BPDFamily.com

Help.  I am so so sad. Our son is going overseas with the military for a year.  He has volunteered.  He is leaving his dbwife, and three kids.  I think he is partially happy to be going so he can get away from his wife.    He never complains about her to us.  He won't talk at all.  

We are so intimidated by her.

We all march to our dil's marching orders.  It's absolutely sick.  She's covertly threatening us to "stay away from him" while he is in another country.  She has total and complete control over him, and our interactions with him.

I want to say something to my son about her threats and the way she treats me.  I never do because it would backfire.  But I feel like I'm losing my son and my sanity.

It feels as if he is distancing himself more and more from us.  I feel like we are losing him more than ever.  I am terrified.  Help.  What can I do? 

Maybe I'm the one going the "most" crazy.  Maybe if I was more sure of his love for me, I would not be crying my eyes out.  And that's what I'd like to tell him.  I just don't know how.

Sadie O,

It's stressful enough having your son heading off overseas but to have a BPD DIL makes things even harder.  I'm sorry your having to deal with both. 

My suggestion about talking with him about his wife is that it might be something to broach with him once he's been away for a little while and not so much under her influence.  He will hopefully come out of the FOG (Fear, Obligation & Guilt) used by his wife to control him. Below is a link about FOG... .emotional blackmail.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

What types of threats is she making?  Can you describe a little more about what your relationship with her looks like?  Is your son aware of what is going on?  How has he reacted?  Are you able to have a relationship with your grandchildren?

I'd like to direct you to the [L5] Coping and Healing in a Family with a BPD Parent, Sibling, or Inlaw Board there you will find other members in situations similar to yours.  I encourage you to post your story, ask questions and read others posts as well as the other resources on our site.

Please know that you are not alone although everyone on this site comes at BPD from different angles we all know where you are coming from.  You will be heard, you will be understood, you will be believed and you will be supported.

I'm glad you've found us and look forward to your voice being part of the group.

*welcome*

Panda

Thank you, Panda, for the reply.  Excuse me; I'm feeling pretty, guilty, and ashamed; thinking about my part in driving our son away from home and into the arms of a literal "hysteric."  I am trying to face my demons.  Hoping that if I come clean with him and apologize for my mistakes, that he will forgive. To be specific, my husband was emotionally abusive with him, and I tried to protect him; leaning towards off-and-on emotional enmeshment I suppose.  I hate the the word emotional "incest."  But in reality, I suppose it was, because of the triangulation.  My h was occasionally physically abusive towards me as well. So it hasn't always been pretty.

It's been 7 years since our son left our home abruptly and got involved with his girlfriend and "pregnant."  My h and I have both corrected our ways, because of the affect of the obvious dysfunction.  However, we find it difficult to have any kind of open conversation with our son because our dil refuses to leave him alone with us.  And, he is emotionally closed off to us, for the most part.  When he goes on active duty, he will really be off limits. We refrain from writing anything potentially upsetting, so that he can be "on top of his game" so to speak.

As to her threats: Originally, she threatened me to "stay away from him, she is his wife, his friend, etc... "  That's history.  I am intimidated by her.  She tells me, "I am the alpha female in all situations."  She used to physically stand between my son and I.  She schedules all vacations, or family times, and gets angry if she does not get her way.  She has called and attacked me verbally.  She insults my husband and I.  She screams at her kids, and at our son.

She has gotten a little more controlled with her emotions, since my husband has put a firm boundary down, that she will not attack me.  She says she is afraid of him.  But she's not afraid of me.  I'm on the bottom of the pecking order.  I know all about FOG.

I know first-hand, the hot-n-cold of a bp.  I know what it's like to "go from the penthouse to the outhouse" in a nano-second.    I see our grandchildren getting jerked around, and it's horrible. I don't know how to talk to our son about any of it . . . but thank you for the suggestion to wait until he has been absent from the FOG for awhile.  

I've posted a few times before and appreciate the responses.  I hope things become more tolerable.  At times it looks like things are getting better, then it looks like hell again.  I will keep reading and reaching out.  Thank you.  

PS  I look at the recent FB posts of our family Christmas, and think, "What a nice family.  But it sucks, because I KNOW how much some of us are hurting.   

   I have spent two days journaling, looking within myself.  I am looking at recent events that have bothered me greatly.  I want to be more comfortable, and not tied to the actions of my S and DIL.  For instance, this Christmas, my dil was "in charge" of scheduling our Christmas "together."  She announced that they were coming back to our state for Christmas.  We were immediately excited.  My husband sent my dil money to help for gas.  I started planning meals and inviting people over to visit while they were here.

Then my dil unexpectedly announce that if anyone wanted to see our son, who will be leaving soon, for active duty overseas, will have to come to them at her mother's house.  We were deflated, confused and hurt.     However, my parents, my husband and I did as she wished, and two days before Christmas, drove a distance of 65 miles to her mom's house to see them.  Our son came out to greet us.  But our dil, stayed on the couch, staying cool and keeping her distance from us.  We had a good time with the kids and our son.  ***Here is an observation.  In general, our son is quiet, but pleasant. Though he is pleasant, the "distance" he keeps from us is uncomfortable.  A little conversation would be nice.  Is this just his personality? Did they not want us there?

On Christmas day, my husband and I drove back to watch the kids open their presents.  When we walked in the door, our dil and her mother did not turn to greet us.  This is just rude.  It is not the first time.  I don't understand this either.  Do they not want us there, or is this their personality, or learned way of behaving.

****Notice that there are three people not overly enthusiastic that we are there, including my son.  Is he learning this behavior from his wife and mil? 

After opening presents, we go to a gathering of my dil and her mother's extended family.  WE ARE GREETED WARMLY!  They go out of their way to make us feel welcome!  At one point a family member made a joke about my dil's temper.  Everyone laughs, including my dil!  I think she is proud of her reputation.  That temper, and narcissistic personality that keeps me feeling smaller and smaller. 

When it was time to say our good-byes, my husband and I reached out to give our son a big warm hug.      Our son responded with a very luke-warm hug.  He even rolled his eyes when his dad encouraged him to hug me.  Both his dad and I cried on our drive home, and for days after.

This rudeness from my son stirred up my fear of abandonment and rejection!  It's my worst fear.  This is what we were left with to remember for a year.  Is it us?  How do I cope? 

I am reading through a book called The Object of my Affection is in my Reflection.  It's primarily about narcissism, but also covers codependency, BPD, etc...   A lot of things I read, unpleasantly, ring true in our situation.  I don't want to believe that my son is arrogant, or that he might care less about us.  How much have I contributed, and can I do anything to undo what has been done?

Hi SadieO

I would like to welcome you to the coping and healing board

Having to deal with someone who has BPD is often very difficult. I am glad you're reaching out for support and advice here and like Panda39 says, you aren't alone here. Many of our members will be able to relate to you.


How was your son before he met her? Was he always this distant also when he still lived with you? You mentioned that your husband was emotionally and sometimes also physically abusive towards your son. You also mention your own role in his childhood and the mistakes you might have made. Admitting these kind of things isn't easy, but by doing so you've made the first step towards healing |iiii Do you feel like the abuse your son suffered during his childhood and also the emotional enmeshment could be a at least a partial explanation for why he seems to be so 'standoffish' with you?


You can't undo what has been done but you can work on doing things differently from now on. To do that, it's important to first accept the reality of the past and how this has effected the present. I think it might help you to take a look at an article we have on here about 'reality acceptance':

From suffering to freedom: Practicing reality acceptance (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90041.0)


When it comes to talking to your son, I also suggest you take a look at some of the communication techniques described on this website:

Communication Skills - Validation (https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation)

A 3 Minute Lesson on Ending Conflict (https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict)

Take care and I hope you'll find these resources helpful.

Hello Kwamina,

Thank you for your comments. 

My guess regarding the lukewarm greeting and farewell is that your son is "Walking on Eggshells" trying to keep the peace with his wife.  He can't show too much enthusiasm or he will trigger her fear of abandonment and she will start in on him.  You might want to take a look at the [L5] Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner Board to see what a BPD relationship can look like from the inside.  Or ask some of the folks on that board what kind of support they get or would like to get from their parents.


 

It is my belief that you and your husband create abandonment fear in your DIL so she doesn't like having you around... .in her mind you might convince the son to leave.

It is possible DIL is badmouthing you/your husband to her mother and  her mom either believes it or she too is codependent and bullied into following the DIL's lead or she could be BPD as well who knows?



 

You have just met the healthier part of the family that recognize something isn't right with DIL.




You keep loving your son, you keep in touch with him, and always let him know that you are there for him... .keep communication open. 

I am coming at BPD from a different angle than you are, I'm here because my boyfriend has an uBPDxw. 

He was married 17 years... .was codependent 17 years... .was an enabler for 17 years... .was breadwinner 17 years... .was/is parent of 2 daughters for 18 years (and still going).  He took his marriage vows very seriously and did everything he could to make his marriage work in spite of all the problems, drama, and pain his wife caused him, his daughters, extended family and friends.  It took him 17 years, the death of his father (and a deathbed promise to leave her), his mother telling him she didn't know who the hell he was anymore, and a brief on-line emotional affair with someone from his past (a reminder that he was lovable) for him to finally see what an unhealthy relationship he was in... .the cherry on top was uBPDxw verbally abusing the older daughter.

I know you are struggling with your relationship with your son but don't give up on him and try to see where he is coming from.  Learn as much as you can about BPD, learn ways to better communicate with your DIL, get yourself and your husband some therapy to share your concerns and problem solve, keep coming here and ask questions.

I can see how very much you love your son, It is my belief that the more you educate yourself the more help you can be to him.

Take Care 

Kwamina.  I read and responded to your questions, but somehow I lost everything I wrote.  I think because I don't know how to "quote" you.  I need to figure that out.

Anyway, I am listening and reading everything. 

Panda, you are right on several points: 1) He's walking on eggshells, trying to keep the peace, 2) dil's fear of abandonment is sparked when we are around, 3) See[L5] Staying: Improving a Relationship w/a Borderline Partner Board to ask what kind of support they get or would like to get from their parents! 4) Gratitude for meeting the healthy side of the family, 5) Keep loving and learning.

Thank you both for your listening to me and responding.  I know that you are hearing me.  The advice is wonderful.  It really helps.

Owning your behavior and offering your son a sincere apology for your part in the problems of his childhood would probably be much more helpful than pointing out flaws in his choice of a spouse. Are you able to apologize without making excuses or attaching expectations to how he should respond? Would you really mean it, whether or not he forgives you or wants to provide you with affection?


Is he behaving this way towards you because it makes things easier for him with his wife, because that's how she wants him to act? Possibly. Another possibility is that it has something to do with the emotional abuse you say he suffered from his father and the enmeshment/emotional incest (also emotional abuse) you say he suffered from you. I know I don't feel comfortable offering physical affection to my emotionally abusive parents. I care about them, but I do not want to hug them.


It sounds like it was a terribly painful experience for you. Have you considered working with a therapist to find ways to cope with your feelings of rejection and fear of abandonment? It can be really helpful to get professional support.

Wishing you peace,

PF

That's ok :) We've all been there, I've also lost some posts that way back in the days  I hope you'll find the material useful.

Hi PF,

:light: I've been thinking, and need to add, that though we had some family dynamics that were not pretty, the four of us; my h, my s, my dil, and myself, took action to heal wounds together and separately.  We attended a Christian 8 step program called "Celebrate Recovery: Healing Hurts, Habits, and Hang ups.  We had an awesome accountability group!  We also sat down as a family and talked about where we went wrong, and where we were going.  Both my bdil see counselors. And, she and I talk occasionally about our progress in our extended family, and in our separate nuclear families. 

Within the above context, I did apologize to my son for my part in the dysfunction.  And though I have done so, I will explore the need to do so again if perhaps it wasn't really heard the first time. 

Anyway, I thought I would add that information to help complete our "Family History Picture."

PF.  I like to address a couple of your comments:

1st) "Owning your behavior and offering your son a sincere apology for your part in the problems of his childhood would probably be much more helpful than pointing out flaws in his choice of a spouse." (I agree) 

2nd) "Are you able to apologize without making excuses or attaching expectations to how he should respond? Would you really mean it, whether or not he forgives you or wants to provide you with affection?"

Yes, I am able to apologize without making excuses or attaching expectations.  Yes, if an apology is needed, it would be sincere regardless of his reaction.  I can't control whether or not he forgives me or provides me with affection. 

3rd) "It sounds like it was a terribly painful experience for you. Have you considered working with a therapist to find ways to cope with your feelings of rejection and fear of abandonment? It can be really helpful to get professional support."

I need to do that.

Thanks

I've been thinking again, and reading.  I admitted to our family dysfunction online.  My reasoning was that I believe that transparency is essential in recovery. 

I think my h and I have made significant strides forward.  As parents, we realized that we let our issues escalate.  Now, if we ever get into a situation where our emotions are escalating, we walk away for awhile.  Our son and BPDil see this.  They know that we are sorry for letting thins get out of hand.  They know that we are on the same page (even so, I am going to reveal our past to a counselor, in hopes that it will help.  And see if there is anything I can do.)  I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that our struggles had an effect on our son, which is why he left home so early, and got tangled up in a mess with a dBPD.  For which, I am sorry. 

I've got to feel better.  Stronger.  More sure of myself.  I am besought with anxiety, grief, etc... I can't undo the past.  I can only change in the present.  I've got to forgive myself.

Our son has been reserved, cautious, and quiet for most of his life.  At work, they say he keeps his head down and does his job.  I see his negative side as well.  It's difficult to hold a conversation with him.  Even about the weather.  There are huge gaps in the conversation that I feel the need to fill in.  It's uncomfortable.  When he is relaxed, it's better.

I have to say, that good comes out of bad.  Even though ddil causes huge rifts, the positive is that she has taught us to lay everything on the table. She is pretty self-aware.  Even to the point of telling us that she doesn't want us around, because she is afraid that we will influence our son into leaving her.

Wish us luck.  Thanks for listening.

Hi again SadieO


We can only heal the things we acknowledge so I think you're absolutely right when you say transparency is essential to recovery.


Sounds like you've indeed made some huge progress |iiii Walking away or taking a step back is often a very good strategy to help defuse a situation and/or give yourself some space to determine how to move forward.


Accepting the reality of the past and how this has influenced the present can be difficult. But it is a crucial step to take if you want to move forward. By acknowledging reality as it really is and not denying it, you are giving yourself the opportunity to try and heal at least some of the wounds from the past.

Take care and good luck on your journey towards healing! :)

I've just read the article, "Was Part of Your Childhood Deprived by Emotional Incest" again.  It's painful.  I know that is part of what happened.  I woke up this morning and started writing my thoughts down, in letter form, to my son.  Apologies.  I don't know what the final revision will look like, but I'm on my way.  There will be no way to communicate with him, except through written letter, while he is overseas - - I tend to think that will not be a good time to communicate something emotionally upsetting.

The enmeshment was not intentional.  It was a reaction.  However . . . Possibly it will help him release some of his anger that is caused by past hurt.

Family dynamics are passed down through the generations.  Even though I was fully aware of my family dynamics, and wanted to prevent them from being passed down to my progeny, it happened anyway.  In my family of origin, my mother was the raging alcoholic.  My father was away at work a lot of the time, and probably didn't know how much his only daughter was enduring.  He didn't mean for me to be hurt.  But, I was.  I didn't mean for my son to be hurt, but he was.

There is a lot of information and help out there for the children of dysfunctional families.  What about for parents, like myself and my husband, who want to make amends  with  their children?  And, go forward with a fresh start?

This all relates to BPD because, in my opinion, our son needs to be aware of his past hurt, in order to go forward, and better relate to his dBPDwf.  Which is challenging, in and of itself.    

I think you're probably right about this. When he's overseas he'll have a lot of other stressors to deal with it. Even if he doesn't get to see this write away, writing this down can also be helpful in another way. It helps you get your story out and organize your thoughts and that can also help in your own healing.


It's unfortunate that this has happened, but at least you are able to see clearly what went on. This insight is very important as you start to heal.


I understand where you're coming from here. What kind of information are you looking for specifically? Are you primarily looking for resources that can help you make amends with your son and/or help you acknowledge and accept your own role in the dysfunction?

Based on how you describe your own childhood, I would say that you yourself are also a one of the children that has come out of a dysfunctional family. In that sense, many of our resources here also apply directly to you. Do you feel like you've been able to accept the reality of your own childhood and how this has impacted you?

Many of the members on this message board were raised by parents in what can be described as a dysfunctional environment. This greatly affects children. It has affected your son, but you yourself will probably also have been affected by your own parents' behavior. Children raised in such an environment often learn various forms of unhealthy behavior from their parents. They also often develop coping mechanisms that might have been helpful back then but are unhealthy in the long-run.

On here we call the learned unhealthy behaviors fleas (my-issues). Fortunately, through hard work like you're doing right now, these unhealthy behaviors can also be unlearned or at least better managed. You clearly state in your post how you was hurt as a child and how your family dynamics were passed down through you. The enmeshment is something you've come to realize is problematic. Are/Were there also other learned behaviors of yours that you would describe as unhealthy or damaging to your son, yourself or other members of your family?

How is this going?

  Our son has been overseas and away from his family for 4 months now.  Quite a challenge for his wife and children.  I have been excited about the growth that our entire family is experiencing.  I'm so happy to say that our son has contacted us and sounds better than ever.  I am once again confident in his love for us. It is so obvious to me now that I've struggled with my pain; and then stepped back to see with clear eyes.  I am praising God for this. 

So reminded me of the actions of our son.  What, I believe, you saw was shame - he was so ashamed of how his family was being treated.  We have been there and come "out on the other side". 

Hi SadieO,

I'm so happy to hear that your family is moving forward from the past in a positive way.

After reading through this thread it's heartening to see how you took responsibility, took positive action, kept the focus on yourself and the power you have to make positive change in all your relationships.  You didn't get derailed by focusing on blame and you used your pain as a motivator.  This is awesome!

Did you send the letter you wrote to your son or some version of it?

How is the dil coping with your son's absence?  What is your relationship like w/her at this time?  

I'm sure it would mean a lot to your son if he knew you were able to be there for his wife and kids, supporting them and leaning on one another in his absence.  

I look forward to learning more about your experiences and path to healing.



lbjnltx

I have an update.   :)  My son has called us twice since his deployment 3 months ago.  The last call was to wish me a happy Mother's Day.  We talked for over an hour.  I was a fun, easy conversation.  THIS is the person I used to know!

I really think, being away from his BPDwf frees him up to be happy and spontaneous! 

I have been very happy since his phone call.  I'm so sure that he loves my husband and I.  I think that he is scared to express himself around his BPDwf.

Ironically, she knows he called.  The irony is it can't just stay good - - she called me and chastised me for something that I did wrong.  It's irrelevant what the criticism is; it's just another assault in the Villification, or Distortion Campaign.  She stole my joy, again.  That's what she does.

lbjntx,

Hello,  I am having so much trouble quoting someone.  Making quite a mess of it.  Sorry.

":)id you send the letter you wrote to your son or some version of it?

I wrote a letter, that I never sent.  Then I sent bits and pieces of the letter that were affirming and positive in emails.  No criticism of him, nor his wife.  In fact.  I praised both of them for various things.  I told him that I was sure of his love for us, and gave specifics.  And, as usual, I told him how much we loved him and admired him.  I affirmed him of the mutual love between he and his wife, and children.

"How is the dil coping with your son's absence?  What is your relationship like w/her at this time?"

She is doing better than I thought she would.  They both have days that they really miss each other.  They are able to talk to each other once a week.

"I'm sure it would mean a lot to your son if he knew you were able to be there for his wife and kids, supporting them and leaning on one another in his absence."

Yes, I think he appreciates our support of his family.

Thank you for your support.

Sadie  

 "What is your relationship like w/her at this time?"  

This is a good question.  At first it was good.  My dil was being strong for her husband and kids.  She was reaching out to us, offering support, concerned with how we were dealing with our son's deployment.  She sent us a deployment box with things in it, like his picture.  And, a ":)eployment Journal for Parents."  She and I were talking, sharing our experience on a mature, adult to adult level.

3 months into the deployment, my BPDil is starting to "go dark" as I sometimes describe her mood.  Perhaps she is not coping as well as I thought.  She called me recently, to criticize me.  So at this point, we are not doing well.

She and the power she wields, scares me.  Her darkness scares me.  Her criticisms of me hurt.

Sadie  

"In general, our son is quiet, but pleasant. Though he is pleasant, the "distance" he keeps from us is uncomfortable. "  (Sadie)

"So reminded me of the actions of our son.  What, I believe, you saw was shame - he was so ashamed of how his family was being treated.  We have been there and come "out on the other side". 

I have seen this!  The shame of how his wife was acting, treating the kids, him, and us. I'm so glad that you have come out on the other side.  That is encouraging. :)

Another thing I've seen our son do, besides calming her, is to be the adult.  I remember the time she was belittling my husband and I.  He said, "Honey, you have to respect people."  And she quit.

Sadie

Kwamina

"I think you're probably right about this. When he's overseas he'll have a lot of other stressors to deal with it. Even if he doesn't get to see this write away, writing this down can also be helpful in another way. It helps you get your story out and organize your thoughts and that can also help in your own healing." Kwamina

Yep, exactly.

"I understand where you're coming from here. What kind of information are you looking for specifically? Are you primarily looking for resources that can help you make amends with your son and/or help you acknowledge and accept your own role in the dysfunction?" Kwamina

I have been reading a good book called "When Parents Hurt" by Joshua Coleman that helps with making amends, etc... .  It's a fantastic resource.  The other thing that I've been working through is "Praying for your Adult Children" by Stormie Omartian.  First step is to work through forgiveness, of yourself, and for your adult child.  From then on, specific scriptural prayers for your adult children get's your head out of your own "----"  (Sadie)

" Do you feel like you've been able to accept the reality of your own childhood and how this has impacted you?"  Kwamina

Absolutely!  Have done tons of work here.

"On here we call the learned unhealthy behaviors fleas (my-issues)." Kwamina

Now that's clever     my-issues

Are/Were there also other learned behaviors of yours that you would describe as unhealthy or damaging to your son, yourself or other members of your family?" Kwamina

Something to think about.  Unhealthy reactions to criticism and rejection = anxiety, self-deprication. (Sadie)

Thanks for the food for thought.   

I routinely keep a journal.  In this journal, I am presently recording the correspondence between our son and myself.  I intend to copy that to the ":)eployment Journal for Parents" that my dil sent us.  It helps to look back at those interactions.  Even if they are only a text!  I feel fortunate and blessed that our son feels the freedom to correspond, and obviously wants to communicate.  That freedom is curtailed when he is with his bpwf.  This deployment is a blessing.  I thank God for all the growth, and opportunity to communicate.     When the situation changes, and doubts flare, I can look back, and remind myself of what the Truth really is.  |iiii

One of the things I wrote him is the love that I see between him and my husband, and that it makes me so happy.  Though I am the "writer" in the family, my husband adds notes.  And, he is very generous with his affirmations, hugs, and "I love you, Son" declarations. 

My husband and I have sent one care package, and are getting ready to send another. We let him know in every way, that we not only love him, but also support him in his decisions concerning his family.  I can just "feel" this coming back to us through the written word.  I feel so fortunate and grateful right now.   

  Oh, I need to add - - Whenever possible, I affirm and encourage my dil of my son's love for her.  When I see my son showing affection towards her, I can genuinely smile and feel the warmth knowing that he really adores her and is passionate about her. 

I hope that it helps reduce her insecurities.  Her level of trust that he loves her and has no intention of leaving her has increased over the years. 

I'm not saying that all is perfect.  Just acknowledging the positive. 

Hi again SadieO!

Thanks for this update. I am very happy for you that you had such a nice conversation with your son :)

The situation with your DIL still poses certain challenges but I am glad that you are able to acknowledge the positive things. This can really help keep your own mood more stable.


You're welcome!

My son was not abused and is acting the same way.

You are getting good and hope filled advice. I'm glad to read it, too.

Thanks so much for the encouragement!  It is nice to step back and see what our relationship with our son is like, when the pwBPD is, more or less, out of the picture.  And it looks pretty healthy, I'm happy to say.

Allow me to elaborate on my statement, Dil is "more or less out of the picture;" she still tries to exert control over us, in every way she can. What we can say to him, or not.  What we can send him, or can't.  I can tell that she is a little scared of us having a relationship with our son.

I'm thinking about starting a new thread.  Is that what I need to do at this point?  I REALLY need to address what happens to my emotional health when our BPDil criticizes me, belittles me, controls me, vilifies me, etc... .  I stated in an earlier post, that she starts to go "dark."  And when she does, I get smaller and smaller, more and more frightened.  Very similar to living in the angry, alcoholic home of my youth.  I can't live my life trying to please her at all costs. 

And this is just the tip of the iceberg.  :'(

Do I stay here, because the history and background is laid out.  Or do I start a new thread, with a new subject?

Hi SadieO

I'm glad to get an update too and hear the communication with your son has opened up  |iiii 

To answer your question yes I would start a new thread.  Maybe start it will a little intro but we all can click on your name to look at past posts if we want more information (and you can do that with all of us too)

Panda39

My comment is very brief for SadieO.  I would hope for you to be in a frame of mind where the immature self-centered treatment of you by your DIL does not intimidate you.   To be intimidated just means you take her actions to mean something, when actually, they only mean to convey the lack of social graces and maturity on her part.  It is my hope that you can rise above that and be who YOU are without anyone able to change you.  People are transparent and she certainly enjoys the power you are letting her have over you. I understand that you need to be somewhat manipulative to be in contact with your grandchildren... .but perhaps you can develop a pity for her inside and not let her behaviors attach themselves to your self worth. You will carry yourself better as a result and be immune to her or her mother's behaviors. Obviously, they have found away to bond (DIL and her M) by forming an "us against' you" relationship, which is perhaps the only way her mother can even have a relationship with her.   Do what you can to be gracious with your son, when the time is write acknowledge and apologize for wrongs of the past and as others have suggested, do not mention the wife. Let him see you for who you are, without being in a rush to do so, it could take some time... .and eventually, the contrast between you and his wife will come up to his awareness. DO NOT cry or beg or act subservient to him or to her. Be calm, and continue to be warm hearted. That is who YOU are and no one should be allowed to change that.  And you and hubby start having fun together doing other things with other people, if you have not already. Give love, be patient.

I agree with Panda39! If you want to focus on some specifc aspects, you can indeed start a new thread. See you around :)

Dear Fixermom,

Thank you for your wise advice. It is excellent and quite perceptive. Thank you.  That is calm, self-assurance is the I want to head.  Thank you, everyone, for "listening" to me and seeking to understand first!  The fact that I knew you cared, softened my heart to receive.

Sadie

Hi SadieO,

I wanted to say hello and tell you how much I admire your approach to understanding what is happening with your son and your DIL, and your honesty in how you feel. Being able to focus on your son's feelings cannot have been easy when you were and are hurting so much. It feels awful to be the lowest rung on the pecking order, and it takes a lot to be able to withstand that kind of forceful criticism alone. How does your husband support you when you're going through these experiences?

I was married to a man who is BPD, and my family were targets of his anger and control, so I was in a role similar to your son. My mom in particular received the worst of it. She almost had a nervous breakdown because of the way my ex treated her. He would talk to everyone except her, avoided eye contact with her, put her down, humiliated her in public, and would not let our son use the name she wanted him to call her instead of grandma. She could do nothing right, he even criticized the way she breathed   . She is also a very emotional person and never witnessed conflict in her family of origin, although there was certainly plenty of dysfunction. No one in our family had any skills to manage the volume of conflict we experienced. Alcoholism runs through my family, and there is not a lot of emotional health and conflict repairing skills. I have had to learn in order to help my relationship with S13.

I'm divorced now, but when I look back at my mom's dynamic with BPD ex, I can see that there were the usual BPD dynamics in my ex (extreme rejection sensitivity, labile emotions, slow return to emotional baseline). These issues can trigger a lot of pain for the targeted person, and it is awful to be on the receiving end. My mom, lacking the skills, seemed to inflame the issues more than others in our family. I was at a loss as to why this was so. Now, almost 5 years later, my son has some BPD traits (he's 13), and I see my mom tripping the same triggers in my son. Only as S13 got older did I realize that there was something in their dynamic that was specific to them.

To try and help my mom go through this with S13, I've given her books to read about validation. We deconstruct interactions so she can understand better. I'm proud of her for being willing to hear what is not always easy feedback. She is a very kind person. She is also an invalidating person because she has such intense needs for validation of her own. I think this is common in families where there is emotional dysfunction.

There are some underlying generational "rules" involved in this, I think. When children feel invalidated by parents, it is a much more difficult type of invalidation -- it reverses the natural order of parent-child. Therefore, it can be difficult if, as the adult or parent in the relationship, you have unmet emotional needs and a BPD child in your life (no matter what age). Your DIL will likely be less tolerant of invalidation from you than she might be of a sister, for example.

The good news is that there are skills and tools to make things better. The bad news is that the core work is hard. It takes a lot of soul searching and courage. Nothing has been more painful in my life, not even my BPD divorce, than looking at my own role in the dynamic with my son. I have to be patient with my mom, understanding how challenging the struggle is. It is changing not only years of certain behaviors, it is changing generational scripts that she inherited from her family of origin.

My mom was not able to validate my ex -- she just couldn't do it. Her own emotional needs were too much, and BPD ex husband's emotional immaturity was such that he only had one speed, and that was to gun for my mom. It was so stressful to me that I hated when she came to visit. Over time, I stopped inviting her. She only came when it was a graduation ceremony or holiday. My parents never stayed with us, and they never visited for very long.

I don't know if any of this bears any similarity to your situation. I have some hunger to know exactly what it is like in other families, how they do things, how they interact, and so hope this is not more information than is helpful for you. I was thinking, while reading your post, that if my mother had the courage you are showing, and the willingness to look at your dynamic with such bravery, that it would have meant the world to me.

Hello livednlearned,

Thank you for posting.  I appreciate hearing from you and learning about your experience having a spouse with BPD, now a son with BPD traits, and a mom that you are helping to educate in the area of validation skills.  

Yes, it's horribly painful  to be the lowest in the pecking order. But it's not hard to focus on my son's feelings, perhaps because he is my child and I want the best for him.  My husband is very supportive!  It took him awhile to see what I was seeing.  The first time he saw my dil "come unglued" on me, we were both clueless about BPD. At the time, he may have thought I deserved it.  :'(  I truly was alone and unsupported.  

In the meantime, I had stumbled across "Stop Walking on Eggshells."  I was consuming it like a starving person.  Still, my h didn't want to hear any of that "psychological" stuff.  It wasn't until my dil "attacked" my son, while we were sharing a meal, that he started to see that something was amiss.  On that particular visit with them, she had several episodes of absolute raging.  My husband is a minister - - he married my son and dil.  But her behavior caused him to take our son to the side and tell him, "I will support you in your marriage, but if you decide to divorce her, I will walk you through it."  All he could say as we drove away was, "That B___!"  

That was twice he'd watched her be UGLY.   That was six or seven years ago.  Now, he listens to all that "psychological stuff" a little more.  Though, I am the one that still devours and studies it.  Mostly because, learning about BPD in particular, not only makes sense out of a crazy situation, but helps one stay on top, or walk out of it at least.


 I feel for you, as I do for our son.  I would like to understand this burden more.  So I don't add to the burden.

I feel for, and with, your mother , being the recipient of this emotionally abusive behavior:  
  I have been there :'(

I take it that you are referring to "validation skills" when you say,
 

And, now with your help, your mom is learning validation skills. That's admirable.  Previously, her need for validation would normally override her "motherly/adult" responsibility to give validation?  Yes, I think this is a common thread in families with emotional dysfunction.  

I know that before I went through counseling as an Adult Child of an Alcoholic, validating others was difficult because I had no idea how.  I was turned inward so much, that I couldn't reach outward.  I had erected walls to keep people from loving me, and made me incapable of loving others.  Those walls had to come down.  And, they did.  btw  On my Headstone, I want "She loved! . . .  Because He first loved her."

I learned to love.  I learned to empathize.  I learned to validate.  Nowthen . . . I do have to work at this with my dil; because she usually has me in a defensive mode. Quite frankly, most times she is emotionally abusive to me.  I often operate in the FOG the she creates.  Or, I am stumped by her illogical thinking.  Or I am taken aback by her treatment of the children!  Oh, the stories I could tell.    She's a very difficult person.  I find myself going "numb"  to block out the craziness.

All that said, though, I validate her when I can.  When I see something admirable, I'm quick to note it.  I not consciously aware that I invalidate her, I certainly don't try to invalidate her.  But, perhaps I do at times - - especially if I look at the world through her BPDeyes.  And when I do insult her or hurt her feelings, I apologize.  

What are the "skills and tools that you used to make things better.  I'm not afraid of hard work.  What is the core work?  I am curious about the nature of the soul searching that you speak of.  The role that you played in the dynamic with your son.

I admire your devotion as a mom to a S13 with BPDtraits, and as a daughter that cares enough about her mom to help. Do you think that the traits that your son are exhibiting are genetic, learned, or a combination?  I see our gchildren mimmic their mom's behavior, more now than when their dad was at home  Thank you for your willingness to share your experience.  And, for your validation of my courage and willingness to look at my part in the family dynamics.  I hope it makes things better for my kids.     

SadieO

I really like how you phrase this! "I was turned inward so much, that I couldn't reach outward."  :)  That describes so well what learning about BPD has been for me too. Thank you for describing it this way.


I imagine that this must be even harder for you because she is not your immediate child. My SO has an ex-wife with BPD traits and all of my physical defense responses kick in when I'm around her. My breathing gets shallow, I get a nervous twitch in my eye, my mouths gets dry, heart rate goes up. Do you think that "going numb" is a way to handle the fear response? I've been taking a mindfulness-based stress reduction class and this is helping. I pay attention to the physical feelings and try to stay present. Not easy.


Being willing to do this, to try and see things through her eyes, says a lot about you. To be abused like that, and then take a step back and consider how she is experiencing the world, even while you are the target -- that is hard stuff.


Mindfulness and validation are probably the ones that have made the biggest difference. Mindfulness helps me create a small pocket during intense moments so I can pause before I respond, instead of knee-jerk reacting. It is helping me learn to stay curious instead of being certain, which is hard when S13 is overwhelmed with feelings. I have to pay attention to the story I'm spinning in my own head, usually some worst-case scenario that I'm bringing to the interaction, making my own emotions triple in intensity. Boundaries -- that has been a big journey. I think of validation as one pillar, and boundaries as the other. Paying attention to my boundaries is the most important form of self-care that can create a big disturbance at first, and has remarkable effects when you stick to them. I see my son actually internalizing some of my boundaries and cannot believe we made it here. For this to happen, I had to let myself be vulnerable, which is not something I've allowed myself much in the past. Asserting boundaries while remaining vulnerable is one heck of a balancing act  :)  


My son's psychiatrist talks about epigenetics, which I interpret to mean that there are sleeper genes that can be triggered by environmental conditions. I suspect my son has a predisposition toward sensitivity, what some people call a sensitive genotype. In a securely attached family, it's possible he would've been more emotionally resilient. In our family, though, there was a razor thin margin, and with a BPD father and alcoholism in my family, it seems inevitable that S13 would pick up some of the traits. I used to say when he was a kid that he had big feelings, and while I was attentive and nurturing, I wasn't necessarily validating him.  

Do you wonder about your DIL's BPD and how she came to have these traits? It sounds like her family has endorsed her behavior (laughing at her temper).

Update. It does not surprise me that things are "up-and-down" especially in the BPD world.  Our dil talked to us and gave us the news that our 6 year old gd was given something for her anxiety, our 4 year old gs has been diagnosed with ADHD and apparently, our son got drunk and lost his phone.  I'm not surprised by any of it.   

I haven't heard from our son in awhile.  He's carrying a heavy load.  And so is our BPDil.  Our grand kids are "home alone" with a mom that's not stable.  And, a dad that is a long way from them.  

I won't cease praying for my son and dil, and our grandchildren.  I've been reading, and journaling.  Also practicing "radical acceptance" and "mindfulness." Doing OK.  Will see our BPDil and grandchildren July 4th weekend.

Hi livednlearned!  What an excellent question!
Yes, I do.  My dil suffered physical as well as emotional abuse from her father.  I am in agreement with the hypothesis that the BPD neurological set up is in place, and the abuse triggers whatever genes, etc.  that determine personality.  It's the old idea of nature plus nurture. 

As to her family; they all dance around our dil, doing whatever it takes to not set her off!  And we are expected to do the same.     

It is like this in my family with my uBPD brother. My parents -- my mom in particular -- are like hostages. She is so afraid to be split black and not see my nieces. Although relieved that I'm not longer married to N/BPDx, who was always gunning for her, and it always felt like we were on the tip of being estranged. The only way around that, at least at the time, was for me to go underground with my relationship to my parents. I only talked to them when I was alone and often from my work phone.

It's sad how we end up living when someone around us is undiagnosed and untreated.

Livednlearned,


That's what it's like for us, and I know our son is a hostage!  Perhaps, a willing hostage.  What is that syndrome where the hostage starts to identify with the captor, for survival purpose - - Stockholm Syndrome?  I literally watched that happen with him.

My husband and I feel like hostages.  If we make a wrong move, we might lose contact with our s and gch. I have to give my h credit here - - he does not take her bs, and she seems to respect that.


Our son has to go underground to have a relationship with us.  These emails that we send back and forth are a relief.  A breath of fresh air :D  Even still - - she knows everything we talk about, the things we send in care packages, etc... .Either he volunteers the information, or she drills him until she gets it.  That's what she does to me.  It's scary.  

I have poor boundaries and I know it.  I'm the "lover" puppy dog that just loves everybody, and I can't understand why they wouldn't love me back.      I've never had anyone in my adult life that is so "evil" or "mean" for lack of a better word.  I don't even know where to begin, in terms of creating "boundaries."  I take the phone off the hook, if I think she might call. And I've handled some of her insults well, if they are blatant, by saying "I can't listen to this right now, I'm going to hang up" for instance. But if she sends me a sniper shot, a bullet that comes from out of nowhere,  I'm "dead."  Or fatally wounded.  Someone said, rightfully so, that she has a power over me, that I allow.  I don't want that any more.

I can say that she's worn me out.  She's a lot of work.  And, I'm just tired.   Actually, it feels good not to care so much.

One thing that I worry about, sometimes, is that we encourage our son in his relationship with his wife.  We praise him for supporting her and the kids. I do that in my letters to him.  "What if" in his "heart-of-hearts" he wanted out?  Are we unintentionally making him feel more trapped?  He's never indicated to us that he wants out.  He's so quiet, and unwilling to talk about his feelings or their relationship.  We give him that space, and don't press.  One time my husband asked him, in private, about their relationship and how he was feeling.  Our son just shook his head. So in lieu of all that, I think we should continue to support and encourage.  It's not healthy do dwell on the "what ifs" right?

As I said earlier, I will continue to pray for my s and dil.  The more I pray for her, the more empathy I have for her.  I also pray that I will be able to operate out of a Wise Mind. Will be able to care, and at the same time, learn what it means to have healthy boundaries.

SadieO    

I just wrote my son a short message:

Hey Son,

I'm just wondering how you are doing?  You know, you can always talk to Dad or me about anything.  We are here for you.

Mom

Another thing that helps as I pray for my son & dil, is that I can put them in God's hands.   |iiii I can relax, knowing that He is the perfect parent, and He loves them both as much or more than I do.  I know that this is not a Christian support group, which is fine.  I could have said "higher power," "universe" etc... .  Anyway, as I see it, that is creating a boundary of sorts. 

 :) Yay!  I got an immediate reply from our s.  He's doing really well.  Enjoying his work and training.  Even gets to go on a sight seeing trip and play tourist for a while.  I'm so happy for him.   *)  My fears about his well being have been erased, and my prayers answered.   :)   |iiii

Also, my dil called and talked to my h asking his advice about puppies.  She's happy.  Yay :)  In many ways my h is a healthy father figure for her.  So, it turned out to be a very good day.  

As a side note, even though it was a good conversation that I was listening to, my "gut" reaction was anxiety.  I had to talk to myself, "It's ok self."  There's no reason to be anxious.  whew.

Hi Sadio

I can relate to your feelings of anxiety during conversations, even if they are going well. And the "yay" or "phew" at the end of it when the disaster you were expecting hasn't happened. The flood of relief when the crisis has passed (for now).

My therapist however advised me that my emotions indicated an over investment in other people's lives and quite rightly pointed out that my (roller coaster) emotions relied too heavily on what was going on, particularly in their lives or relationships.

He was right.

He counselled me to aim to be in a place where I was not so invested in a particular outcome as that was unhealthy for me as I couldn't control what my BPDs would do or say. The rush of elation I got when everything turned out OK (that time) would surely be followed by despair when things did not go so well another time. My desire for things to go a certain way in conversations or events just hiked up my feelings of fear and worsened my anxiety.

Trying to get to a place of peace and acceptance no matter how the conversations or events go is so hard. But it is far better for us if we can head in that direction.

Sending you hugs

Dibdob

Hi Sadioo:

Welcome to the board, glad you are reaching out and looking at this.  It is very interesting, because I can relate to you with my dil.  She has never been diagnosed with anything or in therapy for anything, she is just an adopted only child. Our 33 year old son never ever comes over to see us alone with our grandchildren.  They are our only biological grandchildren, our others are all adopted.  Anyway I just don't understand, but have had to work at this for so many years not to loose our son all together. If is wasn't for my husband and oldest other son I woudl be so lost with this dil.

I am sure she is narsasisstic and I don't know what else.  I have tried to detach and give her what she wants within reason.  She too has so much control and power over our son.  I have really tried to understand her and so have the rest of our children.  Most everyone else in the family feels she possess and controls their brother and they never hear from him or feel he is the same since her married her.

My grandchildren are so precious to me, but I have to realize I see them when she decides I see them.  I have asked my son a number of times about seeing us with just the grandchildren and he never answers me or follows through.  I too wonder if he doesn't want too or he married her to get away from us.  He was always very focused and into himself, a gifted child and all.

Anyway I relate and our son wasn't emotionaly abused or physically abused.  He was one of my favorites and there may also have been some emotional emeshment.  His biologiacal Dad died when he was three, but his father now loves him so much and they have been very close in the past. 

I think that Panda is so wise about you letting his seperation from his wife take place and let him get some perspective and then try to talk with him.  Support to you and hugs.   Kelti

It hits me like a ton of bricks.  My dil doesn't like me.  Nor my husband.  We have bent over backwards to please her, to show her love and support.  But, bottom line remains.  Our dil does not like us.

We helped celebrate our third grandson's first birthday.  We were not greeted, or given the time of day by our dil and her mom.  Now that's become "normal."  However . . .

we were not allowed to hold our young grandson!  One minute I see my husband with our gs in his arms.  The next minute, he's gone.  He told me, dil took our gs out of his arms.  

I got to hold him about 30 seconds before my dil came and took my grandson from me.  She whispered in my ear, "You can't have my kids."  What is she talking about?  

I remember her telling me a long time ago, that she doesn't like people to hold her kids.  Why is that?We are these kids' grandparents.

It hurts.

Ripping our grand children from our arms, is the ultimate hurt. And she knows it.  

Do you know how hard it is to keep my mouth shut?

Most likely she perceives your presence in the lives of her husband and her children as threatening.  People w/BPD (pwBPD) have severe abandonment fears... .if my husband loves his parents his love for me is diminished, if my children love their grandparents their love for me is divided.  Anyone that takes their attention from her is perceived as a threat. 

PwBPD usually don't have the skills to understand that love multiplies... .not divides.  Are you able to follow this explanation SadieO?  It 's like when your child was 2 and he became jealous when you held another child.


I can only imagine! :'(

As another person of faith, I know that we are able to hold close to us the one's we love through prayer and positive loving thoughts. 

lbj

Thank you for your reply lbjnltx   


You're quite right.  I see this very clearly.  We have seen it in many different situations. 


Yes, I do understand.  This is an excellent explanation.  I've never heard that a pwBPD, usually doesn't have the skills to understand that love multiplies . . . not divides. 

How, does a DBT therapist help their client to understand?  How do I help my dil to understand?   

BTW  I listen to audible books a lot.  And I have several about BPD on my shelf.  What is the most recognized book on Dialectical Behavioral Therapy? 

Thank you,

SadieO 

Also, lbj;

I appreciate very much what you said,
SadieO

There is something else about inappropriate behavior that needs to be addressed:  My husband bought our 4 year old gs a camp shovel for a birthday gift.  Grampa likes tools, and wants to be a good male role model while our son is deployed.  He thought that he and his grandson could go out and "work" in the yard.  Just joking around, my h, says, "I hope it doesn't look like a weapon."  ha ha  Then things  go out of control. 

My dil grabs the shovel with one hand and our gs' shoulder with the other.  She gets in our gs' face starts screaming at him, "Are you going to hit someone with this?  Are you going to hit someone with this?"  As she repeats the question, her anger quickly intensifies.  Our gs looks scared to death, as you can imagine.  The crowd around her stands stupefied.  That poor child.  How do you stop this rapid-fire escalation from happening?  Fortunately, in this case, someone had the sense to say something neutral that distracted her. 

This is not an isolated case.  Just one more example:

A couple of years ago, my dil takes her one-year-old's birthday cake in one hand, grabs our 4 year old gd by the back of the head, and without warning, smashes the cake in her face! Can you imagine how my gd felt?  Humiliated, confused? My dil flounces off and says, "It's only cake.  It's not like it will scar her for life."  But, it will.  Especially as often as it happens.

Again, friends and family stands there perplexed.  What's the best response?

My dil insists on living at a distance from family.  She stays as isolated as possible. 

Redirecting verbal altercations is one tactic.

The person who should address these kinds of abuses is your son.

If the child is in danger calling CPS is an option.  Comforting the children and validating their feelings is important to minimize (as much as possible) the damage.

Dialectical Behavior Therapy Workbook (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=77109.0) is very good... .

There are other books that incorporate DBT into their coping/learning text... .like Valerie Poor's Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=128777.0) written to Parents and other carers.

DBT therapists practice the skills with their clients, helping them to stay in the moment,  learn to achieve balance between their emotional and reason mind, increase their distress tolerance, etc... .

When we are in wisemind (balanced mind) we are able to think and respond vs feel and react.

lbj

Do I say anything to my son?  That's the question that I posted, and it is the rhetorical question I carry in my mind.  It's difficult to be on the receiving end of my dil's verbal and emotional abuse, and to witness the minds of her children be screwed with.  All of this exacerbated while our son is away, and unaware of what's going on back here. 

No, I won't run to him crying and upset about my dil's ill treatment of my h and I.  However, I want to be educated and "ready" . . . when he's ready . . . to talk.  I've just gone through a six hour workshop entitled, "Treatment of Borderline Personality: Understanding Intense, Impulsive, and Volatile Relationships."  I learned more than ever.  And things that I "knew" became suddenly crystal clear.  I had a lot of "a ha" moments.  I started studying eight years ago, after stumbling upon "Stop Walking on Eggshells."  The more I study and learn, the more empowered I feel.  I have not "arrived" but I'm headed in the right direction.

I keep a journal specifically dedicated to our experiences with our pwBPD, insights and things I've learned.  One of my entries is "How does he (our s) do it?  How does he deal with her constant unending control?  How does he cope with her insanity?  Why does he tolerate her verbal attacks directed at him?  Her emasculating words . . . that he is too stupid to put a crib together, so she has to do it.  That he is a lazy ass and that's why he has a lazy ass job, etc. etc...   He wakes her and she slaps him, because she thinks he is one of her abusers.  How can he stand to watch his children be tortured by her erratic and illogical behavior directed at them?  Does he see the brainwashing? Does he see that their young souls are being damaged?  Has he come to see all of this as "normal"?  How do I plan to respond when he comes to us with his concerns? 

Surely, he can see more clearly during these many months while he's away.  I pray that his eyes will be opened.  I pray that we will all be wise in our actions and reactions.

I will pray for that too Sadie0

Thank you, lbj You're an angel    BTW "The Dialectical Behavior Workbook" and "Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder" are in my wish list.  I have several goals in my "to do" list; order a set of training videos by Marsha Linehan. Also, I have been given a couple of names of DBT therapists "in my area" though they are quite a distance from me. But, down the line, I want to schedule an appointment for myself.  Somewhere in my notes, I have the name a qualified therapist near where my "kids" live.  I'd wager there are more now.  And, if the opportunity arrises, I'll have a name to offer.

I just started listening to an audible book entitled "The Practicing Mind."  So far, it's good.  When our dil was here visiting, and playing her "games" I purposefully practiced "mindfulness" and found that I was more calm, and felt more empowered.    

As you can see, I am a proponent of "bibliotherapy!"  Sometimes, I jokingly call my books, my "counselors."  lol  :)  If I have a question, I just pull one of my "counselors" off the shelf.   :)  |iiii

Knowledge is power!

Knowledge does help.

I just received a phone call from my dil.  We talked for a long time.  It's perplexing because she was so b___y and mean towards us a few weeks ago.  I kept waiting for the hammer to fall, and for her to drop a criticism in for me.  But, she didn't.  I was stealing myself for "the remark", wondering how I was going to handle it this time.  I've had my fill.  No crying and apologizing.  I stayed present, empathic and validating.  When I hung up, I breathed a sigh of tired relief!  

She's under a lot of pressure, handling the kids, etc. by herself.  She misses our son desperately and is afraid for his safety.  Is going to be driving across the country to see her dad.  She is not optimistic, because she has come to grips that her dad is never going to be there for her.  She hopes that he is sober.  He's a very crass, abusive, and unstable person himself.  My dil's "dark side" looks very much like her father's.  I can see where childhood trauma has played a large part in her "Borderline."    Of course I feel for her.

While we are talking, one of the kids tells on the other, "... .said a bad word to me!"  Mom screams a threat at the offender, ":)on't say sh###t or I'll kick your ##s."  I don't know whether to laugh or cringe.  I think to myself, hmmm,":)on't you get it?"   Vulgarity is also a norm.

I'm grateful that the conversation went as well as it did, but as usual, I'm drained.  It takes a tremendous amount of emotional energy!  I am nice to her as I am to anyone else.  I feel guilty saying negative things about her, but I've learned that stuffing the frustration isn't good for my emotional health.   :sign_attn:  kudos fellow sojourners  |iiii

*mod*

This thread has been closed due to reaching its post limit. You are welcome to start a new thread to continue the conversation if you would like... .