BPDFamily.com

Hi everyone,


I would like to start a topic of discussion taken from the Wikipedia article on forgiveness. All of our members come from different walks of life, life experiences and belief systems.

Forgiveness is the intentional and voluntary process by which a victim undergoes a change in feelings and attitude regarding an offense, lets go of negative emotions such as vengefulness, with an increased ability to wish the offender well.[1][2][3] Forgiveness is different from condoning (failing to see the action as wrong and in need of forgiveness), excusing (not holding the offender as responsible for the action), pardoning (granted by a representative of society, such as a judge), forgetting (removing awareness of the offense from consciousness), and reconciliation (restoration of a relationship).[1] In certain contexts, forgiveness is a legal term for absolving or giving up all claims on account of debt, loan, obligation or other claims.[4][5]

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgiveness

For this discussion I would like to focus on forgiveness and condoning.

Forgiveness is the intentional and voluntary process by which a victim undergoes a change in feelings and attitude regarding an offense, lets go of negative emotions such as vengefulness, with an increased ability to wish the offender well.

As I was working through our lessons and the final stage of detachment FREEDOM (https://bpdfamily.com/detaching/05.htm) I had internal conflicts with forgiveness. I felt uncomfortable because I thought perhaps it is not something that I should give to my ex partner. I had feelings of ambivalence for some time and I came to the realization that it aligns with my character and beliefs.


I didn't want to hold on to feelings of anger or resentment and to carry the burden of the weight around. I had gone through enough and wanted to let go of many offenses from family members and my spouse. It is not to say that I condone their actions. A simple explanation of boundaries is keeping the good stuff in and the bad stuff out. For example, if my ex partner with borderline personality traits crosses a boundary with the children, I would react accordingly in their best interest.

As the article states it is a voluntary process.


Let's discuss.

I think there is a fine line between forgiveness and wanting to hold our BPDx accountable for their actions.   From what I've been able to gather from previous threads it seems to be a central theme and the struggle for many of the members.  I find myself forgiving her and letting go pretty quickly, which I'm not sure if it's a byproduct of my co-dependency or just because I have compassion.  Regardless, I still find myself wanting to hold her responsible for the bad things she's done to me.

In an attempt to end things on good terms moving forward. I told my exgf that I forgave her and she straight up told me, "I didn't ask you to forgive me". I was like, What the heck? Did you really just say that to my face? Most people would appreciate being forgiven, but not her. Hell, I don't even know what her reply meant or what she was trying to convey. Makes no sense to me.

With her leaving things the way they are with no communication or closure, I know that I haven't really forgiven her though. Without her cooperation to resolve the conflict, it's going to take a while for true forgiveness to happen on my part.

Fred6 my take on her response was that you were insinuating that she did something wrong by forgiving her.  I've found they tend to have no accountability for anything and don't think they do anything wrong so there is no reason to be forgiven for anything.

Hell, not 3 minutes earlier she acknowledged that she had lied and cheated. But it's not only what she said, it's the way she said it. So disgusted, remorseless, and cold. It kind of bothers me, it just seems like a non sense reply to me. Kind of like the first thing that popped into her head or something. Anyone have any other opinions about her reply?

The article is for a general audience, irregardless of co-dependency traits. I have compassion. I care for her as a person. I'm detached and I don't feel the same way about her anymore, I'm not in love with her and I wouldn't say I unconditionally love her. She is also the mother of my children, and the children have unconditional love for her.


How would one accomplish this goal?


She likely had conflicted feelings and felt disgusted. Much of the disorder is emotional immaturity. Do you mean it was that kind of tone?

I believe that my ex partner has been ill for sometime, since her teens. That said, she is not diagnosed and displays borderline personality traits. She may very well be ill for quite sometime. Forgiveness is a process that I chose to give without her knowledge. She's may not fully understand or validate. It is my process.

Forgiveness gets batted around quite a bit on this board. First, it's important to determine the nature of the action to forgive. Several things come to mind. Abuse? Physical, emotional, verbal, substance. Cheating could be viewed as abuse as long as two people have a committed relationship. Cheating would be abusing a relationship and involving other people that may require their own forgiveness. Some things could appear as actions that require forgiveness but upon closer examination may not need forgiveness. For example, if our ex was seeking to better their position by choosing another partner, who would blame them. If they aren't happy why would we stand between them and the door? Just because our feelings may have been hurt is no reason for forgiveness. Often, it is the style that hurts, not the event. Like, it's not what they do it's how they do it. This can be hurtful. It really is important to identify exactly what to forgive. For me, forgiveness didn't happen until my happiness returned, and then it just happened as a result. Not so much willed. I tried to will it so my suffering would end but it made no difference. I suffered. Forgiveness was a result of my self awareness, not the other way around.

My comment about wanting to hold her responsible for what she did to me can't be accomplished, but that doesn't mean I don't have those feelings inside.  It's what I struggle with on letting go of because logically they are not productive feelings at all and don't do anything to improve my growth from this experience.  

Yeah, when she said, "I didn't ask you to forgive me". Her tone of voice and the look on her face was cold, remorseless, and disgusted. It was like an episode of the Twilight Zone or something... .

The key words seem to be 'lets go'.

Like previous deeds/expectations that can keep us chained to the past.

Add an apostrophe and it becomes "Let's Go."

As long as she continues to live her life like she does and treats others the way she does I have a hard time forgiving her.  I am aware that forgiveness is more about ourselves and is necessary for closure. I just find it hard to wish her well.  I prefer indifference.  I don't really care where her life takes her now because she is intelligent enough to work on herself it she wants too.  I would always be willing to support her in therapy if for some reason she ever asked.  I would not want any type of relationship with her though.  I truly don't want people like her in my life.  A year of NC made me realize how bad of a person she is inside.  I think people make excuses for pwBPD when they should be held more accountable.  The illness is even hidden from the general public for the most part. Why?  It has and effect on millions and millions of people.  Where is the awareness... .

I am more indifferent today than I was 14 months ago  Besides not having a real desire to date, she no longer controls my daily life.  Maybe with time I will forgive her, but for now I seek total indifference.  

That's invalidating fred6 when you're being sincere. I'm sorry.


I think you make a good point Perdify. I couldn't force it or will it. I struggled with it, and I had to look at the nature of actions. In some cases both were responsible and some cases not, like an affair. That being said I agree that it is a part of your selfawareness and it happened much later in detachment. As a result, I would like to add that forgiving offenses upon myself and letting go has made me happier, less anxious.


I like that, it keeps us chained to the past.



You make a good point Waifed, you may or may not forgive her, for now you are indifferent Waifed. The passage of time may make you feel different.

The definition of forgiveness says that it is a voluntary process where a victim undergoes a change in feelings and attitude regarding an offense. One, I don't really consider myself a victim. I refuse to embrace victimhood. Bad stuff happened. My feelings about the offenses themselves probably won't change. The offenses are those of being abusive. I will never change my feelings or attitude about abuse. I am not going to wake up one day and have my feelings about abuse towards me or anyone else change. I can let go of negative emotions without forgiveness. And, I can wish an offender well without any sort of forgiveness.

To me, it follows the whole notion of hate the sin love the sinner. I can hate the offense without hating the offender. If I don't hate the offender and hold negative feelings towards the offender, what is their to forgive. I don't hate my husband. I never have and don't think I ever will. He is the father of my children. I may have hateful feelings but that doesn't mean that I hate him.

I never saw myself as a victim. I recall the emotional responses from family members and I didn't like the emotional reactions and the negative feelings attached. I'm indifferent to the behaviors, as they are not indifferent to the behaviors. I don't hate my wife nor do I wish ill will. I wish her well.

I like that vortex of confusion, hate the offense without hating the offender.

Profound difference between being a victim and assuming the role.

i really don't know what others mean when they use the word. from the above finely-parsed distinction it appears to be a difficult concept to see clearly. i can honestly say that i've never felt vengeful towards my stbxw. i've never hated her. i will one day detach. but she is, objectively speaking, dishonest, violent, adulterous, bitter, and callous, indeed sadistic. and unapologetic. it's not that she did things like that, which she did. it's that carelessness about these things is embedded in her character. there's a big dollop of N in with her B. i don't wish her ill, though i will never wish her well. i was a victim (why is it so important to people to insist that they're not?). i only wish that when before the marriage i saw her moral problems (now understood also (not "instead" as emotional/psychological problems), i had done the hard thing and turned away, and i can't blame her for that.

what would it mean anyway to wish her well? to have a happy, uneventful, and successful life? to collapse totally and hit bottom in order to get real psychological help? to grow a conscience? each of would be a beneficial thing.

Im trying really hard to work towards that place of forgiveness. Not for him, for me.

I keep telling myself "he's ill, its the disorder, its not personal."

I have worked through anger recently and I came to a more peacefull place. Then today he contacts my sister and tells her crap... .

I know its the disorder craving attention, whether its negative or not. He needs to plant that seed in my head, he tries to push buttons just to see which one will make me react. I know it comes from his hurt, and underneath hurt is love. The volitile angery smear campaign comes from hurt, shame and love... .

I try really hard to not take it personal, to observe the behaviour but not obsorb, wish him well in my mind and let go. But I find it really hard sometimes to not care about what he says about me in thise moments. I find it hard to detach in those moments, but I really am trying really hard. I was really angry today about it mail to my sister. He knows I love my friends and family and he's trying to harrash them as I have not responded to any of his rages. NC now for 1,5 months.

I know forgiveness will give me freedom... .For me its work in progress... .

You make a good point maxen. How complex and difficult is the concept? What's the formula?

I asked myself does it align with my values, beliefs and character? If I had not given her forgiveness for myself and her. It would of been out of character for me. Again, there are boundaries and she is responsible for her actions as well.

So far in the discussion, it depends on the offenses and if it's permissible for forgiveness. Also, letting of past transgressions and negative feelings and emotions.


Perdify makes a good point that it is not something that you can will and it's found when you are happier. Speaking from my personal experience, I had grieved the relationship and I was detached. I was happier.

You're 1.5 months NC Recooperating and it's understandable that it is a work in progress for you .

I too am a victim. I'm a victim of deception for sure. I was victimized by an abuser, whether it was all intentional or not. I take responsibility for my part and have worked on myself. I have chosen to better myself. Part of my healing was accepting both responsibility for my part in this, and accepting that I was a victim.  It has helped me release the shame that I carried for feeling like I was duped into such a strange and uncharacteristic situation that I normaly wouldn't have gotten myself in too. I've let go of the embarrassment of my actions and the pain that I felt when looking back at certain situations and now realizing that I was used or being betrayed.

You took responsibility Waifed.

Forgiveness is the intentional and voluntary process by which a victim undergoes a change in feelings and attitude regarding an offense, lets go of negative emotions such as vengefulness, with an increased ability to wish the offender well.

I don't think that there is a right or wrong here. This is a voluntary process - a choice. If you chose not to, that's fine. Every one comes from different circumstances and beliefs, it's not for me to judge someone else. I made my choice.

Nope. I will not forgive her conduct towards my children. I will not. She can go live in her hell, I want no part of it. I dont want an apology, Im not really wanting an explaination because I belive I have recieved it via my understanding of BPD. I have zero sympathy.  My only act of forgiveness is for her kids, and I hope they can forgive me.

I hope that your kids forgive you too Deeno02. There's not much that I can do with my kids on her time as I can't control someone else's household. I can control mine. I would hope that they make the choice when they are of legal age to live with me.

I use tools that I learned here on the boards and validate their feelings. I chose to be a role model for them, and to be there for them emotionally to have an influence in the here and now to influence their future. Their feelings in regards to mom are their own.

It is their unconditional love for either parent, irregardless of the parents feelings or conflict between them.  I believe there will be a day that I'll have to have a talk with the kids about mom and her traits. I don't choose divorce poison or to alienate mom, my feelings about their mother are my own. It is their mother and perhaps they may have to make their own choice in the future in regards to their forgiveness.

That's their choice. I do the best that I can day to day for myself and above all for them. I hope that they learn their values and morals from my influence by living my life by example.

We weren't married Mutt. As the r/s floundered, she started attacking my children and more so my daughter, who had moved back homd to attend a closer college. I believe she became jealous of my daughter. I wont ever forget or forgive her comments toward my kids. I hope her 5 kids can forgive me for no longer being there for them with this mad woman.

It's a part of the disorder. Fighting for the attention from the kids. Kids are smarter than we think. Kids are also constantly watching us. I understand that you weren't married and you do have one child of your own?

I'm speaking from my experience. That said, I walk the walk for my kids because I want to be a positive influence on them. I don't want to show them that dad is inflexible and dad is not forgiving.

A choice I proactively made after the split. I didn't understand how our emotional health as kids is such an integral part of our adulthood and impacts our future. I can attest to that having a difficult childhood. I feel like I would be looking the other way and I don't have the heart to do that to my kids.

I don't hate my ex.

I don't love my ex.

I don't like my ex.

I don't dislike my ex.

After 3+ years, 1000s of hours together, and 1000s of conversations, I can honestly say I don't know her... .I have indifference toward her for this reason.

How can you really have strong, definite feelings, positive or negative, for a stranger?

I now understand her issues, their etiology, and their course.

In letting go of the negative feelings, I have become knowledgeable about her condition, as well as the condition I was in when I entered the relationship, and stayed in for so much of the tumultuous, dysfunctional journey... .

I learned my part in it, and what it meant about me, and who I was, and the meager life I was living.  It was an amazing wake-up call, filled with so much self-discovery, personal growth, and new found awareness of... .me.

I forgive her because she is living a life I cannot really imagine.  She is a lost, fragile, frightened, little girl, who has no idea who she really is, and hates every detail of her existence.  She is just circling the drain, with seemingly no end in sight.  I forgive her because I pity her.

I forgive her because of the sure-footed place I am now in, emotionally, physically, and interpersonally.  The relationship, as frequently awful as it was, allowed me to finally become happy... .with me  |iiii

Best thing I've read in a while  and I can certainly identify.  Thank you.

Thank you antelope for sharing. I agree with Raybo48. Well articulated  |iiii

Good thread Mutt.

Through my work I came across a young kid today who was self harming with his fist in deep frustration. After much effort I got him to stop by telling him how I and everyone else care about him. I practically begged him to stop at points though. I said "please" two dozen times. Many of those with BPD self harm. My wife did. When I saw this kid hurting himself it gave me a ton of horrible flashbacks of my wife doing this same type of thing. I wonder if this kid has BPD. I helped change his mood and left him actually smilling at the end.

My religion says that forgiveness of others is mandatory. So that has to be my goal. I don't think I'm at that point though unfortunately. Maybe seeing this suffering kid today going through what my wife experienced/experiences? got me at least pointed in that direction.

I think the above is accurate.  For a very long time I couldn't understand "forgiveness" you hear it in the news all the time... .I forgive the murderer who killed my child... .I forgive the thief that stole from me... . I could never understand how or even why someone would forgive in situations like that.  Murder is wrong, stealing is wrong.  As someone said earlier I was confusing condoning with forgiving.

At 47 Years old I learned the meaning of forgiveness by giving it.

As a 16 year old I fell in love, this young man and I grew up together, continued our relationship through college (separate locations), continued our relationship into our mid 20's we were together almost 10 years.  He was the love of my life and the man I wanted to marry and expected to marry.

Then he cheated the one "unforgivable" thing he could do to me and he knew it. I kicked him out of my house and didn't see him again.  For at least a year I suffered a broken heart and stuffed all my feelings for him. Who wanted to hear about it?  Who would I tell because the love of my life was also my best friend.

This one event I believe changed the course of my life for 19 years.  About a year and 1/2 after our break up I met someone else in June, began dating in July and finally got engaged in August.  He was my rebound man and I married him simply because he asked, I was 26 and not getting any younger!  Turns out I married an alcoholic but I stayed in my marriage... .you guessed it I was a co-dependent enabler.

But the biggest part in my making all of these decisions was I had Zero self esteem I allowed the break up from that early relationship to crush my self esteem utterly & love? what's love? Can't trust love! I made a series of bad decisions that finally led to depression.

About 17 years into my marriage I started climbing back up the depression hole... .started doing some things for me, for my health and for my soul.  

One of many things I did was reach out to family & friends.  I had the contact information on that young man from so many years ago and I called him.  We talked about the usual things our jobs our families etc.  Then somewhere in this conversation he told me what I had meant to him all of those years ago, that he wouldn't be the man he was without me, that he had loved me.  I felt like the grinch who's heart grew 3 times that day.  His comments triggered a year long breakdown and breakthroughs.  I always knew that I loved him but I stuffed it and in letting the love out right on it's heels followed hurt, anger, grief and disappointment all things I wasn't even conscious of feeling.  

At this time I had a dream with him and I in it just hanging out talking about old times.  I woke up and knew that if I wanted to have any type of friendship with him I would need to forgive him for hurting me so long ago.  I honestly, truely from the bottom of my heart forgave him. I thought I was forgiving him for him but something I didn't expect happened.  In forgiving him I freed myself from all the pain I carried around for years.  In forgiving him I was finally no longer stuck in the past.  In forgiving him I reclaimed myself worth.  In forgiving him I came to understand the abandonment I felt.  In forgiving him I realized our break up wasn't my fault.

In 2009 I dropped enough baggage to fill a storage container!   :)

I finally left my marriage and that turned out to be the best thing for all of us my son, my ex and me.  My son who was living with an alcoholic dad and depressed mom was now living with a health happy mom who was modeling a healthy life.  My ex had his 3rd DUI following our divorce, lost his job, driver's license and his retirement (for lawyer and court fees).  He hit rock bottom (no co-dependent enabler there to "manage" him any more).  He finally understood he is an alcoholic and has been sober the last 3 years.  Now my son can also be proud of his dad too.

I will always love that young man from my past both in spite of the things he's done and because of the things he's done.  I'm proud of my ex too for making changes and good choices.  What I'm most happy about is that I am free of them both and have a healed heart, a healed self image, healed capacity to trust, and the ability to love fully.

I have since met a lovely man that I'm crazy about, who is a partner to me, who is supportive, and caring.  I finally recognize and have the love I deserve.  Now if we could only do something about his uBPDxw  

Raybo... .I have the same experience, but also, five minutes or five years later they could say that they did everything wrong and then 5 mins or 5 years later be totally unaccountable again and that I was the cause of ALL the problems. There is no understanding it and no chance of having a relationship or even a sense of closure of any kind, unless I give that to myself, far away from the craziness.

WOW! Our experiences are all so similar.

Thank you AwakenedOne and thank you for sharing. This experience is your catalyst.



Panda39, thank you for sharing. Your post moved me. This is truth.

Thank you.

Somehow, I feel it would be presumptuous of me to "forgive." Everything she did, and *I* stayed around. No one had a gun to my head telling me to stay with her. So, I have nothing to forgive because I did nothing when she caused harm. Made my own bed, and slept in it for a while until she decided to leave. Now I have an empty bed, and years of bad memories peppered with really wonderful ones that leave me confused about the whole thing. Leave me in this point where I so desperately want her back, but know that it would be a terrible thing in an objective sense. My dreams of her tend to give me very painful insight into my memories of the relationship. Sure there were nice moments, but damn was there some sinister ___. Had I said "forget this" early on, who knows where I'd be. Irrelevant, is what it is.

BUT... .

I suppose for some people, forgiving their offender is important. Perhaps it's a way of letting go of what anger they hold on to the other person, it may help them move on with their lives. It may work better for the sort of people who don't direct their rage inward. Actually, I think I want to ask if anyone agrees (or disagrees) with this one. Thoughts?

In the late 90s, after much conflict and soul searching, I gained the courage to forgive my mom for my childhood. She teared up, responded with a simple thank you. Shortly after, I movec 700 miles away, LC. It wasn't because of her that I moved, per se, having moved out of her house 8 years preciously, but due to a career move, which happened to coincide with me running from a woman who had some BPD traits, and with whom I had a close friendship that had lousy boundaries.

Just a few months ago, I my mom shared with me that one of her therapists 20 years ago gave her an unofficial dX of BPD. One would think that may have made me more empathetic, but my feelings were the opposite.

As disgusting as the cheating was by my uBPDx, and I take on some responsibility for emotionally abandonng her as she said (and she is right, regardless of her behaviors), I find her neglect and now half time "abandonement" of them desoicable. I confess that I am still stuck on this, despite the words of my T "accept her for who she is." Girlfriend first, mother second.

What I need to accept is that she is a person, who aside from the mirroring, who has different values than I do. How do I forgive that, by merely accepting it? Like AO said, my beliefs require that I forgive. I struggle with this, against my sense of justice. And deep down, with my mom also.

This is not a light thing to deal with for me.

This has been a hard topic for me.  I'm stuck a bit around forgiveness and everythign it entails.  I spent along time telling myself I had to forgive my ex and kept saying it was healthy for me to forgive her for being who she is and acting the way she does. 

I actually got sick of saying every time to myself constantly, I forgive you for XYZ.  Just little things constantly along the way.  It wasn't the one big thing or the 10 small things it was always having to forgive.  It was taking alot out of me constantly saying, its ok that she does this, she is like this.  This is ok, I shouldnt feel anger I should lower my expectations here and be happy with forgiveness. 

One of the books on radical acceptance I read had a great line in there basically saying to forgive is to give up a part of yourself every time that you have to say, I forgive you.  If you accept as opposed to forgive it is different. 

To accept that my exBPDgf is the way she is because of XYZ is sort or a bit more liberating, I am not implyign it is acceptable and lowering my expectations to an extent.  They sound the same however are very different to me on a personal level. 

I forgive you for hurting me constantly and continuing to try and hurt me.  I will let it keep hurting me but forgive you for it. 

I accept that you will continue to try and hurt me and have hurt me in the past.  I wont lower my standards and accept that you wont meet them. 

If I forgive constantly it is acknowledging it has had an affect and continues to do so.  To accept that it happened is to accept that it was in the past and I no longer have to give up part of me in forgiving her, I just accept she didnt meet my standards and will contiue to fall short of those I will hold myself to. 

I spent alot of personal time on this I would be interested on everyones views around it. 


AJJ. 

I still strugle with this on a daily basis actually in truth.  It is something that is very hard for me to keep going over. 

I will never forgive her. Ever. Why should I forgive her for using me? For pushing off the cliff, For the hurtful things that shattered this once confident man? For the hurtful things she said about my children? For calling me unlovable? For calling me Non-emotional? For lying? For saying that Im incapable of love? I dont care if she's ill or not. For some reason, I love her. Not sure why the hell that is, but I do. But I'm done. I want her to be a memory and I want her to be someone else's albatross(she is). Im taking my revenge on her by living a good life for me and my kids and eventually a good woman, who knows how to have a healthy relationship. And revenge is a dish best served cold.

Well said deeno.  It's amazing, I was called much of what you just described.  It doesn't take long to get angry when I think about it and yea,  you're right we still love these women.  That's the million dollar question, why?   I've read a lot about this disorder and have read what the moderators have said in this thread and in others.  Bottom line, disorder or not they know what they are saying, and I don't believe for one second that they are oblivious to the fact that they are hurting people with their tongue.  Call it projection, call it shame, call it raging, I really don't care what it's called, in my mind it was intentional most of the time.   So since we are not pbdx and if we did half of that crap we should be forgiven?  They don't get a free pass because of the disorder... not in my book.

See thats the thing,

I cant forgive for it.  I know she is just denying her pain etc and everythign else.  I have read and read and will continue to read im sure about it to an extent.  No amount of understanding will justify the actions, I hope that makes scense?

To forgive though.  To me that is me saying that on some level it was ok.  I cant continually say that its ok. 

To accept that she wont meet my standards, and to have my standards high.  That is to say, she just doesnt meet my standards, not her fault, I acep she wont meet those standards.  I dont have to lower those and say ok she can meet these standards. 

I cant explain it properly, I find it easier to accept that she wont meet those standards I had of her than to lower those standards and forgive her.  Its sort of demening to me to say I forgive her. 

I dont know, a very complex topic that I sure dont have my head around at times.  Either way anger isnt healthy for me I know that much so what is the answer.   


AJJ

Hi Aussie JJ,

I understand it's hard and I think that's why it's a process. Healthy anger is a part of grieving the death of the relationship and unbridled anger is unhealthy. I agree Aussie JJ, anger is like taking poison and expecting the other person to die.

We're talking about very difficult circumstances. I'd like to share her affair as an example. I was angry because of her actions and his actions as well.

The writing was on the wall. The marriage was bad. I couldn't end the marriage because I'm a codependent enabler. She ended it for me. He keeps her busy and keeps her chaos away. I can focus on taking care of me and the kids. That's what's important in my life.

I have no doubt my ex is denying great pain, in fact I know she is.  

This is a really hard topic to discuss because these people used us for their own personal/emotional gain for however long the rs lasted.  I  spent about 9% of my life getting used by my ex and I'm in the minority on this board when it comes to time spent with BPD partners.   That involves getting lied too, demeaned, systematically broken down mentally, cheated on, verbally abused, etc.   The only person I want to forgive out of this disaster is myself.  I want to grow as a person, find some self-worth in all of this and then sit down one day and tell myself it was OK... It was OK to fall in love with that person, it was OK to stay in the dysfunction for so long, and it was OK because I am a better person than what was painted by her over and over and over in order to make me feel like crap and make her feel good.    So the goal for me is to spend time and reflect and sit down one day and forgive Me   To forgive her? Why?  There is likely a 99.9% chance she will never ever change and she's horribly addicted to alcohol and if I sat here and told 1/4 of the stories that went on during her binges everyone would be in shock on what I dealt with.  I really do pity the future men in her life because she will systematically break them down to where they are a shell of their former self.  No, the only person that is worth really forgiving so I can move on is me.

I too have struggled with the concept of forgiveness. During the summer, I kept beating myself up over the fact that I could not find it in me to forgive my husband. I felt like I needed to forgive him in order to stay with him. It was very agonizing for me. I spent one whole night researching information about forgiveness. In particular, I wanted permission to not forgive him.

I found this rather lengthy but very helpful article that says you can refuse to forgive but still be emotionally healthy and not violate religious values: www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199907/must-you-forgive

For me, not forgiving is a very subtle way of me regaining my power.

Well,

I am yet to finish with the court process and everything else.  I have a intervention order pending the courts and she just escalated it further with other issues that are a bit too specific to post.  Needless to say I'm at a bit of a crossroads myself.  I cant expect her to meet those standards of fair play and doing whats best for our son that I would expect from a normal person.  I have to hold myself to those standards however give her a free pass with forgiveness and maybe in some way forgiving to me will say that it is in some way acceptable for her to do that.  

If I accept that she wont meet those normal standards in regards to kids and what is best for them.  I am not saying in some way to myself that its ok to have lower standards.  Forgiveness to me is saying on some level its ok.  

I cant do that just yet.  


AJJ.  

This is for me what forgiveness is about.  Not them, but ourselves.  This makes perfect sense to me. 

I can forgive myself for enabling etc.  I didnt understand. 

Forgiving her is a wasted effort, forgiveness implys growth or change on some level.  I accept that she wont anc cant do that.  She will be who she is for life. 



AJJ. 

Hi Aussie JJ,

Forgiveness isn't giving her a free pass. That's condoning. I was in court as well and intend to use it again when and if circumstances arise. You're a good dad for being the voice for S. Forgiveness is not a sign of weakness, it is the opposite, it is strength.

I couldn't agree more AJJ.  

I'm not just guessing when it comes to my pbdx... There will be no growth/change/improvement on any level in her future.  She has said numerous times that therapy, AA, and anything of the sort is a "joke".  

She is stuck (a member said this last night) swirling the drain.  

Also, as much as I don't like thinking about her with other men, I know she will do to them what she did to me.   That's not worth forgiving either.

I agree and disagree at the same time.  psychologicaly felexibility or something.  You are able to be flexible and change your thoughts not just black and white. 

I have to admit, I dont understand it yet, still working on this myself. 


AJJ. 

One can be strong and still choose not to forgive. Choosing not to forgive is not about being weak. It is about being able to make a choice about what one feels is best for him/herself.

My SO has not been able to forgive his uBPDxw and may never be able to... .it still remains to be seen.  But he has kids with her and still must have contact with her.  She continues her behaviors, continues to cause problems, and continues to be hurtful.  So I understand why he can't forgive he's still in it. 

I think there needs to be time, healing and distance before you can forgive, before you can see the person for what they are. The young man from my story is now a 52 year old man.  I was the longest relationship he has ever had. He is a seriel monogomist. His relationships tend to last 5 years or less. He is terrified of commitment.  Being his first relationship I had no history to reflect upon, I had no way of knowing this so I blamed myself for his leaving all those years ago.  Now I see him as a kind of tragic figure who is stuck in the never ending loop of relationships that never go anywhere.

In forgiving you never forget what that person did and the pain that person caused but it is a letting go of the the emotions tied to that pain... .The anger, the hurt, the sadness you let that go.

But like my SO I think many of you are still in it with your BPD person and you can't forgive because the pain is still coming or haven't had the time or emotional distance yet to forgive. This does not make you a bad person.  Even if you feel you should "Forgive" it takes time you can't force it.  But hopefully in the not so distant future you will be able to forgive because it is you that will ultimately benefit it can be very freeing.

This is a tough one for me.  Usually, we forgive those, who at least acknowledges some blame or fault.

It's very hard, and I know it's a matter of their BPD, that they don't even see it or hide it and mask it, as they need to or else how esle can they move on. (which they do easily , until they hit a road block- no supply or get rejected)   I know my BPD blamed everyone, and I mean everyone, past lovers, husbands, and every family member (I saw that red flag, or flags and drove thru) for her being alone as she just gave and gave and they used her, or was so jealous of her beauty or brains, that they spread untrue rumors about her.  BUt how can everyone be wrong?

Anyway, that's the frustration on my part to totally forgive.  I can accept she doesn't and never will come clean , unless it's to her own advantage as wanting to come back and saying how she was a b___ and treated me etc, etc, but after awhile, especially if they get you back, they not only revert to their form, but deny again that anything was ever their fault, etc.

I do know the true meaning of forgiveness is to forgive regardless, but it's very hard, when you pour out everything you had, all you soul and your love, and they crushed it like that. Not even sseeing what they do .

I know I have a better time forgiving strangers that did me wrong of even peopel I know that did, then this.  I am trying, but its not forth coming.  I know they said, its the illness that they have that does this , but I know to they, (most) recognize what they did, but rather condemn the other then face themselves, so more get destroyed.

Yes forgiveness, my ex would ask me to forgive him all the time. We are both Christians and the bible talks about always forgiving. I can't count t the 100th of times he would ask and I would say of course I forgive you, only to sometime

S hours later do a mean or hurtful thing and ask again. I still think that forgiveness is important, he was more healing to me. Now that I finally went NC for now 2 months he texts me thank I need to ask him for forgiveness? What? I'm not the one that rages,breaks up once a week, I don't think he ever walked onto the house and had to try to guess why I'm in a bad mood.mmmmm I think he is the one that cheated while I was in the hospital. Oh well all I do now is now that he is gone I have more energy and have been so happy not worrisome that I'm saying the wrong thing more importantly blaming myself for his bad actions and moods.

Hi outside9x,

It wasn't a matter of who is to blame or right or wrong. I forgave irregardless understanding that the other party isn't going to validate that I did. I understand the chaos and collateral damage. She also lacks impulse control and her behaviors are self-destructive. I chose to detach and stay out of her path.

I was a victim of her abuse, constant manipulation and dishonesty. By leaving her, not going back and maintaining NC, I moved away from the victim role to being someone in recovery.

The process of moving into a space of forgiveness has been gradual and undulating for me. Like Mutt, I'm at a place now where I certainly don't wish her well but at the same time I don't wish her ill. There was a time a while back where I was so angry and bitter I wished dreadful things on her. These hateful feelings kept me blocked and disturbed.

Forgiveness for me does not mean I condone how she treated me. Neither does it mean I will let her back into my life. Forgiveness is about acceptance and just letting go of her and the dreadful pain that brought me to my knees during our relationship and after we split. Forgiveness is about peace and freedom. Although I would like it, I do not need her to apologise for me to forgive her and move on forever.

Hopefully I will come to a place of dispassion one day soon when I can look at this dark period of my life as one of my greatest lessons.

Me and my exgf were at her parents house to eat dinner one night and I overheard a conversation she had with her step mother. I didn't catch the first part of the conversation or how it started. But my ex was telling her step mother that when people pissed her off or hurt her feelings that she wanted to hurt them and make them suffer. She said that she knew it was wrong, but made it made her feel better to let her feelings out and make the person feel bad. Then the next thing I knew, they were laughing hysterically about it.

My ex knows what she does to people. She knows that it's wrong. She just won't or can't control it for some reason. I know that she has some kind of mental problem, but not sure to what extent. She goes to church and talks about putting god first in her life. Well, if that's the case she must also know that she has free will and makes the choice to hurt people. She cheated on me, lied to me, and treated me like I didn't exist. Almost like I did something to her instead of her doing what she did to me. And she's still doing it. So, as much as I want to forgive her. At this point, I don't think that I can forgive her and don't foresee it in the future without some sort of "real" apology and closure from her. Maybe I'll change my tune down the road, but right now I don't see it happening.

This thread is fantastic... .I see that we all are in different or similar places in our process.  We all come from our own personal histories and are all "in process".  I found a book online that really helped to put a voice to my feelings and kind of suss out where I am and what I am willing/capable of doing regarding the process of forgiving... .

"How Can I Forgive You" by Janis A. Spring.  She describes the process, the pitfalls and the stages of the process of dealing with perhaps a situation or person that shows no remorse or ability to take any part in the process.    I find that for me, in my part of the journey that I am on the page for total acceptance but not forgiveness... .but we are all different so our individual capabilities vary with our FOO, spirituality and damage.    I am getting a lot from this thread knowing that there are many of you who feel just like I do after the aftermath of a relationship with a pwBPD. That in and of itself is supportive and healing for me.  I get comfort out of knowing that many of you are going through the same struggles as I am... and also that there is no "right" answer to the process. It is definitely a personal journey for each of us. Thank you everyone for sharing from the heart!

Lion Fire,

I really like what you've said here.


Lion Fire the way I see it you are on the path.  |iiii  It is about healing, growing, acceptance, and moving forward.  In many ways it isn't even about our ex's,  it's about us and processing all of the feelings we carry from these relationships... .grieving... .then letting go.  Maybe Forgiveness should be the "6th step" of the grieving process when grieving a broken relationship.

Forgiving someone who has hurt you does not mean that no boundaries are necessary.  Quite the contrary.

When you are able to forgive and move on, you must have boundaries that cannot be crossed for your own protection.

Who said you need to verbalize your forgiveness to them?  It is NOT meant to make them believe you are condoning bad behavior, nor is it meant to make them feel better.

To forgive them in your heart will make YOU feel better.

It is the emotional disconnect.  A positive way to get past a destructive relationship by accepting the illness, forgiving the illness, admitting it is over, and then making the choice to walk away.  

She walked away. Not me. When she walked away, she chose to torch me and my kids on her way out. I know shes ill. I know shes wired differently. No excuse for her to say ___ about my kids. Im fair game for her weirdness and idiotic, made up crap, but my kids loved her and in her mentally unhinged rage, she crossed the line, and for that, i will not forgive her. Ever. This is what will keep me from EVER reconnecting with her and her chaos.

I have thought about forgiveness most of this day after reading and commenting in this thread yesterday with a bit of stress actually. I again am trying to have some type of compassion and empathy for her although she treated me like an animal.

I am now recently divorced from her and as I spoke to a friend here lately I estimate that I am 95% detached. I am proud of my detachment and the self respect to stay away from a person who I once truly loved with all my heart.

Being highly detached from her is a comfortable state that I like. The dark cloud that rained feces is not over my city anymore. Yeah, she hurt herself. But yeah she physically hurt me also.  I'll have forgiveness one day though. It's going to probably be a one minute ceremony ritual to God and not thought of again or seldom. I guess the stress comes in at -> "If I forgive her shouldn't I have to eat lunch with her sometime and say hello if she initiates it or shouldn't I have to help jump start her vehicle or some other stuff if she grows a heart and decides to calls me?" I feel I was saved from being permanently disabled or even murdered by her. I can't see myself sharing one word with her ever. So that creates a stressfull thing with me of how to forgive. I am going to simply it. I will know what is best for me and not push this issue. Sometimes I think she is an evil snake. Sometimes I think she is a troubled soul. I'm not sure there is ever an answer to this. Maybe she's both. Who cares really though at this point. Despite her stealing all the money, taking the car, causing me to get fired, forcing me to drop out of school at a critical career moment and leaving me injured with no further future inquiry of did I recover from that injury... .I now have my dream job with the minimal education requirements for it because of my intense determination since being trashed. I don't want to even think about her really. I want to stay in Detachment City.

How did you detach?

Back on topic  *)

Members are at different stages of detachment and healing and there may be feelings of resentment and anger. Shortly after post break-up things are still raw and divorce is up there with a loved one passing. It is extremely difficult when your partner has borderline personality traits.

That said, it is a personal choice and there is no right process. It isn't for the other party, it is for yourself. Strong personal boundaries are necessary. Above all it is to release the emotional baggage and for you to feel better and not to make them feel better or condone, excuse their behaviors.

A choice.

I think forgiveness implies letting go of anger. I know I haven't forgiven my Ex because I am still angry at her.

I had something like radical acceptance preached at me by my T. "Accept her for you she is, otherwise you will remain angry. She is who she is and likely isn't going to change."

The article on Linehan and DBT got me thinking about this:


It suits me now to be angry, only 10 months physically seperated, and I accept that I feel this way. The anger has lessened, but I wonder how healthy it is for me to hang onto it? This is my reality now. At some point, I need to change because reality sure isn't.

Out of all the things I've been through in this r/s, the good times, struggles, dreams and now detaching, that's the one word that stands out to me the most (besides love). Choice. We definitely have some say in who we are, what we do, what we feel. We're capable of deciding for ourselves. Sometimes that leads us down a dead end, sometimes it opens wide. Sometimes we choose to forgive ourselves, or someone else, sometimes we don't. We don't have to. I agree, it can be like letting go of something weighing you down, but weights can also build up strength so it would depend on the person and their situation as to who needs to do what when. It would be their choice to choose whatever they chose. I instantly forgave my ex for many things, but some of the more personal have been harder to let go of. As time goes on, I'm more accepting that it was what it was, it left some scars, and today's another day. Kind of like forgiving that life goes on?

I have found it MUCH more difficult to forgive myself.  Forgive myself for staying as long as I did, for putting up with his sh!t, for not enforcing my boundaries, for walking on so many eggshells, for not staying true to who I am, for putting myself in that situation in the first place and for ignoring my gut.

Honestly, for me, especially given my ex's diagnosis, forgiving him is the easy part.  He is a frightened child trying to live an adult life without the tools to cope.  I am a rational, intelligent adult, with my own attachment issues, who ignored red flags, my gut and his behavior, but chose to stick around for the torture anyway.  To forgive myself has proven to be far more difficult than forgiving him.   

I agree maternal. I found it much more difficult forgiving ME. That behavior for myself was there before I met someone with personality disorder traits. I learned about the her behaviors to understand what happened and why the experience caused great pain. That was half of the equation, the other half is what I owned.

I had to forgive myself before I could find forgiveness for my ex partner. I wasn't getting enjoyment in life and relationships and I came to the realization that my depressions and unhappiness was a byproduct of guilt and condemning myself. I also believed the blame from others in my family and significant others. This was connected to my self esteem.

From my personal experience, I had to own my codependent behaviors That's how I found forgiveness, it started by forgiving myself and letting go of some of the past emotional baggage that was keeping me stuck and moving forward in a healthier more fulfilling path.

maternal

Stop blaming yourself.  PwBPD are extremely charismatic and manipulative.  You did not make him sick, you tried to help and were hurt in the process.  

We all reach a point with BPD where we look for answers where there are none.  After all, someone has to be responsible, right?  Not true.  Would you blame yourself if he had a brain tumor or cancer?

Mental illness is a monster that twists and turns reality into fantasy and then tries to consume us.  Forgive yourself.  Just know you have used your coping skills to the best of your ability.  You have not failed.

We live and learn.  We are eternally optimistic when there is only a sliver of real hope, and sometimes we have to accept the facts of this terrible disorder and make difficult decisions in order to keep our own sanity. Everyone makes mistakes in life... .it is called being human.  

It is also called survival.  Let the guilt go, you do not deserve it.