BPDFamily.com

Hello everyone,

My uBPDw and I have very little intimacy. Before the discovery of BPD, I always rationalized the reasons, excuses for her disinterest in sex and closeness. The communication tools I have learn here have helped out our marriage. But now the kids are out of the house, I figured things would be better in establishing closeness with less distractions and more privacy. Not happening and it actually got worse. She picked up more hours at work or has a crisis to solve for someone else. I really go out of my way to make things as quiet as possible in our home. Dishes, laundry, housework are done before she gets home while working 55 hours weekly and attending graduate courses. I dont get it. The duty sex I get rewarded with is cold and resentful. I feel guilty afterwards because I know she cant stand it and my needs seem selfish to her. Any ideas to share?

Hi bobcat,

I'm really sorry to hear about the intimacy issues you are having and how this must be frustrating for you.

My situation has been similar to yours over the past several months, in the beginning it was several times a day to the point of me actually asking to slow things down because I was exhausted. I think she was getting it out of her system at the start because it soon slowed down and seemed like a big ask if I suggested anything, yet she states when she needs it and gets upset if you don't respond immediately. Like you too, it seems cold and resentful.

I've tried to address the intimacy issue but she gets angry or frustrated, so communication is out on that one. I've tried to be romantic but that hasn't worked either. The closer I get, the more she pulls away so it's just about finding that balance.

I had a similar issue with my ex-wife who was definitely cluster B personality where it was great in the beginning but faded as the months went on. What caught me off guard with that was she told our Therapist I was the one not showing intimacy despite many debates we had around it. I once told her that I didn't know many people who actually argued over intimacy. However, every single night she would want me to tickle her back so she could fall asleep just like her mother used to do when she was younger. If I stopped of fell asleep before she did, she would rage at me. To her that was the intimacy, to me there was no compromise on needs.

From what I've discovered around BPD and from the site is that once the fear sets in, they are afraid to get too close in case you abandon them and if they do get too close it can usually end up with some kind of anxiety. It's the push pull situation. I'm sure there are others on here who have had more success and I do feel for the situation you find yourself in right now. The question I have for you is why do you feel guilty for wanting something that is perfectly natural and normal?

Ripped,

Thank you for the response. Your back rub example describes exactly what our cycle is, exactly. It is a trade off or barter system.

I always suspected the pressure I put on her for more intimacy was causing her anxiety.

My SO started to push me away about 4 years ago, when he cheated me. He blames me for not wanting to be intimate.

He also blames me for: not being able to have sex, not being able to love, not being able to express my emotions, totally lacking sex appeal, being the ugliest most repulsive woman he has ever seen in his life.

How do I deal with it? I guess I live in an illusion that when all the obstacles that make him dysregulate, are gone (like solving financial problems) , we can start building normal life and  intimacy again... .

I have been married 20 years and never once felt like she was truly mine. It seems she could up and leave at any moment, and I would be to blame for all my faults and inability to make her happy.

Mie,

My advise is to understand these folks are wired wrong from the factory. The fact that you are here helping others with advice and learning about BPD shows you to be a wonderful person. I am sorry someone could say that and make you feel that way.

For me, this is the main problem in our relationship.  We have no intimacy, no emotional intimacy, no financial intimacy and no sexual intimacy.  I am not willing to have perfunctory sex.  We have started working with couple therapists out of California, and I have  friend that had BPD symptoms and her husband had NPD symptoms, who have totally healed their relationship with this approach.  I am going to give it time with them, if this works and I can get my needs met then I am in.  Otherwise, it will be the end for me.  I haven't told my dBPDh that but have been clear with the therapists.  Either he does the hard work it is going to take to build intimacy and so do I, or we are not going to be a couple.  It is a basic value that I hold, so if he decides he doesn't want to do the work to get there, then I have no choice but to move on.

Hey... .little bit of "correction" here.  I think the above sentiment is close... .and I acknowledge that some people may be "wired" this way... .maybe. 

What I think is better to understand is that the traits are very persistent and will be resistant to change.  But they can change.

When I think of people "wired" a certain way... .that leads me to think that you can't change without a "rewire"... .or "new biology.

Again... doubtful if we will ever know exactly how much is biological and therefore "wired"... .

My personal opinion is that the bio component is on the low side and that a childhood in a highly "invalidating" environment is the main culprit.

Thoughts?

My H certainly had the highly invalidating environment as a child and his family has continued to be extremely invalidating to him as an adult.

Our sex life is nonexistent and he said some time ago that he couldn't be intimate with me because he didn't "trust" me. It has nothing to do with cheating or even flirting. What he doesn't trust is that I've been too damn honest with what I think and feel.

Now that I've discovered that he fits the criteria for BPD very well, I understand more about what he means. But I cannot erase past history. So I'm starting to rebuild bridges between us and reconnecting on an emotional, if not physical level.

I must take responsibility for my part in pushing away intimacy. With his abuse of drugs and prescription medicine, he has, at times, totally repulsed me. He is doing better about not going to excess, so that's helpful. I still have fears about what his habits are doing to him. And he still has fears about my judgment of his habits. So it's sort of a stalemate.

Since I have more ability to alter my thoughts and feelings, the burden is upon me if I truly want more intimacy. I'm not sure I want to be vulnerable like I was. Addicts are not attractive to me.   

Flier,

I did not mean to spread disinformation. I can only help BPD is repairable.

I was going to post a similar topic, just didn't know how to phrase it. 

Intimacy in my r/s has been slowly declining, to the point we haven't had sex in over a month.  She is blaming anti-depressants and my lack of initiating, while I think her depression, poor self image, and poor attitude need to be considered.  Frankly, she's been in a bad mood for most of a month, and I haven't felt much like having sex with her.  Right now, I would prefer to have intimacy without sex, as I think we need to build back up from there.  The last time we tried to have sex was a complete disaster, with her blaming me for doing it wrong, not being aggressive enough, her having some kind of PTSD-type reaction that ended with her crying and punching and kicking the mattress, and me feeling ashamed and completely non-sexual.  Frankly, I am still recovering from that, and it may be awhile (a long while) before my self confidence returns in this area. 

I think her excuses involving the medication and my lack of initiative are just excuses she is making for herself rather than admit to herself some big issues she is facing right now.  Last night she made the comment "I wonder if when I am off the medicine I will feel like jumping your bones."  And right afterwards, she berated me for braking too hard at a red light.  Today, she emailed me an article about what women really want in the bedroom.  Seems like this is still an issue, and seems like she is still blaming me somehow.

This is the hardest part - dealing with the lack of intimacy.   It seems, to be BPD, is to fear intimacy, and to avoid it like mouldy leftovers pushed to the back of the fridge!

I wonder, what's more important, quality or quantity?  And by whose standards?  What's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander.  

Our sexual r/s fluctuates.  Some times are better than others.  The bad times do keep getting worse, but the good times are also getting better.  And the frequency is always diminishing.  In our honeymoon phases, which do creep back in now and then (you know, on the rare occasions when the stars align and when the all chips fall in the right places), those times looked different ten years ago then they do now, that's for sure!

 

A challenge that I'll put out there to all of us "nons"... .is to consider that just like we are the emotional leaders in our r/s... .we should also be the leaders in the intimate or sexual part of our r/s.

I've had many counselors say... .and read books about how sex is the "glue" that holds a marriage together.  And marriages that "glue" themselves together often... ."stick together"  (working the analogies as hard as I can here... .:))

So... .the challenge that I will put out there for nons is to take the lead and "push appropriately" for more sex. 

Just like adding validation will help things work better... .more sex usually does as well. 

It doesn't always have to be mind blowing.  You don't always have to be "in the mood". 

This is something that you do for your r/s... .it's something you do for your partner... .and yeah... .you get benefit from it as well.

Rejection is tough... .in fact... one of my hardest BPD trait moments was when my wife tried to use sex to get me to give up my password to gmail (a boundary I had set... .she was having extinction burst).  Luckily I was able to stay cool and worked through it... and I honestly didn't and don't hold it against her or take it personally.

I encourage everyone to try and not put too many conditions on when they will have sex or allow their partner to have sex with them... .

Fire up the slow music!   :) :) *) |iiii

Last night, my wife apparently couldn't sleep.  So, at some point in the middle of the night, I awoke with her hands down my pants and trying to force me awake to have sex.  Of course, I was barely awake, exhausted, and I told her I was too tired, and fell back asleep.  She's my wife.  I feel a little violated here.  Why?

I really wish she would make time sometime other than the middle of the night to live in the present so that we can be intimate. 

 

Ahh... the middle of the night grope...

In my younger days this was common (I'm in my mid 40s now... )

I've done this and been the recipient of this... .probably wouldn't be resistant if it happened again... but seems like the older we get the more we value sleep.

Max,

My guess is you feel violated over lots of other issues... .and sex is an extension of that.

Most people say sex life is a barometer of what is going on in the rest of the r/s.

How was she acting today?  If you had gone ahead and had a romp with her... .do you think she would act differently today?

Yes, definitely true.  This incident alone is not the issue, as I perhaps should feel happy that she is paying attention to me physically again. 

- it brings back painful memories of a previous r/s when I felt objectified and sex was often demanded, and if I refused I was ridiculed.

- I sometimes feel like I have been mistreated or emotionally ignored in this r/s, so for her to wake me in the middle of the night wanting sex feels like she wants sexual satisfaction without putting in the emotional effort.    I'm someone who needs a spiritual/emotional connection with sex. 

That is a very good point, thank you!

Just recently I have taken leadership in some business/financial decisions because it's crucial. He has no choice but to listen to me, and (after an exhausting series of episodes) things are taking the right direction because of his great problem solving skills.

Why couldn't same happen with intimacy? How can I make him interested in tantric sex?    :light:

Sounds like he needs to think it is his idea... .

Tell him you need help figuring out which these books to use to spice up your sex life... .(have several to choose from... )... .see where it goes...

I need to start doing this, thank you for this post! My dBPDh is suffering from ED, and whether it's mental or not I am not sure. However, that doesn't mean I don't like trying... .but he doesn't like "failing"

He says to me he wants me to be more aggressive and demand it of him, but there's been a lot of times I have initiated only to be rejected. The rejection really cuts into me, since I already feel insecure about 'being aggressive'

Talking about this situation never really goes well. Last night we talked about it some, and he usually says the same things over and over again. "A woman's body is always ready for sex. You can't understand what it's like for me" and... .

(If this is TMI I apologize, but it's what I don't know how to answer) "No matter what my tongue still works, and you can have it any time you want."

Yes that's true... .for the most part. There's still been a few times he declined but I'm not worried about that. I cannot figure how to say ummm... .yeah that's great and all (and it is) and I'm appreciative of that but... .I still miss the 'full menu'

When I bring up going to a doc to get checked out and possibly some pills, the conversation goes bad. "Oh, you would be ok with a medicated *bleep*" Yes... .I would.

I tell him every time if he had to take a pill that's fine. He doesn't choose for this to happen to him, so why would I think badly of him or be angry?

I'm not getting anywhere with this problem.

+ 1,000,000 here.  uggh.  I get the same thing.  She will say she wants me to be aggressive sometimes, or blame me for never initiating anything.  Yet I don't feel like initiating anything because not an hour goes by she is not complaining about some kind of pain or being tired or depressed.  If I felt depressed or tired or in pain, I would not want her to initiate with me.  I hesitate to initiate with her if I am getting mixed signals.  And then she will want me to be more aggressive in the act, saying it will help her get in the mood.  Meanwhile, she isn't doing much to touch me, and then it all feels mechanical, and sometimes she's not even smiling... .and UGH.  End result, is I feel completely self-conscious to the point my parts won't work, I don't want to discuss it because last time I hadn't gotten past the basic subject and she dysregulated to a huge and dangerous degree, and right now I think I would prefer closeness and intimacy in ways that don't feel so much like a chore.

So formflier - I see what you are saying.  But right now I just feel damaged and completely awkward in this area.  Other things I can "force" myself through and feel okay with.  But I don't know about sex.  I don't know if I can have sex if I am "not in the mood" simply for the point of being the emotional leader. 

Oh, my.  What a stinky kettle of fish we've opened up here with this topic! I'm going to share, just so you know you are not the only ones dealing with ED.

My BPDh has had ED since before I met him.  He says he has been this way his whole adult life, and it is because of an alignment issue in his back that blocks... .something... .I'm not sure what, I just know of the results, and it is NOT an easy road.

He takes pills.  He has taken different ones that have different effects.  He can obtain the end results without experiencing a total erection, so we have done it without the pills, too.

For us, this makes sex all about him.  It has been all about what he needs, what he wants, how he wants it, when he wants it and what works for him.  That means each time it is initiated by either of us, it's for him, his way.  I feel undesired, unattractive, and unwanted most of the time.  I feel like I'm just 'the means to an end'.  

When he takes the pill, he wants to get as much out of it as he can, and becomes... .unquenchable, and we feast.  My plans get changed around, where I am in my head doesn't matter, because he has ' repped' himself, we can't waste it, and away we go.  I hate that feeling of being the last one to be considered in the deal.  Now, he doesn't take anything unless I give the go-ahead.  This isn't ideal either, because we have no spontaneity, no in-the-moment passion.  I hate it.  Everything must be 'discussed' first.  So mechanical.

It has only been in the last little while that I've stepped back and said, no, I'm not interested in this type of love making anymore.  I've asked for things I've wanted, in spite of the fear of opening myself up and being vulnerable, and he either ignores my requests or rejects them.  So, I took things into my own hands, so to speak.    I no longer rely on him for sexual gratification.  This situation is again, not ideal.  Like CE said, I do still crave ''the full menu", but it removes him from being needed, which somehow, is helping the situation.

Max, you sound like a healthy male who is in touch with your emotions enough to need the connection to make the connection.  You do not need to hold guilt over not being 'en garde' at the drop of a hat, or pants, in this situation.  She likely dysregulated because she felt like it was her fault and couldn't handle it.  I know I personalize hubby's lack of response, a lot, and feel like I'm the one not doing my job right.  

I've also thought about what FF said, about the sex being a barometer for the rest of the r/s.  This makes sense.  I am looking to re-gain my own identity right now, and that is sure reflected in our sex lives!

Thanks for sharing, everyone.  What a tough, but important, topic!

Merry Saturday, all!

Understand... .

How about a naked back rub... .with oil.  Or other things "less than" the full menu. 

The point seems to be that you are doing something physically for the other person... .not for you.  That you are giving of yourself and are trying to do things that please the other person.

The hope is that they will reciprocate... .not in a transactional kind of way... .but in a "i appreciate the effort you make for me... .so I will make an effort for you... ."  way.

 

Crumbling,

I'm thinking a "help me understand conversation" is needed with your hubby.  DO NOT ask WHY.

You "just" need help understanding how he wants to be communicated with so he can meet your need... .since you are obviously meeting his.

Don't suggest he doesn't want to.  Assume the best... .listen for things to validate.   My guess is there is a lot if insecurity to validate and work through on his part.

Ask him to help you with your... .umm... .  electrical connections... .   Explain to him what feels good... .etc etc.

Don't worry about TMI here... .none of this is vulgar... and sex is a HUGE part of a r/s. 

So... .I routinely "help" my wife in ways that she wants.  Honestly I don't get much out of it... .it can be arousing... .fun... .but it is definitely a "detour" from where I want to go... .if... .all I wanted was a pathway to my satisfaction.

She appreciates it... and usually doesn't have an issue doing whatever I want... ."when it is my turn".

Every once in a great while we can get satisfied at the same time... .but that has been an elusive goal for us... .so we don't focus on it much.

I appreciate the suggestion, FF, but my BPDh and I are so far from being that intimate right now ... .I'd settle for the back rub idea, at this point. 

This is hard to talk about.  It's harder still to understand.  I am starting to make a connection between his hang ups in everyday life, and what we face in the bedroom, tho, so that's a start.

As FF said:  "The point seems to be that you are doing something physically for the other person... .not for you.  That you are giving of yourself and are trying to do things that please the other person.  The hope is that they will reciprocate... .not in a transactional kind of way... .but in a "i appreciate the effort you make for me... .so I will make an effort for you... ."  way.  "

 "doing something physically for the other person, not for you."

I see where a pwBPD would have difficulty with this.  I also see why so many of us nons crave it.

Nice food for thought!

I am so so there with you. It wasn't THAT long ago this used to be natural rofl

Yeah he does that, too. He spends so much time talking about being depressed, this hurt that hurts, how he hasn't showered that day... .when exactly am I supposed to be aggressive or initiate sex? How am I supposed to even WANT to? I tried explaining that... .ofc I got nowhere.

Sex isn't everything to me. I still love HIM and spending time with HIM, but I'm not dead either. Sometimes I think to myself, "Well... .is that it? At 34 your love life is over, never to see the light of day again?" That's depressing.

No time like right now!  Go for it!

So... seriously... .what if you asked him to go to take a shower... .or that you would go take one with him... .would he say no?

If he does say no... .any history of "scheduling" this kind of thing.

Here is the big point... .is that if there are things in the r/s that us "nons" are not happy with... .And I get it loud and clear from cold ethyl that she is not happy with her intimate life right now... .then it is up to us... ."the nons" to take charge of fixing it.

Listen... .even bigger general statement.  Waiting on a pwBPD traits to fix things in a r/s is not a good strategy.

Intimate issues are no different... .

"Waiting on a pwBPD traits to fix things in a r/s is not a good strategy. "  Here, here! 

That being said, you can help guide them and give them a safe place to attempt to make things better... .like setting someone up for success.

Here's how things unfolded in our home, when I applied FF's advice:

First, the set up:  he was home from work yesterday and we had a nice supper with friends.  I helped him be comfortable with this because I didn't tell him before hand (that always makes things worse because of his fretting and worrying), I didn't expect any help from him, and I made sure he realized that this may be our only visitors for the holidays, and so we should make it a good visit.  He enjoyed himself and was actually laughing out loud and telling jokes the way he used to.  It made my heart swell SSOO much to see him enjoying himself.

After they left, and we were both still glowing from the great visit, I attempted to have a 'help me understand' conversation (on FF's advice) with him about how he finds it difficult to give me what I request within our sex life.  I've not applied this technique before, so I was curious to see what would happen.

His first response was to pretend he didn't understand the question, so I gave a recent example of what I meant.  I assured him I just wanted to talk about it in an attempt to find common ground that would benefit us both.  Then he tried saying something that would make me feel sorry for him.  I validated his pain/suffering, but also stated that his response did not answer the question.  And we both stayed in our good mood though all this, and everything was said with the slightest of grins on our faces.  Like we had an inside joke we were sharing.  And we did!  We both recognized his natural BPD responses to my question, and I refused to let that lead me away from my goal of getting an answer out of him, or ruin our mood, and he kept trying something else. 

So then he changed the subject.  We both broke out laughing, I kissed him on the forehead and told him it was okay.  We could talk about it later.  Then we went about our evening.

He came over to me a little later and asked what I would want if I could have anything from him sexually.  It took me a while to answer, because all I could do was just grin, from ear to ear!  I didn't delve into all my deep dark desires.  Instead, I turned it back to validating him, thanking him for asking and hugging him close, stating how I know it's a hard thing for him to do, to consider my needs and how I appreciate his question.  I said it helps just to be asked.  So then he even asked me a second time.  Oh, the flow of validation was wonderful!  This is the first time in ten years he has asked me this question!

All I needed to do was look him in the eye with a huge smile and say, "you know what I want". 

And he did.  And he grinned.  Being a pwBPD, like clockwork, he immediately turned everything back around to him, and he told me something he wants sexually, that he has never asked for before.  With a little discussion, just to appease the disease, it was clear I knew what he wanted without him ever voicing it either.

We didn't say yes or no to either of our requests, but just both sort of enjoyed the validation we were feeling.  We again, went about our evening, doing this and that.  Later on, he was in the shower.  I applied FF's advice again, and joined him.  This lead to some nice intimacy without 'the full menu', and the evening moved on, each doing our own thing.

Then later, when we were in bed, and I didn't offer, but just started putting lotion on his legs, where he has eczema (a small detour from FF's advice, but from the same vein). 

And, well, the rest of the story is fully censored but be rest assured, it was a great ending to a great day!

Thank you so much, friends, for helping me through everything when I need it the most!

I'm here to say all the hard work is worth the gain.  Every single little crumb of it!

Blessings, all.  Merry Monday!

 

 

Did you have a disco ball going?

Nice work!

   

I can also see where this can become difficult slash impossible. I had this discussion many times with my wife. She knows the fair/right thing to do is to reciprocate. But she won't do it, because it's "unfair" that she has to do it when she it doesn't give her immediate pleasure.

Just like when she agrees to help people with things, only to bail out once she finds out that it takes some effort and wasn't as much fun as she thought. She gets stuck in the "unfair" thinking again and eventually blames/devalues the person she intended to help out.

I think only therapy can help a pwBPD to understand reciprocity. From the outset they don't have a clue.

Hi.  You're right, without having a history of therapy and understanding the disease, our evening last night would have NOT gone the same way.  And it takes a willingness to bend and grow on BOTH sides of the r/s for things to get better.

If she isn't in a place where she can do this, than she just isn't there now.  Doesn't mean it's impossible to achieve, only that it's not in the cards now.  I can say this with complete certainty now. 

Well-led effort on both parts = results! 

I would ask her to help you understand this... .

Listen... .don't challenge what she says... .look for things to validate.

I guess that's sort of my problem. Sometimes he will... sometimes he won't. When he doesn't want to, I feel horrible. I feel like I put myself out there only to be smacked down. It literally takes me days to muster up the courage to even try, so when it doesn't work I just feel... .embarrassed, unappealing, and stupid for even trying to begin with. Mind you, I don't put these issues on him, how I feel is not his fault. But this is a product of 3 years of weirdness now.

Things seem back to "normal" with BPDgf right now. In terms of I'm painted white, plans still going ahead for Christmas etc... .

A conversation with her last night brought something home about this topic which perhaps previously I've not addressed in the correct way. I now know that there is no intimacy in our r/s only sex. Also, that it's not just her, I have failed to miss the signals because of how they are presented. She doesn't seem to have a filter on what comes out of her mouth at times, which can be hurtful.

How would you react if your gf pointed out another guy and told you that she would love to sit on his knee with no pants on? I've reacted to that comment in the past with a little hurt, rejection, confusion and pain. In turn, that's then upset her but to be honest, I have no idea what else to say around it. It hurts more when that comment comes in the midst of gf pushing away advances because of being "tired" or not in the mood, or even that she is in a comfortable spot in bed and doesn't want to move.

Previously, I've swallowed my ego and even commented back, matching her at her level. Again, that goes down like a lead balloon and usually ends up with her very hurt and upset because I must be checking out other women. It's something I've not been able to comprehend in that it's ok for one but not the other but I do get that 2 wrongs don't make a right. To be fair, this is where I've been unfair on her. It's not like I would ever do anything, the reason behind my comments has been to show her how it "feels" to hear them and I know now that is completely the wrong approach, regardless of the level of frustration.

I've started to find that when she makes those kinds of comments, if I then initiate anything, she is far more receptive and it brings a different dynamic to the r/s. Listening/reading some of the comments on here around waiting on our partners hit home. For me personally, intimacy is about feeling loved, valued, close and a special bond between 2 people. I know that was how it felt in the beginning but I also now know for gf its what she needs to feel loved.

*sigh* I get jealous too sometimes when I feel neglected, and my dBPDh will make a comment about how cute a girl is on TV or something like that. e's never gone as far as your gf, though. I have felt the same... .you can't/don't initiate anything with me at all, but you are gonna comment on how pretty someone else is, or how big that girl's jugs are. Yeah... .it hurts.

They don't have a filter. They don't consider what they are saying, and have no real idea it will hurt you. OF course, when you tell them you are hurt, then that's what they get defensive, because they don't want to have done something wrong.

I've done what you done just started giving it back to him with commenting.

It's a touchy subject because nobody likes to feel sexually used.  I think most of us want to be loved and touched with kindness, want our sexual experiences to be shared and mutually fulfilling.  I think sex carries much more weight than other communication issues in our relationships.  I guess I can handle it if she does on some kind of rage and says all kinds of mean things, but when it comes to sex, an un-loving, disrespectful attitude really messes with me.  And of course if I even come close to trying to bring this up with her, her defenses go through the roof, and things feel much worse.  In most areas I think I can be an emotional leader in this r/s, but this is not one of them.  I don't think I can put the "cart before the horse" here.  My wife clearly has issues with sex that require serious psychological help.  I think I am on real thin ice if I try to navigate those issues, and I think my best course here is to not push things.

And the rest may be TMI, but I think relevant... .I will try to keep on topic.

I had a previous girlfriend, likely BPD, who had what I considered an awkward and unhealthy obsession with a part of my anatomy.  She went so far as to create pet names for that part of my anatomy, name her computer hard drive with that pet name, and ask me awkward questions regarding that, and about my brother and my father    .  It was just incredibly uncomfortable, and I felt used and violated.

When I met my now wide, we had a conversation about this - with me explaining that my previous relationship left me feeling used in this area.  My wife listened, but did get uneasy with the thought of me being sexual with anyone else prior to her.  Fast forward to now.  As I mentioned, the past month or so has been rough in this area, with her mostly being cold and not in the mood.  the past week, she has been turned on again, but now it's all about sex, not about love.  At least that is what I feel - with her wanting to grab at me and make crude jokes or comments, especially around certain areas of my anatomy.  And I am back to kinda feeling used again.  Last night she even commented in bed about how I once told her my ex was obsessed in a certain way, and she now declared she is "obsessed" in that way.  I just feel incredibly uncomfortable. 

Blah I'm so sorry Max D: My husband told me before he hates sex and the pressures that come with it, and if he never had sex again, he wouldn't care. Then, he continuously asks me how I feel, and I'm honest. I tell him I understand how he feels, and sex isn't everything to me, and not the most important, but I do miss it and would like a healthier sex life. Usually what's going to follow after that is asking me if I'm cheating, if I did he doesn't blame me, when I say I'm not and I don't want to, his answer is always "But you could. Admit that you could." He NEEDS me to say I can if I want to. I guess it all comes from that insecurity he's feeling.

I don't know. I guess I'll just... .keeping trying.

ColdEthyl  

It puts us in a very difficult situation, damned if we do and damned if we don't. It's a lot harder when the comment is being made to us about someone else given the whirlwind of our own relationships. I know with myself it's around feeling secure and often these comments come at a time when we don't feel so secure and have our own level of self doubt. I guess it's all about timing and those types of comments aren't exactly best placed.

Personally I also find it very ironic, because I'm supposed to be the one with no filter.  :) Yet I do have an understanding about when to say something and when not. My default if I'm unsure of saying something is not to say anything until I process it through in my head especially if I sense it might hurt someone by saying it.

How has commenting back worked for you? Does it make things better or worse? I know in my case it doesn't work because it plays on her insecurities and sends her into a downward spiral. I don't want to do that to her so I've stopped but at a complete loss as to how to handle the situation.

He doesn't react. It's like I was one of his buddies talking football. We started talking about things last night but he was drinking, so I should have known it wasn't going too well. He brought up this facebook app I play. It's a game that you breed sell/animals in. He said with all the typing I do I must be talking to another guy. *sigh* No... .I type to make sales and to name pets. I talk to another person once a week maybe. Most of the people who play this game are female. All I could keep saying was I understand how he feels, and I could see why he might think that, but this is what I am doing.

I made the mistake of JADE by trying to show him. Do you know what he said? I'm not looking at it, I don't have my glasses on and I can't read it. I tried to read it out loud and he just kept repeating that phrase.

He had to reject anything that didn't fit his narrative. This morning, he was fine. He blew it all off and said honey... .don't be listening to my dumb Sh**. I'm still a bit sad. I know I *shouldn't* feel bad, since I know his accusations come from his own insecurity about himself (he isn't happy with not working this past year. Right before this, he was saying how worthless he was), but I still do feel sad sometimes about what he thinks. It's really sad that I am completely faithful  to the point where I even feel bad looking at a shirtless man on TV, but he still thinks these things of me. Frustrating.

I'm glad I'm working today. I can take the day to process it, let it go and start fresh when I get home. It really must suck to be that insecure all the time, that you think your spouse could be cheating over a facebook app game.

I'm going to make a bit of a stretch here... .but... .think about the feeling that you have when you say "i feel horrible".

I'm going to think that you were wanted to be "validated"... .that you were "worthy" or "attractive".  Depending on how the "turn down" happened... .it may not have been "invalidating"... .it may just have lacked validation.  Or... .if horrible things were said... .it could be "invalidating" to you.

So... .here is the stretch... I hope this works... .   :)

Hopefully this will impress on you the importance of validation in a r/s... .and even more so the importance of staying away from "invalidating" your partner... .especially if that partner displays BPD traits.

Thoughts?  Does the stretch or the connection work?

First... key thing is "don't react"... .but "respond appropriately".

HUGE difference... .HUGE. 

So... we can all agree the comment is ridiculous and is most likely designed for you to "take the bait" and start a fight. The probably don't consciously think this... .but that is the "order to the disorder" that it seems that way.

My suggestion is that you just ask for help understanding how to best respond to that comment... .be even in your delivery.  Be ready for come backs such as "So you are saying I'm doing something wrong... .?"... .don't agree or disagree... .

Make it all about you wanting to understand the comment... .eventually work it around to "how is that comment helpful to our r/s?"

Listen for things and feelings to validate.  And eventually... .get to the point of telling her that in your opinion you would rather not listen to those comments from her.

Don't say that she is wrong for making them... just make a request that she not make them.

Thoughts?  Can you practice this alone several times before attempting it?

Formflier, that makes perfect sense. Many thanks for your response.

At the time, I felt a little hurt and taken aback and although I didn't say anything, I think it showed. Its one of the comments that comes out of left field but the way you describe the process below, its something that could be applied to several comments.

Again, many thanks

 

And... .it can be said honestly. 

Here the thing... .when a whacky comment comes out of left field.  I really do need help understanding. So... I focus on trying not to be a smart ass... and giving an even delivery... .but with practice that gets pretty easy.

Because... .I really do need help understanding... .

It's a comment... .and a "point of view"... .

I'm wondering if the sex/intimacy issue is such a difficult one because, at either a conscious or unconscious level, our SO's know it's the one area where they have us over a barrel.  With effort and time, most of us can set and enforce boundaries, carve out time/activities for ourselves, etc. in other areas of our lives.  But we're constrained when it comes to sex, either because of our personal morals/values or because we know cheating will irreparably damage the r/s.  So it's their way or the highway, and they know it.

I'm saddened when I read how young some of you are and facing life with no physical intimacy.  I'm 53 and been married over 30 years, and I'm certainly not ready for permanent celibacy.  I don't mean to be crude, but I'd like to use it a while longer while it still works! 

This is definitely a tough one for all of us.  What to do?  I don't really know... .   

 

Jedi,

Looking at if from their shoes... .their point of view... .we have them over a barrel as well... .and... .on some level they know it.

I would express it in this way.

The way "nons" and "pwBPD traits" relate on many issues is very different.  Not saying wrong or right... .just very different.  Usually the more intimate... .the more "something" matters... .the "odder" the differences can be in the way we communicate.

Once you realize that intimate things really matter and that on issues that "really matter" it is easier for both sides to get their feelings hurt... .you have a recipe for disaster.

We see that disaster all over these boards.

Luckily... .we also see on these boards that with patient... consistent use of the rules... .tools... .boundaries... .and the realization that these styles of communication are different... .not that they are right or wrong... .    We see real lasting change and deeper more satisfying intimacy.

The thing for me is he's still working and progressing. 4 years ago, we couldn't even talk about his issue like we do now. So, I really do think over time we will get to a different plateau. My SO is 49, so what I hear a lot is about 'how old he is' and 'this is what i get for marrying an old man' he reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally is insecure about aging. Not a huge fan of it.

Since I know where it's coming from, I can work towards a common goal. Flier gave me some great communication ideas that might help us out. It's about finding the right way to say things that don't trigger his insecurities and overall BPDness.

BTW flier... .I DID try the 'take a shower with me' bit on Christmas. He was laying in bed reading his laptop and I started to massage/kiss him, and talking dirty and being aggressive like he said he needed. My offer was a damn good one... .I offered a BJ for him... .no expectations, no string attached.

At one point when I looked up from kissing his neck, he was staring right at me, and it was a look that I knew I was about to be brushed off. He said he needed a shower, I offered to shower with him. He declined, and asked for a rain check.

/sigh back to the drawing board.

ColdEthyl,

Thanks for trying... .it sounds like you did your best.  And I want to assure you he noted the effort... .who knows when or if it will be acknowledged... .but he noticed. 

Any idea if it triggered any emotions in him?  Did he seem frustrated... .or mad? 

I'm wondering if there was a point in there where some validation would have "tamped down" his internal desire to brush you off.

Last thought for now... .when is the rain check scheduled for?  I would push for something soon... .best is to mutually agree on it when the rain check is offered... .

Such as sure honey... .no problem on a rain check.  See you here in 3 hours!... .something like that.

Again... .thanks for the effort and thanks for sharing this intimate part of your life with everyone on the board.  I think it will help more people that you can ever imagine... .

I'm hoping so. I see others have the same problems, and probably more who are not comfortable talking about it. I will ask him about that rain check tonight :)

No flier there isn't anything in particular, it's just he is very high self-conscious about his ED (whether psychical or mental, still up in the air), and nothing I say can make him feel better about it. I had hoped over time my continued attention to him, expressing my desire for him, complimenting him would bring him around.

I don't want to make this an issue where I try to force him to go to a doctor, or put boundaries on it. It doesn't seem fair of me to do that if he's having a physical issue.

I know what you are trying to say here FF but I have done and tried so many different things with regards to the physical parts of our relationship only to get nothing in return. My husband seems to be incapable of making an effort for me. Maybe the sex addiction is complicating things but I have read so many different things and tried so many different approaches to get some kind of release/attention/whatever with my husband. The more I gave and tried, the more he wanted. He never saw it as "I appreciate your effort so I am going to try to make an effort for you." That is not how things work for my husband.

When I read your suggestion, it makes me very, very sad because I feel like I have tried everything. I used to rub his back at night like his mom did so he could fall asleep. And I would hold HIM or cuddle on him even though he would turn his back to me. Now, I have moved to the couch and that is where I sleep because I cannot take all of the rejection.

ColdEthyl, does he have any other physical issues that might exacerbate his ED?  I dealt with ED for a while, but when I lost weight and started exercising, I was back to my old self eventually.  In the meantime I was only too glad to get a little pharmaceutical help.  If he's at all interested in physical fitness, perhaps he'd be willing to try the drugs on an interim basis while he worked on his health.  Something like, "How about we give it six months while we both get some exercise and get a little more fit, and see if that helps? And if you'd be willing to consider Viagra just as a helper during that time, it would just be with the goal of not having to use it?"  

I don't know your situation but just a thought... .

It's a snowball effect as you can imagine. He hasn't worked in a year, so he has put some weight on. Add a dash of depression, self-body issues, issues with aging, and a big ol scoop of BPD and he doesn't stand a chance.

I would be ok with him having Viagra, but he won't go to the doctor. He doesn't like medicine, he won't take it. I've had the Viagra talk a few times with him, and what it ended up like was with dysregulation and him saying things like "You would be ok with that? A medicated D***? You know it's nature's way of saying you are old and too old to be reproducing, and that's what sex is for"

FML. 

I think there could be a middle ground between "forcing" him to go to the doctor and not saying anything at all.

Here is the thing... .there is a very important part of his body that may not be working correctly... .(I'm assuming he has not had a full workup).  Sure... .he may not "die" from this... .but it is critical to how he is able to function in a r/s.

If it was a kidney that was failing... .how would you approach him to go get it checked out?

I believe that if you think of it in this way... you may be able to find the appropriate words to approach him with.

Thoughts?

And that's what sex is for... .


That is a great line to bring up again for a "help me understand... " talk.

On the off chance that he really believes that... .a quick look at a psych or biology textbook can slay that notion quickly.  There are relatively few species that engage in sex for "just pleasure"... .we are one of them.

If he is religious (Christian)... .I can help point to the right place in the Bible.

If he doesn't believe that but continues to say that... .

Time for another "help me understand... ." talk about why he says things he doesn't believe... .

Hang in there... .and thanks again for sharing...

 

Hey Vortex... .!  Hope you had a good Christmas.

Quick comment... .think about who has the power and how that contributes to how you feel in your r/s.

If you are on the couch because of his rejection... .or something along those lines... .who has the power there?

If you are on the couch now because you have chosen to go there... .who has the power there?

I would encourage you to think about how the way you think about these things affects the way you "carry yourself"... .in your r/s.

Hint... .my suggestion is almost always that nons should try to claim power by making choices... .because one of the things I remember being frustrated by was feeling powerless... .

He's not religious or anything like that... .this is an obvious attempt to justify not going to the doctor. He HATES the doctor's office. Personally, I think part of it is because he's Native and if anyone has had to go to an Indian hospital, you would understand a bit better.

I haven't said nothing, in fact I have asked him to go. I've offered to go with him for support. The biggest line he always starts out with anytime the subject comes up is:

"You don't know what it's like. Your parts always work for sex, no matter what." I concur I cannot understand that, but I do understand if I couldn't have it anymore, I'd be going to the MFing doctor to get blue pills, green pills, orange pills or anything else they wanted to give me.

It's the embarrassment, the age factor, and probably fear of finding out other things might be going on. I would put money on the latter. He's paranoid, as often BPDers are.

I would probably agree it's the latter.  Obviously I can't wrap my mind around his thinking, but I can tell you that when things stopped working for me, embarrassment was suddenly not an issue.  Our family doc is female.  When I went to visit her I put on my best "aw shucks" expression and just told her plainly what was going on.  Whereupon she simply smiled and said, "Well fortunately we have a couple of options to take care of that," and proceeded to explain the differences between Viagra, Cialis, and Levitra, and asked me which one I thought would suit our lifestyle. Wrote the magic words on her prescription pad and wished me luck.  Like most things the reality was much easier than the anticipation.  Of course with BPD their fears are their reality, but just so you know from a guy's perspective the reality is not a big deal. The pill gives you a little light headache when it kicks in, but that's how he knows it's showtime.     

That might be TMI, but I thought it might be helpful to have a perspective from someone who's been there for comparison to his comments.

I'd like to echo others thoughts on this... .nothing is worse than the person you love and desire to be intimate with to simply tell you to "go ahead, have sex with my body and get it over with"... .So cold and disconnected, the opposite of the early days sex romps although even then if I reflect it was without eye connection or in the dark due to her poor self image despite a rockin body?  Why didn't we run?  I'll tell you - we thought, hey who says what is "normal" vs abnormal and so we, the givers/pleasers show our patience and love and accept the dysfunctionality of our sexual lives.  I was a confident, good lover before this BPD wife, now I question everything in that realm and that is not attractive to any new lovers, I'm sure... .

Thanks FF! I did have a good Christmas. A few hiccups here and there but overall pretty good.

I started out on the couch or with the kids because of the rejection. I started out wanting him to chase me. I wanted him to come get me or ask me to come to bed with him. Actually, I am not even so sure about that now. I think it started out more as me doing all of the parenting and being flat out exhausted and falling asleep with the kids. For years, I did all of the parenting on my own for the most part. In the early years, we both made a big deal out of sleeping in the same bed every night. My leaving our room did not start out as a power struggle. It started out as a by product of having 4 young kids.

I think the problem arose because I would fall asleep with the kids but he wouldn't come and get me. Before he was diagnosed with diabetes, he was up all hours of the night going to the bathroom. I asked him repeatedly to come get me so that I could share a bed with him. All of my requests went unheard and were ignored. There were nights when I would struggle to stay awake so I could go sleep with him and give him some attention. When I would try to go to bed with him, he would be sprawled all over the bed and wouldn't budge so there was no place for me.

Now, I choose the couch as a very conscious decision. I have tried to sleep in the bed with him a couple of times here and there. There is no intimacy. I am talking cuddling, snuggling, non-sexual stuff. He will try to snuggle and cuddle but it seems that it ends up at sex that usually leaves me feeling dirty and used. Or, there were times when I would want to talk or connect on some level but he would just fall asleep. I have tried so many different things to get some kind of intimacy and connection with him. I am a firm believer in the healing power of touch. In all of the literature that I have read over the years, I have seen time and time again how physical touch can be healing. Now, it has reached the point where being touched by him makes me feel a bit repulsed because of all of the damage in the other areas of our lives.

I am angry because now that I have made the choice to not sleep in the room with him, he will come find me and wake me up and will tell me that he is just doing what I have always asked him to do. Huh? He has been off work for the last week and he has been following me around like a puppy dog. He has been sleeping in his recliner or on the floor of the kids' room next to me. What I want more than anything is some space. I can't think straight any more.

Oh don't worry, it's not TMI for me, as you will see with my posts. It takes a lot to offend me... .lucky for my husband rofl

I think if I just keep nudging over time he will go. I'd really hate to pull the "go or I go" card on this. It feels wrong to use his abandonment issues against him just so I can get a piece.

I agree... that seems a bit much for where you are at now.  But somehow... it would seem he needs a harder "shove"

Especially if he hasn't had a full physical in a while... there could be other issues... .blood pressure could be one that affects ED (I think... I'm not DR... but have heard that)

There could be all kinds of things, and he hasn't been to a doctor since he had his accident at work last year. Even then, when he fell out of a tree and a 3rd degree AC joint shoulder separation it took me over 24 hours to convince him to go.

This is just one of those gray areas for me. One one hand, this isn't a good reason to pull a boundary on him for something he can't control physically, but on the other there could be other issues going on that we need to know about. I have pushed about going for checkups, and it doesn't do me any good.

Hey... .just so we get the lingo "right"... .boundary is not the appropriate term here.

A boundary is for you.  Trying to get someone else to do something is a request or a rule... .

*mod*

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation... .