I don't believe it is actually true.

You are young, there is lots of time left in your life for relationships, for your career (and income!) to grow, etc. If you choose to support this child as a parent, knowing that it will be difficult, and that you will have to give up some other things for it, I think you can be very happy and successful, even if you make this choice.

The important thing is that you recognize that you do have choices in how to deal with this situation, and pay attention, and make the choices that fit your values. When you make YOUR choice with an open heart, giving up other things not chosen feels right.

Please don't think that I'm imploring you to make the "right choice" and choose to stay involved and fight for this child in the courts. I'm not. I'm pushing you to acknowledge that it is your choice to make, and know that when you do that you will make the choice that feels right for you, and feel good about your decision 20 years from now.

Life isn't fair.  Family court isn't fair.  It all just IS.  So what to do?  Live life to the full within reasonable constraints, yet focusing more on the positives rather than obsessing on the negatives.  You're obsessing on the possibilities, the negative ones.  That's not productive, you'll just send yourself spinning out of control.  Focus on taking care of yourself for now.

Just as you can't gulp down an entire pint of water in one huge gulp, you can't figure this all out at once.  Take it piece by piece, in manageable chunks that you can handle.

How much input are you getting from your child psychologist relatives?  What do they think of your looping around to long term worries over and over?  They should have a grounding effect on you, calming your fears and worries while gently preparing you for how to deal with potential fatherhood.

I'm sorry that I forgot to thank Grey Kitty for her amazing message.

Okay I am trying to focus on the positives. I am trying to take care of myself foreverdad. I'm so exhausted.

I can barely work, my mind is just spinning and spinning.

I'm sorry that I forgot to thank Grey Kitty for her amazing message. I'm in so much angst, I'm acting selfishly... .

Okay I am trying to focus on the positives. I am trying to take care of myself foreverdad. I'm so exhausted.

I can barely work, my mind is just spinning and spinning.

Im getting a good amount of input from my child psychologist relatives and my therapist and also parents. They all agree that focusing on what's going to happen 5 or 6 months from now is not productive, and that I need to try to be happy and live a fulfilling life.

I don't think I see my therapist enough. Once a week isn't enough for me. I called the domestic violence hotline at work today.

I feel like if I can smooth things over with her, that she won't take my money. I was homeless 4 or 5 months ago due to my business being drained by a bad business partner (eg he stole over 12k and fled the country)... .I clawed my way back to some semblance of financial stability, and now it's all in jeopardy.

I can't handle this roller-coaster anymore. I just want to get off. I was almost there. Now I have to pay this woman all my savings/spending money and live like a poor entrepreneur again, even though I have a really good job? It's because our incomes are so different... .it's so ___ed up.

I just can't win my friend. I know I will survive and be happy again... .but right now it just is all bad. Just feel spirtually sick and tired and don't want to do anything. I don't know how to explain it, but I've been here before and I just can't do this anymore.

I accidently posted within a quote, opps... Anyway, fixed.


In regards to a similar situation, I found things got better once I stopped putting pressure on myself - and taken on issues 'one at a time'.

When I tried to solved all these issues at once, I'd only end up confused and frustrated.

I understand that you are probably extremely angry/disappointed, because you probably had life mapped out a little bit - now things have changed.

But, you don't have to look at this situation as a negative one - sure there are some negative aspects - but overall you still have MANY positive things to look forward to. In my experience, once I started to see some positives and focus on those, I was able to tick off issues one by one - without feeling so much anger, confusion and frustration.

|iiii  Keep putting one foot in front of the other Stoic.

Do it long enough and you will find that you are going someplace worthwhile.

This is my worst nightmare, being forced in to fatherhood by an abusive and controlling woman.

Stealing my money and limiting my financial freedom, and using my healthy desire to keep a family unit together to keep me in the fold.

I feel sick man.

I told her I would pay her what I could afford, but that if she chose to go through the government... .I would quit my job and leave the state and start a business.

I reached out to her and she showed me texts between her and her husband colluding to destroy my reputation together after I called the cops when she was stalking/harassing me.

She cannot be trusted.  Get your RO.  She an say all these things of looking into DBT therapy, listing the father as unknown, but in the end you have no idea what she will do.  Disordered people say a lot of things.  


Do everything you can to protect yourself.  

They won't give me an RO. Maybe just a stalking order.

I agree that immediate legal self-protection is the right thing for you to do. Work with the lawyer to do what you can. If you can't get a RO, get the stalking order. Collect evidence of her behavior that will help you in the future--Your chances of a fair resolution without the courts involved sound negligable. Regulars on this board who've been through the legal system can help you on specific ideas.

I don't see how the stalking order protects me from future events.

Then you say your uncle said to "keep your enemies closer" so there won't be any surprise attacks. Not buying that one either--With BPD, the closer (emotionally) you are to them, the more difficult it is for them to cope, and the more likely they are to dysregulate at you in amazing and bizarre ways.

If you don't know what you want, you are pretty much certain to react to whatever she does. Since she has BPD, her emotions and actions will be flying off in all different directions, and you will be off chasing them all in order.  This won't work well for you.

The cons of applying for a stalking order, is that it will trigger her rejection/abandonment rage and set me up as an adversary in court.

If she gets out of it, I'm dead meat (financially/custody wise)

If i got this sentence right (which I hope) there's some thruth in it, unfortunately.

We had a stalking order against DH's uBPDxgf set up (or at least our lawyer warned her about it if she didn't stop calling at every day and night-tine and yelling and threatening me. After the warning she did stop for a year). In the end, child services used it AGAINST my DH, telling him they didn't feel he was emotionally stable enough for parenting and that they didn't see him providing SS a healthy relationship with his mother (if that's even possible). It's a boundary, but it's also an act of provocation that CAN (!) be used against the one who sets it up.

Still,I live in another part of the world, where this is a case that happens every.single.day.

Remind me... .exactly what happened when you went NC that is so terrifying to you?

Was that the incident where the police got involved? And the source of evidence you could use to get the SO against her?

When I went NC... .she came to my work and "served" me with phony documents. I almost lost my job due to the Traumatic reaction I had, and the commotion it caused. I went to the police, as my boss told me I needed to do something about it. The next day she shows up at my house, and I call the police. She lies to the police about why she is there, and he threatens to arrest her. Police don't like getting lied to and he empathized with my story. He said he would support the stalking order.

I clearly told her to stop contacting me by any means. And she violated those boundaries by phone, text, at my work, and at my home... .and I was afraid for my safety.

Despite that, I backed off the protective order as I thought it would "enflame" the situation... .I feel like that things could cool down, the chances of something more fair are higher. If I keep in touch with her, I can help her correct her faulty thinking patterns... .she's honestly receptive to it to some extent. She wants to be more self aware and curb her behaviors. She's still a professional victim and potentially dangerous, potentially homicidal (her dad hung himself, and her dog was "poisoned" this week?) but it's probably just because she's ill.

-----

Her and her parents threatened me with child support calling me a "SOB" "___" and "idiot". Child support will ruin my quality of life. I make 3 times more money than her, and it will force me in to a roommate situation with no ability to save money. While I am forced to pay the max for her maltreatment of a child.

I was an entrepreneur, and I sacrificed a lot for my goals in my twenties... .only to have the company's account drained by a "malignant narcissist".

So I have no savings, was recently on food stamps and almost homeless... .that is when I met the woman wBPD. She told me she was an "empath" and animal lover. This attracted me to her.

She is higher functioning and has a desire to be good as most people do, but her pattern of manipulation, deceit, and emotional abuse, gaslighting, etc... .is toxic for others, as I'm sure you all know.

She instinctively took advantage of my vulnerability, and I was too ignorant and weak to protect myself. I cried for help to my boss and aunt and uncle... .but my crying fell on deaf ears. I thought if I just made it through a month or two, I could get in to my own place and distance myself, set boundaries, make healthy friendships etc... .

I am in that place now, but can not enjoy it... .because of the impending doom in my life.

I am in the early stages of rebuilding my life. I am in a new town, and have a good job, but few friends and PTSD symptoms.

If she goes for full pop CS, her and I will swap places financially. Due to the fact that I was just almost homeless, I have a rational fear of not having much money. It is truly terrifying as a young man. There is no support here for victims of corporate crimes. I am an entrepreneur, and my dream is to restart my business after a brief period of stability and balance. Ironic, isn't it?

Her "oops" is a premeditated theft, supported by the government. Oregon prides itself in having the most profitable cs system in the country... .and childcare is more expensive here than in any other state.

I don't want to raise a child right now, it's important to me that I am financially and emotionally stable and in the right relationship. It's a huge sacrifice in a terrible economy. I don't have a neurotypical woman to enjoy it with, help. I am smart, ethical, and kind but I am not the most "temporally" responsible person... .(think absent minded professor).

I am lost in thought a lot of the time... .pondering... .creative. I have a wonderful dog, but sometimes I feel I am not as responsive to his needs as I should be... .e.g. more walks, more structure, etc... .I might be too hard on myself, but I am forgetful.

He's loving and wonderful, and happy... .but a little rough around the edges.

I am a dreamer, a thinker, and a worrier probably not ideal as a "nurturer" for a young infant, unfortunately... .but absolutely ideal as a mentor, teacher, father figure. I don't feel responsible for her actions, and I don't feel like focusing all my energies on this moral injustice... .or fighting a battle in which all lose.

Nobody wins in a war. People die on both sides. My chances of winning this war against her are slim. Lawyers who tell me I have a shot at winning, are most likely just trying to make money.

My Aunt and Uncle are both child psychologists, and they feel my chances are very low. Unless she's a drug addict or physically abusive, the family courts here in Oregon feel that mental illness is "stigmatized" and that these women can be good parents. They explained to me that Oregon has a "good enough" policy when deeming fitness for parents.

My Aunt believes that the woman wBPD's psychology won't interfere with her ability to mother in the earliest stages. That as long as she shows love and attention, the infant/baby will not be psychologically damaged. This will probably hold her interest for a couple of years... .as the child becomes older, this woman will lose interest and start looking for abusive men or men to abuse again. This is hopefully when I can get full custody, and hopefully I will have a girlfriend at that point or be ready for full custody on my own and have the resources and energy to engage in a length court battle.

Essentially, what the courts are saying is that unless she's a crack snorting hooker... .she will be deemed fit as a parent. She's higher functioning... .a supervisor at a thrift store.

So going the protective order route, could've have been damaging to me, as I don't want to be in the CS system. Period. It's slavery. I always have the option of just moving away... .I have no real life here... .and the only thing that would become a "tie me down" would be my love for this child that was stolen from me by this sick and emotionally immature woman out of her own desperation to hang on to me. I can find a good job somewhere else within 3-6 months, so that is the amount of money I will need to have if I need to leave town to avoid abuse.

Any thoughts, my friends?

Stoic

Her dog died under mysterious circumstances--be careful with your dog.  It might be a ploy for sympathy, but she has the potential of being very dangerous. 

She has her group of negative advocates which are feeding her feelings to treat you badly.  I find it interesting that they are all about CS (money) and no mention of the child needing a father.

I do strongly believe she seems receptive to keep you engaged with her on some level. 

Glad you are getting the protective order. 

I thought I told you I backed off on the protective order?

My parents aren't talking to me anymore because of it.

I felt it would backfire. Child custody battles suck for unwed men.

Women get the DA. It's free.

Maybe I'm being paranoid.

I feel like I lost leverage for the protective order.

It's over. I have been talking to her and seeing her.

Blew it.

1) Adoption in to a warm and loving home with 2 willing and receptive parents.

2) To be in her and the child's life as a "parent of a parent" so that I can ensure my investment in the child's life is not going for not and to protect both from further abuse. Perhaps cohabitating to save money and place cameras in all rooms for documentation.

3) To move away, change my name, and stay off the grid.

4) Assume full custody after a lengthy court battle.

5) Stay here, pay child support, and visit with the child.

6) Stay here and quit my job out of protest.

7) End my life.

I am in damage control mode at this point. I am trying to prevent her from pursuing child support by remaining in a quasi-rs... .

1) Be in a relationship with her... .allow her to move in so I can keep an eye on her and the child and put myself at risk for false allegations, however I can put cameras in every room to document. My basic needs are met by her in a relationship... .e.g. affection, listening, emotional support. My mid-higher level needs are not met... .truth, honesty, depth, adult love, empathy, sharing values, pride in partner... .etc. This is seeming like a worse option as I continue to think about it. Who could be happy in that situation?

Yes it sucks. No, your life isn't over.

You seem to be falling into a trap here, from my point of view. This list here is honest, and about what you want. It is good work.


But when I see things like this, I really worry about you:


If you pursue that... .you are throwing yourself at her mercy, giving her all the power. Once you start, it is her choice what sort of mind-games she plays with you in a quasi-rs.

And pwBPD isn't rational or stable, but they are extremely sensitive. If you really don't want to be there but are there out of fear and making a deal with the devil to pretend to be in a r/s with her... .she will KNOW something is wrong. She might guess right. She might guess wrong. She WILL guess something that gives her a reason to paint you black.

You've seen it already. It isn't pretty. Police were involved last time.

I really don't think the option of giving her "just enough" with some hope that she won't nail your ass to the wall for child support is a viable plan. At least its chance of success is LESS than "Try to make the best of being a lover/spouse to her". I'm NOT encouraging you try that option... .or telling you it belongs above #7 on your list. I'm telling you how little hope I have for the "quasi-rs" option.

I really don't think the option of giving her "just enough" with some hope that she won't nail your ass to the wall for child support is a viable plan. At least its chance of success is LESS than "Try to make the best of being a lover/spouse to her". I'm NOT encouraging you try that option... .or telling you it belongs above #7 on your list. I'm telling you how little hope I have for the "quasi-rs" option.

I would give it zero percent chance of working.

You have very poor boundaries. Whether consciously or unconsciously, people with BPD look for people whose boundaries can be busted. I don't know many people (if any?) here on these boards whose situations get better when they make their boundaries weaker. It just tells her that you can be worn down. Next time you set a boundary, she will ratchet things up because your boundaries can be busted fairly easily. It will get worse, not better, the more you do this.

You're self-sabotaging with this plan.

I feel like I lost leverage for the protective order.

It's over. I have been talking to her and seeing her.

Blew it.

If I keep in touch with her, I can help her correct her faulty thinking patterns... .she's honestly receptive to it to some extent. She wants to be more self aware and curb her behaviors.

I'm referring to your suggestion that having a quasi-relationship with her is a good idea:



Calling the police and then having a relationship with her is antithetical to having clear, consistent boundaries.

A lot of people who get involved in BPD relationships have poor boundaries. It's one of the big tenets of healing -- establishing boundaries and maintaining them, consistently and clearly.

Are protective orders going to escalate things? Probably. Setting boundaries with people who bust them as a matter of course never goes over well. See: extinction bursts.

But jumping back into a quasi-rs is not the only other option to getting a protective order.

I was almost there, and I didn't hold my boundaries. The threat of CS is so scary to me that I let down the boundaries.

I don't want to be a slave to this woman for the rest of my life.

If there is something she can do which will scare you enough to drop boundaries... .and she knows it... .she will use it. Again and again and again.

You showed her that it worked last time. She will push that one again, probably harder, because she knows it works with you!

Your only other choice is to face the fears directly. Then she can't use them against you.


Change how you say it.

Say "I will not let her manipulate me."

Believe it.

The one thing I'm most afraid of is her using my love for a child against me.

This makes sense. I am trying to get in to a mindset where I'm not afraid of CS and I won't let her manipulate me. I'm getting closer.

The one thing I'm most afraid of is her using my love for a child against me.

If there is something she can do which will scare you enough to drop boundaries... .and she knows it... .she will use it. Again and again and again.

You showed her that it worked last time. She will push that one again, probably harder, because she knows it works with you!

Your only other choice is to face the fears directly. Then she can't use them against you.


Change how you say it.

Say "I will not let her manipulate me."

Believe it.

What Grey Kitty did was show you how to redefine, refocus and restate the situation to see things more clearly, look through the binoculars from the correct end, so to speak.  In the words above, you r statement had her in control and you forced to be subservient.  Restated, it becomes evident you have a measure of control over your own life, as in "I will not let her manipulate me."

In addition, about 18 years is the limit that the courts set on parenting obligations.  You wrote "for the rest of my life" - do you only expect to live two more decades?  Silly question, I know, but it highlights that to a certain extent you are overreacting to this dilemma in your life.  Perhaps this is some level of PTSD, your own personality traits or something else.  It is good you have a counselor with good perspective to help you.

Often the hardest thing for us to do is to look at our own situation without the emotional impact.  So one technique to use is to get a new perspective.  You're on the inside looking around, you need to be on the outside looking in.  For example, what if you walked up to your friend with a problem, he had met a couple, gotten a room with them, helped the husband out the door and might have fathered a baby with the wife, now he's overwhelmed with it all.  So, what counsel and advise would you give him?  :)O you see the difference?  When it's you you are overwhelmed.  When it's another you can see the situation more objectively.

I hope you understood my intent.  We're here to help with peer support and perspective as best we can, not perfect but better than nothing.  I saw that you had two competing trains of thought, either to have full custody/involvement or no custody/involvement.  Most of the time we don't see either here, often if the courts are involved they make it a blend between parents.

It must be frustrating to sit there and watch me spin round and round.

I think the all or nothing train of thought is hurting me

This is the second time I've been involved with a pd woman, and let me tell you... .the first time almost destroyed me.

I thought I told you I backed off on the protective order?

My parents aren't talking to me anymore because of it.

I felt it would backfire. Child custody battles suck for unwed men.

Women get the DA. It's free.

Maybe I'm being paranoid.

I feel like I lost leverage for the protective order.

It's over. I have been talking to her and seeing her.

Blew it.

When I read this: So going the protective order route, could've have been damaging, as I don't want to be in the CS system. Period. It's slavery.